Clegg - Facing Liberal grass root revolt !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 9:50 am

75 Local Liberal parties need to formally request a leadership election for one to take place..Word is many of them are discussing it...

Others think whilst Ashdown is supportive of Clegg a rebellion won't happen !

Good idea or bad idea to ditch Clegg so close to GE2015 ???

If a leadership election is called make no mistake Clegg will have to go..

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 12:44 pm

I don't think it will save them from extinction at the GE next year. All of the LDs signed the no tuition fee increase pledge yet as soon as they got into power they all agreed to increase tuition fees.

Nick Clegg may be the leader but all of the other Lib Dem Mps are just as guilty.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 1:10 pm

Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Cameron did this for a while too.

Miliband said a few things but his advisors got it largely right.

As said by me in the past, he is a lose/lose leader of the Lib Dems and i still think that he will not make it to the GE as the leader of the Lib Dems.

He got crushed by Farage in the debates, very weak.

And boy, as he not aged 10 years in the last year!

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Post by Rowley on Tue 27 May 2014, 1:23 pm

I thought Clegg looked like he had aged ridiculously over the last few days. To be honest though I have no sympathy for the man or his current plight. Clegg and the Lib Dems are being taught the lesson that you cannot hold your supporters or the things they hold dear in complete contempt, which he did in his complete capitulation over tuition fees. That a politician needs this pointing out to him in this day and age is staggering.

A good number of Lib Dem supporters are graduates and to them free university education is massively important. To get into bed with a party who fully intended to scrap this is an act of political suicide that is almost staggering in its arrogance/naivety. If he had the best interests of the party at heart he would walk now. Am sorry but if you are at the head of the party during a period when it goes from being a vaguely viable third party to one that cannot even beat the Green party, you are culpable and should fall on your sword.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 1:45 pm

Rowley wrote:I thought Clegg looked like he had aged ridiculously over the last few days. To be honest though I have no sympathy for the man or his current plight. Clegg and the Lib Dems are being taught the lesson that you cannot hold your supporters or the things they hold dear in complete contempt, which he did in his complete capitulation over tuition fees. That a politician needs this pointing out to him in this day and age is staggering.

A good number of Lib Dem supporters are graduates and to them free university education is massively important. To get into bed with a party who fully intended to scrap this is an act of political suicide that is almost staggering in its arrogance/naivety. If he had the best interests of the party at heart he would walk now. Am sorry but if you are at the head of the party during a period when it goes from being a vaguely viable third party to one that cannot even beat the Green party, you are culpable and should fall on your sword.

Agree. what does amaze me is he still got seven % of the vote Rolling Eyes 

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Post by Rowley on Tue 27 May 2014, 1:57 pm

The other issue he has got is he is completely out of step with the prevailing mood in the country re European referendum. If he had any political capital and good will he could stick to his guns and might get a bit of support for maintaining his beliefs and not pandering to populism, however he doesn’t have this, and as he has completely alienated his core support he needs to try and attract new supporters. The only way he can do this is by offering a referendum on Europe, he does this it looks like yet another u turn and is the kind of attempt to jump on a bandwagon even the most moronic of voters are going to see through.

Fail to see how he can limp on currently, he simply has to go. They are getting a shellacking in the next election irrespective of what they do now, damage limitation and ensuring there is still a party after the GE next year has to be the order of the day for them now.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 1:57 pm

Rowley wrote:I thought Clegg looked like he had aged ridiculously over the last few days. To be honest though I have no sympathy for the man or his current plight. Clegg and the Lib Dems are being taught the lesson that you cannot hold your supporters or the things they hold dear in complete contempt, which he did in his complete capitulation over tuition fees. That a politician needs this pointing out to him in this day and age is staggering.

A good number of Lib Dem supporters are graduates and to them free university education is massively important. To get into bed with a party who fully intended to scrap this is an act of political suicide that is almost staggering in its arrogance/naivety. If he had the best interests of the party at heart he would walk now. Am sorry but if you are at the head of the party during a period when it goes from being a vaguely viable third party to one that cannot even beat the Green party, you are culpable and should fall on your sword.

The Lib Dems seemed to be the party for students/graduates because they opposed tuition fees so it amazes me that he would go back on his public promise and triple tuition fees just months after gaining power. It was so obvious the LD would lose all their student/graduate voters.

