Wimbledon Day 4

First topic message reminder :

Surely today's play deserves a thread of it's own!

Nadal v Rosol. Many praying for a repeat of 2012. You are going to need a roof for that! Nadal looking for some revenge no doubt. Shoulder barge to strike again like a Suarez bite?

Federer v Muller. Potential tricky opponent for Roger. Again could Federer make another 2nd round exit?

Our Hev is in action against Kerber. Fingers crossed on that one.

Wawrinka, Gasquet, Raonic, Williams, Bouchard and Sharapova all in action.

Tsonga and Querrey to commence their 5 set epic!

On the plus side, that's not all that happened behind the bicycle sheds...

Quick question gents where is Lopez and isner in the draw? In the sense of which big guy they would meet?

falzy21 wrote:Quick question gents where is Lopez and isner in the draw? In the sense of which big guy they would meet?

Lopez v Pavic. Winner to play Isner (Isner beat Nieminen).

Cool whose the too seed in that quarter?

Aah it's rogers

JuliusHMarx wrote:On the plus side, that's not all that happened behind the bicycle sheds...

In which case you obviously did hand over your dinner money !!!!!  

I think it was this thread where some were posting about nadal taking more time than what the rule says between points

I just measured 2 arbitrary serves from rosol in the second set with 3-2 for him (right after breaking nadal) and one time he took 26 seconds and the next time (30-30) he took 28 seconds.

right in the next game, after 0-15 nadal took 19 seconds to serve and with 15-15 he took 20 seconds

I know nadal takes more time than others, but its funny that I hapenned to measure time in the two games where roles were reversed

with 4-3 0-30, rosol takes 30 seconds
with 0-40 he takes 26
and with 15-40he takes 21

on to 4-4 nadal serving

15-0 23 seconds
30-0 21 seconds
40-0 25 seconds
40-15 26 seconds
40-30 29 seconds

5-4 rosolvserving to stay

40-15 he takes just 14 seconds to serve (dont have previous points, but its much more faster than previous serve)

5-5 nadal at serve

15-0 20 seconds
30-0 26 seconds (after two people talk when he was about to serve after 19 secs)
40-0 21 secs
41-15 21 secs

Thanks naxroy....it would be so nice to see this subject put to bed. He has I know been deperately trying to speed up but not easy when you have an opponent who is jumping up and down and talking whilst you serve...I also read that Rosol took pleasure in kicking over one of Rafa's water bottles... another thing he can add to his over dinner conversation in years to come.the twonk

This is from AO 2012 and you can see the scoreline as well.



This is average, not individual points. I know Nadal is now using two towels, rather than one, which helps him speed up a bit more.

There has been a long-running debate and many articles written. There are posters on both sides of the equation with opinions. There are ITF rules too.

This subject (along with several others) seems to draw trenches. Just makes the Tennis that much less enjoyable.

Not just because its Nadal who is cast as the worst perpetrator of this dreadful crime,
(there are others as we know) but it is not something that detracts from the pleasure of watching the game for me. I personally am more aggrieved at the behaviour, language and racket abuse (screaming by the women) that goes on. This is, in my opinion is something that needs to be looked at.
Why dont they have a general clean up of the rules and apply them strictly to the letter. But there are so many inconsistencies by the umpires that players and spectators alike are confused as to what they can and cannot get away with

^ I think its safe to say Nadal playing at any speed is more entertaining than anyone else on tour. That's why McEnroe said:

"If he's(Nadal) the one selling more tickets than his opponents, they have to put up with the few extra seconds he takes between points."

McEnroe also finds it funny that these physically demanding slam events have 20 seconds, while non-slams have 25 seconds. Fortunately the umpires are smarter than the rulebook.

@H-n... I had much rather watch Stosur than Azarenka or Sharapova. I prefer Venus over Serena. I will watch Evert-Navaratilova or Graf (but not Seles).

The grunting-men is worse than Larcher-Brito at 110db, IMO.

So did anyone watch Monfils? What was he playing at?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/28039410

I didn't watch Monfils, nor can I find any highlights anywhere (available to us blokes who don't live in the UK), but TBH Monfils's grasscourt pedigree is pretty much non existent. This Vesely guy is 20 years old and on a steady upwards curve. Anyone seen him play at all? Could he be one to watch?

laverfan wrote:This is from AO 2012 and you can see the scoreline as well.



