Steyn v Johnson?

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:31 pm

South Africa derservedly are the No1 Test ranked team (I know some of you don't give a hoot for rankings) in the world, but for those that do and apparently Lehmann does for his tenure, "this is what i am aiming for". He wants to get Australia back to No1. Which obviously is what every coach would like for their respective Test team, although once again Wink  some fans don't care if their team does or not.

SA have not lost a Test series for five years but have looked to be more fallible recently with a few drawn series, but have somehow staved off defeat. Will though the loss of Kallis's AR abilities after the recent home victory against a weak touring India have an impact on the near future for team SA.

Will Johnson still, after his recent heroics in Aus be able to have such an impact in SA, or did England just make him look like a world beater?

Who in your opinion will get most wickets. Steyn or Johnson?


No smart asses please saying Philander, Harris, Duminy etc...

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Post by kingraf on Tue Feb 11, 2014 5:46 pm

Its actually a rather difficult question. If Johnson bowls well, he'll almost always be Australia's top wicket taker. No disrespect to his attack, but he's quite obviously the kingpin in that attack, and if he's radars on, he can mop up. With Steyn, he's got Philander (and Morkel) to contend with... and even if Steyn gets hot, there's no guarantee that he'll have enough wickets to overtake Johnson. Pushed, I'd say Steyn, but the reality is Johnson's only real limit (in terms of wickets) is how well he bowls.
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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:07 pm

kingraf wrote:Its actually a rather difficult question. If Johnson bowls well, he'll almost always be Australia's top wicket taker. No disrespect to his attack, but he's quite obviously the kingpin in that attack, and if he's radars on, he can mop up. With Steyn, he's got Philander (and Morkel) to contend with... and even if Steyn gets hot, there's no guarantee that he'll have enough wickets to overtake Johnson. Pushed, I'd say Steyn, but the reality is Johnson's only real limit (in terms of wickets) is how well he bowls.



My way of thinking is that England went into the Aussie tour with too much thinking of how Johnson bowled in the previous one dayer's against England and India. There was a marked improvement from him from the Barmy Army song, but was it enough to be afraid? Or were England on a downward slope anyway?

Steyn for me everyday.

Three Tests:

Steyn - 18 wkts.....Johnson - 13 wkts.

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Post by Biltong on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:19 pm

I will always back Steyn against any other bowler, purely because of his consistency.

You just need to look at his past series

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/47492.html?class=1;template=results;type=bowling;view=series

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Post by kingraf on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:24 pm

Make no mistake, Skye, I'd rather have Steyn over MJ any day of the week, but when the question is how many wickets can be taken - well, there are factors to take into consideration. For example, if Australia (1999-2007 vintage) went in against, say Sri Lanka, I'd have Warne and Muralitharan about equal, but Murali is a one man show, and Warne has to fend off Lee and McGrath. If they Warne has a strike rate of 39, and Muralitharan a strike rate of 46... who do you think ends up with the most wickets?
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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:31 pm

Just makes me laugh when Craig McDermott with his hyperbole says Johnson is now the best bowler in the world Very Happy 

Just rubbish pre Test psychology.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:38 pm

kingraf wrote:Make no mistake, Skye, I'd rather have Steyn over MJ any day of the week, but when the question is how many wickets can be taken - well, there are factors to take into consideration. For example, if Australia (1999-2007 vintage) went in against, say Sri Lanka, I'd have Warne and Muralitharan about equal, but Murali is a one man show, and Warne has to fend off Lee and McGrath. If they Warne has  a strike rate of 39, and Muralitharan a strike rate of 46... who do you think ends up with the most wickets?


Good point, but Johnson is no Murali and England looked totally inept against speed this time which still baffles me.. Whereas Steyn has been a class apart for years. The true class act even though he has the one outstanding back-up.

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Post by Guest on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:48 pm

is this a joke thread?

Steyn by an absolute mile...

Steyn's done it week in week out over a long period of time..Johnson has one good series every 2-3 years gets a lot of wickets, and then dissepars for long time..

steyn easily

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Post by Biltong on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:53 pm

I read that piece by McDermott, all I can say is if Johnson flops in this series the hupe about him this past month is going to leave a lot of dissappointment for many Aussie suppporters and pundits.