The Lib dems also went back on their word on VAT rise and welfare reform and council tax reform etc etc


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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:04 pm

skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.
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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:14 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:29 pm

Has to go, but the Lib Dems will still take a battering in 2015 regardless of any change in leader.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:31 pm

The Libs are a Pro EU party....Are you suggesting they change all they hold dear because of a few polls..

They wouldn't even have got 7%..

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:38 pm

skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

It's the role of politicians to provide leadership to the people, have convictions and convince people to follow them not just to tag along with popular opinion to achieve their own political ambitions.

It doesn't matter that the majority voted for ani-eu parties, what matters is that Clegg believes that this is not in the interests of the country and isn't afraid to publically say so.
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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:42 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The Libs are a Pro EU party....Are you suggesting they change all they hold dear because of a few polls..

They wouldn't even have got 7%..


The big three are all Pro EU parties, the other two played it better.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 2:45 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

It's the role of politicians to provide leadership to the people, have convictions and convince people to follow them not just to tag along with popular opinion to achieve their own political ambitions.

It doesn't matter that the majority voted for ani-eu parties, what matters is that Clegg believes that this is not in the interests of the country and isn't afraid to publically say so.  


But that is a plain silly argument. What did he do four years ago?

And thus Miliband and Cameron are spineless. They all play the game but some are better than others and Cleggy is about to be relegated to an hopeful MEP spot in the future.

Back where he started censored 

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:02 pm

They are all spineless. Clegg is less spineless than the other 2 who wouldn't even take a clear stance on Europe or take part in a public debate.

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Post by Guest on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:27 pm

Had this happened a few weeks ago, no doubt Clegg would have been a shoe-in for the job of replacing David Moyes.

Perhaps Clegg should glass someone in a bar (wonder if TRUSS is available seeing as how he likes fighting in pubs)

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:29 pm

Wouldn't be politically correct...

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:34 pm

A referendum is going to be in the pipeline from all three now, i can smell it!

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:37 pm

And well done 606v2 for removing Fourth Lions nasty thread Very Happy 

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:41 pm

Why ??...You don't think Ukip hoovered up a majority of the anti-establishment vote....Protest vote !!!

Polls show Brits want to stay in..

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Why ??...You don't think Ukip hoovered up a majority of the anti-establishment vote....Protest vote !!!

Polls show Brits want to stay in..

I can show you polls where they want out.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:47 pm

The Guardian {left} and the Telegraph {right} have both recently had polls that 52% and 57% respectively would vote OUT.

Why on earth do you think that they do not want to give a referendum?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 3:51 pm

55-45 according to yougov..

Anyway If you are a married Father of two with worries over job security, standard of living, Healthcare access and education standards..

You think Europe is uppermost in the thought on election day ??

General elections are won at home..and they always will be..

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:00 pm

For the next GE YES. Many see the EU as a major cause of the problems. The leaders are seeing that now, as did already millions of Europeans.

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:01 pm

Think you might be a bit shocked at the next one then Truss, people are starting to take a bit more notice now of what the EU is doing and where the money in general is going.

Foreign Aid, EU budget etc is being pushed to the forefront as a lot are seeing problems at home (food banks etc,) and prefer the money staying in the UK, as we're not allowed to talk about foreign aid the EU is going to bear the brunt of it which will be seen at the General Election.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:16 pm

Think that when having to decide on a Con/Lab administration you'll be surprised when UKIP poll 3 - 7 % ...

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:17 pm

Foreign aid has nothing to do with the EU. Nor are food banks which are a result of rising living costs as a result of having a weak pound, increased fuel and food costs due to increased demand by the BRIC countries and production being down due to extreme weather over the last number of years.

Leaving the EU would push up food and energy costs as their would be restrictions and tariffs on importing from Europe if we left and therefore increased the reliance on food banks not less.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:24 pm

We'll see Truss  Hug 

@Rodders - I was using foreign aid etc as an example that the public in general are sick of seeing their money going elsewhere particulalry with the issues we have at home. The EU is seen as something of a leech by some that sucks away at 'our' money.

I have yet to see any proof that leaving the EU would push up any costs except for what I class as scaremongering. If you could show me some it would be appreciated.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:36 pm

If Britain wanted to have free trade with Europe we would have to join the EFTA along with Switzerland and we would be no better off than we are now. We can't have our cake and eat it the way some politicians are deliberately trying to mislead people.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:38 pm

Problem is Rodders is that noone has seen any proof of this and it's an argument that only seems to get trotted out when people see that other people like the idea of leaving the EU, hence why i'd like to see actual proof that leaving the EU would cost me as a member of the public more

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:48 pm

Which is why Cameron and Miliband did not want to debate and Clegg was so emphatically smashed by Farage.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:52 pm

I don't get you? What evidence do you want?

