South Africa v Australia at Port Elizabeth: 2nd Test

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Post by sirfredperry on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 11:31 am

Can South Africa fight back? Must say I was surprised just how easily Australia won that 1st Test. I reckoned they would be a handful for SA but not that Aus would win about as comprehensively as they did against England.
OK, SA are now Kallis-less and there have been question marks about health/fitness of their fast bowlers. But they are at home and they are, for the time being, the number one side in the world.
AB looked great in that first Test but hardly anyone else did. They are going to have to find a way to deal with Mitchell J. Taking evasive action and then getting out just doesn't cut it (or hook it!). What was unfamiliar, and just a tad shocking, was how SA's fielding disintegrated in that Aus second innings. That's another area they are going to have to improve on.
SA teams far inferior to this present one always had plenty of fight and constantly played above themselves. It's time for the current lot to step up. This could easily be 3-0 to the Australians if SA get off on the wrong foot in Port Elizabeth.

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Post by Biltong on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 11:41 am

Looking at the possible team for tomorrow I am seriously concerned, WTF are we going to do with Morkel out and then having to replace him with another half baked allrounder?

So our bowling line up will be Steyn, Philander, Parnell and (can't remember his name now)

our batting will be short with Duminy so I am seriously peeved off.

why not try Hendricks or Abbott and add de Kock?
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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 12:39 pm

Because Blitong, we're South African, and if there's one thing South Africans don't do, it's fail gloriously taking a chance. We work our way using a set plan - and if said plan isn't working, we fall with a damp squib, never an adventurous thud.
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Post by msp83 on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 2:01 pm

Is Morkel confirmed to be missing? No one gave him a chance for the 2nd test against India after that horrific fall in the first one, but he was back full tilt next game and looked as fresh and fit as he ever did!.

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Post by Gerry SA on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 2:44 pm

Biltong

Morne is playing.

TBH I'd ditch Robbie Peterson.

Play Steyn, Philander, Morne and Parnell.

Pick Elgar at 6 and Duminy at 7.

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Post by Gerry SA on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 2:46 pm

Biltong wrote:Looking at the possible team for tomorrow I am seriously concerned, WTF are we going to do with Morkel out and then having to replace him with another half baked allrounder?

So our bowling line up will be Steyn, Philander, Parnell and (can't remember his name now)

our batting will be short with Duminy so I am seriously peeved off.

why not try Hendricks or Abbott and add de Kock?
You got shares in this kid Biltong???  Yahoo 

Kyle Abbott should be next in line.

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Post by skyeman on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 2:48 pm

Very suprised at you guys not being more optimistic in the thought of SA bouncing back. They have done it on numerous occasions when in adversity and looking dead and buried over the last five years.  Albeit, you had one of the greats around. 

Is MJ having the same effect that he did with England?  You can't see a way past him?

MJ, if SA can neutralise him to some extent, they still have an excellent chance against Australia. I don't think he bowled as well in the second dig, he sprayed it around quite a bit and was a bit fortunate with the great reflex catches by Doolan at short leg, although planned but still fortunate.

He can't keep doing it surely?

If any team can find a way, it is SA.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 2:57 pm

Honestly, Skye I don't think it's sudden complaints. A lot of the guys being nominated for the chop have been the source of similar complaints for a year now.
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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:02 pm

This South African team is hardly the Australian team of the 90s. We have a lot more passengers, we generally got away with it because
1) We have two Opening bowlers who aggregate 10 wickets a match, at a combined average of around 40.
2) We had a an allrounder who may just be the greatest of them all

3) We have possibly the best wicketkeeper batsman of all time.

4) Smith is probably one of the top 10-15 openers of all time.
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Post by sirfredperry on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:21 pm

Smith and his side have been the downfall of three England captains who quit after being rolled over by the Saffers. What are the chances of Clarke doing to Smith what he has done to others?
If it happens - and I'm not really sure it will - there will no doubt be some chuckles coming up from messieurs Hussain, Vaughan and Strauss

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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:24 pm

Smith won't get sacked as captain - ever. The job is his as long as he wants it.
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Post by skyeman on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:27 pm

kingraf wrote:This South African team is hardly the Australian team of the 90s. We have a lot more passengers, we generally got away with it because
1) We have two Opening bowlers who aggregate 10 wickets a match, at a combined average of around 40.
2) We had a an allrounder who may just be the greatest of them all

3) We have possibly the best wicketkeeper batsman of all time.

