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Post by Trebs on Thu 01 May 2014, 10:10 am

First topic message reminder :

It's the European Parliament Elections on May 22nd, with UKIP hoping to gain the most seats after second place last time out, with Labour and Liberal Democrats looking to hold onto their seats.

But, does anyone care? Only one in three people voted in the last elections, but there seems to be more of a media interest, especially with the TV debates between Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg, which if you haven't seen are worth a watch. Could it be argued that by Labour and Conservatives not showing to the debates, that UKIP and LibDem will gain?

It seems that this year, there will be a higher turnout but will it be a significant amount? UKIP are certainly a more real opposition and will surely gain seats, with the opinion polls showing UKIP are likely to win.

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Post by Ent on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:15 am

Hootie hoo

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Post by Ent on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:15 am

Bitches

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 17 May 2014, 1:34 pm

Duty281 wrote:The only thing I enjoy more than that is Cameron routinely tearing apart Miliband at PMQs every week - a warm-up, one supposes, for the 2015 debates.

1. If Cameron was so confident of winning debates he'd not be trying to run away from them.......He isn't very good off script....and he certainly hasn't answered any question at PMQ's for 4 years.........Good at blustering though and shouting down..........Maybe that is winning to you but not to me..

Salmond is screwed when it comes to the detail of what happens If the SNP wins the vote in September and Cameron hasn't the bottle to face him despite having all the aces.......Because he's scared of charisma like he is with Farage.......Because Cameron hasn't got any....

After all it was the debates that cost him a win last time when Clegg blew him and Brown away and the Liberals went up 7 points overnight..

2. As everyone thinks Miliband is crap anyway............The debates can only be good for him !!..............After all when your polling is rock bottom the only way is up..

Don't let your hatred of all things left blind you too much......You over egg the pudding....


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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 1:38 pm

I was only referring to Cameron's superiority over Miliband in a debating scenario.

Clegg's probably got his number, although his position will be severely weakened by his role in the coalition.

Farage would tear them all apart.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:07 pm

How do you define superiority.......

If it's style over substance you're right...

But If you want to give me any examples where he has answered a question or beaten him with the quality of his arguments...Enlighten me.............

If the electorate wanted style........I agree 2015 would be a done deal.....

But it isn't............and in three out of the four respected polls Labour are ahead........

Yougov, Opinion, Ipsos.......Only ICM have Cammy in front......


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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:43 pm

Purely for oratory skills, Salmond has the edge on them all imo. Quick thinking, never gets flustered, witty when needed, great put-downs, brilliant comebacks and always a respectable answer to any question.

And most definitely not saying this because i live in Scotland. Or other Wink 

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:51 pm

Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?


Last edited by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 3:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 17 May 2014, 2:59 pm

SNP want to be part of the EU..

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 3:09 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 5:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..

This is what makes me laugh about the SNP they claim they want Scotland to be independent and to make all of its own laws etc yet they are fighting tooth and nail to be a member of the EU which would result in the EU making laws that Scotlnd will have to follow.

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 5:47 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..

This is what makes me laugh about the SNP they claim they want Scotland to be independent and to make all of its own laws etc yet they are fighting tooth and nail to be a member of the EU which would result in the EU making laws that Scotlnd will have to follow.


Fair enough CS, But can you give me a YES/NO to my question.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:01 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..

This is what makes me laugh about the SNP they claim they want Scotland to be independent and to make all of its own laws etc yet they are fighting tooth and nail to be a member of the EU which would result in the EU making laws that Scotlnd will have to follow.


Fair enough CS, But can you give me a YES/NO to my question.

60 Scottish mps and 2 of the last 3 Prime Ministers have been Scottish.....

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:08 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..

This is what makes me laugh about the SNP they claim they want Scotland to be independent and to make all of its own laws etc yet they are fighting tooth and nail to be a member of the EU which would result in the EU making laws that Scotlnd will have to follow.


Fair enough CS, But can you give me a YES/NO to my question.

60 Scottish mps and 2 of the last 3 Prime Ministers have been Scottish.....

Frig, this is like Question Time. YES or NO.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:10 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..

This is what makes me laugh about the SNP they claim they want Scotland to be independent and to make all of its own laws etc yet they are fighting tooth and nail to be a member of the EU which would result in the EU making laws that Scotlnd will have to follow.


Fair enough CS, But can you give me a YES/NO to my question.

60 Scottish mps and 2 of the last 3 Prime Ministers have been Scottish.....

Frig, this is like Question Time. YES or NO.

I was highlighting your statement was incorrect, England does not rule Scotland it is a joint union as shown by Scotland having 60 mps who vote on the laws and 2 of the last 3 PMs who create the laws everyone votes on.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:12 pm

skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.

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Post by Dave. on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:18 pm

One of the candidates standing for the council was canvassing outside my home home (I work in Belfast during the week).

