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Post by Trebs on Thu 01 May 2014, 10:10 am

First topic message reminder :

It's the European Parliament Elections on May 22nd, with UKIP hoping to gain the most seats after second place last time out, with Labour and Liberal Democrats looking to hold onto their seats.

But, does anyone care? Only one in three people voted in the last elections, but there seems to be more of a media interest, especially with the TV debates between Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg, which if you haven't seen are worth a watch. Could it be argued that by Labour and Conservatives not showing to the debates, that UKIP and LibDem will gain?

It seems that this year, there will be a higher turnout but will it be a significant amount? UKIP are certainly a more real opposition and will surely gain seats, with the opinion polls showing UKIP are likely to win.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 26 May 2014, 10:13 pm

Cameron has offered a nothing referendum for 2017. He thinks he can fool the electorate with his "great" reforms but this is just more BS. The EU will not give any thing major up. Germany has already warned Cameron over cherry-picking.

We fought two world wars against Germany and now they try to dictate?

Don't these fools realise that if the UK leaves the EU, the rest will fold like a bad poker player.

The undemocratic, elitest, arrogant, corrupt and wasteful EU should be kowtowing after recent results and not dictating.

Remember last year when the French  Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius warned the UK that leaving the EU would be be dangerous for the UK and that France would 'roll out the red carpet' for UK's exit from EU.

Look at them now!

Spain, Italy, France, Greece all want their sovereignty back as well as several others who think that the EU is causing more harm than good.

As others have said "very interesting times"  We will now see just what the Conservatives and Labour are made of and how they will try to quell the uprising.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 26 May 2014, 10:23 pm

Quite agree, Skyeman. The EU has only been good for Germany; other EU member states on the continent have fallen into economic despair, a few into social anarchy.

It won't take long for it to collapse, I agree, after one major member state has left.

And Britain can get her sovereignty back. Regain control of her judicial system, once the greatest in the world. Control her borders.

This little, beautiful, island of ours...she can be free again.

Long live the cause of freedom; long live the noble fight against those that wish to subjugate our land.


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Post by skyeman on Mon 26 May 2014, 10:42 pm

And Merkel today, calling the results "regrettable" What Frak planet is that woman on!

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Post by skyeman on Mon 26 May 2014, 11:15 pm

One more thing. I am so frigging happy that UKIP got an MEP from Scotland Very Happy

My vote was one among many up here.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:26 am

Duty281 wrote:Quite agree, Skyeman. The EU has only been good for Germany; other EU member states on the continent have fallen into economic despair, a few into social anarchy.

Absolute rubbish.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:37 am

Duty281 wrote:And Britain can get her sovereignty back. Regain control of her judicial system, once the greatest in the world. Control her borders.

This little, beautiful, island of ours...she can be free again.

Long live the cause of freedom; long live the noble fight against those that wish to subjugate our land.


Of course. Maybe we should shut the channel tunnel, switch of the gas supplies and all cuddle round stone henge in the dark and sing Jerusalem whilst burning the EU flag.

We can frack our way to civilization and bring back workhouses to sort out youth unemployment. Stick all the pensioners in Wales and rebuild Hadrian's wall to keep the EU loving lefty Scots out.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:38 am

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Quite agree, Skyeman. The EU has only been good for Germany; other EU member states on the continent have fallen into economic despair, a few into social anarchy.

Absolute rubbish.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=15296


Yes what you have linked to there is absolute rubbish, I quite agree.

Many countries in the EU have suffering with regards to their economy, such as Ireland, Portugal, Cyprus and Greece, while in other lands, like Greece, there's widespread protests against the EU, and extreme-right parties, like Golden Dawn, are being voted in to have an element of power.

Much better off out.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:43 am

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:And Britain can get her sovereignty back. Regain control of her judicial system, once the greatest in the world. Control her borders.

This little, beautiful, island of ours...she can be free again.