Let's hope he doesn't disappoint.
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Post by msp83 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:53 pm

Steyn normally, as he's the best bowler in the world at present, one of the best ever and a bowler who cranks his game up for the big match. But so long as Big Vern has any say in the matter, it won't be easy to top that table of wickets, no matter how well Dale bowls!.

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Post by Biltong on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:00 pm

Very true, especially at centurion and Newlands where Philander has been staggeringly good.
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Post by kingraf on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:00 pm

Honestly I can't see
Johnson under performing. Has the red Kookaburra. And South Africans are going to love him in his current guise. It will be like a home match for him, (except probably Newlands)...
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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:06 pm

CF wrote:is this a joke thread?

Steyn by an absolute mile...

Steyn's done it week in week out over a long period of time..Johnson has one good series every 2-3 years gets a lot of wickets, and then dissepars for long time..

steyn easily


Sort of CF, but Johnson looked unplayable at times.

Give me you wicket count, then let's compare at the end.


We know who the better bowler is, but this is just for recent times.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:09 pm

Biltong wrote:I read that piece by McDermott, all I can say is if Johnson flops in this series the hupe about him this past month is going to leave a lot of dissappointment for many Aussie suppporters and pundits.

Let's hope he doesn't disappoint.


You got it laughing 

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:14 pm

Pace and accuracy will always be telling, but at times against India and England he was tanked. Steyn not often.

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Post by Gerry SA on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:43 pm

This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:48 pm

Gerry SA wrote:This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.



As stated and from previous comments, it is solely for this series and Johnsons recent form.


Wicket count for both Steyn and Johnson please? Barring injuries of course.

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Post by KP_fan on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:52 pm

class is permanent form is temporary.

Steyn is class....Johnson is form
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Post by msp83 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:57 pm

Not sure most here have got skye's question. I don't think the question is about comparing Steyn and Johnson as bowlers, Steyn is better than anyone else playing at the moment and he's among the best ever. But who is likely to take more wickets? I think it won't be either of them, it'll be Big Vern, he would take at least 10 at his home ground!!.

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Post by msp83 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:01 pm

Dale could take the pitch out of the equation, just like he did against India in the recent series. After looking for movement that wasn't there for an entire day, he started bowling 10 bloody KPH quicker with deadly accuracy!. Philander is a class bowler anywhere, he is deadly when the ball just does something. I doubt he'll give Steyn too many opportunities to take the pitch out of the equation all that much at Centurion and at his home ground.

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Post by Gerry SA on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:04 pm

skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.



As stated and from previous comments, it is solely for this series and Johnsons recent form.


Wicket count for both Steyn and Johnson please?  Barring injuries of course.
Steyn took 9 wickets in his last Test, against an Indian side (inexperienced in South African conditions) who showed a lot more balls than England's much hyped players did against Johnson...

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:09 pm

Gerry SA wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.



As stated and from previous comments, it is solely for this series and Johnsons recent form.


Wicket count for both Steyn and Johnson please?  Barring injuries of course.
Steyn took 9 wickets in his last Test, against an Indian side (inexperienced in South African conditions) who showed a lot more balls than England's much hyped players did against Johnson...


We know, but your best guess.

Steyn ??? wkts.........Johnson ??? wkts.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:18 pm

msp83 wrote:Not sure most here have got skye's question. I don't think the question is about comparing Steyn and Johnson as bowlers, Steyn is better than anyone else playing at the moment and he's among the best ever. But who is likely to take more wickets? I think it won't be either of them, it'll be Big Vern, he would take at least 10 at his home ground!!.


Spot on msp.

Steyn is obviously better than Johnson.

Can't wait for it to start. Could be Philander who grabs the most, but you are right. Who out of Steyn and Johnson will take the most for this one series.

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Post by msp83 on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:37 pm

Between Steyn and Johnson, I still expect Steyn to come out with more wickets.
Philander 18, Steyn 17 and Johnson 15.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:45 pm

msp83 wrote:Between Steyn and Johnson, I still expect Steyn to come out with more wickets.
Philander 18, Steyn 17 and Johnson 15.




Philander has surprised us all i think. His accuracy being his best weapon.


Thanks for the Steyn/Johnson wkt count, you have got Johnson a bit closer to Steyn than me.  Let's see Smile


But Johnson like most is a confidence bowler, and his last series furious . I may be wrong.

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Post by Gerry SA on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:51 pm

skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.



As stated and from previous comments, it is solely for this series and Johnsons recent form.


