West Indies v England 1st ODI at North Sound

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Post by skyeman on Fri 28 Feb 2014, 12:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

A couple of new faces today with Moeen Ali and Michael Lumb handed caps.

A feel of a ODI/T20 combo with Bangladesh in mind.

England wanted to try and change their formulaic style of recent times. Let's see how far they are willing to go.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:02 pm

Or maybe not?

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:02 pm

errr.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:07 pm

Not looking good is it? ridiculous selection and poor execution even then. Arguably the worst 50 over side england have ever assembled, T20 warm up or not this is a not unexpected shambles.

Giles fortunately is making it very difficult for the ECB to give him the full job.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:14 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Not looking good is it? ridiculous selection and poor execution even then. Arguably the worst 50 over side england have ever assembled, T20 warm up or not this is a not unexpected shambles.

Giles fortunately is making it very difficult for the ECB to give him the full job.

Don't think you can really blame the coach for batsmen getting out.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:18 pm

I never doubted you England.

And it's no surprise that a T20 side is struggling with 50 over batting.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:20 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Not looking good is it? ridiculous selection and poor execution even then. Arguably the worst 50 over side england have ever assembled, T20 warm up or not this is a not unexpected shambles.

Giles fortunately is making it very difficult for the ECB to give him the full job.

Don't think you can really blame the coach for batsmen getting out.

Well its the coaches job to teach them how to bat, to set the tone of the camp and motivate them to excel, to set the tactics and approach, and to select the team and batting order.

So he has to share some of the blame!

As I said, ridiculous selection and poor execution.

Yes maybe we shouldnt judge Giles on results, but we are allowed to judge him on picking poor players and failing to get anywhere near the best from the side even then.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:25 pm

So who would you have picked?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 7:41 pm

My nose.

C'mon you cant honestly be suggesting that this was in anyway anything that resembled even a serious side for a T20 game let alone a 50 over match?

Experimental/developmental or not its still embarrassing.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 8:35 pm

Hold up here, England are about to win.

No idea how. Hurrah!

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 8:35 pm

Has Ravi Bopara just played a match winning innings?  Shocked 

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 8:39 pm

to be fair I fancied Bops in that situation, he's done it before when there's no real pressure to score quickly in a chase and it's just about putting partnerships together. It's when he's chasing the boundaries (as in the first game) that he struggles a bit more.

Broad rode his luck but toughed it out and played Narine, who was the main threat, well. In the end, defending 160 is really tough, especially against a deep batting side, as it only takes a couple of decent (40+) partnerships to get them home.

Wright has to go though, looks hopelessly out of his depth at n°3 in the last three games I've watched him bat (vs Ireland and these two).

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Post by JDizzle on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 8:44 pm

To be fair to Wright, there is no way he'd be playing if this was a proper 50 over side and not a T20 side. Whether he should be in the T20 side is another matter. If you can't play good bowling in one format, you can't play good bowling generally (bar a few exceptions).

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 9:03 pm

we may have won that game- but it was no better than the first.

infact i could say it was even worse.

the bowlers did the job again- its just when WI's went t 20 mode last 15 or so they got out rather than stayed in(it really boils down to luck when you just swing the bat).

I dont buy playing wright in this format just as practise for the t20- unless offcourse we drop him based on this dross..

He doesn't average any more in this format than t20 but scores half the rate(same amount of time at the crease approximately).. that is very very unusual for a batsmen and tells us one thing- he is a slogger only- and doesn't need practise at this level where he may have to play the odd decent crickting shot.. Because he cant do it anyway

This could actually make him worse as a result. and as i previously mentioned- this team is experimental- BUT FFS no.3 is still where you play your best shot maker and crickter that can adjust to the situation at hand.. by playing Wright at 3 you gift WI a pressure advantage as they are guaranteed two quick wickets(1 after the first) - which makes roots job even harder.

I am still so impressed with Root- He keeps on having to act like the senior batter.. Yet he isn't, and the whole England team seems to piling unnecessary pressure on him

Ravi is a very decent player in the shorter formats.. he handled this one very well, but sadly as well as he handled this game he was just as bad in reverse in the last- waiting till the last over to swing his bat in an impossible position.

now that root has also proved to be a part time option with the bowling- this must be time to get rid of Wright at all levels, and play root in all levels instead.





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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 9:55 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:My nose.

C'mon you cant honestly be suggesting that this was in anyway anything that resembled even a serious side for a T20 game let alone a 50 over match?

Experimental/developmental or not its still embarrassing.