Long live the cause of freedom; long live the noble fight against those that wish to subjugate our land.


Of course. Maybe we should shut the channel tunnel, switch of the gas supplies and all cuddle round stone henge in the dark and sing Jerusalem whilst burning the EU flag.

We can frack our way to civilization and bring back workhouses to sort out youth unemployment. Stick all the pensioners in Wales and rebuild Hadrian's wall to keep the EU loving lefty Scots out.

Oh bless, do you still not have any real, constructive points to make?

As I've said before, I want a Europe that Britain can trade with, like UKIP and Nigel Farage want as well, but I don't want a European super-state to rule over us; that would be no form of democracy, taking power away from sovereign nation states and moving us closer towards the United States of Europe.

Yes to trade. Yes to good relations.
No to the United States of Europe. No to the European Court of Human Rights.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:49 am

Nasty and unpleasant, is how Tony Blair describes UKIP.

Coming from him, a man who installed racist policies (sorry, not racist, just "positive discrimination") during his time as PM, and put Britain into a pointless, illegal war, of which we are still suffering from, is just plain absurd and hypocritical.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:50 am

Rubbish again these countries have had huge economic benefits from being in the EU. Some of them would be 3rd world countries but for it.

The last few years have been bumpy but not everyone takes their ball and goes home at the first sign of trouble.





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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:56 am

Yes you are quite right, that is more rubbish.

I mean Cyprus and Ireland didn't need bailing out, did they? Countries such as France and Italy aren't stagnating economically, are they?

Oh that's right, they did and they are.

And the fastest growing economy in all of Europe is the United Kingdom's, and they're not in the Euro...funny that.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 10:00 am

Duty281 wrote:As I've said before, I want a Europe that Britain can trade with, like UKIP and Nigel Farage want as well, but I don't want a European super-state to rule over us; that would be no form of democracy, taking power away from sovereign nation states and moving us closer towards the United States of Europe.

Yes to trade. Yes to good relations.
No to the United States of Europe. No to the European Court of Human Rights.

Trade what? Britain is a net importer, which means we are at the weaker end of the trade negotiations. I.E. its us importing the food and energy.

What makes Britain relevant is the city of London as a financial capital within Europe and as an attractive place for FDI as the main English speaking country within the EU.

Pretty soon our sovereignty will be eroded further through the transatlantic trade partnership agreement.

Sorry to burst your bubble duty but the empire is gone. It's the EU or be at the whim of the US/China/Russia .... take your pick....
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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 10:08 am

Duty281 wrote:Yes you are quite right, that is more rubbish.

I mean Cyprus and Ireland didn't need bailing out, did they? Countries such as France and Italy aren't stagnating economically, are they?

Oh that's right, they did and they are.

And the fastest growing economy in all of Europe is the United Kingdom's, and they're not in the Euro...funny that.

And where is that growth coming from Duty?

Are we creating indigenous companies, exporting our way to growth through high skills and engineering or is the growth coming from the financial services in the City of London - artificially low interest rates stimulating borrowing and spending.
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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 10:14 am

I'll go further and say that the Politian's in this country, particularly the Tories but Labour too would sell this country from under your feet duty. Privatise everything and sell it out to wealthy Chinese, Russian and Hong Kong investors.

One of the best sources of protections is the EU commission which prevents huge faceless conglomerates owning everything and keeping a level of accountability and level playing field to enable British businesses a chance to survive.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:55 pm

Rodders, that's bull and you know it. They've got more of a chance with getting away with selling everything off in the EU than out of it.

In the EU they'll explain it away with 'oh well, it's EU rules etc' or some wally in the EU will say we have to take fair bids of everyone.

Out of the EU, there's still a chance of it happening, but the party that does will be held responsible come the next election

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:08 pm

Really? If it wasn't for the EU Rupert Murdoch would have total control of the UKs media and both the conservatives and labour were willing to stand by and let him.

