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Post by skyeman on Thu 29 May 2014, 4:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Derbymanc wrote:I'm baffled by all this too Skye, can anyone tell me what the actual problem is with CONTROLLED immigration ???


Aye Dm, you mentioned a while back about MP's not wanting to live in their consticuency.

Margaret Hodge of Barking. Where does she live Very Happy 

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:45 am

skyeman wrote:
Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Much will depend at the general election on how far by then UKIP have actually developed an effective infrastructure, party discipline, a range of credible spokespeople and coherent policies.  They have a fair way to go on that front...


Hi Ch. These things will be forthcoming over the months. Farage and his advisors have already and will continue to bring in top people who are both political and MSM savvy. On the policy front, the new manifesto is being drawn up and will be launched in  Ed Miliband's seat of Doncaster in September Wink  UKIP also react much quicker to disipline issues than LibLabCon. They have of course made mistakes but will now become more professional as time goes on.

Much will also depend on how LibLabCon react over the months and whether or not they start to genuinely  listen to their voters concerns. The only way that this can really happen is by being given a referendum. That is what the majority want.

Token gestures/words will lose LibLabCon even more votes as will two week u-turns that we have just seen from Labour!

You are going to be very disappointed when disgruntled Conservative and Labour voters when forced to choose from a right wing or left wing administration come back into the fold..

Euro and local elections are for fun....GE 2015 is for real..


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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 9:50 am

Duty281 wrote:The signs are looking good for UKIP: the overwhelming majority of those who voted UKIP on May 22 will do so again in 2015, the polls for Newark are fairly close, and Farage is working out the game-plan for the General Election.

A grammar school in every town, increasing the tax-free earnings threshold by nearly £3,000, scrapping the top rate of tax, and targeting up to 36 seats. More on the party's manifesto (the so-called one policy party Laugh) will be revealed in Doncaster in September.

Love you Nigel!

Surely people haven't made up their minds yet as no other policy other than 'Europe is bad m'kay' has been announced?

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:06 am

The polls posted looks like UKIP could be fine in the GE Truss, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, but if your right i'll owe you a pint Hug 

Just for you No.7

http://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/themes/5308a93901925b5b09000002/attachments/original/1397750311/localmanifesto2014.pdf?1397750311

If you go on the original thread there's a bunch of links to all the parties policies, although Labours has probably completely changed by now  Wink 

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:11 am

Yeah there's the scare mongering foreigners are bad things, but not much else. People have done their protest votes and in the end it will come down to Labour or Conservatives.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:16 am

Take it you didn't get further down, nor see the news yesterday about their tax ideas etc etc.

Just remember the reason that the other parties are in a bit of a mess at the moment is because they ignored what peoples concerns were.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:17 am

I think the debates will be key to UKIP....Open goal for Farage If he gets an invite..

My guess is he won't!!

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:18 am

Do you not find that pretty galling though Truss? surely he should be up there if the parties aren't running scared?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:32 am

Problem is he has no representation at westminster.....and they are Westminster elections..

The Greens and even the SNP could say hang on a minute..

Me I'd like him there !!!

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 10:53 am

Derbymanc wrote:Take it you didn't get further down, nor see the news yesterday about their tax ideas etc etc.

Just remember the reason that the other parties are in a bit of a mess at the moment is because they ignored what peoples concerns were.


I read it, their talking points remain at scare mongering. So is it going to be Labour or Conservative? Would think that quite a lot of Lid Dem voters are going to move to Labour so that's where my money is.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:12 am

I'm actually of the belief that bar the absolute minority parties (the pirate party etc) that all the main recognisable parties should be allowed as part of the debate.

@No.7
I disagree about the scaremongering as mentioned in the previous thread (check out the poorest areas basically,) and think controlled immigration has to be implemented. What he have now is not sustainable

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:20 am

One hour for all the parties ??

Won't be much of a "debate"

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:24 am

You'd obviously have to change it up a bit, but do you not think that the parties have a right to the debate?

