Sounds Like Pandering

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 22 May 2014, 10:52 am

First topic message reminder :

Sorry but have to have a rant. Now we all heard about BE moaning about the sound of the new cars and so because he wasn't happy time has been wasted getting an F1 team to try to pander to him fitting odd bits onto the car in a bid to improve the sounds. Why? BE brought these changes in so he only has himself to blame for the sound issues. It all seems a lot childish to pander to an 80+-year-old. Leave the teams to develop the car in proper areas and not to pander to BE as the cars are designed to race not for BE's own playthings.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 3:03 pm

A serial liar has no place running a sport - okay if you are a poster on a forum but we are not in charge of a sport. I don't need to read up thanks I have been following F1 since before BE was involved in running F1. And who is embarrassing themselves? It isn't me defending someone who has paid off a judge to terminate a court case.

Yes of course as I said if there were no Bernie in F1 the sport would have continued to evolve. It was already global and had the likes of Ferrari, Williams, McLaren in it long before Bernie came along. No doubt we would have been spared Max Mosley as well, Ecclestone's embarrassing view on the Nazis, Ecclestone referring to women in F1 as should be asked to wear white to resemble white goods (washing machines etc), wanting sprinklers located around circuits, double points, saying he wants more teams in F1 then a year later reduces monies going to new teams and increasing the unlikeliness of new teams coming aboard.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 3:12 pm

GSC wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:Whether it would've happened or not otherwise is conjecture. What is fact is it did happen because of Bernie. Whether you like the man or not, that is undeniable.

No I disagree. It happened because of Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Renault, Tyrrell etc etc and people like Ayrton Senna, Jackie Stewart, Alain Prost, James Hunt, Michael Schumacher etc. They were the big draw and got the fans interested and some were involved long before Bernie took over F1.
So why did Bernie have the opportunity to commercialise F1?

His commercialising was like his only motivation in this world. To make money. He won favour with F1 teams by getting new TV money deal for the teams and levered himself into a position of power and taking control of F1. .
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Post by bogbrush on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 3:25 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
GSC wrote:Whether it would've happened or not otherwise is conjecture. What is fact is it did happen because of Bernie. Whether you like the man or not, that is undeniable.

No I disagree. It happened because of Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Renault, Tyrrell etc etc and people like Ayrton Senna, Jackie Stewart, Alain Prost, James Hunt, Michael Schumacher etc. They were the big draw and got the fans interested and some were involved long before Bernie took over F1.
So why did Bernie have the opportunity to commercialise F1?

His commercialising was like his only motivation in this world. To make money. He won favour with F1 teams by getting new TV money deal for the teams and levered himself into a position of power and taking control of F1. .
Factually wrong.

He got into power by handling their negotiating with the circuits (who used to charge the teams to use them) starting with the British. They actually asked him to do it when they learned he had independently done this for his own team (they were just grease monkeys who couldn't have advanced the commerciality of the sport in a lifetime). The TV rights he picked up later because he saw the potential of non-country biased coverage and nobody else did. They were more or less handed over.

You don't know what you're talking about.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 3:29 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:Well said Caledonian.

Bernie can certainly be credited with turning F1 into the global brand it is today, as well as bringing enormous amounts of money into the sport (whether thats a good or bad thing I suppose depends on your view) but thats really it.

Undoubtedly the teams have benefitted from greater sponsorship, but they do a lot of their own legwork for that, but the fact companies are willing to pay handsomely to have their names on the cars, is at least partly down to Ecclestone.

The fact F1 now reaches pretty much every corner of the globe is also largely down to Bernie.

That said, his primary aim has been to get as much money for his company and by extension, himself. That has always been his sole motivation.

We also have him to thank for jacking up the cost for circuits to host races, (who then have to pass on the costs to the fans) and dropping classic races in favour of some of the more boring (and often poorly attended)Tilkedromes. Not to mention the entry fees teams have to pay in order to compete.

He also plays divide and conquer tactics with the teams and prevents them gaining much (if any) influence over the future of the sport. Hell, even Jean Todt doesn't dare argue with him, so you can forget the FIA countering any of his decrees. Basically it is extremely unhealthy for any one person to wield the amount of power that he does.