Surprise surprise his new buddy is guess who?
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:16 pm

Yep, what did the EU to stop Murdoch as I don't recall hear or see of them doing anything. Same with astrozenica

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:25 pm

Rodders  Laugh Laugh 

If you think the EU halted Murdoch! He slowed himself down, but his brand has not stopped. Just in a wee depression.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:44 pm

skyeman wrote:Rodders  Laugh Laugh 

If you think the EU halted Murdoch!  He slowed himself down, but his brand has not stopped. Just in a wee depression.

And what did the UK government do? He threatened to stop supporting both Major and Blair if they didn't take the UK out of Europe as he saw the EU competition commission, not OfComm, as the only obstacle to growing newscorp ....
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:46 pm

rodders wrote:Really? If it wasn't for the EU Rupert Murdoch would have total control of the UKs media and both the conservatives and labour were willing to stand by and let him.

Surprise surprise his new buddy is guess who?  
/
What did the EU do though? I don't remember them stepping in at all, in fact I have a vague recollection of them doing nothing.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:54 pm

That is the funny thing. On the internet the Sun has opposed UKIP at every turn yet they are deemed an anti-EU media.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:58 pm

Derbymanc wrote:
rodders wrote:Really? If it wasn't for the EU Rupert Murdoch would have total control of the UKs media and both the conservatives and labour were willing to stand by and let him.

Surprise surprise his new buddy is guess who?  
/
What did the EU do though? I don't remember them stepping in at all, in fact I have a vague recollection of them doing nothing.

Cases involving the competition commission and newscorp.

http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/index.cfm?fuseaction=dsp_result&case_title=NEWS%20CORP

http://www.policyreview.eu/editors-blog-just-where-does-rupert-murdochs-dislike-for-europe-come-from/
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:02 pm

That says the EU did nothing, there is competition law but as the EU never did anything it's pretty meaningless to bring it up.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:12 pm

Derbymanc wrote:That says the EU did nothing, there is competition law but as the EU never did anything it's pretty meaningless to bring it up.

You might want to ask Farrage how he plans to replace this funding for greater Manchester the next time he's canvassing: -
http://www.agma.gov.uk/gmca/european-funding-2014-2020/index.html
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:14 pm

To be perfectly honest, the last time the area I live got that, most of it went on crap for the council and they stuck a couple of nice pots of plants up in the area (lasted less than a week,) The funding will come from the money we no longer have to pay into Europe any more

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:23 pm

Funny how the countries not complaining about the EU are the ones who are getting billions of Euros that they would not of otherwise got. And the countries that helped give it to them are the ones suffering.

Mind you, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Cyprus  and Spain are still complaining Wink 

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:26 am

BBC article with people explaining why they chose to vote UKIP this time:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27584237

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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:29 am

Can anyone tell me if this part is true

'We didn't sign up for a European Union, we signed up for a Common Market for trading goods, not people or laws, and I want out please!'


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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:34 am

skyeman wrote:
Mind you, Greece, Ireland, Portugal, Cyprus  and Spain are still complaining Wink 

No they aren't Ireland voted pro European (Sinn Fein, Greens) and are very much pro EU as are Spain and Portugal. Greece is in a mess of its own making to be frank and are lucky that the EU hasn't turfed them out and left them bankrupt.
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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:40 am

Morning Rodders, your up to scratch on all this stuff, I thought Ireland and Greece in particular had complained about the loads handed out and weren't the EU running terrified if Greece went as there was a few countries queueing up to see how easy to leave it would be?

Also do you know if the quote above is true?

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:41 am

Derbymanc wrote:The funding will come from the money we no longer have to pay into Europe any more

Hardly when the UK government has slashed local government funding.
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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 9:48 am

Derbymanc wrote:Morning Rodders, your up to scratch on all this stuff, I thought Ireland and Greece in particular had complained about the loads handed out and weren't the EU running terrified if Greece went as there was a few countries queueing up to see how easy to leave it would be?

