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Post by Trebs on Thu 01 May 2014, 10:10 am

First topic message reminder :

It's the European Parliament Elections on May 22nd, with UKIP hoping to gain the most seats after second place last time out, with Labour and Liberal Democrats looking to hold onto their seats.

But, does anyone care? Only one in three people voted in the last elections, but there seems to be more of a media interest, especially with the TV debates between Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg, which if you haven't seen are worth a watch. Could it be argued that by Labour and Conservatives not showing to the debates, that UKIP and LibDem will gain?

It seems that this year, there will be a higher turnout but will it be a significant amount? UKIP are certainly a more real opposition and will surely gain seats, with the opinion polls showing UKIP are likely to win.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:05 pm

I was undecided, definately anti now though, Rodders convinced me ;-)

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:08 pm

Most of the wifes Scottish born family are in the NO camp, caused no arguments though. Happy to except either way in September.

Just pleased to have been given the referendum from Westminster Wink

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:09 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I was undecided, definately anti now though, Rodders convinced me ;-)

 Laugh 

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:11 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:
An Independant Scotland could cope just as well as the rest of the UK could outside the EU.

Pretty badly then.

Mind you even with the law of diminishing returns one would fancy the chances of a country with 60 odd million people, a permanent member of the UN security council and with trade deals already in place with many other of the worlds largest economies may fair slightly better than a small economy with 5-6 million people and a new currency outside the EU.


We get the oil and whiskey Laugh

And i bet Scotland would still keep sterling, Osborne is bluffing.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:20 pm

You can keep everything as long as you have to pay for your own prescriptions  Yahoo 

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Post by rodders on Fri 16 May 2014, 2:21 pm

skyeman wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:I was undecided, definately anti now though, Rodders convinced me ;-)

 Laugh 

UKIP it is then!
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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:15 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

It's not a minor party policy we are talking about, it is their fundamental goal, their political ideology, their political motivation.

It is a bit like me voting for the BNP in 1 election and then voting for a pro immigration party in the next election.

Pro EU yes.

It is not the parties main goal, not the reason why they are in a majority government. And most definitely not their political motivation.

And the comparion was no more than i would expect.


You obviously can't be that anti-EU considering you are voting for a party who are pro-EU.

It's an oxymoron you voting for the SNP and UKIP. One is pro EU the other is anti-EU: One is Pro UK the other is anti-UK......

I honestly don't think you thought about the consequences of a YES vote in the Scottish referendum and how it would almost certainly guarantee Scotland being a member of the EU, an institution you seem to despise.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:21 pm

skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:
An Independant Scotland could cope just as well as the rest of the UK could outside the EU.

Pretty badly then.

Mind you even with the law of diminishing returns one would fancy the chances of a country with 60 odd million people, a permanent member of the UN security council and with trade deals already in place with many other of the worlds largest economies may fair slightly better than a small economy with 5-6 million people and a new currency outside the EU.


We get the oil and whiskey Laugh

And i bet Scotland would still keep sterling, Osborne is bluffing.

You will be getting the EURO when the SNP sign you up to the EU.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:28 pm

You do realise that the EU have said that it's not an automatic sign up for Scotland?

Read through the posts that explain why Skye's voting that way and and that you can keep spinning it but you'll still be wrong  thumbsup 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:37 pm

Derbymanc wrote:You do realise that the EU have said that it's not an automatic sign up for Scotland?

Read through the posts that explain why Skye's voting that way and and that you can keep spinning it but you'll still be wrong  thumbsup 

I'm not spinning anything. Skye is anti-EU but is voting for a pro-EU party in the SNP.

Not only that but he is also voting YES in the Scottish referendum. A YES vote = an independent Scotland whose government will seek to join the EU whilst a NO vote = a United Kingdom whose government will most probably offer a referendum on leaving the EU.


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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:42 pm

Once again, for the rest of us which other party can he vote for that offers independance for Scotland, if it's none, pick your coat up at the door and don't come back.

I like a good debate if your unwilling to even look at what other people are saying or the actual evidence in front of you, then it's a waste of time.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:43 pm

C_S - Show Skyeman an option where he can vote for a pro-indepedent Scotland and anti-EU party...

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:47 pm

Duty281 wrote:C_S - Show Skyeman an option where he can vote for a pro-indepedent Scotland and anti-EU party...

he can stand as an independent in the GE and he can offer both those options.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:48 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Once again, for the rest of us which other party can he vote for that offers independance for Scotland, if it's none, pick your coat up at the door and don't come back.