Broad, Bresnan, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Tredwell, Bopara are all regulars in the ODI team, so we're talking 4 players, two of whom are regulars at t/20 and yet it's not a 'serious side'

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:04 pm

Whats even worse with Wright is that his T20 average isnt even good.
Now hes not being used as a bowler at all its just plain embarrassing to have him in the side.
Scores of 0,1,8,0,9 this year. 2 scores in double figures from his last 10 innings for England. He has scored in the double figures in a ODI for 3 years

I dont really care that England won this, what bothers me is that players who should only be fringe/form candidates for the T20 side are getting picked for 50 over matches just because Giles has some odd idea that if he picks stupid sides and they lose he wont get the blame.

Or indeed that these 50 over games never should have been in the calender in the first place. Half the ODI side is resting after the overlong ashes tour, the other half with the lions and the err other half bailing out the losers from the T20 squad.

Stupid game, stupid side, stupid result. Its embarrassing for England (even with their form over the last 6 months) to put this side out, humiliating for Windies first team to lose to it.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:08 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Whats even worse with Wright is that his T20 average isnt even good.
Now hes not being used as a bowler at all its just plain embarrassing to have him in the side.
Scores of 0,1,8,0,9 this year. 2 scores in double figures from his last 10 innings for England. He has scored in the double figures in a ODI for 3 years

I dont really care that England won this, what bothers me is that players who should only be fringe/form candidates for the T20 side are getting picked for 50 over matches just because Giles has some odd idea that if he picks stupid sides and they lose he wont get the blame.

Or indeed that these 50 over games never should have been in the calender in the first place. Half the ODI side is resting after the overlong ashes tour, the other half with the lions and the err other half bailing out the losers from the T20 squad.

Stupid game, stupid side, stupid result. Its embarrassing for England (even with their form over the last 6 months) to put this side out, humiliating for Windies first team to lose to it.

Luke Wright probably wouldn't be playing if Hales and Morgan were fit.
Again, it's not a 'stupid' side. If Morgan were playing instead of Wright 8 out of the 11 would be regular ODI team members. Are you saying that it would only be a 'real' England side if they were playing the same XI who played against the Aussies?

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:12 pm

Wright shouldn't be in the t20 side anyway- and as PSW points out he would only be in that team for his bowling due to his t20 batting average being very very average- and YET he didn't even bowl!!

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:15 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Wright shouldn't be in the t20 side anyway- and as PSW points out he would only be in that team for his bowling due to his t20 batting average being very very average- and YET he didn't even bowl!!

Probably agree that he shouldn't be in the t/20 team at this moment in time, but his presence in this ODI team doesn't render it stupid or experimental. Especially given that he probably wouldn't be playing but for injury to others.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:19 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:My nose.

C'mon you cant honestly be suggesting that this was in anyway anything that resembled even a serious side for a T20 game let alone a 50 over match?

Experimental/developmental or not its still embarrassing.

Broad, Bresnan, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Tredwell, Bopara are all regulars in the ODI team, so we're talking 4 players, two of whom are regulars at t/20 and yet it's not a 'serious side'

Bresnan shouldnt be, Tredwell only is because theres no choice..hes only been a "regular" when swanns not been available. Broad Root Stokes Buttler all look shattered. Everyones always hated Bopara and if he isnt acting as the player who balances the side with his bowling the case for his inclusion is weak , in this case he was one of 9 bowlers.The others are plain ridiculous selections for a serious ODI team, borderline for T20.
Isntead of looking to get their seamers bowling yorkers england are running scared and bowling 28 overs of spin and 2 medium pace out of 44.

If someone tell mes this was a serious effort develop the ODI side and shape its future then I may have to quit as a fan.


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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:20 pm

but why play him at no 3(where he cant slog 80% of the time) and also not bowl him?

if he needs the practise for the t20 squad why isnt he getting t20 practise?

he cant steady a ship in the anchor role!!


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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:24 pm

just playing root at 3 and wright at 4 would be infintently better for our team..

The only thing i can think is that obviously t20 is a new ball game for almost all of it - therefore why give him an older bowl batting him down the order.l But i cant think of much else.. Unless he really impresses in training. I just dont know..


But the fact is winning breeds winning- having this odd team playing and potentially losing to only an average team isn't really where we need our players to be when confidence breeds confidence

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:29 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:My nose.

C'mon you cant honestly be suggesting that this was in anyway anything that resembled even a serious side for a T20 game let alone a 50 over match?

Experimental/developmental or not its still embarrassing.