Also do you know if the quote above is true?

Morning derby. Look Ireland and Greece have had a rough ride - and definitely there is animosity towards the bailout and conditions applied by the troika. However Ireland after 4-5 tough years is coming out the other side and is certainly pro Europe. They know what side their bread is buttered on.

Greece is a mess but that can't be totally blamed on Europe. If they'd knuckled down and sucked up the austerity like Ireland they might be closer to the end of the tunnel.

That said I think Europe did make a mess of the financial crisis and some of these smaller nations had to take one for the team to protect the big boys -Italy, France, the UK and even Germany but ultimately I still believe they are all better of in Europe than out.

The UK were right to retain the pound and are right to resist giving more powers to Brussels but they need the EU and single market more than it needs them. In my opinion.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:03 am

Isn't a greater proportion of Eurozone trade with the UK than UK trade is with the Eurozone?

Don't think it's a massive difference, but had a feeling they export more to us than vice-versa and we trade more with the US, for example.

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:12 am

Derbymanc wrote:Can anyone tell me if this part is true

'We didn't sign up for a European Union, we signed up for a Common Market for trading goods, not people or laws, and I want out please!'


No this is not true. The free movement of people was a founding principal or the EU since post WW2.

Since then it has been an on going process to establish via various treaties such as masseracht and Lisbon, which the UK voted on. There is still not total free movement with different stipulations on Economically and non economically active workers.

Contrary to a lot of nonsense in the media the UK is one of the few countries that retains border controls with member states as party of the schengen area.

Just a note that the non-EU countries that are within the EFTA, like Switzerland and Norway don't have border controls with the EU - so yes you are being lied to by UKIP if you believe the UK can have a trade deal with Europe that doesn't involve free movement of people.

The only way for the UK to restrict EU immigration without damaging into economy is to stay with the EU and work with other member states to amend the constitution democratically.
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Post by skyeman on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:17 am

Voted for the Lisbon Treaty. When? NOT by the people of England.

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:18 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Isn't a greater proportion of Eurozone trade with the UK than UK trade is with the Eurozone?

Don't think it's a massive difference, but had a feeling they export more to us than vice-versa and we trade more with the US, for example.

Half of Britain's trade is with the EU more than North and South America and Asia combined. Irish republic is the UKs biggest export market.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/itis/international-trade-in-services/2011/sty-international-trade-in-services.html
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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:20 am

skyeman wrote:Voted for the Lisbon Treaty. When? NOT by the people of England.

The UK you mean? England isn't a sovereign country or EU member. The democratically elected UK representatives were involved in signing the treaty so yes the people did have their say.
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Post by kingraf on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:21 am

Never thought I'd ever see another political thread get to 1000 posts. Inching now.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:22 am

rodders wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Isn't a greater proportion of Eurozone trade with the UK than UK trade is with the Eurozone?

Don't think it's a massive difference, but had a feeling they export more to us than vice-versa and we trade more with the US, for example.

Half of Britain's trade is with the EU more than North and South America and Asia combined. Irish republic is the UKs biggest export market.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/itis/international-trade-in-services/2011/sty-international-trade-in-services.html

Half, fine, that's about what I thought.

My point was I thought the EU (eurozone in particular) had the UK market as a greater than half proportion of all its trade.

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Post by skyeman on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:23 am

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Voted for the Lisbon Treaty. When? NOT by the people of England.

The UK you mean? England isn't a sovereign country or EU member. The democratically elected UK representatives were involved in signing the treaty so yes the people did have their say.


We know full well why it was not put to the vote Wink 

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:32 am

The EU is by far Britain's most important trading partner and easiest major economy to trade with.