I like a good debate if your unwilling to even look at what other people are saying or the actual evidence in front of you, then it's a waste of time.

My point is that he can't be that anti-EU if he is voting for a party who will make his newly independent Scotland the newest member of the EU.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:51 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:
An Independant Scotland could cope just as well as the rest of the UK could outside the EU.

Pretty badly then.

Mind you even with the law of diminishing returns one would fancy the chances of a country with 60 odd million people, a permanent member of the UN security council and with trade deals already in place with many other of the worlds largest economies may fair slightly better than a small economy with 5-6 million people and a new currency outside the EU.


We get the oil and whiskey Laugh

And i bet Scotland would still keep sterling, Osborne is bluffing.

You will be getting the EURO when the SNP sign you up to the EU.

 Laugh Laugh 

That did make me laugh.

Salmond at least said "never" to the Euro currency. EU might demand it, then he would have problems because most of the Scottish people do not want it.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:52 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:C_S - Show Skyeman an option where he can vote for a pro-indepedent Scotland and anti-EU party...

he can stand as an independent in the GE and he can offer both those options.

Is that really a viable option?

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Post by Rowley on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:54 pm

CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:54 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:C_S - Show Skyeman an option where he can vote for a pro-indepedent Scotland and anti-EU party...

he can stand as an independent in the GE and he can offer both those options.

Is that really a viable option?

I was actually going to stand in the 2010 GE. It is very easy actually.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:56 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

It's not a minor party policy we are talking about, it is their fundamental goal, their political ideology, their political motivation.

It is a bit like me voting for the BNP in 1 election and then voting for a pro immigration party in the next election.

Pro EU yes.

It is not the parties main goal, not the reason why they are in a majority government. And most definitely not their political motivation.

And the comparion was no more than i would expect.


You obviously can't be that anti-EU considering you are voting for a party who are pro-EU.

It's an oxymoron you voting for the SNP and UKIP. One is pro EU the other is anti-EU: One is Pro UK the other is anti-UK......

I honestly don't think you thought about the consequences of a YES vote in the Scottish referendum and how it would almost certainly guarantee Scotland being a member of the EU, an institution you seem to despise.


I have of course thought about it,

Despise no, practically every one of my posts as been about the choice of a referendum. I do think we would be better off out, but if the vote was to stay, then i would respect the majorities decision.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:56 pm

Rowley wrote:CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

He can try and justify it all he wants but it doesn't stick with me, especially after he spent days telling the whole world how bad the EU is he then votes for a party who is fighting to be an EU member.

Anyway I will move on from Skye's confusing political views and debate the up coming elections.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:57 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:OK, I don't think we'll be getting any sensible debate from Rodders or C_S any time soon.

No one agrees 100% with a party - unless you're the party leader, I suppose.

It's not a minor party policy we are talking about, it is their fundamental goal, their political ideology, their political motivation.

It is a bit like me voting for the BNP in 1 election and then voting for a pro immigration party in the next election.

Pro EU yes.

It is not the parties main goal, not the reason why they are in a majority government. And most definitely not their political motivation.

And the comparion was no more than i would expect.


You obviously can't be that anti-EU considering you are voting for a party who are pro-EU.

It's an oxymoron you voting for the SNP and UKIP. One is pro EU the other is anti-EU: One is Pro UK the other is anti-UK......

I honestly don't think you thought about the consequences of a YES vote in the Scottish referendum and how it would almost certainly guarantee Scotland being a member of the EU, an institution you seem to despise.


I have of course thought about it,

Despise no, practically every one of my posts as been about the choice of a referendum. I do think we would be better off out, but if the vote was to stay, then i would respect the majorities decision.

Explain why we would be better off out?

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 4:59 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:C_S - Show Skyeman an option where he can vote for a pro-indepedent Scotland and anti-EU party...

he can stand as an independent in the GE and he can offer both those options.



I am off to be an honest politition Run 

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:04 pm

Restoration of sovereignty, full control of the judicial system and border control.

Those are my main three reasons for wanting to leave the European Union, there's plenty of good in the EU, but it is far outweighed by those three negatives alone.

