Rugby Players as Role Models

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:31 pm

In the professional era, rugby players have had to come to terms with the fact that their commitment to their employers extends beyond the rugby field. Not everybody is equipped with the maturity or the temperament to be put in the public spotlight or at least to have their ostensibly private life brought into the public sphere. Not everybody has the personality or character, the gift of the gab or public speaking ability to make an impression.

There are some who argue that we ask too much of our rugby players. They are there to play rugby and that is their sole obligation. Impress us on the field and we remain impressed when they're off the field. There's much to like about that simple view of things because often we demand too much of our players. We demand humility and yet we want to hear the truth. We want to be entertained not only on the field but off it, too. Dan Carter is a humble guy who is committed to the team but I could count on a clenched fist the number of interesting comments he has made in a press conference. Contrast that with a character like Merths and then to the extreme of a roller-coaster career of Cipriani and who do we like reading more about?

Yet it seems, there are definite lines that can't be crossed. Rugby is a physical game and sometimes that natural aggression spills onto the field in an inappropriate way. We can get upset when somebody transgresses but when that cynical play becomes foul play, there is justifiable outrage. Equally, we want our players to enjoy themselves on and off the field but when things get out of hand, there is little forgiveness. When a personal problem or mistake becomes publicly aired, it's impossible to separate the player and the person. Zac Guildford, Danny Care, Julian Savea, Kurtley Beale and JOC, Tindall, you name the incident and it doesn't matter what they did, they not only let themselves down but they brought their respective unions into disrepute, albeit to varying degrees. Is that fair? No, in the sense that none of us is perfect and we all make mistakes. On the other hand, it is justified in the sense to a certain extent we are all held accountable for our actions. Imagine an employee posts some photos on a social network profile and a company learns of these photos and dismisses the employee. It happens. Is there a link between that private individual and his work? Some might say a tenuous one. The problem is, when you are a public figure, that link, however tenuous it might be, will invariably be made.

Sometimes, it is difficult to know what interpretation to make. SBW has been called Money Bags Williams. Yet he doesn't drink and doesn't make the papers for bad personal judgements other than financial ones. He is an imposing physical specimen but his loyalty is called into question. But is he just not a gifted sportsman who is making the most of his finite opportunities in sport? Can a distinction be made between him and Gavin Henson who didn't make the most of his rugby talents? Recently, Richie McCaw was said to have played a test with a broken rib. Having already played a RWC final with a crook foot, a precedent had already been made. Some might say this demonstrates his loyalty and commitment to the team whereas others might say it sends the wrong message to younger people or indeed other players that putting your body on the line, even when it's not right, is a wise move. Stephen Ferris might want to have a word to potential stars about the wisdom of such thinking. We seem to draw a line with concussed players but playing through injury in rugby is viewed as loyal and courageous. A broken arm, a ripped testicle, a broken rib. Harden up and don't let the team down. Is this an appropriate message.

When a player lets himself down, it reflects badly on his club or union or indeed both. However, when a player does something right, it seems only the individual gets the recognition. Cummins aka The Honey Badger made the selfless move to give up his World Cup aspirations to move to Japan in order to support his family. Cummins was a rare commodity in rugby. He enjoyed himself on and off the field with his rugby commitments. To say in a press conference I was sweating more than a gypsy with a mortgage is not the most politically correct thing you'll ever here. But we forgive him or at least we don't judge him because he speaks from the heart and he doesn't hide his personality or shelter behind the bland media training the players are given. For that reason he is a breath of fresh air simply because he enjoys himself with these often pointless interviews and is not prepared to give a meaningless soundbite. When a player moves abroad on a club contract, we say he's selling out. But how much do we know about the motives of a player? A player like Rene Ranger or Jerome Kaino might also be thinking of his family but because they're not ill, we don't put them in the same light as a Nick Cummins or Bateman. Is that fair? Do we forgive them, if they come back?

Much like the perfect game, we seek perfection in our rugby players. It's an impossible goal and what we demand from our players is beyond what we ask from ourselves or what people demand from us. Unfortunately, players are in the public eye and we judge them because of it. When they do something right or honourable, we praise them for it. When they do something wrong, some never forgive them for it, even if they have done something good, and we all judge them for it. They're paid professionals: they represent their club or country. But for most of the time, we don't tend to focus on the good stories or the players who keep themselves out of the papers. We focus on the players who bring the game into disrepute as if to say we as spectators are removed from the game and only those in the public eye can be judged.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Biltong on Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:11 pm

Good points Kia, for me personally I despise arrogance and disrespect.