Wicket count for both Steyn and Johnson please?  Barring injuries of course.
Steyn took 9 wickets in his last Test, against an Indian side (inexperienced in South African conditions) who showed a lot more balls than England's much hyped players did against Johnson...


We know, but your best guess.

Steyn   ??? wkts.........Johnson   ??? wkts.
Sorry only just clicked what you are asking. 

Steyn 18 wickets. 
Johnson 14 wickets. 

But I'd back the Vern to take the most.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:56 pm

Gerry SA wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Gerry SA wrote:This is like some sort of joke question. 

Steyn's career is like a highlights package.
Whereas Johnson's good series can be counted on one hand. 

Steyn is an all time great. Johnson isn't anywhere close.



As stated and from previous comments, it is solely for this series and Johnsons recent form.


Wicket count for both Steyn and Johnson please?  Barring injuries of course.
Steyn took 9 wickets in his last Test, against an Indian side (inexperienced in South African conditions) who showed a lot more balls than England's much hyped players did against Johnson...


We know, but your best guess.

Steyn   ??? wkts.........Johnson   ??? wkts.
Sorry only just clicked what you are asking. 

Steyn 18 wickets. 
Johnson 14 wickets. 

But I'd back the Vern to take the most.



Not a problem Very Happy  I should have had a different title.


Thanks for the wkt count, nearly identical to my best guess.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:56 pm

I don't think Johnson is Australia's best bowler anyway. If at all there is anyone in the Aus team or indeed in the world for that matter, who's comparable to Dale Steyn, its Ryan Harris.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:00 pm

ShankyCricket wrote:I don't think Johnson is Australia's best bowler anyway. If at all there is anyone in the Aus team or indeed in the world for that matter, who's comparable to Dale Steyn, its Ryan Harris.


Funny you should say that because Harris has just said he strives to be more like Steyn for his consistency.

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Post by ShankyCricket on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:08 pm

If he stays fit for all the 3 Tests, I expect Harris to top the wicket charts for Aus. I think even Siddle will be more effective than MJ, who I have a feeling, will go missing after the Ashes.

And even though Steyn is clearly the better bowler by a mile, hard to look past Big Vern for SA given his record at Centurion and CT.

2-0 to SA.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:13 pm

And will Johnson be kept at the 3-4 over bursts unless against the tail-enders, or is that his ideal amount of overs. Not sure, but i don't think it will be as hot as Aus was.

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Post by skyeman on Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:19 pm

Vern to top the wkt column then by most. Gonna be very, very interesting.

Will Aus be bouyed up or will they revert to pre November.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:24 pm

A sizeable chunk of Johnson's wickets in the recent Ashes series was down to his ability to run through England's late middle order and tail. I suspect South Africa will prove more resilient.

I'll say 16-8 in Steyn's favour.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:50 pm

Steyn for me too

I stated on a previous thread I don't think Johnson will get many wickets this series, don't think he'll be able to get himself as "up" for this series as he was for the Ashes.

Plus he shaved off his tache. Rookie error
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Post by Stella on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:03 am

Think some people are missing the point to this article?

Anyway, I would say Steyn, as Johnson can be a bit hit and miss.
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Post by alfie on Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:35 am

Olly wrote:Steyn for me too

I stated on a previous thread I don't think Johnson will get many wickets this series, don't think he'll be able to get himself as "up" for this series as he was for the Ashes.

Plus he shaved off his tache. Rookie error

Nah...the tache is back...

He might do OK , I think. Confidence is up at the moment and he has done well in SA before. A lot will depend on the other bowlers , whether they can keep the pressure on as they did against England.

Steyn will always get wickets. But I think this will be team bowling from both sides . Not making any guesses as to numbers.

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Post by FerN on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:20 am

I would say Johnson 16, Vern 15, Steyn 15, Harris 14

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:54 am

alfie wrote:
Olly wrote:Steyn for me too

I stated on a previous thread I don't think Johnson will get many wickets this series, don't think he'll be able to get himself as "up" for this series as he was for the Ashes.

Plus he shaved off his tache. Rookie error

Nah...the tache is back...

He might do OK , I think.  Confidence is up at the moment and he has done well in SA before.  A lot will depend on the other bowlers , whether they can keep the pressure on as they did against England.

Steyn will always get wickets.  But I think this will be team bowling from both sides . Not making any guesses as to numbers.