This is average, not individual points. I know Nadal is now using two towels, rather than one, which helps him speed up a bit more.

There has been a long-running debate and many articles written. There are posters on both sides of the equation with opinions. There are ITF rules too.

This subject (along with several others) seems to draw trenches. Just makes the Tennis that much less enjoyable.

Read Neil Harmon today in The Times where he refers, hilariously, to irritable towel syndrome !

On the subject of slow play in tennis, at least the fans, weather-permitting, get to see the whole match. In contrast, cricket fans are being constantly short-changed with over rates in Tests meaning not all the play is completed.
Agree that it's quite ridiculous to have a SHORTER time-twixt-serves rule for 5-set matches and a longer one for three-set matches.
Only way to disrupt the Nadal routine is to wait until he's finally ready to serve and then pull away to, say, do up your shoe. (or even fiddle with your shorts).

JuliusHMarx wrote:So did anyone watch Monfils? What was he playing at?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/28039410

Bizarre is the only word for it.

Prime example of why I see Monfils as nothing more than a waster. Hopefully he gets reprimanded for it like Mr Fognini.

It needs for the umpires to address any slow play and make the players aware that they need to up the pace. The technology is there and shows the time players are taking in between points. Why not make that available to umpires so that they can accurately tell the players that they are lagging and that they need to quicken the pace.

Let's not kid ourselves that Nadal is the only culprit though.

legendkillarV2 wrote:It needs for the umpires to address any slow play and make the players aware that they need to up the pace. The technology is there and shows the time players are taking in between points. Why not make that available to umpires so that they can accurately tell the players that they are lagging and that they need to quicken the pace.

Let's not kid ourselves that Nadal is the only culprit though.

The umpires use a stopwatch - they already have the info.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:It needs for the umpires to address any slow play and make the players aware that they need to up the pace. The technology is there and shows the time players are taking in between points. Why not make that available to umpires so that they can accurately tell the players that they are lagging and that they need to quicken the pace.

Let's not kid ourselves that Nadal is the only culprit though.

The umpires use a stopwatch - they already have the info.

Granted, but if they had the average time between points between players I think that would be more than helpful. I think then that way can address both players if they are playing at a slow pace. It isn't just the server who could be lagging, the receiver can also be at fault and they should be penalised too.

They could introduce a new rule where the time between points increases after a few sets and then enforce it strictly, e.g. 20 seconds in the first two sets, 25 seconds in sets 3 and 4, 30 seconds in set 5. That would give players the time they need whilst enforcing it would strictly would stop them from taking the mick.

I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

I watched the Monfils-Vesely match. I cannot see the video, but he played a lackadaisical match, at best. Kept clutching his right ankle and foot between points. He was just standing rooted to a spot and slapping the ball. It was a strange match.

Vesely is still coming up, and perhaps will make a better HC/Clay than a Grass player.

I will look for the Neil Harman article, but is that PPV? HE would normally put something up. I miss HE (apologies to Murray fans for such a wish though). She was briefly here, but is missing.

Regarding the 20/25 ITF/ATP and rules, umpires state it before the match anyway, so why are 99% of players able to follow it, while as LK says, the 1% (and some elite players included) seem to treat it as their feudal domain?

If Rasheed is helping Dimitrov who is making steady progress, I wonder why Monfils under Rasheed was not progressing further except the odd glorious match.

It is interesting with Rasheed. He worked with Tsonga and Monfils and I kind of get the feeling that their commitment and attitudes weren't parallel with Rasheed's ethics. I don't think their styles and philosophies united and hence I don't think Rasheed was the coach for them.

Dimitrov understands that to get higher up his conditioning and fitness need to improve, hence why I think this relationship is showing progress.

I have seen comments from none other than Greg Norman (Shark) (to be taken with a pinch of salt though), that Rasheed is more than a Tennis coach.

His work with Hewitt was good too, even though he did not win a slam under Rasheed.

I thought Rasheed did well with Hewitt. Got him to a Slam final. I think they both shared the same intensity. I think this will serve Dimitrov very well.

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

DirectView2 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

There is an argument to be made about the mental fragility of such an opponent.