All the information about EU membership is freely available for those that want facts rather than scaremongering .

There is free trade only between EU member states and countries signed up to the EFTA otherwise there are tariffs and restrictions on trade and transactions with European countries.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 4:56 pm

I want the evidence that it's going to cost me more, there is no reason we cannot be signed up to EFTA as a non member of the EU, something you yourself stated.

There is no proof that leaving the EU will cost us more money, in fact logically we should have more money as the country do not have to pay into the EU coffers anymore. From that standpoint I should (and I re-iterate SHOULD) have more money in my pocket.

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Post by rodders on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:05 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I want the evidence that it's going to cost me more, there is no reason we cannot be signed up to EFTA as a non member of the EU, something you yourself stated.

There is no proof that leaving the EU will cost us more money, in fact logically we should have more money as the country do not have to pay into the EU coffers anymore. From that standpoint I should (and I re-iterate SHOULD) have more money in my pocket.




A senior government source said his comments reflected Treasury concern that it would not be in Britain’s economic interests to pull out of Europe. The source added that this view was privately shared by George Osborne.

Even if you could negotiate a free-trade agreement with the rest of [the] EU, you would still have to abide by its regulations and not be in a position to influence them in the future,” the source said. “Sir Nicholas is of the view that while there are aspects of the EU which need to be reformed it would not be in Britain’s long-term economic interests to go it alone. That is a view … shared by the Chancellor.”

The views also reflect those of City institutions who have warned the Treasury that the UK could lose its clout in transatlantic trade and regulatory disputes if it exits the EU.[i]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/exclusive-treasury-to-warn-british-public-of-economic-risks-of-leaving-eu--and-tory-eurosceptics-are-furious-9081481.html

Members of the EFTA still have to sign up to EU regulations. Free trade comes at a cost and if you have seen what some of the issues holding up the Transatlantic trade deal with the US you will realise how important the EU are and how difficult trade deals are with the major economies.
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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:07 pm

For a so-called pro-EU party, the Lib Dems showed remarkably little talent for government - they seem to think coalition means merger, and they merged with the Tories so effectively that means that no-one can now tell them apart.

He must go now.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:09 pm

They back the tories then they don't, when it suits!

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:12 pm

Cheers for that Rodders, I can see why you believe it won't be beneficial for us to leave Europe, personally I don't think it will be as much an issue as we think but only time will tell. The best paragraph of that 'evidence' was

'In TRUTH, nobody knows for sure what the economic consequences would be of Britain leaving the EU. An “objective and impartial” analysis could conclude that it would be detrimental to Britain’s interest to pull out. But it would be equally possible for an “objective and impartial” analysis to conclude that the dangers of quitting have been overestimated and that Britain could benefit from going it alone.'

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:14 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Cheers for that Rodders, I can see why you believe it won't be beneficial for us to leave Europe, personally I don't think it will be as much an issue as we think but only time will tell. The best paragraph of that 'evidence' was

'In TRUTH, nobody knows for sure what the economic consequences would be of Britain leaving the EU. An “objective and impartial” analysis could conclude that it would be detrimental to Britain’s interest to pull out. But it would be equally possible for an “objective and impartial” analysis to conclude that the dangers of quitting have been overestimated and that Britain could benefit from going it alone.'


A fair assessment thumbsup 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:30 pm

skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

His view on the EU had no bearing on his party's polling, the LD were always going to get destroyed.

It is also incorrect to say that the majority of the electorate voted for anti-EU partys. UKIP/BNP/English Democrats/no2EU were the only anti-eu partys. Labour/lib dem/SNP/Green were all in favour of the EU and the pro eu parties combined got more votes.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:36 pm

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

His view on the EU had no bearing on his party's polling, the LD were always going to get destroyed.

It is also incorrect to say that the majority of the electorate voted for anti-EU partys. UKIP/BNP/English Democrats/no2EU were the only anti-eu partys. Labour/lib dem/SNP/Green were all in favour of the EU and the ro eu parties combined got more votes.


CS yet again you are wrong. Read the post. I was very careful to not say majority. You need help.

