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Post by GloriousEmpire on Tue 18 Mar 2014, 10:39 pm

Here's what happened. I'm telling you. Trust me, I'm psychic.

1. There have been TWELVE reported cockpit fires in 777's in the last 6 years.
2. The most recent was an Egypt air flight just twelve months ago
3. In a fire, a well trained pilot will pull all fuses and bring the circuits back one by one.
  A) transponder
  B) ACARS
4. He turned towards the nearest airport. West.
5. Malaysian Military spotted the plane flying back over the peninsula
6. They didn't mention it for several days.
7. Malaysia bought a brand new surface to air missile defense system just three months ago according to the interweb
8. An eye witness saw a burning plane low in the sky
9. Malaysian airlines lost $3B last year and just two weeks ago threatened to declare bankruptcy and lay off massive numbers of staff
10. The pilot may have climbed to 45k to deprive an external fire of oxygen

11. Malaysian airlines and their government sponsor and military are cagey on timings, withholding information and generally shuffling suspiciously.

12. Boeing can't afford another expensive service withdrawal after the Dreamliner debacle.
13. Most of Malaysian airlines fleet is Boeing 777s

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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 5:39 am


So it's not the pilot? But he had a flight simulator? Malaysia air, and indeed the military are no cagier about this then the Americans were about 9-11... which had an official story with plane-sized holes.... Might be onto something with the fire, but if a witness saw it flying close to the ground... where's the wreckage?
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 7:39 am

Suspect Malaysia have been attempting to dispose of the wreckage whilst diverting the international searchers in the wrong direction(s).

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 8:39 am

04.30 Police in the Maldives are today investigating reports that islanders saw a “low-flying jumbo jet” on the day the missing Malaysia Airlines plane vanished.

“The police are looking into the reports in the media saying that a low-flying aeroplane was sighted above Kuda Huvadhoo,” a statement said.

Several alleged sightings of the Boeing 777 have proved to be false alarms and reports of debris at sea have also turned up nothing.

I’ve never seen a jet flying so low over our island before. We’ve seen seaplanes, but I’m sure that this was not one of those. I could even make out the doors on the plane clearly,” the Haveeru website quoted one witness as saying.

Haveeru journalist Farah Ahmed said several witnesses had given similar accounts.

These people first heard a very loud noise from a plane flying unusually low and they came out to see it,” he said


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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 1:46 pm

What? So its all a massive insurance job?  Headscratch 

They better pray China doesn't find out, or Malaysia may just become its newest province...
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 5:25 pm

Yep. Not by design, but as "opportunity" unfolds. Look for the motivations and use Occam's razor to distinguish the simplest path.

Plane accident. Military accident. Need to cover it up. Coincidentally witting corporate partners. Whilst the government dally's on a cover up, corporate agendas align and now they are in too deep to unwind.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 6:07 pm

I honestly don't think we'll ever know about what happened to the plane. Bit like the 9/11 Pentagon plane
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Post by GloriousEmpire on Wed 19 Mar 2014, 10:53 pm

Please. No silly conspiracy theories here.

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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 10:31 am

Well well - nothing ever found despite the malaysian authorities so confident as to pinpoint its exact flight path and it's final descent location.

No investigation released regarding the emergency response - no cargo manifest released, no investigation into the passengers. No information released about the pilots flight simulator.

What about the reports of the eye witness, or pilot who hailed it?

A boeing 777 can just fly for hours of course, without anyone noticing, over one of the most heavily satellite survillanced areas in the planet and then disappear without trace?

No wreckage or black box 12 months on and no official report is published into what happened?

Unbelievable.
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Post by kingraf on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 11:01 am

Think it's a combination of no one really knowing where it is, and several countries not wanting to reveal the extent of their satellite technology
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Post by rodders on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 11:27 am

I suspect its not just their survillence capabilities they are covering up.

It's amazes me that they claim to be so sure of what happened to the plane but yet release no plausible theory of why it happened - i.e. they believe that it turned deliberately and are 100% certain of it's flight path and final end point, sure that it crashed but yet haven't released any evidence of why they believe this.

They either know it was an accident and the suspected cause i.e. dangerous cargo, and aren't saying - or know that it was deliberate, and why.

If the latter then it makes no sense that the plane was deliberately ditched in the Ocean, unless you believe a pilot would hatch such a pointless and eleborate suicide mission, - therefore the plane in all likelyhood was intercepted and destroyed and the wreckage cleared up during the initial wild goose chase.  

Based on the released information, every offically held theory is full of holes - therefore information is clearly being covered up.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 11:54 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:Please. No silly conspiracy theories here.