Attrition tennis is nothing new either, with Lendl, Borg, Wilander doing it very well. McEnroe himself has played long matches. Anyone recall Horst Skoff? Nadal is just in the same lineage, having grown up on Clay. Muster is yet another example of such, and he could not play well on Grass (as his career W/L indicates).

Bresnik, Thiem's and Gulbis's coach treats Tennis akin to war anyway.

Lacoste had the view that modern tennis was less skill-driven, more athleticism-driven.

Nadal's otherwise stellar achievements are marred by such incidents, coaching thrown in, makes it even worse, IMVHO.

laverfan wrote:Anyone recall Horst Skoff?

I think I had a pint of that in a German pub.

Those minority though never smash their raquets or swear or threaten the umpires most watchers don't often even notice it unless they're looking for it. I think that gives them leeway in the public eye

DirectView2 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

I am with LF on this. Mentally you have to be tough. It doesn't make it right granted. Go back to 2012 and Rosol got inside Rafa's head and out of it got the result. Yesterday Rosol had the edge and for a split second broke away from his rythym and lost the match as a result. That was of his own doing. He chose to go out of his comfort zone that had been serving him so well. The rythym didn't bother him in the first set, so why did he let it bother him in the second?

Umpires need to clamp down on the time violation and the players need to show a little more respect to the game and the opponents and spectators.

DirectView2 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

Nadal in a tough service game in 2nd set- after towling off, doing his routine before serve- as Rosol leans in ready for the serve- Nadal starts picking at the grip on his racquet... looks at it, picks at it, pulls something off though from the tv nothing is hanging from the grip and it doesn't change or missing a chunk after he pulls on it-- then he starts his delivery... by my watch on the reply- he was at the line to serve at around 28 seconds, then took another 20 playing with his racquet. Umpire should have stepped in.

Anyone with an ounce of clarity can see that Nadal is purposely delaying to mess with Rosol's head. To me- that type of time wasting should be stopped, and shows too much gamesmanship. Yes, the umpires should enforce it, but the player(s) should also not try and pull stuff like that.

Same time- I heard that Rosol purposely bumped into Nadals water bottles during a changeover... poor sportsmanship and clearly these two butt heads a bit on court.

ROSOL does his thing too. he moves, talks, knocks down nadal´s bottle... he tries to get into nadals head.

I think Nadal decided before this match that no matter what Rosol did, Nadal would ignore it completely (unlike 2012 when Nadal reacted to Rosol's antics during Nadal's serves).

Federer melted down in USO 2009 which cost him a trophy and a potential record, or more. ( Holding all 4 slams and a sixth USO). He was a 15-30, 4-5 in the fourth set. What a meltdown!

Dolgo done and dusted, IMVHO.

laverfan wrote:

DirectView2 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

There is an argument to be made about the mental fragility of such an opponent.

Attrition tennis is nothing new either, with Lendl, Borg, Wilander doing it very well. McEnroe himself has played long matches. Anyone recall Horst Skoff? Nadal is just in the same lineage, having grown up on Clay. Muster is yet another example of such, and he could not play well on Grass (as his career W/L indicates).

Bresnik, Thiem's and Gulbis's coach treats Tennis akin to war anyway.

Lacoste had the view that modern tennis was less skill-driven, more athleticism-driven.

Nadal's otherwise stellar achievements are marred by such incidents, coaching thrown in, makes it even worse, IMVHO.

Yup Nadal is a great champion on and off the court and I respect him for it, but yes these time wasting, stubborn attitude not to change, taking MTO's as per wish [referees don't have spine to force big names in taking an MTO after the set only], on field coaching etc,... does irritate me and many tennis followers.

naxroy wrote:ROSOL does his thing too. he moves, talks, knocks down nadal´s bottle... he tries to get into nadals head.

But thats only after Rafa started it, Rafa started it and Rosol followed it, so Rafa deserve bigger punishment for forcing his opponent to follow the similar tirade.

TRuffin wrote:

DirectView2 wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:I think 25 seconds should be the limit across all events. Let's be fair the vast majority of players play within the time limit. Why can't the small majority just speed up? Surely it is not that difficult.

Well thats been used as tool by the small minority to

1]Break opponent's rhythm
2]Play an attrition tennis as much as possible
3]To win physical and emotional war fare.