Then there's the fact that the EU is somewhat undemocratic, is economically unstable, is unbalanced with regards to its member states, and appears to be taking us in the direction of the abolition of our individual nation states...towards a United States of Europe, if you will, which is something I would oppose.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:07 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

He can try and justify it all he wants but it doesn't stick with me, especially after he spent days telling the whole world how bad the EU is he then votes for a party who is fighting to be an EU member.

Anyway I will move on from Skye's confusing political views and debate the up coming elections.

Still not sure what is confusing. There are a few things which are important to him, as no party stands on all of those things he has prioritised them.

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Post by Dave. on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:10 pm

Do we still think UKIP are going to top the poll, and if so, has anyone seen any seat estimates? Which should be handy enough to extrapolate from polls due to the electoral system.

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Post by Ent on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:13 pm

Seems counter productive to vote for ukip in mep elections - bet off sending people who actually have an interest in being in the eu to debate and vote on eu issues.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:26 pm

The European Parliament has very little real power, so it isn't really an area of great concern for me.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 16 May 2014, 5:45 pm

Ent wrote:Seems counter productive to vote for ukip in mep elections - bet off sending people who actually have an interest in being in the eu to debate and vote on eu issues.

They must be quite interested If their expenses are anything to go by..

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:01 pm

Labour aren't worried by expenses though, they don't pay any tax....

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:07 pm

At least they don't bite the hand that feeds them..

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:09 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Ent wrote:Seems counter productive to vote for ukip in mep elections - bet off sending people who actually have an interest in being in the eu to debate and vote on eu issues.

They must be quite interested If their expenses are anything to go by..

Ent.

People are voting for UKIP (voters from all parties} because the electorate were promised a referendum and were lied to by the main parties. The GBP have had enough. They are protesting. This is their way of making the Government think about the consequences of the lies.


Soon to be 750 odd MEP.s all getting £250,000 and then the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, the European Council, the European Central Bank, the Court of Justice of the European Union and the European Court of Auditors all getting millions more. They get rich while the EU countries suffer.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:13 pm

Duty281 wrote:The European Parliament has very little real power, so it isn't really an area of great concern for me.


Exactly, They can change zilch, once the Council/Commission have made their minds up.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:21 pm

Dave. wrote:Do we still think UKIP are going to top the poll, and if so, has anyone seen any seat estimates? Which should be handy enough to extrapolate from polls due to the electoral system.

At Christmas, UKIP were aiming to get the 11 MEP's they had upto 20. On a poll today they may get substantially more out of the 73. And i watched daily politics today and the expert said that after the Lib Dem's recent PPB by Clegg, UKIP's rating has further improved.

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Post by Dave. on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:22 pm

This year the Euro parties are nominating their preferred Commission President candidates, mostly Eurocrats.

As for me, probably will give my first preference to the Ulster Unionist, with my 2 going to the Conservative (both members of the AECR). Then transfer down to other parties.

For those who want out, what do you think of the AECR? A quick Google search will lead you to their website.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 6:51 pm

Dave. wrote:This year the Euro parties are nominating their preferred Commission President candidates, mostly Eurocrats.

As for me, probably will give my first preference to the Ulster Unionist, with my 2 going to the Conservative (both members of the AECR). Then transfer down to other parties.

For those who want out, what do you think of the AECR? A quick Google search will lead you to their website.


Only done a quick search, so not really entitled to say much. recently formed. Goes to show why in a recent polls only 11% knew the name of their MEP. Then again, how many will know the name of the Transport Minister Shocked 

Would need to look more really.


A few good principles. The sovereign integrity of the nation state, opposition to EU federalism, Effectivel controlled immigration, an end to waste and excessive bureaucracy and a commitment to greater transparency and probity in the EU institutions and use of EU funds. Not sure why they have DC as the only prime minister though when the group is in several EU countries and he would not be part of it.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 16 May 2014, 7:17 pm

It doesn't help hearing of the expenses that people can claim either. It's one of the most convoluted and ridculous ways that mp's in particular bump their pay.

I'm apparently under the same rules but god help me if i buy a pound sandwich and lose the receipt I could lose my job.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 7:19 pm

One thing i do know though is that this EU election will have an higher vote turnout {43%} than the last EU elections Wink 

I would put my house on it.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:24 pm

Rowley wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

He can try and justify it all he wants but it doesn't stick with me, especially after he spent days telling the whole world how bad the EU is he then votes for a party who is fighting to be an EU member.

Anyway I will move on from Skye's confusing political views and debate the up coming elections.