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:43 am

If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 11:54 am

You've kind of got a point (said through gritted teeth  Very Happy ) but there is an issue and ignoring it doesn't make it better.

I think we got too used to shouting racist at anyone that questioned our immigration policies that that is the new default status we have got too. Regardless of if you support UKIP or not, the fact it looks like it's getting the other parties talking can only be a good thing.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 12:48 pm

The only really important question from UKIP is why do LibLabCon not want to give a fixed date for an EU referendum. Forget all the other stuff about UKIP, when 8/10 from all parties  want the referendum

Do not treat the electorate as fools.

It really is obvious why!

No say on the Lisbon Treaty too. When the then Government gave many powers away to the EU.

We should have had a referendum on our EU membership before the Lisbon Treaty was signed.

The two remaining politicians that stand on the wrong side of that argument are denying us our basic democratic rights, freedom and right to self-determination and that will always place them on the wrong side of history.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 2:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

Nigel Farage supports controlled immigration, not no immigration.

Of course, in your rush to make ignorant, incorrect points, I suppose you would have glossed over that.

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:04 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

Nigel Farage supports controlled immigration, not no immigration.

Well you'd imagine he would considering he has his German wife on the payroll and the fact that that he needs votes from racists and xenophobes in working class ethnic minority communities as well white ones,
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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:10 pm

rodders wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

Nigel Farage supports controlled immigration, not no immigration.

Well you'd imagine he would considering he has his German wife on the payroll and the fact that that he needs votes from racists and xenophobes in working class ethnic minority communities as well white ones,  

Not again Rodders, even the dummies have stopped that now, just the like Ed who is now agreeing with UKIP. Doh 

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:14 pm

Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

Nigel Farage supports controlled immigration, not no immigration.

Of course, in your rush to make ignorant, incorrect points, I suppose you would have glossed over that.

The point stands though. He could talk about it generically but he doesn't. It's a relevant point that he's not talking about Germans and the Franch etc as he's playing to fears. The Germans afterall would be contributing to the same issue would they not or can we ignore them; Farrage says it's different but is it really if this is really about controlled imigration?

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:If he wasn't trying to scaremonger he'd talk about immigration rather than Romanians for instance. They're new age Pakistani's and Caribeans; its acceptable to play them as the bad guys for cheap points.

Nigel Farage supports controlled immigration, not no immigration.

Of course, in your rush to make ignorant, incorrect points, I suppose you would have glossed over that.

The point stands though. He could talk about it generically but he doesn't. It's a relevant point that he's not talking about Germans and the Franch etc as he's playing to fears. The Germans afterall would be contributing to the same issue would they not or can we ignore them; Farrage says it's different but is it really if this is really about controlled imigration?

Of course he's not going to talk about it generically, he wants to keep the money rolling into London from France, Germany, Russia, US, Switzerland, Saudi Arabia, China, Hong Kong etc. - its only poor immigrants they want out.
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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:24 pm

But it is still a fact. More Romanians have been "arrested" than any other European in London percentage wise. And if that continues to grow as more come in?

Scare mongering to put a point across, but none the less. A fact.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:26 pm



New Labour's decision to open up the UK to workers from the newer EU countries immediately in 2004, when all other older EU countries except Sweden and Ireland chose not to, is the probably the main cause of all this current mess and UKIP's recent success.

After such a large error in their estimate of how many people would come to the UK from those newer EU countries Labour should just keep quiet on the issue because any anti-immigration moves by the party would sound ridiculous and opportunist.



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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:28 pm

The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:29 pm

skyeman wrote:More Romanians have been "arrested"  than any other European in London percentage wise.

More than UK nationals?
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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Spot on.
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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:35 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

You sound like Diane Abbot Very Happy 



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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:38 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:More Romanians have been "arrested"  than any other European in London percentage wise.

More than UK nationals?