Mr GloriousEmpire

there is nothing silly about so called conspiracies mate. When it comes to 9-11 the official story IS the conspiracy. No intelligent person who has lived a little and learned will believe the nonsense of the official story. The only people that believe it are COWARDS, RACISTS, LAZY, and TRAITORS.






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Post by trottb on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 12:09 pm

Sounds like you've just described yourself there ONETWAT

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 3:49 pm

kingraf wrote:I honestly don't think we'll ever know about what happened to the plane. Bit like the 9/11 Pentagon plane

Yes the 200 people on AA77 are at this minute sunning themselves on a beach in the Caribbean..


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Post by kingraf on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 4:27 pm

Funny enough Trussy, you asked on a separate thread how it's possible to make 200 people disappear without anybody noticing...

It's a strange old world isn't it?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 30 Jan 2015, 4:39 pm

kingraf wrote:Funny enough Trussy, you asked on a separate thread how it's possible to make 200 people disappear without anybody noticing...

It's a strange old world isn't it?

Maybe I was being sarcastic...........Who knows ?? Rolling Eyes

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Post by kingraf on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 9:35 am

People don't really want to know what they're government is up to. Why would you? The façade is there for a reason. As such, the governments can all pretend that between all those satellites, none caught this plane hurtling off course. And we'll be pretty chuffed to go with it. One of those perfect storms, I guess.
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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 10:27 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Please. No silly conspiracy theories here.

Mr GloriousEmpire

there is nothing silly about so called conspiracies mate. When it comes to 9-11 the official story IS the conspiracy. No intelligent person who has lived a little and learned will believe the nonsense of the official story. The only people that believe it are COWARDS, RACISTS, LAZY, and TRAITORS.

Or you know, the ones that read the stuff posted by actual architects, demolition experts etc etc instead of reading some geezer on a forum spouting he's an expert and he KNOWS the tower wasn't meant to fall like that etc.

The only ones that believe in this idiotic conspiracy are those too afraid too live in the real world. poor little lambs.

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Post by Strongback on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 10:45 am

WTC building 7. Suspect collapse.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 11:33 am

Not if you read the official report by actual architects Strongy, or check the designs to see how it was supposed to collapse if there was irrepairable damage (You know to protect the buildings and people that surround it)

I've linked it all before so not doing it again, but suffice to say I take the word of actual experts over some college geezer or Internet Forumite (after all anyone can lie on the internet Wink

Back on topic, how a plane completely disappears in this day and age is a mystery and hopefully it will come to light eventually. At least I can now say I have an honest reason for being terrified of flying Very Happy

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Post by kingraf on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 12:27 pm

We can't go through this every two months dammit. This thread isn't even about 9/11.

With that said... at least Trussy now knows that it is indeed possible to make 200 people and a plane disappear.
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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 3:53 pm

We can and we will Raffy, it's the unspoken rule off the O.T section.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 5:10 pm

kingraf wrote:We can't go through this every two months dammit. This thread isn't even about 9/11.

With that said... at least Trussy now knows that it is indeed possible to make 200 people and a plane disappear.

Yes by crashing it into a building..

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Post by kingraf on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 5:52 pm

At least you know now there are possible alternatives Very Happy
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 7:27 pm

If you say so....

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 8:11 pm

Derbymanc wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Please. No silly conspiracy theories here.

Mr GloriousEmpire

there is nothing silly about so called conspiracies mate. When it comes to 9-11 the official story IS the conspiracy. No intelligent person who has lived a little and learned will believe the nonsense of the official story. The only people that believe it are COWARDS, RACISTS, LAZY, and TRAITORS.

Or you know, the ones that read the stuff posted by actual architects, demolition experts etc etc instead of reading some geezer on a forum spouting he's an expert and he KNOWS the tower wasn't meant to fall like that etc.

The only ones that believe in this idiotic conspiracy are those too afraid too live in the real world. poor little lambs.



If you are willing to believe that 19 or so rank amatures, novices could pull off such an amazing operation without having any military expertese or flying experience then I am just laughing lol.

Navy SEALS and SAS would have been impressed at how these amazing men could execute such a successful operation. Why are you so convinced? Please explain it to me and everyone then if you really believe......which you don't


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 8:39 pm

Onetwo is right.....Bush decided to kill thousands of his own people, cause billions of damage so he could invade Countries he didn't like..

I mean President tricky couldn't keep a little burglary like Watergate quiet....

But never mind hey..

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 8:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Onetwo is right.....Bush decided to kill thousands of his own people, cause billions of damage so he could invade Countries he didn't like..