Didn't have an earthly clue, too much the others are poor. I said to him, well what are you going to do, he couldn't really say anything, said he'd help people if people approached him, to which I said sure I can go to any councillor if I want something done!

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:20 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.


OK, By England/UK.  YES or NO?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:21 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.


OK, By England/UK.  YES or NO?

England does not rule Scotland it is a joint union as shown by Scotland having 60 mps who vote on the laws and 2 of the last 3 PMs who create the laws everyone votes on

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:36 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.


OK, By England/UK.  YES or NO?

England does not rule Scotland it is a joint union as shown by Scotland having 60 mps who vote on the laws and 2 of the last 3 PMs who create the laws everyone votes on

Why won't you answer the question? YES/NO

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:46 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.


OK, By England/UK.  YES or NO?

England does not rule Scotland it is a joint union as shown by Scotland having 60 mps who vote on the laws and 2 of the last 3 PMs who create the laws everyone votes on

Why won't you answer the question? YES/NO

Because you are asking me to give you an answer to a statement that is not true.

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 6:50 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:SNP want to be part of the EU..


Yes, but they don't want to be by England/UK, so i repeat the question.

skyeman wrote:Here is a quick thought to some, are the SNP and those who support them on the YES/NO vote - racists for not wanting to be controlled/dictated to by others?

Your question was that SNP don't want to be dictated to by OTHERS which Trussman highlighted was incorrect as the SNP want to join the EU and that means they will be dictated to by the EU.


OK, By England/UK.  YES or NO?

England does not rule Scotland it is a joint union as shown by Scotland having 60 mps who vote on the laws and 2 of the last 3 PMs who create the laws everyone votes on

Why won't you answer the question? YES/NO

Because you are asking me to give you an answer to a statement that is not true.

Do you want to think about that? The question is quite straight forward. YES/NO

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 17 May 2014, 7:24 pm

Brilliant question skye, dunno why it's difficult to answer but no it's not. If Scotland want to rule themselves then there's no problem, IF the SNP started stating the English are this, that or the other then yes it could be construed as Racism, but personally it's a term bandied about far too much these days and is used by people to state 'i'm losing an argument so your racist'

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 7:34 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Brilliant question skye, dunno why it's difficult to answer but no it's not. If Scotland want to rule themselves then there's no problem, IF the SNP started stating the English are this, that or the other then yes it could be construed as Racism, but personally it's a term bandied about far too much these days and is used by people to state 'i'm losing an argument so your racist'

 thumbsup thumbsup 


Exactly, because if they gave me either answer, i could shoot them down in flames. Which is why i got no answer.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 7:40 pm

skyeman wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Brilliant question skye, dunno why it's difficult to answer but no it's not. If Scotland want to rule themselves then there's no problem, IF the SNP started stating the English are this, that or the other then yes it could be construed as Racism, but personally it's a term bandied about far too much these days and is used by people to state 'i'm losing an argument so your racist'

 thumbsup thumbsup 


Exactly, because if they gave me either answer, i could shoot them down in flames. Which is why i got no answer.

you got no answer because its a false statement, the english do not rule the scots....

Anyway why are you arguing for Scottish independence when you have told everyone you will vote for a pro-UK unionist party next week  Laugh 

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 7:45 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Brilliant question skye, dunno why it's difficult to answer but no it's not. If Scotland want to rule themselves then there's no problem, IF the SNP started stating the English are this, that or the other then yes it could be construed as Racism, but personally it's a term bandied about far too much these days and is used by people to state 'i'm losing an argument so your racist'

 thumbsup thumbsup 


Exactly, because if they gave me either answer, i could shoot them down in flames. Which is why i got no answer.

you got no answer because its a false statement, the english do not rule the scots....

Anyway why are you arguing for Scottish independence when you have told everyone you will vote for a pro-UK unionist party next week  Laugh 

Have you not been warned enough Laugh picard 

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 7:53 pm

If anyone gets the worse deal out of the United Kingdom in terms of governance, then it's England.

The West Lothian question and all that.

Where's our English parliament?

Come on Scotland, get independence and England can go the same way.

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Post by Dave. on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:05 pm

Must admit I'm not a big fan of devolution myself.

Certainly didn't kill the Nationalists stone dead.

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:08 pm

Duty281 wrote:If anyone gets the worse deal out of the United Kingdom in terms of governance, then it's England.

The West Lothian question and all that.

Where's our English parliament?

Come on Scotland, get independence and England can go the same way.


I am extremely proud to be English/British, no finer place on the planet for me. Both {NI, Wales, sorry}can still be great on their own though, we will always have that connection. But if it is a NO vote, i would still be content

I just want the choice on the EU, what is the problem? The majority want the referendum, and they are from all parties. Whatever the outcome, i would still be content.