It strikes me that Bernie Ecclestone should think about a move into the world of pro wrestling. He would be perfect there. After all, its all about the spectacle and gimmicks...he's good at coming up with those, isn't he? Reckon he could give Vince McMahon a run for his money.

F1 isn't a sport to Bernie...its all about the spectacle (and the MONEY)...its about entertainment (and the MONEY). While its true he was opposed to the new hybrid turbo engines, he's come up with plenty of other barmy schemes...most of which have mercifully been ignored.

Was the double-points thing one of his? If so, perfect example right there, along with the "sprinklers on the tracks" one.

That shows how little he values the essence of the sport.

I wouldn't lay too much praise on Ecclestone on sponsorship or F1 reaching more of the globe down to him. Sport evolves whatever sport it is. Look at football which has evolved in this country since the formation of new league bodies or in Rugby League with newly formed Super League and cricket with Twenty20 etc. Snooker is another that has evolved with time. It would have happened in F1 as well whoever was at the helm and will continue like that in the future as well. These sports thrive because of the material parts of them and not because of someone that runs the sport.

Also viewing figures recently have dipped as have attendances at F1 races so all is not rosy. If you are a F1 fan you have to pay through the teeth to watch the sport now. Also F1 was global long before Bernie was on the scene as we used to have races in Mexico, South Africa and Australia etc in the days before Bernie. The fact the season is longer now means more countries are inevitably going to be visited but this is purely to stuff more money in Bernie's pocket hence teams have voiced concerns about potentially 22 races a season.


Well, I agree F1 would probably have evolved into something similar without Bernie, but he was the guy in the right place, at the right time, as it were, to do the necessary schmoozing and palm-greasing.

As I said before, the increased money via sponsorship and TV rights was probably a good thing, up to a point, but F1 does seem in danger of going the same was as the Premier League, where money becomes the be-all and end-all, to the detriment of the very thing it is supposed to be supporting/improving.

Ecclestone seems to be one of those for whom there is no such thing as "too much money". I guess the dropping attendances may be a sign that his greed and meddling in the technical & regulatory areas is now starting to harm F1.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 6:24 pm

So it is agreed things would have generally panned out the same if Bernie wasn't around so he is no super being by any means or a visionary or saint. I am not doubting he is a very shrewd businessman and it is merely all his hair-brained schemes, insulting remarks, questionable activities and other failings that I so object to. As I said F1 will one day be run by someone other than Bernie and no doubt the sport will carry on. I will leave it at that.
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Post by GSC on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 6:27 pm

1 person finally agrees with you and its agreed apparently. As I say its purely conjecture from someone I deeply suspect has as much expertise as I do in the area.
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Post by bogbrush on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 11:16 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:So it is agreed things would have generally panned out the same if Bernie wasn't around so he is no super being by any means or a visionary or saint. I am not doubting he is a very shrewd businessman and it is merely all his hair-brained schemes, insulting remarks, questionable activities and other failings that I so object to. As I said F1 will one day be run by someone other than Bernie and no doubt the sport will carry on. I will leave it at that.
Given you recently demonstrated on this thread that you have no idea how Bernie acquired his influence, no grasp of the history of how he developed the entity that is F1, I think you're in no position to pronounce judgement on what would have happened.

For all we know the circuits might have retained their dominance and forged a sport based on circuit franchises, with teams just players on their field. Maybe Bernie changed the course of the sport, inverting the relationship. Did you consider that (it's ok, I know the answer to that)?
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 Aug 2014, 11:55 pm

I've said my piece BB. You carry on with your tongue up his backside if you wish. Any further and it will come out of his mouth.  Wink  I will leave you to your love-in.
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Post by bogbrush on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 12:07 am

Yeah, you said your piece. It was wrong throughout, and where facts were testable shown to be so, but don't let that get in the way of your narrative.

It ain't often you get a chance on a forum to show someone they're all wrong on the facts, so thanks for the opportunity!
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 13 Aug 2014, 5:35 am

Sorry but you have proven nothing. And wrong throughout? Really? I said F1 would carry on and certainly survive without BE involved and you agreed so there is one thing, in your opinion, I didn't get wrong. I said BE was dishonest which you as good as admitted by saying everyone lies so that is another thing I was correct with. Also said he was no visionary which I believe you agreed with....shall I go on?
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