I mean President tricky couldn't keep a little burglary like Watergate quiet....

But never mind hey..

Nice try TRUSSY

but I never said WHO was behind it just that there WAS a cover up. A cover up of eviedence, details , information and logic.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 9:47 pm

Aren't you supposed to have an idea who's behind it....If you think it's a conspiracy....

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 31 Jan 2015, 10:24 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Aren't you supposed to have an idea who's behind it....If you think it's a conspiracy....

Whenever there is a cover up there are names and associations.

I look at what happened and think 'who had the means to carry it out AND then cover it up'

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 10:21 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Please. No silly conspiracy theories here.

Mr GloriousEmpire

there is nothing silly about so called conspiracies mate. When it comes to 9-11 the official story IS the conspiracy. No intelligent person who has lived a little and learned will believe the nonsense of the official story. The only people that believe it are COWARDS, RACISTS, LAZY, and TRAITORS.

Or you know, the ones that read the stuff posted by actual architects, demolition experts etc etc instead of reading some geezer on a forum spouting he's an expert and he KNOWS the tower wasn't meant to fall like that etc.

The only ones that believe in this idiotic conspiracy are those too afraid too live in the real world. poor little lambs.

If you are willing to believe that 19 or so rank amatures, novices could pull off such an amazing operation without having any military expertese or flying experience then I am just laughing lol.

Navy SEALS and SAS would have been impressed at how these amazing men could execute such a successful operation. Why are you so convinced? Please explain it to me and everyone then if you really believe......which you don't

The one thing I know with 100 percent conviction is ............................ your a balloon (and I think the board agrees) Your desperate for attetion (Eviidenced by you retirement, I'm back and sorry I've been away threads). I've posted the evidence before by actual experts. You explain WHY it couldn't happen.



if you really believe......which you don't
Oh and this shows absolute desperation as you know you don't really believe it but need someone (anyone other than cranks) to stand with you

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Post by Strongback on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 10:36 am

Isn't there a couple of thousand architects and engineers who have signed a petition questioning the official reports on the failure of the 9/11 buildings.

WTC 1 and 2 I wouldn't have an issue with.  The official collapse mechanism explanation for WTC 7 needs further investigation.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 10:57 am

Can you post me a link Strongy, i'd be interested to see that and the reasons why. (No crappy conspiracy links though)

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Post by kingraf on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 12:49 pm

I've always th coming up with the most plausible explanation for something means just that, you've come up with the most plausible explanation. It should therefore not be stated as a statement of fact.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 12:56 pm

You've confused me there Raf??????

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Post by kingraf on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 1:28 pm

Haha, sorry mate. I'm just saying, just because the most plausible explanation has been given for how something happened, doesn't mean it is the reality. Personally never really had much time for 9/11 conspiracies, there are greater issues in my life... but, even with that, there are a few things which need to be kept in mind.

- If the government want you to believe that guys in overalls, baseball caps and burkas can take over five planes and crash them into national keypoints. Then it stands to reason that this would be a cakewalk for military operations IF they wanted to.

- The argument then becomes, if they planned this, how would it be kept quiet? They couldn't even keep Watergate quiet. Yes that's true... so then who killed Bin Laden? Biggest assassination job in history, and the guys who pulled it off walk to their local shopping centre every day, completely anonymous. When it has to... government has shown no lack of ability in keeping mum.

- Like I said earlier, people by nature believe the best of their government. They have to. The alternative is incomprehensible. Look at Project MKUltra. Despite nearly every file on it being burned, and the surviving ones which were declassified having more classified information than declassified (ie, having more black lines, than words)... Americans are quite happy to believe everything about it has been brought to light.

- Let's not forget that following 9/11 they proceeded to INVADE THE WRONG COUNTRY. It becomes a leap asking one to believe they are indeed this incompetent. Once again though... Americans just went along with it
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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 2:28 pm

Cheers Raf,

I get what your getting and I think 9/11 has been a conveniant excuse for a lot of things that have happened BUT I just can't see the government being involved in it, it would take far too many people to know each little bit (not to mention what would happen afterwards) and nobody to say a word.

You've got to remember that at the time as well security was pretty lacking on most (if not all) flights so it's not a stretch to say it couldn't be planned and pulled off.
There's too much evidence pointing to it being exactly what it is rather than a massive conspiracy.

I think that conspiracy theorists in general just don't want to accept that sometimes really bad crap happens because people can be evil.

Although if your still knocking about Strongy I am interested to see the links and reasons for that petition that you was on about.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:15 pm

Look Dearby

You come to you're own conclusions but we was presented with an 'explanation' which to me and many many others simply was not believable.