Just, give us the choice.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:22 pm

skyeman wrote:
Duty281 wrote:If anyone gets the worse deal out of the United Kingdom in terms of governance, then it's England.

The West Lothian question and all that.

Where's our English parliament?

Come on Scotland, get independence and England can go the same way.


I am extremely proud to be English/British, no finer place on the planet for me. Both {NI, Wales, sorry}can still be great on their own though, we will always have that connection. But if it is a NO vote, i would still be content

I just want the choice on the EU, what is the problem? The majority want the referendum, and they are from all parties. Whatever the outcome, i would still be content.

Just, give us the choice.

Why don't you create a poll on here regarding independence and I will email Nigel Farage the result.

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:28 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Duty281 wrote:If anyone gets the worse deal out of the United Kingdom in terms of governance, then it's England.

The West Lothian question and all that.

Where's our English parliament?

Come on Scotland, get independence and England can go the same way.


I am extremely proud to be English/British, no finer place on the planet for me. Both {NI, Wales, sorry}can still be great on their own though, we will always have that connection. But if it is a NO vote, i would still be content

I just want the choice on the EU, what is the problem? The majority want the referendum, and they are from all parties. Whatever the outcome, i would still be content.

Just, give us the choice.

Why don't you create a poll on here regarding independence and I will email Nigel Farage the result.


Why don't you want what the vast majority want? Wink 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:31 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
Duty281 wrote:If anyone gets the worse deal out of the United Kingdom in terms of governance, then it's England.

The West Lothian question and all that.

Where's our English parliament?

Come on Scotland, get independence and England can go the same way.


I am extremely proud to be English/British, no finer place on the planet for me. Both {NI, Wales, sorry}can still be great on their own though, we will always have that connection. But if it is a NO vote, i would still be content

I just want the choice on the EU, what is the problem? The majority want the referendum, and they are from all parties. Whatever the outcome, i would still be content.

Just, give us the choice.

Why don't you create a poll on here regarding independence and I will email Nigel Farage the result.


Why don't you want what the vast majority want? Wink 

Well the Conservatives have promised a referendum if they win the GE next year so surely that should be the referendum, if you want an EU referendum vote Conservative as that is what they are promising

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:32 pm

We'll be out of the European Union by the end of the decade, Skye, be we England and Scotland, or still a United Kingdom.

If the 2017 referendum doesn't deliver, there's the fact that time will steadily erode the strength of the European Union's position, predominantly in an economic sense. The whole sorry lot will come crashing down, in good time.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:37 pm

Duty281 wrote:We'll be out of the European Union by the end of the decade, Skye, be we England and Scotland, or still a United Kingdom.

If the 2017 referendum doesn't deliver, there's the fact that time will steadily erode the strength of the European Union's position, predominantly in an economic sense. The whole sorry lot will come crashing down, in good time.

I hope not I've got a trip to Spain planned Sad

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Post by skyeman on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:43 pm

Duty281 wrote:We'll be out of the European Union by the end of the decade, Skye, be we England and Scotland, or still a United Kingdom.

If the 2017 referendum doesn't deliver, there's the fact that time will steadily erode the strength of the European Union's position, predominantly in an economic sense. The whole sorry lot will come crashing down, in good time.

Hear, hear. We will still love each other no matter what happens. Battles to fought, wars to be won Very Happy 


Off again to be an honest politicion Run  Now, that is an oxymoron, Laugh 

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 8:49 pm

Nick Clegg thinks people who want Britain out of the EU are "unpatriotic". Laugh

What a clueless, spineless, hypocritical, out-of-touch, anti-British, pillock he is. He still trots out the wholly untrue "3 million jobs lost" line every time.

His view of Britain is negative - we can't survive without the EU, our trade would suffer, jobs would be lost, we'd lose our world standing etc.

Farage, by contrast, is much more positive - we can govern ourselves, we can trade well alone, economicaly we'd be fine etc.

It's no surprise Clegg got caned twice, and the Lib Dems are facing electoral disaster over the next year and a bit.

Clegg once asked: "Where would you rather live? Great Britain or Little England?"

I'd rather live in Little England - we might have parliamentary sovereignty then, and we might be in complete control of our judicial system and our borders.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:07 pm

Duty281 wrote:Nick Clegg thinks people who want Britain out of the EU are "unpatriotic". Laugh


Well he gave his reasons why being loss of jobs, loss of world standing and loss of trade, all of which are true. Your arguments seem to solely rely on immigration and that you don't like EU law which is beyond me.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:19 pm

Below are my reasons for leaving the EU, and it's more about the control of our judicial system rather than the fact I don't like EU law (some of which is good).

Duty281 wrote:Restoration of sovereignty, full control of the judicial system and border control.

Those are my main three reasons for wanting to leave the European Union, there's plenty of good in the EU, but it is far outweighed by those three negatives alone.