Trade with asia and the US is a nightmare by comparison and if anyone thinks the EU is eroding UK sovereignty wait until TTIP gets going:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership
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Post by skyeman on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:40 am

The cry of the Europhiles is that Britain's biggest trading partner is the EU but we import more than we export. We are customers of the EU. They need us more than we need them.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:41 am

rodders wrote:The EU is by far Britain's most important trading partner and easiest major economy to trade with.

Trade with asia and the US is a nightmare by comparison and if anyone thinks the EU is eroding UK sovereignty wait until TTIP gets going:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_Trade_and_Investment_Partnership

Again, that wasn't what I was questioning.

It was re your comment about 'us needing them more than they need us'.

If 50% of UK trade is with the Eurozone, but 60% of Eurozone trade is with the UK, then this refutes your argument/comment.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 28 May 2014, 10:50 am

Surely that points to a symbiotic relationship? China don't have trade anywhere the cards aren't heavily in their favour, or as a local comedian described it, we give them precious minerals, and in return we get an endless supply of cheap plastic.

I do think it's easier for the EU to plug the 60% gap, than it would be for the UK to find 50% without being grabbed by the short and curlies.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 11:17 am

kingraf wrote:I do think it's easier for the EU to plug the 60% gap, than it would be for the UK to find 50% without being grabbed by the short and curlies.

Reasoning??

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 11:59 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingraf wrote:I do think it's easier for the EU to plug the 60% gap, than it would be for the UK to find 50% without being grabbed by the short and curlies.

Reasoning??

60% (have you a source) is the Eurozone's trade - not the EU. If that figure is correct it is spread across a number of countries using the single currency, I'd guess Ireland and Germany are the major ones that trade with the UK with that group.

You are getting confused between the EU and Eurozone and not comparing like for like figures but either way you spin it the UK relies massively on its fellow EU member states for trade, more than every other country put together.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 1:25 pm

rodders wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingraf wrote:I do think it's easier for the EU to plug the 60% gap, than it would be for the UK to find 50% without being grabbed by the short and curlies.

Reasoning??

60% (have you a source) is the Eurozone's trade - not the EU. If that figure is correct it is spread across a number of countries using the single currency, I'd guess Ireland and Germany are the major ones that trade with the UK with that group.

You are getting confused between the EU and Eurozone and not comparing like for like figures but either way you spin it the UK relies massively on its fellow EU member states for trade, more than every other country put together.

1. No, I haven't a source, I thought I was being quite clear that I couldn't remember the actual figures, just that from memory they disputed your hypothesis.

2. You haven't done anything more to prove what you're saying, than I have. Apart from showing that 50% of UK trade was with the EU, the rest is conjecture. I'm not spinning anything. Taken as two blocs, one bases more of it's trade on the other than the other. I'm just trying to decipher which way round it is, something you've not proven, merely postulated.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 28 May 2014, 1:38 pm

There are so many benefits to being in the EU.

There's £30 million worth going in child benefit from Britain to European families who don't necessarily reside in the United Kingdom.*

What a great system this is. And what is our dear leader, the man who holds the same office as Churchill and Thatcher once did, going to do about it? Sod all.

(*As read in page nine of the Times today, not the Sun or the Daily Mail).

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Post by rodders on Wed 28 May 2014, 1:50 pm

Duty281 wrote:There are so many benefits to being in the EU.

There's £30 million worth going in child benefit from Britain to European families who don't necessarily reside in the United Kingdom.*

What a great system this is. And what is our dear leader, the man who holds the same office as Churchill and Thatcher once did, going to do about it? Sod all.

(*As read in page nine of the Times today, not the Sun or the Daily Mail).

What's 30millions as percentage of welfare spending I wonder?.... and considering EU membership add 60billion plus per annum to GDP that's not a bad deal eh?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/94b18486-4318-11e3-8350-00144feabdc0.html#axzz330voTy00

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 28 May 2014, 2:11 pm

And how many nurses or beat bobbies could £30m fund??

Don't try hiding behind meaningless percentages.

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