4) Smith is probably one of the top 10-15 openers of all time.


You still have Steyn, Smith, ABDV and Philander. Three of the best, and one potential.  Aus have Clarke and a six Test freak at the moment. If MJ dips in form at PE, there is still every chance.


Can't wait for it though tomorrow, normally a bowlers paradise and don't buy a ticket for the fifth day.

Gonna be fun!!

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Post by skyeman on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 3:45 pm

Just so glad we will get to see Kallis play again in ODI's for SA, it brings it home to you just what it means to lose a great for your country.

Saying nothing Wink

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Post by gboycottnut1 on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 4:45 pm

With SA struggling badly in the batting department, the Boks should consider playing 8 specialist batsmen, with a final XI as follows :-

1 G Smith
2 A Peterson
3 H Amla
4 Ab De Villiers
5 F du Plessis
6 D Elgar
7 JP Duminy
8 H Kuhn
9 V Philander
10 D Steyn
11 M Morkel

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Post by skyeman on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 5:30 pm

gboycottnut1 wrote:With SA struggling badly in the batting department, the Boks should consider playing 8 specialist batsmen, with a final XI as follows :-

1  G Smith
2  A Peterson
3  H Amla
4  Ab De Villiers
5  F du Plessis
6  D Elgar
7  JP Duminy
8  H Kuhn
9  V Philander
10 D Steyn
11 M Morkel
Going too far i feel, this pitch normally favours the bowlers. And the faster bowlers at that. A good bowling all-rounder should be the call.

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Post by skyeman on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 5:42 pm

Steyn and Philander should be much more of a threat here with the humidity levels being so high and more used to the home conditions.

But will the pressure of MJ and the fact that this SA team are trying to be the first South African side since readmission to win a series against Australia at home, play mind games?

Forget selection issues. Say this is us and we will win.


Lose this, then massive questions will be asked by the SA media and public. Be bold.

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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 9:54 pm

The 'home conditions' and 'high humidity levels' in PE won't worry the Australian bowlers too much either. It's very similar to what we have here.
MJ, Harris and Siddle should thrive on it. Lyon should enjoy playing there too.
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 10:09 pm

Theres very few keepers who have managed to sustain a high average.
ABD is on 57 as a keeper, higher than his average as a specialist batsman....but thats over a fairly short spell so far. You have to question if he can sustain that. The only keeper to have averaged over 50 for a large number of tests was Flower (higher than his average as a batsman), Gilchrist the next highest at 47.
Sangakarra as a keeper only averaged 40 (career average 54). Stewart 35 (career 39). Mccullum 34 (38).

Theres only one other keeper batsman who managed to sustain a high test average with the gloves on. Its likely it will affect him eventually. Not picking de Kock is odd even if abd is coping for now, unless they genuinely believe abd is the better gloveman

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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 10:36 pm

They flashed some figures for ABdV as batsman only (think it was for home matches) and it was something like 70 when Boucher had the gloves.

Gilchrist was batting at 57 for a short time during his career - it then dropped to low 50s and eventually settled on 47 at the time of his retirement.

Flower's Test batting average was flattered by his record against India (94 in 9 matches), Bangladesh (79 in 4), SA (70 in 5) and WI (65 in 2). However, against England (33 in 4) and Australia (14 in 1) his average drops considerably.

So I think this argument of "world's best keeper-batsman" is a relatively fragile one. Gilchrist was a far, far superior Test keeper-batsman considering where he got his runs as opposed to Flower. He averaged v NZ (77 in 11) and Pak (68 in 9)... and mid-high 40s v the stronger opposition of England, SL and SA.