Still not sure what is confusing. There are a few things which are important to him, as no party stands on all of those things he has prioritised them.

Of course it is confusing, he wants out of the EU so he is votiong for a political party that is fighting tooth and nail to be a member state of the EU...

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:27 pm

UKIP will win the EU elections but the real question is how will they do at the GE in 2015. Will they become the 3rd largest party in the UK?

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Post by Rowley on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:36 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

He can try and justify it all he wants but it doesn't stick with me, especially after he spent days telling the whole world how bad the EU is he then votes for a party who is fighting to be an EU member.

Anyway I will move on from Skye's confusing political views and debate the up coming elections.

Still not sure what is confusing. There are a few things which are important to him, as no party stands on all of those things he has prioritised them.

Of course it is confusing, he wants out of the EU so he is votiong for a political party that is fighting tooth and nail to be a member state of the EU...

He wants an independent Scotland more.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:38 pm

UKIP have got competition in a similar anti-Europe party right at the top of the ballot paper...

I imagine Voters not paying due attention may vote for them instead by mistake..

So I wouldn't give UKIP the victory yet..

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:42 pm

Rowley wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Rowley wrote:CS are you being deliberately obnoxious around this. Duty has explained the position around why skye is voted SNP perfectly lucidly on the previous page. Skyeman has agreed this is an accurate reflection of his position, and even as someone who has not particularly participated or joined the debate, such as myself, the post is perfectly easy to comprehend in terms of both how it is written and the position it expresses.

It is this sort of crap that ends up getting the tempers riled up from people and these threads removed/locked.

He can try and justify it all he wants but it doesn't stick with me, especially after he spent days telling the whole world how bad the EU is he then votes for a party who is fighting to be an EU member.

Anyway I will move on from Skye's confusing political views and debate the up coming elections.

Still not sure what is confusing. There are a few things which are important to him, as no party stands on all of those things he has prioritised them.

Of course it is confusing, he wants out of the EU so he is votiong for a political party that is fighting tooth and nail to be a member state of the EU...

He wants an independent Scotland more.

Then he should not be voting UKIP who are a unionist party.

I know what he wants which is an independent Scotland from the Uk and the EU I just find it funny that if he is pro Scottish independence then why is he voting for a pro UK unionist party in UKIp and if he is anti-EU why is he voting for a pro EU party in SNP. His best bet would be to stand as an independent in the elections, it looks as though he has a market (or a potential market) of Scottish people who want to be independent of the UK and EU and no party who is offering that. You never know he might win his seat.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:43 pm

UKIP are not an anti-Europe party, Truss, they are an anti-EU party.

Please don't confuse the two for they are rather different.

And C_S, it's a protest vote.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:44 pm

Don't be pedantic..

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 8:48 pm

It is enough of a significant difference to move away from being pedantic, Truss.

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Post by JDizzle on Fri 16 May 2014, 9:02 pm

http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2014/05/what-racism-nigel-farage-s-disastrous-interview-lbc

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 9:08 pm

Ah, Nigel Farage bravely riding out the wave of lefty criticism.

The Champion of Old England, as I like to term him, the knight that valiantly rode forth, like a modern day King Arthur, and defeated Nick Clegg.

I still get misty-eyed over it. heart

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Fri 16 May 2014, 9:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:Ah, Nigel Farage bravely riding out the wave of lefty criticism.

The Champion of Old England, as I like to term him, the knight that valiantly rode forth, like a modern day King Arthur, and defeated Nick Clegg.

I still get misty-eyed over it. heart

Farage likes to make a big fuss over immiggrants taking british jobs but when it suits him he is happy to employ immigrants over british people eg a few years ago he hired polish builders to renovate his house instead of British builders (presume because they were cheaper) and he is happy to employ a German woman as his secretary instead of a British person.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 16 May 2014, 9:22 pm

The only thing I enjoy more than that is Cameron routinely tearing apart Miliband at PMQs every week - a warm-up, one supposes, for the 2015 debates.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 16 May 2014, 10:30 pm

Not his best interview but it was one massive hatchet job from O'Brien who just kept on interupting.

O'Brien never really gained anything from it other than getting Farage a bit flustered because of his constant bullet questions from a well rehearsed script.

Onto some appeasement:

Miliband saying his party would not turn its back on voters' concerns regarding immigration/control - unlike the last Labour government.

Boy are they bricking it!

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