I live my life by those two rules, so not much in a player will upset me, we need to understand that as young men these players might struggle with the fame and fortune, players that hit the bottle too hard must eventually stop.

WHen I came out of the army when I finished my obligatory 2 years of national service I was drunk for 6 months, however after six months I have had my fill and when I got so tired of drinking beer, then brandy, then whiskey etc, I eventually just couldn't face alcohol anymore and simply stopped.

It was never an issue for me since and I rarely if ever have a drink.

I took a friend of mine (forceably) to an AA meeting once and learned a lot about alcoholism. Bascially the speaker told me that we all have the potential to become alcoholics.

But at some point intervention must take place, I think alcoholism is tough to overcome but arrogance even harder.

Some players will never lose that perceived invincibility ad arrogance, for them there is little hope.

I think the problem sport stars face is that people put them on pedestals and when they disappoint supporters ( each will have their own set of moralities) it is hard to redeem themselves.

I was very disappointed in Julian Savea as he was my favourite NZ rugby player so I have moved on to Tim Nanai Williams now Wink
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-28
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:00 pm

So guys that let their hair down are the funny guys with the great soundbytes --- and the more serious taciturn guys are the bores that many admire but few like?

Yeah there is a modicum of truth in that - but our attitudes to them, regardless of them being the silent lonely types or the wild party animals, depends more on us as individuals than it really has much to do with them and the personality they're projecting.  It's all about what our personalities think of their personalities.  And of course this place here proves over and over and over again how different we all are ourselves.

Example:  Since you brought him up.  Dan Carter.
I think he's one of those guys that yes, many people respect because of his ability, but not many people have an opinion on that would be favourable outside the oblong box he plays in.  To some he's simply bland and uninteresting in interviews.  
To others he's maybe considered too much of a good guy with no boxoffice colour attached to his career - no bar room brawls, no bikiniless unknown girls yawning on his bedroom balcony, no moonbuggy antics through Auckland suburbs.  
To others still, the little bit of personality he does show can sometimes appear less than warm, reticent and at times simply dismissive of anything or any player that hasn't worn black.  
Now they might all seem like slightly different versions of one personality but no, it's actually quite a few versions of the personalities of those who actually read about him.  

Some readers are naturally suspicious of or even fear silent guys who don't 'party' simply because so many of their circle of friends are party kinda guys who like to indulge in a lot of noisy beer - and other stuff.  
Some other readers feel no article is worth a thought that doesn't at least hint at a little scandal under the bedsheets, or at the casino, or on the back of a yacht, or in a bad business deal gone wrong, or in bar room dwarf contracts being abused etc, etc, etc.
Some readers just don't see value in a 'personality piece' article unless the player actually has a BoxSet type personality in the first place.  Then other readers don't like players who might feel superior to the surrounding pond life.
So poor Dan - used only as an example of course! - isn't so much responsible for his considered media inspired personality.  It's really only our own biased personalities reflected back at us.  

But anyway, even taking all that onboard........... how we view all that still depends very much on how turned on we are by the extra media circus that surrounds modern sports stars in the first place.  
Some of us need much more than the games.  Some of us crave the private worlds of inner motivation and the private trials and tribulations that a player might go through.  Some of us will read ALL the magazines and internet stuff - others will read little of it.

So I suppose the media requires 'interesting' people and interesting stories to keep those who like to read all this stuff interested.  People/fans/followers who don't read so much of the private girlfriend and drinking sessions stuff - well they don't read the articles anyway.  Therefore the quieter private characters get less airtime, simply based on the economics of catering to the kinds of fans who DO read and love gossip articles.

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:16 pm

DC's very much a role model for kids here. Hes a regular on our rugby smallblacks show and does a lot of appearances etc where children are concerned. So hes in high demand in that respect. Hes just a little boring outwardly so theres not a lot to talk about other than what we see on the field, and thankfully, thats where his strengths are.