YES Way more % wise. 10X Rodders. Check the figures in London from Met stats.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:42 pm

Rodders where do you live currently? (not the street number, etc, just a general place)

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:42 pm

In fact from the Met stats 52% of ALL arrests have come from Londoners born outside the UK.

Next, you will be saying that the Met police pick on Europeans!

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:45 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Rodders where do you live currently? (not the street number, etc, just a general place)

The UK capital of religious and ethnic tolerance, liberalism and multi-culturism....... NI ....  angel 
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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:47 pm

skyeman wrote:In fact from the Met stats 52% of ALL arrests have come from Londoners born outside the UK.

Next, you will be saying that the Met police pick on Europeans!

Well ... its funny you should say that....  Cool 
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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:48 pm

skyeman wrote:

New Labour's decision to open up the UK to workers from the newer EU countries immediately in 2004, when all other older EU countries except Sweden and Ireland chose not to, is the probably the main cause of all this current mess and UKIP's recent success.

After such a large error in their estimate of how many people would come to the UK from those newer EU countries Labour should just keep quiet on the issue because any anti-immigration moves by the party would sound ridiculous and opportunist.



And there in lies the problem for Labour. How do they try to get their faithful Northern heartland back?

Dug their own grave.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:50 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:In fact from the Met stats 52% of ALL arrests have come from Londoners born outside the UK.

Next, you will be saying that the Met police pick on Europeans!

Well ... its funny you should say that....  Cool 


Are the British not Europeans Doh . It is why i only said European, to prove my point.

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:51 pm

So 48% of arrests in London are on UK nationals then?

How can Romanians be higher percentage than that?
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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:51 pm

Ha ha  thumbsup 

Having not been to N.I for many many years (or ever for that matter,) I can't comment on it there. I can say though that in areas of manchester there is a big problem with Eastern European immigrants, that aren't here too work and cause big problems in the area due to drunkeness etc. (Walk around Crumpsall and you can see it most hours of the day.)

This takes away from the good work that the hard working eastern europeans do and therefore uncontrolled immigration does them a huge disservice.

And stop with the xenophobic and racist insults, it makes you come across as a bit of a Muppet when in reality you've helped make this a good debate

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Yep, which is why watching the spread of the far right disease all of Europe is so scary. There are worse parties than UKIP getting footholds all over the place.

And to complete Godwins law, we all know what happened when this happened last time.......

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Post by No 7&1/2 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:55 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Yep, which is why watching the spread of the far right disease all of Europe is so scary.  There are worse parties than UKIP getting footholds all over the place.

And to complete Godwins law, we all know what happened when this happened last time.......

Yup; the bloody Tories stayed in power for 18 years.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:55 pm

rodders wrote:So 48% of arrests in London are on UK nationals then?

How can Romanians be higher percentage than that?


OMG Rodders, do you not understand % wise.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:58 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Yep, which is why watching the spread of the far right disease all of Europe is so scary.  There are worse parties than UKIP getting footholds all over the place.

And to complete Godwins law, we all know what happened when this happened last time.......

Yup; the bloody Tories stayed in power for 18 years.

Then we had Labour and went broke  Whistle 

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 3:59 pm

rodders wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Rodders where do you live currently? (not the street number, etc, just a general place)

The UK capital of religious and ethnic tolerance, liberalism and multi-culturism....... NI ....  angel 

It's funny. If anything, London is normally the place cited as where the 'multiculturalism melting-pit' works best.

That is, if you drag your eyes away from areas like the trash in Finsbury Park and actually concentrate on all the people in all the powerful high earning high tax paying jobs that are from all over the place. And the vibrant restaurant and theatre scenes, as well as the growing science, tech & medecine industries - all of which benefit massively from immigration.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:01 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Yep, which is why watching the spread of the far right disease all of Europe is so scary.  There are worse parties than UKIP getting footholds all over the place.

And to complete Godwins law, we all know what happened when this happened last time.......

Yup; the bloody Tories stayed in power for 18 years.