Yes but it isn't the same tache Alfie, this one might not have the same magical powers  Very Happy 
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Post by skyeman on Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:16 pm

Steyn was not feeling too good apparently today but still bagged a pair. He did though look flat later in the day and with zero aggression.

Was Smith afraid of batting first and the threat of Johnson? Why bowl with your best bowler having the squits?

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Post by skyeman on Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:55 pm

Early stages but maybe for both at the moment the numbers may increase.

But MJ looking a wee bit faster and the more aggressive.

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Post by seanmichaels on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:22 pm

Steyn is constistant but at top form Johnson is number 1.

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Post by skyeman on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:39 pm

seanmichaels wrote:Steyn is constistant but at top form Johnson is number 1.



I agree, at this moment in time Johnson looks like the best fast bowler in the world!

Where did this monster come from?

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Post by VTR on Thu Feb 13, 2014 4:45 pm

Johnson is the better of the two on current form. Steyn though will be remembered as a great of the game, whereas Johnson will be alongside the likes of Steve Harmison in the often excellent, sometimes terrible bracket.

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Post by seanmichaels on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:05 pm

skyeman wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Steyn is constistant but at top form Johnson is number 1.



I agree, at this moment in time Johnson looks like the best fast bowler in the world!

Where did this monster come from?

You have to remember that when he came to prominence it was during his first tour to SA. Broke Smith's hand twice. He was raw and obviously took a knock when he came to England but he's found confidence and become injury free. Steyn has never been a 100mph bowler but has better control and swings it late. Johnson is bowling 100 mph and is probably benefitting from the fact that no one has faced a bowler like that since a young Brett Lee or the Rawalpindi Express. As Geoff Boycott said, the current crop of batsmen have grown up struggling with medium pace swing in English conditions or the low slow pitches of the sub continent. You've suddenly got a left armer which is very awkward, bowling quicker than perhaps anyone in history aiming for your throat. It can't be pleasant.

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Post by Guest on Thu Feb 13, 2014 8:10 pm

Steyn can bowled 150kph on demand...but unlike Johnson he dosent have to bowl that pace, because he swings the ball late...that makes him better.

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Post by skyeman on Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:06 pm

CF wrote:Steyn can bowled 150kph on demand...but unlike Johnson he dosent have to bowl that pace, because he swings the ball late...that makes him better.


On demand, not today he was'nt. Johnson was 5 kph quicker. At the moment Johnson is the quicker bowler.

No one can argue with that.

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Post by msp83 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:48 am

Steyn is a 2 paced bowler really. He bowls 135 142 range when there is some help available from the pitch, looking to maximize the movement available. But when he can't get it to move a lot, or when the opposition gets to a good position, he suddenly becomes a bowler in the 145 152 range and takes the pitch out of the equation.
He did exactly this against India recently. After Virat Kohli and Cheteshwar Pujara battered them to all corners, Steyn turned a monster all of a sudden and gave his side the breakthroughs that restored their control.

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Post by guildfordbat on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:14 am

An absolute masterclass of fast bowling from Johnson in South Africa's first innings. Proving my doubts that he wouldn't be able to continue where he left off against England very wrong.

He didn't just bowl incredibly fast (Tymal Mills and his supporters - please note) but with great accuracy and cricketing intelligence. Superb.

It has been commented by others that Johnson is a lesser bowler than Steyn as he doesn't swing the ball. I don't think that actually matters if Johnson is so clearly tickng all the other boxes as above.

Johnson is probably too far down the road with too much inconsistency behind him to ever be regarded as an all time great. However, that is little consolation to South Africa at the moment.

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Post by skyeman on Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:24 am

If he can keep this form up for the next year i can see Australia getting back to number one.
But he has had up and down periods previously so time will tell, although he seems different this time maybe due to the time spent with Lillie.

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Post by alfie on Fri Feb 14, 2014 11:00 am

No question Johnson is a different bowler nowadays. He was always quick ...but a quick short ball badly directed is just wasting the shine ; and he directed a lot of them badly in the old days. Could be lethal on his day ; but his days were fairly random events , and he gave away a lot of runs in between.

The new Johnson has far more control over what he is doing : his run up looks more natural and consistent , and his arm position is significantly higher - not just occasionally. Makes all the difference.
Credit to Lillee ? Whatever , it has changed him. I don't think he will relapse now ; and although at 32 the top pace may not last too many more years he is going to do a lot of damage while it does.

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