Now and again i press the hide button Wink 

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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:38 pm

Why do you bother Skye, the hide button is your friend  Cool 

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:40 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Why do you bother Skye, the hide button is your friend  Cool 

 Laugh Laugh 

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:49 pm

skyeman wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
skyeman wrote:
rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Clegg is a dead man walking. He went the wrong way with the coalition and the lies and then his idiot advisors told him to be the Pro EU party {and attack UKIP} when any sensible person could see that was not the path to take. Look at the results Wink 

Well I think Clegg deserves some credit for being the only party leader to stand up to UKIP and the rising far right/anti EU hysteria that is bubbling up in this country. Cameron and that creep Miliband kept their hands clean but deep down know what side their croissants are buttered on .

That said the lib dems committed political suicide the day they agreed to the tuition fee increase and Clegg was always going to carry the can as Cameron's side kick.

Sorry Rodders, but it was stupid of the Lib Dems on Europe, and now he will pay the price. Not just that i cede.

The highest amount of the electorate who voted were for an anti EU party. He still is not acknowledgeing this.

His view on the EU had no bearing on his party's polling, the LD were always going to get destroyed.

It is also incorrect to say that the majority of the electorate voted for anti-EU partys. UKIP/BNP/English Democrats/no2EU were the only anti-eu partys. Labour/lib dem/SNP/Green were all in favour of the EU and the ro eu parties combined got more votes.


CS yet again you are wrong. Read the post. I was very careful to not say majority. You need help.

Now and again i press the hide button Wink 

So an anti-eu party gained the most votes of any one party but anti-eu partys got less votes combined than pro-eu partys.


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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:50 pm

CS reads what he wants to. PMSL

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 5:55 pm

skyeman wrote:CS reads what he wants to. PMSL

you keep saying the people have spoken that they want a referendum and your evidence is based on UKIP an anti-EU Party gaining the most votes. But if you look at the wider picture the pro-EU parties gained more votes than the Anti-EU parties.

Labour/lib dems/SNP have refused a referendum and the conservatives have promised one in 2017 if they win a majority in 2015. Conservatives won't win a majority (they know that) and so it looks like there wont be a referendum for a long time.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Tue 27 May 2014, 6:50 pm

Clegg has somehow hung on this long, even though he took the party into a coalition with the Tories.  That was bad enough but his most serious mistake was in letting tuition fees go through almost without resistance.

I often feel that it was the lure of power that was all too much to resist.... to actually have a governmental role to play.... to have a seat at the Cabinet table and I'm sure that his motivation would have included a desire to be able to moderate whatever extreme policies the tories were planning, from within.  

That would have made sense and had he done this adequately he might have been viewed in a more favourable light.  He should have fought tuition fees tooth and claw.  That, for most Liberal Democrat party members, not to mention voters, was the worst sell out.

Sadly, the Liberal Democrats opportunity to influence government and moderate the tories behaviour has been wasted.  All the LD's can point to for five years of sell out is a few scraps from the tories table.  The price of those has been too high and it looks as though Nick Clegg is going to have to pay it.

His removal isn't a done deal yet.  While Paddy Ashdown supports him, he can hang in there.  But as the election looms ever larger on the horizon the need to do something.... anything..... to improve the Liberal Democrats standing will grow.  I have no idea what that could be, but it would have to be pretty substantial.

Otherwise, sooner rather than later, he'll be toast.
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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 6:53 pm

What will happen to the coalition if Nick Clegg is forced out?

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Post by kingjohn7 on Tue 27 May 2014, 8:04 pm

Hi guys I've never been around for a referendum, how would it work? If say 40% of electorate turned up and say 60% of them voted out of Europe would we be out? Or would more than 50% of electorate have to vote out?

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Tue 27 May 2014, 8:12 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:Hi guys I've never been around for a referendum, how would it work? If say 40% of electorate turned up and say 60% of them voted out of Europe would we be out? Or would more than 50% of electorate have to vote out?

I remember the scotland referendum (devolution) in 1979 needed 40% of the total eligible voters to say yes to devolution for it to count. 63% of people voted and about 51% voted in favour of devolution which was only about 31.5% of eligible voters so devolution failed.

I imagine any EU referendum would require something similer or even require 50% of total eligible voters to vote in favour of independence for it to count.

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Post by skyeman on Tue 27 May 2014, 8:22 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:Hi guys I've never been around for a referendum, how would it work? If say 40% of electorate turned up and say 60% of them voted out of Europe would we be out? Or would more than 50% of electorate have to vote out?

Scotland was robbed at the last referendum.

The EU in/out referendum would just need an 50.01 either way from the actual voting electorate to count. Without the Scottish/UK stipulations of course Wink

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