I only pray that happens again, praise Allah!!

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:04 pm

There's nothing wrong with immigration Toppy, I don't think anyones questioning that. My view is it needs to be more controlled and certain things need to be stopped entirely (claiming tax credits for children living elsewhere (immigrants and expats alike,) Claiming benefits without putting into the system first. Lack of School;/GP/Dentist places etc.

The system needs changing

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:05 pm

What did David Blunkett say just recently about the huge gang street fight between Roma gypsies and British Asians in Sheffield. And what did the British Asians say.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:07 pm

I have no idea Skye?

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:12 pm

Many, many East Europeans are the most racist, anti-gay and untolerant people on the planet.

Hard times ahead.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:16 pm

Just look at the football matches. Wink

In fairness, Spain could be included.


Last edited by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:16 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Ha ha  thumbsup 

Having not been to N.I for many many years (or ever for that matter,) I can't comment on it there. I can say though that in areas of manchester there is a big problem with Eastern European immigrants, that aren't here too work and cause big problems in the area due to drunkeness etc. (Walk around Crumpsall and you can see it most hours of the day.)

This takes away from the good work that the hard working eastern europeans do and therefore uncontrolled immigration does them a huge disservice.

And this is a really serious point that the political class are afraid to debate.

People see a minority of yobs coming in and it skews the perception of immigration. I do genuinely understand the frustration - we've had some dodgy eastern Europeans live near us recently but they aren't representative of the majority.

Most eastern Europeans I've come across, the polish particularly are friendly, intelligent, articulate, hard working people - a lot professional and well educated. I'd apply that to most immigrants I've come across EU or not.

I don't dismiss what you are saying, I have a lot of connections with the north of England. However for me the issue is not caused by immigration but deep routed economic and social problems - poor education, public services and social mobility, and economy built around London and the financial service industry - it's Westminster failing the North and other poorer parts of the UK not the EU.

An influx of immigrants into already crowded towns and cities struggling with the economic down turn is not good for sure but reducing immigration is not a magic bullet and leaving the EU would do more harm than good to the economy, which despite the pre election spin is still fragile.

I don't disagree that there are issues with immigration that need to be addressed - they need to be addressed within the EU and also kept within perspective. Throwing a few thousand Romanians out might be a popular political aspiration with certain voters but its a false economy if it means sleepwalking out of the single market and alienating the other EU countries and wider international community to do it.
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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:24 pm

That's more like it Rodders  Hug 

As you know I don't agree with you on Europe and don't think either of us can change the other's minds on that.

Most Immigrants are perfectly respectable, decent, hard working people. The problem lie's in that there doesn't seem to be any control over those coming over, and for some unknown reason, common sense doesn't seem to apply. Immigrants not working and not being allowed to claim benefits would free up housing for people that need it and would also potentially free up school places etc.

It's a very tough problem too sort if we stay in the EU, and if that's what happens the parties NEED to get a hold on it.

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:29 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:The main cause of UKIPs success is a global economic downturn followed by the age old move to the right in general politics.

Yep, which is why watching the spread of the far right disease all of Europe is so scary.  There are worse parties than UKIP getting footholds all over the place.

And to complete Godwins law, we all know what happened when this happened last time.......

Yup; the bloody Tories stayed in power for 18 years.

I only pray that happens again, praise Allah!!

 Laugh Laugh 

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:38 pm

Derbymanc wrote:That's more like it Rodders  Hug 

As you know I don't agree with you on Europe and don't think either of us can change the other's minds on that.

My mind can be changed derby if the evidence is there that its in the long term interests of the country and me personally. Nothing I've seen or heard convinces me of that when you weigh up the pros and cons of being in the EU.

And also I can only look at my personal circumstances and experiences, where I feel the benefits to me of being and EU citizen far outweigh any negatives. I don't put much stock in anything Clegg, Farage, Cameron or Red Ed say ... they are all a shower of wasters and reality jugglers in my opinion.
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