Anyway, I digress. Currently, SA probably cannot afford to select a specialist wicket-keeper and bat AB up the order. They need to find another pure batsman for that. He'll have to do both for the time being and run the risk of picking up another injury.

It's a difficult dilemma for SA but I don't believe now is the time to make too many changes to their line-up. They will probably have to wait until after this series.
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Post by Gerry SA on Wed 19 Feb 2014, 11:07 pm

Quinton de Kock has been added to the squad as cover for Alviro Petersen, who's suffering with a viral infection. 

If de Kock debuts, it would probably mean we'll got in with 7 batsmen. As Elgar would probably have to open and de Kock slots it at 6.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 6:59 am

Linebreaker wrote:They flashed some figures for ABdV as batsman only (think it was for home matches) and it was something like 70 when Boucher had the gloves.

Gilchrist was batting at 57 for a short time during his career - it then dropped to low 50s and eventually settled on 47 at the time of his retirement.

Flower's Test batting average was flattered by his record against India (94 in 9 matches), Bangladesh (79 in 4), SA (70 in 5) and WI (65 in 2). However, against England (33 in 4) and Australia (14 in 1) his average drops considerably.

So I think this argument of "world's best keeper-batsman" is a relatively fragile one. Gilchrist was a far, far superior Test keeper-batsman considering where he got his runs as opposed to Flower. He averaged v NZ (77 in 11) and Pak (68 in 9)... and mid-high 40s v the stronger opposition of England, SL and SA.

Anyway, I digress. Currently, SA probably cannot afford to select a specialist wicket-keeper and bat AB up the order. They need to find another pure batsman for that. He'll have to do both for the time being and run the risk of picking up another injury.

It's a difficult dilemma for SA but I don't believe now is the time to make too many changes to their line-up. They will probably have to wait until after this series.

Ah the old " his best innings dont count" argument. If youre going to claim Flower got it easy how about him never getting to plunder runs against Zimbabwe and Gilchrist not having to face Warne and MacGrath? Are you honestly arguing that Gilchrist had it harder because he got a lot of his runs against New Zealand?
Anyway that wasnt the point I was trying to make at all ...it was that prior to ABD Flower is the only keeper with a significant number of tests as both to have maintained a higher average than when he was a pure batsman...and that hardly anyone has ever managed to maintain a high average as a keeper.
This did actually end up in the wrong thread, it mustve been the first test debate where people were arguing that many great batsmen had been able to keep and bat successfully ...the evidence doesnt support that. Bairstow of course has managed to keep his batting just as bad whilst keeping as it was whilst not keeping.
Its putting a lot on ABD to expect him to be a senior batsman and Keeper.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 7:22 am

He only scored 28 runs against Australia in 2 innings. Rest assured he would not have been averaging in the 50s against Oz as you would like to have seen him do.

As for that old argument: "oh... but he never faced Warne and McGrath" - it would have been unusual to have seen them bowl to Gllchrist considering they were all on the same mighty team.

However there was an Aus v Aus A ODI match in 1994 where they pitted our own players against each other.
Warne (3/40) and McGrath (4/43) v Ponting (42), Hayden (45), Lehmann (4), Martyn (37), Langer (1). Lehmann threw his wicket away that day...
Not a bad B, in mean... A side. They only lost by 6 runs.  

What were we talking about again?

Oh yes. There's no argument about ABdV having a fabulous batting record whilst being keeper as well.

Nice to see you biting so early again, Pete.  Wink 
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The pre-match episode of Inside Cricket is about to begin. That should be fine listening!

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Post by kingraf on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 7:34 am

Flower was a great batsman, but for pure destruction, they have never come near Gilly. 17 Test Tons batting near the tail is ridiculous
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Post by kingraf on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 7:40 am

rumours abound that Quinton de Kock will be making his Test Cricket bow today. I'm gonna message him congratulations...
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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 7:44 am

kingraf wrote:rumours abound that Quinton de Kock will be making his Test Cricket bow today. I'm gonna message him congratulations...

