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Post by skyeman on Thu 29 May 2014, 4:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Derbymanc wrote:I'm baffled by all this too Skye, can anyone tell me what the actual problem is with CONTROLLED immigration ???


Aye Dm, you mentioned a while back about MP's not wanting to live in their consticuency.

Margaret Hodge of Barking. Where does she live Very Happy 

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:39 pm

Good post there Rodders thumbsup 

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Post by rodders on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:44 pm

skyeman wrote:Good post there Rodders thumbsup 

Merci monsieur  RedWine
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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:47 pm

rodders wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:That's more like it Rodders  Hug 

As you know I don't agree with you on Europe and don't think either of us can change the other's minds on that.

My mind can be changed derby if the evidence is there that its in the long term interests of the country and me personally. Nothing I've seen or heard convinces me of that when you weigh up the pros and cons of being in the EU.

And also I can only look at my personal circumstances and experiences, where I feel the benefits to me of being and EU citizen far outweigh any negatives. I don't put much stock in anything Clegg, Farage, Cameron or Red Ed say ... they are all a shower of wasters and reality jugglers in my opinion.    

 thumbsup 

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Post by skyeman on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 4:49 pm

rodders wrote:
skyeman wrote:Good post there Rodders thumbsup 

Merci monsieur  RedWine


Credit lorsque le credit est du.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 4:52 am

rodders wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:That's more like it Rodders  Hug 

As you know I don't agree with you on Europe and don't think either of us can change the other's minds on that.

My mind can be changed derby if the evidence is there that its in the long term interests of the country and me personally. Nothing I've seen or heard convinces me of that when you weigh up the pros and cons of being in the EU.

And also I can only look at my personal circumstances and experiences, where I feel the benefits to me of being and EU citizen far outweigh any negatives. I don't put much stock in anything Clegg, Farage, Cameron or Red Ed say ... they are all a shower of wasters and reality jugglers in my opinion.    


That's pretty much what democracy is supposed to be all about, Rodders..... hearing all the arguments, making up your own mind and voting accordingly.   This is what living  in a free country means.

I would not accuse you of being over cynical in your feelings towards the leaders of the main parties but it may be worth considering that sometimes our attitudes towards one party or another becomes largely driven by media coverage of what their party leader says or does.

I'm going to toss a thought into the ring now, just for discussion's sake.

Whilst the leader is important inasmuch as he (she) is the spokesperson for the general direction and policies of that party, I sometimes think too much emphasis is placed on this.

When voting in any election, I try to balance my view of the party policies by giving as much consideration as possible to the actual candidate I'm voting for.   We've all had a fair old chinwag on this topic now, with much toing and froing over this party or that party, but at the end of the day, do you know who your local elected representatives are..?  Who is your MP?  Your local ward councillor?  Your MEP?  What ticket did they contest the election on that was relevant to you personally...?

In my opinion, these things are important, after all, you have entrusted those persons with your voice.  They can, by virtue of winning, claim to be speaking for you.  They can claim to have a mandate from you.  

Reality jugglers they may be, but they're juggling reality in your name, and they're doing it at the local level where it may (especially in the case of local council elections) have a direct effect on you personally.  Isn't that as (or possibly even more) important than anything Red Ed, or Tory Boy or Adolph Farage trumpets from the rooftops..?
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Post by rodders on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:49 am

Not necessarily Lion. I am entitled to determine my own view in terms of what is best for the country and me personally without that being influenced by the political aspirations of one or more parties.

Just because the majority of the mainstream parties have a particular view on something does not necessarily make that view correct or in the best interests of the country, or at least for the majority of the electorate.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 9:58 am

Morning Rodders and 4L's,

I think that the leader of each party is very important with constituents, you need a leader with charisma and passion about what he's talking about.

I agree that for each election (local/EU and General) you should take each election as it comes and see what each party is offering and see what you believe in. Voting for a party because your parents did/it's who you always vote for/where you live, (IMO) is pretty stupid.

Politics is slowly changing and all of the parties are going to have to do better. As alluded to before, Labour didn't even bother sending out flyers where I live (North Manchester,) as they believe we all vote for them blindly. Although our MP is brilliant, I don't believe in the council/councillors. But I don't believe in Labours policies nor them as a party so unfortunately Mr Woolas won't be getting my vote, unless he somehow manages to sort out the issues our council refuse to deal with.

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Post by rodders on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:11 am

I think people are disillusioned with politics. I certainly am.