Too many questions and a cloud of mystery surround the event way too many but if you are satisfied with the official account then very well.

I can point out many factors or I can ask you to FULLY explain how, a boeing 777 or 747 whatever it was, could fly at tremendous speed 40 FEET fromthe ground and crash into the pentagon without any witnesses, no camera footage, no skid marks, no damage to surrounding area AND almost completely disintergrate into a hole that was smaller then the actual plane itself with all bodies burned to ashes.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:17 pm

I've posted the evidence before OneTwo, just because your too scared to live in the real world don't try and tar us with the same brush.

Numpty.........................................................

Or you know there's loads of pictures on here if you want to see it. etc etc etc

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/index.html

or you've got
http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

as well for wreckage photos.


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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:28 pm

TOOL BIG TIME.

You have NEVER posted images of the plane crashing into the pentagon because there are none numnuts.


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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:32 pm

That's cause it was a flying saucer, constructed by the lobster people of vergon 12, it was crashed to hide the invisible tower that was projecting happy thoughts into everyone globally, unfortunately a weary human going by the moniker OneTwo had discovered this fact and was ready to alert everyone.

Thank God he had his tinfoil hat or we would have been stuck forever.

Unfortunately the world just doesn't appreciate him and he has to try and get his respect on some kind of internet forum which just doesn't seem to be happening causing him to cry tears of desperation and misspell users names in his attempt to just show people the TRUTH.


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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:40 pm

Haha

nonsense from you as usual. Don't worry you don't need to answer the question dooby.

Just go along with what you are spoon fed you lame excuse for a man and let those with intelligence and guts ask the real questions. You are a dummy.

Tell me again how a steel frame building can collapse at free fall speed into its own footprint due to office fires? and bare in mind that it has never happened before that day.

Why don't you run us through how it all happened dooby? No sources just talk of what you know please convince me.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:46 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Haha

nonsense from you as usual. Don't worry you don't need to answer the question dooby.

Just go along with what you are spoon fed you lame excuse for a man and let those with intelligence and guts ask the real questions. You are a dummy.

Tell me again how a steel frame building can collapse at free fall speed into its own footprint due to office fires? and bare in mind that it has never happened before that day.

Why don't you run us through how it all happened dooby? No sources just talk of what you know please convince me.

The problem with you is i'm not sure if you realise I was taking the mick and would quite expect you to start going through photos of the crash site looking for Flying Saucer wreckage and next week stating how your named after the mythical hero.

You don't have the intelligence and guts to ask the real questions, you have the fear of being unable to live in the real world.

Get the blueprints you'll find it's the way the building was designed, plus by describing it as an office fire shows the limited knowledge you have (For info Jet fuel gets a lot hotter than a general office fire,)

Oh and a dooby is slang for a joint I believe, may I just suggest  you might be smoking a tad too much of it.

p.s I've been through this with you before and you just come across as a child having a tantrum cause no-one will agree that the sky is white. So before I get banned or say something that results in the O.T being shut down again i'll stick you on the same list as that other herbert that used to hang around here (CS) before I do, some light reading for you.

http://www.cracked.com/article_20466_5-conspiracy-theories-that-are-shockingly-easy-to-debunk.html
http://www.cracked.com/article_21341_5-ways-every-conspiracy-theory-makes-world-worse.html

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 3:56 pm

Derbymanc wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Haha

nonsense from you as usual. Don't worry you don't need to answer the question dooby.

Just go along with what you are spoon fed you lame excuse for a man and let those with intelligence and guts ask the real questions. You are a dummy.

Tell me again how a steel frame building can collapse at free fall speed into its own footprint due to office fires? and bare in mind that it has never happened before that day.

Why don't you run us through how it all happened dooby? No sources just talk of what you know please convince me.

The problem with you is i'm not sure if you realise I was taking the mick and would quite expect you to start going through photos of the crash site looking for Flying Saucer wreckage and next week stating how your named after the mythical hero.

You don't have the intelligence and guts to ask the real questions, you have the fear of being unable to live in the real world.

Get the blueprints you'll find it's the way the building was designed, plus by describing it as an office fire shows they limited knowledge you have (For info Jet fuel gets a lot hotter than a general office fire,)

Oh and a dooby is slang for a joint I believe, may I just suggest  you might be smoking a tad too much of it.

So the building was designed to crumble in the face of fire ANY fire. You are funny.

Anyway its you're right to believe what you want so goodluck. You can't completely convince me and I can't convince you.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 4:03 pm

Fair Do's OneTwo, check the first article on that and it'll explain why the towers DIDN'T fall at free fall speed (free fall is 9 seconds, tower took about 20.)