Wish him well from me too.  Very Happy 
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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:07 am

SA have won the toss and have elected to bat.
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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:35 am

Alviro Petersen is out ill, Ryan McLaren was already ruled out injured, and Robin Peterson was dropped as he was turning heads in a bar yesterday rather than trying to get the cricket ball do something of the pitch.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:38 am

Quinton de Kock is debuting for South Africa in tests. Hope he'll have a wonderful career ahead of him and that he would make an impression in his first test itself.
Dean Elgar is opening along with Smith, an Wayne Parnell is in for McLaren.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:39 am

Seems Philander has some niggles and there was confusion about his place in the side at the time of the toss. After a bit of a drama it was eventually confirmed that he is indeed playing.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:45 am

Johnson not cranking it up really in that first over, (mind you, he was still bowling quick), didn't go pass 144 KPH mark.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:46 am

Dean Elgar off the mark against Australia.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:48 am

That also probably helped remove the idea (from Smith's mind) of bowling him first after winning the toss.
The physios can work on his niggle instead. Good call.

It doesn't look all that easy out there for Smith and Elgar but they are doing well so far.
A tough contest going on right now.
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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:53 am

Johnson doesn't take Smith out, but Harris does. Out LBW, and SA are 10-1.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:56 am

Elgar runs a single, but like the earlier one, its a leg-by. He's yet to score a test run against Australia.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 8:58 am

Hashim Amla given out LBW by umpire Kumar Dharmasena and after contemplating a review, Amla eventually decided against it, and rightly so. South Africa in early trouble at 11-2.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 9:14 am

Elgar has done it eventually, he's off the mark against Australia, took him 20 balls in this innings

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 9:18 am

Nathan Lyon into the attack, as early as the 10th over.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 9:21 am

Yeah, it's part of the short spell rotation policy. It also shows a lot of faith in Lyon's abilities.
The balance of the bowling seems spot on at the moment.
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Post by Biltong on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 9:50 am

we have 40 runs on the board.  Yahoo 
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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 10:23 am

Warner already on to bowl... ooh, the intimidation!  Smile 
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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 10:26 am

A much needed 50 partnership between Elgar and du Plessis. But their job is nowhere near done.

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Post by alfie on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 10:30 am

Rough start for SA with two very good batsmen pinned leg before so early. More swing than vicious bounce this morning but still Harris and Johnson dangerous...was looking as if it could be a bit of a rout but Elgar and Du Plessis have battled away pretty well.
Lyon has probably bowled more than he expected before lunch...which comes at 63/2

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:16 am

Lyon continues after lunch.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:38 am

Both Elgar and du Plessis playing some attacking shots against Lyon, both have hit a 6 each after the resumption. South Africa 93-2.

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Post by msp83 on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:38 am

Mitch J is back.

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Post by skyeman on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:43 am

Turgid pitch. Not much happening and these two looking comfortable but MJ back on now although even he is not looking to be the threat he has been recently.

SA 94/2.

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Post by VTR on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:51 am

skyeman wrote:Turgid pitch. Not much happening and these two looking comfortable but MJ back on now although even he is not looking to be the threat he has been recently.

SA 94/2.

Is this the end of his purple patch I wonder. Should we expect his first delivery of the next Test to go straight to second slip?


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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 11:57 am

VTR wrote:
skyeman wrote:Turgid pitch. Not much happening and these two looking comfortable but MJ back on now although even he is not looking to be the threat he has been recently.

SA 94/2.

Is this the end of his purple patch I wonder. Should we expect his first delivery of the next Test to go straight to second slip?


Could be.
Thought I heard him say a few overs ago "I'm buggered...". Anyone else pick that up?
I think he was referring to the affect the breeze was having on him.
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Post by VTR on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 12:09 pm

Well its got to end somewhere I suppose, he can't keep taking his wickets at an average of 11 or whatever it is.

Would hope though that he is still decent and the radar doesn't go off again as he has a rare talent which is good to see in the game.

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Post by skyeman on Thu 20 Feb 2014, 12:20 pm

Lyon breaks the partnership. Soft wkt after drinks.

Add another quick one and 130/4 looks bleak again. But ABDV in now

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