Personally despite being not particularly happy with the status quo I don't see a viable alternative - labour have zero credibility as an opposition let alone as a potential government.

Farage at least has shown some conviction and charisma. Unfortunately for me I am fundamentally opposed to most of his parties core principals and policies. I can see why so many people are gravitating towards UKIP even if it is a false economy and misguided in my view.

There is a total lack of political leadership in the centre left and even far left which leaves very little options for the electorate in Britain right now.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:21 am

I've got to be honest and say I don't really understand the far left/far right etc etc. I've tried to keep myself away from that and just look at policies.

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Post by rodders on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:43 am

Well you've got right dressed as centre right, shifting right in the conservatives - far right dressed as right in UKIP. Left dressed as middle in labour, centre dressed as left in Lib dem.

Everyone is fighting over the centre right so have the same policies, more or less. everyone wants to be new labour, except for UKIP who want to be the tories and the tories who want to be both.
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Post by Derbymanc on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 10:50 am

That's what I mean Rodders, I remember trying to work it our when I was younger and then just gave up. The way i take it is the far rightis the BNP and the far left is completely liberal.

I don't really like the labels to be honest and they should be fighting over the policies they believe in, and using a bit of common bleeding sense.


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 11:01 am

rodders wrote:Everyone is fighting over the centre right so have the same policies, more or less.  everyone wants to be new labour, except for UKIP who want to be the tories and the tories who want to be both.

Brilliant summation.

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Post by The Fourth Lion on Tue 03 Jun 2014, 2:13 pm

Thanks for those comments, Gentlemen. I pretty much agree with most of what has been said and I'm glad my suggestion was seen in the light in which it was intended and prompted some intelligent discussion. I especially enjoyed reading Rodders' summary which, for me, nails it succinctly but accurately.

It is difficult to see the wood for the trees at this time and I can understand why Rodders says he is disillusioned. Speaking for myself, I think of voting almost (but not entirely) as a duty as much as a civil right. I must confess that of late, I have been tempted to deliberately spoil my ballot paper by writing at the bottom "None of the above", but that really WOULD be a wasted vote.

I was one of those who, in my own constituency in 2010, took part in a symbolic protest at our local Conservative Party HQ by placing rubber bath ducks on the wall outside to draw attention to the standing MP having been exposed during the expenses scandal as having used taxpayers money to build a duck house in the middle of the pond in his back garden. Symbolic as a protest it may have been, but the local publicity was enough to draw attention to him and within a week he was de-selected by the party despite having held the seat since 1970.

The people can influence the course of events by direct action, and it doesn't have to be violent in order to make a point.

I come from a generation that grew up in the knowledge that our fathers had gone to war against fascism to ensure that we, their children, had a country worth living in. When I was a boy, many wounds were still open. The memories were still raw. In the post war elections, many people voted even when they didn't agree with any of the parties. They voted because they could.... and were grateful for it.

Now, as I approach senior citizenship, I can't help still believing that not to use the vote that so many died to preserve is a dishonour to their memory. Even to this day.

On Friday, we will all be reminded of what happened on the Normandy landing grounds 70 years ago. No doubt the people of this country will want to honour the sacrifice of those who fought all those years ago for the freedom and democracy we enjoy today.

One way to honour that sacrifice is to remember what they fought for. The political parties may be in a horrible mess, but if you can't find a party you completely agree with in all respects, then give your vote to the party you disagree with the least. That would be something.

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Post by skyeman on Fri 06 Jun 2014, 5:54 pm

I was just praying that not one politician on such a day as today would bring their interests up.

But Monsieur Hollande? You are a disgrace.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 22 Jun 2014, 5:57 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27955695

The headline says it all about the EU - an unprecedented vote may be called for.

A vote?! The very nerve, the horror!

Still, I suppose if this drunkard gets in charge of the EU Commission, undemocratically of course, Britannia might leave or, at the very least, Cameron might call for an earlier referendum.

One can hope anyway.

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Post by Champagne_Socialist on Sun 22 Jun 2014, 8:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27955695

The headline says it all about the EU - an unprecedented vote may be called for.

A vote?! The very nerve, the horror!

Still, I suppose if this drunkard gets in charge of the EU Commission, undemocratically of course, Britannia might leave or, at the very least, Cameron might call for an earlier referendum.

One can hope anyway.

We vote for meps and the meps vote for the president, not sure what you find undemocratic about that...

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