Anyway, I fear we'll be having this argument again in a few weeks so might just copy and paste this thread then Wink

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Post by kingraf on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 4:34 pm

Yeah, the building fire was also quite questionable. That Spanish building was alight for hours, then days, then weeks. WtC basically fell in a relative instant. I'm sure there's a reasonably plausible reason for this, but it does warrant suspicion.

The thing a lot of people forget, is that while 9/11 was a more overt threat, and statement. Project MKUltra was bigger than it in every single way. It may seem odd to keep bringing it up, but it's a rather easy counter to the argument that the American government simply doesn't kill it's citizens. Conservative reports have 10 000 killed from that. They really don't have a problem with killing and permanently damaging their own. And back to the ability to keep things quiet debate... to this day the useful information about the project that's been released could fill a postcard stamp. They can keep these things quiet. And they can kill their own citizens with gay abandon. The only real question is whether the rewards were worth the collateral damage.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 4:36 pm

kingraf wrote:Haha, sorry mate. I'm just saying, just because the most plausible explanation has been given for how something happened, doesn't mean it is the reality. Personally never really had much time for 9/11 conspiracies, there are greater issues in my life... but, even with that, there are a few things which need to be kept in mind.

- If the government want you to believe that guys in overalls, baseball caps and burkas can take over five planes and crash them into national keypoints. Then it stands to reason that this would be a cakewalk for military operations IF they wanted to.

- The argument then becomes, if they planned this, how would it be kept quiet? They couldn't even keep Watergate quiet. Yes that's true... so then who killed Bin Laden? Biggest assassination job in history, and the guys who pulled it off walk to their local shopping centre every day, completely anonymous. When it has to... government has shown no lack of ability in keeping mum.

- Like I said earlier, people by nature believe the best of their government. They have to. The alternative is incomprehensible. Look at Project MKUltra. Despite nearly every file on it being burned, and the surviving ones which were declassified having more classified information than declassified (ie, having more black lines,  than words)... Americans are quite happy to believe everything about it has been brought to light.

- Let's not forget that following 9/11 they proceeded to INVADE THE WRONG COUNTRY. It becomes a leap asking one to believe they are indeed this incompetent. Once again though... Americans just went along with it

Military operation b**lsh*t..............No way could you organise an operation that big It would take hundreds to be involved..........Military guy are mostly Men of honor..............No way could you get honest troops who have sworn to uphold America to do something like this ...........It's not a ten man CIA op is it !!

9/11 was too big for a black op............

I'll reiterate Watergate couldn't be kept quiet..........and only a few people were involved in that !!

We are America not South Africa..

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Post by kingraf on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 4:52 pm

So the military band that robbed the bank a few years ago were men of honour then Trussy? Was it an honour helping the Apartheid government catch and kill activists back in the day? An honour to throw the democratic republic of Congo into disarray by colluding with Belgium in the Assassination of Africa's first democratically elected President?

Answer the question: who killed Bin Laden? By all accounts various elements of government were involved, so there must be someone who thought they'd make a pretty penny from this, yes? Why hasn't it come out? Anti-Government activist Michael Moore was asked why he didn't ask more penetrative questions on Norad standing down. His response? "That would be UnAmerican.". Obviously the mainstream media, whether you choose to believe it or not, have a script to go with.

Also, MKUltra killed a lot more Americans than any Apartheid project did South Africans... so yes you aren't South Africa. You're somewhat worse
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 4:57 pm

We are talking about an operation that needs thousands of peopole involved...........and loads of people who say no....

I know you like to think all Americans are scum.............But soldiers are sworn in to defend the constitution and you can't get more unconstitutional than an act of this magnitude ..........We are talking about family men with honor..

Some bad apples everywhere but come on !!!

It's just complete bollox.............

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Post by kingraf on Sun 01 Feb 2015, 5:07 pm

I'll give you another example - At least 30 universities were involved in MKUltra. Countless hospitals and government institutions. By my reckoning that's a couple hundred thousand if not a million people who could have heard through the grapevine that their place of employment/learning is involved in MKUltra... 10 000 points for guessing how many people from universities revealed this to a paper, or magazine or something - hint you won't need to use a single finger to count.

The assumption that something is too big to keep quiet is inherently wrong. The Manhattan Project was kept quiet for nearly a decade, and it employed a few hundred thousand people. MKUltra was exposed, and they still kept every major detail quiet. You underestimate your government, and overestimate people's desire to know the truth.
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