Broad, Bresnan, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Tredwell, Bopara are all regulars in the ODI team, so we're talking 4 players, two of whom are regulars at t/20 and yet it's not a 'serious side'

Bresnan shouldnt be, Tredwell only is because theres no choice..hes only been a "regular" when swanns not been available. Broad Root Stokes Buttler all look shattered. Everyones always hated Bopara and if he isnt acting as the player who balances the side with his bowling the case for his inclusion is weak , in this case he was one of 9 bowlers.The others are plain ridiculous selections for a serious ODI team, borderline for T20.
Isntead of looking to get their seamers bowling yorkers england are running scared and bowling 28 overs of spin and 2 medium pace out of 44.

If someone tell mes this was a serious effort develop the ODI side and shape its future then I may have to quit as a fan.


So, in your view, the only way England would have put out a 'serious' team with a view to developing, would have been if they'd picked 11 debutants?
How are Lumb, who scored a century last match, or Parry, who took three wickets in this, 'plain ridiculous selections for an ODI team?' So, basically, the only 'ridiculous' selection is Wright, who isn't in good form, but is only playing due to injury.
As for 'looking to get their seamers bowling yorkers', they looked at the pitch, picked an attack suited for it AND BOWLED THE OPPOSITION OUT FOR 159
Really don't know what you want them to do.

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Post by mystiroakey on Sun 02 Mar 2014, 10:32 pm

well lumb clearly isnt ridiculous- he can play all the shots and seems comfortable.. strange one really. He is supposedly a t20 specialist that cant perform at this level..

If lumb was only put in this team at a much younger age in the same scenario(only in there as t20 warm up)

He would probably have taken an odi spot!


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Post by Guest on Mon 03 Mar 2014, 4:25 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Maybe you should use a bit of common sense.

Wright has played 49 matches for odi's and t20's

he average's 20 in both formats.. but he has a strike rate of 135 in t20's and 80 odd in odi's as you would expect.

All you are doing by playing a man that is so bad at shot selection and only minorly ok at slogging by playing him at this level is stunting his potential at slogging..t he literally has no skills for with a substantial experience level, where he may be forced in to having to try and defend.

If you are going to play wright as practise. tell him to play 20/20 style.. or at the very least play him down the order where his slogging skills(as minor as they are) may be of use!

playing him at 3 or 4 as they did last time is ridiculous. and there is also serious questions marks over him at t20 level, but his bowling isnt that bad at that format. however as stated- you want to play him for practice - dont stick him at no 3!!!

jesus christ!! You clearly know nothing about cricket! Stick to the football part of the site, i'm not going to try and even engage in serious cricket conversation, with someone who has no idea, what they are talking about!

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Post by mystiroakey on Mon 03 Mar 2014, 4:53 pm

^ Raging loon.

If you cant work out the obvious , please stay away from me mate. Because you will only get shown up again.. You cant counter one argument so you just rage like a child-  Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad 

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Post by shivfan on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 8:52 am

Once again, the top four failed to sparkle, and struggled against part-time spinners....

However, good to see Miller getting 2-28 from 10 overs....
 clap 
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 10:26 am

CF wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:Maybe you should use a bit of common sense.

Wright has played 49 matches for odi's and t20's

he average's 20 in both formats.. but he has a strike rate of 135 in t20's and 80 odd in odi's as you would expect.

All you are doing by playing a man that is so bad at shot selection and only minorly ok at slogging by playing him at this level is stunting his potential at slogging..t he literally has no skills for with a substantial experience level, where he may be forced in to having to try and defend.

If you are going to play wright as practise. tell him to play 20/20 style.. or at the very least play him down the order where his slogging skills(as minor as they are) may be of use!

playing him at 3 or 4 as they did last time is ridiculous. and there is also serious questions marks over him at t20 level, but his bowling isnt that bad at that format. however as stated- you want to play him for practice - dont stick him at no 3!!!

jesus christ!! You clearly know nothing about cricket! Stick to the football part of the site, i'm not going to try and even engage in serious cricket conversation, with someone who has no idea, what they are talking about!

Which bit are you objecting to?> The idea that Wright may not be any good at ODI cricket especially as a specialist batsman? The idea that pinch hitters up top havent ever really worked for England?

I do get that England are trying new agressive batting tactics and passive bowling in an attempt to reverse their previously successful but much derided tactics. OK that again is because these games are really being used as a testing ground for the T20 team. And also that the options to pick players are hamstrung by availability.
But that just comes back to how daft these fixtures are. Why are they not playing additional T20 games? instead of trying out T20 tactics and players in a 50 over match?