Then there's the fact that the EU is somewhat undemocratic, is economically unstable, is unbalanced with regards to its member states, and appears to be taking us in the direction of the abolition of our individual nation states...towards a United States of Europe, if you will, which is something I would oppose.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:Below are my reasons for leaving the EU, and it's more about the control of our judicial system rather than the fact I don't like EU law (some of which is good).

Duty281 wrote:Restoration of sovereignty, full control of the judicial system and border control.

Those are my main three reasons for wanting to leave the European Union, there's plenty of good in the EU, but it is far outweighed by those three negatives alone.

Then there's the fact that the EU is somewhat undemocratic, is economically unstable, is unbalanced with regards to its member states, and appears to be taking us in the direction of the abolition of our individual nation states...towards a United States of Europe, if you will, which is something I would oppose.

So basically what I just said, immigration and the fact you don't like EU law.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:23 pm

A bit more to it than that.

Best try reading it first before jumping in.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:A bit more to it than that.

Best try reading it first before jumping in.

It really is just immigration and the fact you don't like EU law. You have tried to sub-divide some things but it boils back down to immigration and the fact you don't like EU law.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:34 pm

I do like EU law, parts of it.

But I don't like the highest court in Britain being European, it is an affront to us as a nation.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sat 17 May 2014, 9:42 pm

Duty281 wrote:I do like EU law, parts of it.

But I don't like the highest court in Britain being European, it is an affront to us as a nation.

I like EU law and the protections it has given to citizens, the disabled and workers and it doesn't matter to me where the laws come from as long as they are good laws. I'm not some nationalistic junkie who is obsessed with laws in the UK only coming from the UK.

We have many international laws here in the UK that are made from organisations outside of the UK. The Kyoto agreement has created laws that the UK must follow regarding climate change. The united Nations has created many treaties to which the UK must follow and also NATO has created laws through treaties which the UK must follow not to mention other international organisations.

Yes the EU is a 'foreign' organisation but just like the UN and NATO and the Ktoto agreement, if the laws it is creating are good then why complain just because it is a French or German person who 'created' the law. When my boss tries to force me to work 70 hours in 1 week I don't care that the Working Time Directive was made by the EU, I just care that the Working Time Directive will protect me and stop me being forced to work 70 hours etc etc

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 18 May 2014, 8:50 am

Do you want to give prisoners the vote, C_S?

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 18 May 2014, 9:48 am

Of course he would, only if they'd vote his way though. CS is completely incapable of seeing something from anyone else's point of view and basically says your racist when you don't agree.

It's very annoying and stifles the debate, I also find it very worrying that he is incapable of reading Skye's explanations, Duties point by point explanations and even the MODS (Rowley's) explanation of it all. It is people like that that stop us being able to have a full debate on the issues and stop us getting all the facts.


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Post by Duty281 on Sun 18 May 2014, 10:11 am

Well I'm merely referring to how when the EU decide to give the prisoners the vote, our elected members of Parliament will be unable to do anything about it as the EU enforces their will onto people who don't necessarily want it.

Or the same with the age of criminal responsibility - I hear the EU want to lift that to 14, which would be disastrous.

Still, we can't do anything about it as a country if it happens...unless we leave the EU and regain our sovereign power.

It's all about control of our judicial system and parliamentary sovereignty. Both of which we don't have under the EU.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 18 May 2014, 10:58 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27459468

About time people started talking about this  Wink 

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Post by skyeman on Sun 18 May 2014, 11:11 am

On a similar note, we can have no say on some of the crazy payouts to prisoners because of the ECHR such as; having to use cell chamber pots, slopping out. Segregation claims which breached article 3 of the ECHR, saying it amounted to ­“inhuman and degrading” interference with prisoners private lifes. - Six figure compensation payouts to prison inmates who were made to go cold turkey. A triple murderer has been awarded £815 after his nasal clippers were broken by prison guards and a carton of juice went missing. The prison officer who lost eight pints of blood after being stabbed by this inmate, said the claim was “laughable”.

What next, they will be able to sue for being left too long in their cells. Shocked

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 18 May 2014, 11:16 am

Derbymanc wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27459468

About time people started talking about this  Wink 

I agree with him entirely. clap

Of course, if Nigel Farage said there was no place for Sharia Law in this country (he's only hinted thus far), which there shouldn't be, he would be branded "racist" and an "Islamophobe".

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Post by skyeman on Sun 18 May 2014, 11:22 am

Derbymanc wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27459468

About time people started talking about this  Wink 


Read that a few hours ago."He also said there was no place for Sharia law in the English legal system." 100% agree.

Funny how, in the last few days LibLabCon are being typical politions and agreeing with a couple of UKIP points.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sun 18 May 2014, 11:27 am

Duty281 wrote:Do you want to give prisoners the vote, C_S?

Yes I do

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