Nadal in a tough service game in 2nd set- after towling off, doing his routine before serve- as Rosol leans in ready for the serve- Nadal starts picking at the grip on his racquet...  looks at it, picks at it, pulls something off though from the tv nothing is hanging from the grip and it doesn't change or missing a chunk after he pulls on it--  then he starts his delivery...   by my watch on the reply- he was at the line to serve at around 28 seconds, then took another 20 playing with his racquet.   Umpire should have stepped in.

Anyone with an ounce of clarity can see that Nadal is purposely delaying to mess with Rosol's head.  To me- that type of time wasting should be stopped, and shows too much gamesmanship.   Yes, the umpires should enforce it, but the player(s) should also not try and pull stuff like that.

Same time- I heard that Rosol purposely bumped into Nadals water bottles during a changeover...  poor sportsmanship and clearly these two butt heads a bit on court.

  

I had to almost fight this on my own yesterday, I was surprised somebody didn't watch the match to get upset.

laverfan wrote:Federer melted down in USO 2009 which cost him a trophy and a potential record, or more. ( Holding all 4 slams and a sixth USO). He was a 15-30, 4-5 in the fourth set. What a meltdown!

I hope you don't remind him during Wimbledon, it wasn't 15-30 it was 0-30 indeed, clearly it should have been one of the worst night mares for him considering all his life he struggled to hold all 4 trophies on one shot and this let off was really horrible, but DelPo's credit he bombed a serve at 15-30 and another one later in that game to take all little chance away from Fed.

DirectView2 wrote:Yup Nadal is a great champion on and off the court and I respect him for it, but yes these time wasting, stubborn attitude not to change, taking MTO's as per wish [referees don't have spine to force big names in taking an MTO after the set only], on field coaching etc,... does irritate me and many tennis followers.

Most of these players are narcissistic and creatures of habit. It depends on what you as a spectator can withstand. None of these are perfect human beings, so some leeway should be allowed, IMVHO.

DirectView2 wrote:I hope you don't remind him during Wimbledon

No plans to, but I almost did v Benneteau. The 2008 W is also a painful memory for Federer fans, but a wonderful one for Nadal fans. This should give you a better perspective. The post-match in-the-door interview with McEnroe in 2008 had him in tears (worse than the AO 2009 or AO 2006).

The willingness of umpires also varies, recall Bernardes v Nadal or Garner v Federer or Mourier v Nadal.

of course everything is susceptible of debate and opinion, but it scapes my understanding how can people judge nadal as a bad sportsman, when his own rivals over 12 years have a great opinion about him as a rival.
I already said, he has met 224 diferent players in his career, and I doubt more than 4-5 have ever complained about him
and to be honest he has not been involved in any serious event (for example, del potro and murray are great guys and still had some hard argument years ago, well nadal has never had one of those either)

naxroy wrote:of course everything is susceptible of debate and opinion, but it scapes my understanding how can people judge nadal as a bad sportsman, when his own rivals over 12 years have a great opinion about him as a rival.
I already said, he has met 224 diferent players in his career, and I doubt more than 4-5 have ever complained about him
and to be honest he has not been involved in any serious event (for example, del potro and murray are great guys and still had some hard argument years ago, well nadal has never had one of those either)

 
I think you've missed a few players out  - I know Berdych had a go at Rafa, Federer had a pop at him the other day. Quite a few others over the years, especially on the time rule. Also I suspect a lot of it is kept in the locker room - for all players. The ATP will keep a lid on that sort of thing.
Fed gets a lot more stick on forums for being a bad sportsman than Rafa yet the players rate him higher than anyone. Go figure.

Edit - also, when someone comes onto a forum a deifies a player e.g. kneel_before_nadal, in such a genuflective fashion, it does tend to bring a reaction from people who wish to point out that the guy isn't really a saint whose poop smells of Chanel No. 5. Again, that's something that we've seen from some Fed fans as well, which has rightly drawn a similar reaction.

Is there any one player who you could name as being the perfect sportsman.?.. if there is it is probably only in your eyes. They are human beings and are not expected to be perfect. Why should they be. They all have their standards, some higher than others, and you will always have someone in this life who is not going to like you, or have a pop at you. No Nadal is not perfect and Im glad he isnt...that does not stop me from admiring his strengths which far outway his weaknesses in my view. Dont we all love our friends for who they are ...warts and all. Surely everyone has a least one of the seven deadly sins