That they managed to win is a damning indictment on Windies cricket to be frank. That these games are happening at all given the context (lions tour in progress, long senior tour just complete, different format world cup about to happen) is ridiculous.

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Post by Gerry SA on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:06 am

Rather bizarre tactics from Australia. 

Warner and Rogers where slugging the Proteas around at 6+rpo. 

After Rogers ran himself out, Doolan came in at 3 and killed all the momentum. 

Warner had 75 of 57 when Rogers got out. Post Rogers dismissal, Warner's 17 of 54. 

Strange.

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Post by alfie on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:16 am

Indeed. I expected Watson to come in at three.

They should still have ample time to get the desired lead (450 ? ) and polish off SA ; but why mess about ? Doolan picking up easy runs here won't prove much either.

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Post by Pal Joey on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:22 am

Why are you guys always banging on about Australia... even on the WI-England thread?  Whistle
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Post by alfie on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:24 am

Linebreaker wrote:Why are you guys always banging on about Australia... even on the WI-England thread?  Whistle

Yeah I realized too late we were on the wrong thread. I blame Gerry  Smile 

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Post by Pal Joey on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 11:33 am

Gerry can have that affect on you, I know...
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Post by Guest on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 6:59 pm

3rd odi starts tomorrow...we having new thread? Or keeping it all in one?

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Tue 04 Mar 2014, 8:16 pm

Might as well stick with this, I expect more of the same nonsense on the pitch

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:18 pm

WI win the toss and bowl. Samuels in for Edwards for them. England have dropped Wright, unsurprisingly, with Morgan fit again. Stokes to bat at 3 probably.

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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:21 pm

Much stronger looking side with Morgs back.

So (mentally) knackered from watching the Test... but I'll probably catch the tail end of the 2nd innings if it's still going... later this morning.

Good luck fellas!  OK
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Post by shivfan on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:46 pm

West Indies Team
DJ Bravo*, DM Bravo, NO Miller, SP Narine, KOA Powell, D Ramdin†, R Rampaul, DJG Sammy, MN Samuels, LMP Simmons, DR Smith
England Team
MM Ali, RS Bopara, TT Bresnan, SCJ Broad*, JC Buttler†, MJ Lumb, EJG Morgan, SD Parry, JE Root, BA Stokes, JC Tredwell
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 1:53 pm

Good first five overs for England
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 2:00 pm

Well damn
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 2:03 pm

"@GeorgeDobell1: 91-8. That's England's No.3 in ODIs since Trott. And of that 91, 70 came in 1 innings."
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Post by shivfan on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 2:04 pm

Bravo takes two wickets in two balls!
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 2:06 pm

shivfan wrote:Bravo takes two wickets in two balls!
 clap 

I think replacing "takes" with "given" would be apt Wink
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 2:24 pm

Root took a nasty blow on the right thumb, he won't be bowling later
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Post by shivfan on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 3:42 pm

Very Happy 


It's Miller time!
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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 3:43 pm

Olly wrote:Root took a nasty blow on the right thumb, he won't be bowling later

Blimey worse than SA without Steyn. Not sure how we will cope with 3 spinners and 4 seamers :/ Shouldve picked Wright!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 4:11 pm

Buttler is never in a million years out there.

Erasmus is useless
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 4:20 pm

odd decision, correctly overturned. Not sure why commentators are saying it's inconclusive: clearly you can see the gap from the stump camera, and the dual front-on/side-on view also shows that side-on it passes near the bottom of the bat whereas front-on it's near the middle, which means he can't have hit it...

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Post by shivfan on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 4:41 pm

Some curious decisions there, both involving Buttler, and the West Indies seem to be unfortunate in both cases....

Dwayne Bravo given out stumped when the ball seemed to be falling out of Buttler's gloves in the second ODI, and now this.

The WI don't get the benefit of the doubt in these decisions, it seems....
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Post by skyeman on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 4:44 pm

A decent 2nd PP at last for England 36 runs but more importantly, no wkts.

300 should be on.

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Post by skyeman on Wed 05 Mar 2014, 4:47 pm

shivfan wrote:Some curious decisions there, both involving Buttler, and the West Indies seem to be unfortunate in both cases....

Dwayne Bravo given out stumped when the ball seemed to be falling out of Buttler's gloves in the second ODI, and now this.

The WI don't get the benefit of the doubt in these decisions, it seems....

The Bravo stumping i agree but not the Buttler one.

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