My concern for DC might be what will he do when he retires. Communication is high on the agenda for the usual positions top players take up- coaching, media, comments people. Thats really when DC needs to work on being 'interesting'. He has a lot to share and his knowledge must come back into the game somehow...but just where Im not sure.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by disneychilly on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:12 pm

I doubt DC would give a monkeys. Means he gets less media scrutiny than Cummins et al because he just trots out the same old cliches and he isn't a media circus like SBW. Probably means he's kept whatever shenanigans he's had under big wraps which is great for him. Apparently he was a giant man sl@g back in the day but covered his bases enough to keep the media out of it. Being perceived as boring would be a lot better than being hounded all day.

disneychilly

Posts : 2156
Join date : 2011-03-23
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:59 pm

disneychilly wrote:. Being perceived as boring would be a lot better than being hounded all day.

Well, that's certainly my excuse for my quiet life anyway......  Whistle 

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by thebandwagonsociety on Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:20 am

Great article kia.

I think parents try to pass the buck by making rugby players and professional athletes role models.

On the bland versus extrovert discussion, I reckon some of the great characters of the past (Moss Keane, Trevor Brennan) would never have survived the current day social media with some of the antics they got up to. Too often there is a blanket 'be like that guy'.

Parents should be saying to kids to take the positive attributes from professional athletes and learn from their failings.

thebandwagonsociety

Posts : 2382
Join date : 2011-06-02

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:27 am

Dive like Robben, son...but score like Beckham.  Or in other words, play like Chris Ashton but hang longer in the air.

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Bathman_in_London on Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:30 am

Some interesting points in there. When I was younger I looked up to a number of players, I will admit that mostly for them doing well on the pitch/ signing my shirt or whatever. I doubt stories of a boozy end of season dinner would have really changed my opinion!

Now however, as a father myself, do I think of players as good role models? I guess the answer is some of the time.
With rugby being a small world, there are some now senior players who I knew at schoolboy/junior level and are friends of friends or whatever. Certainly I thought some of them were diks then and listening to some stories I've heard still are. I will admit that clouds my judgement slightly as it does make me wonder which other players are less than savoury out of the media.

Having said that, there are many players who are humble, hard working and clearly love what they do and as such I think set a really good example. Wilkinson is the obvious example but I also think from a NH perspective both Sam Warburton and Tom Wood come across well. I should also say that the older 'characters' that I've met like Jason Leonard are really good blokes and are the polar opposite of the good role models I've just mentioned. So I guess I just theres no logic to whether I like a player or not!

Bathman_in_London

Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:57 am

Taylorman wrote:DC's very much a role model for kids here. Hes a regular on our rugby smallblacks show and does a lot of appearances etc where children are concerned. So hes in high demand in that respect. Hes just a little boring outwardly so theres not a lot to talk about other than what we see on the field, and thankfully, thats where his strengths are.

My concern for DC might be what will he do when he retires. Communication is high on the agenda for the usual positions top players take up- coaching, media, comments people. Thats really when DC needs to work on being 'interesting'. He has a lot to share and his knowledge must come back into the game somehow...but just where Im not sure.

I can tell you a few things about what DC got up to the last time NZ visited Ireland. He isnt as squeaky clean as you might think.

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:58 am

disneychilly wrote:I doubt DC would give a monkeys. Means he gets less media scrutiny than Cummins et al because he just trots out the same old cliches and he isn't a media circus like SBW. Probably means he's kept whatever shenanigans he's had under big wraps which is great for him. Apparently he was a giant man sl@g back in the day but covered his bases enough to keep the media out of it. Being perceived as boring would be a lot better than being hounded all day.

Old habits die hard.

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Sin é on Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:05 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Taylorman wrote:DC's very much a role model for kids here. Hes a regular on our rugby smallblacks show and does a lot of appearances etc where children are concerned. So hes in high demand in that respect. Hes just a little boring outwardly so theres not a lot to talk about other than what we see on the field, and thankfully, thats where his strengths are.

My concern for DC might be what will he do when he retires. Communication is high on the agenda for the usual positions top players take up- coaching, media, comments people. Thats really when DC needs to work on being 'interesting'. He has a lot to share and his knowledge must come back into the game somehow...but just where Im not sure.

I can tell you a few things about what DC got up to the last time NZ visited Ireland. He isnt as squeaky clean as you might think.

He was partying with Zeebs - there was bound to be trouble!
Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13609
Join date : 2011-04-02
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Sin é on Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:10 am

I don't think they need to be bland to be a good role model. Donnacha O'Callaghan is a great role model (frequently referred to as the most professional rugby player ever, looks after himself, doesn't drink, UNICEF Ambassador that spends any break he gets in Syria in refugees camps or Haiti.

Yet he is absolutely bonkers and definately not bland.

Jerry Fannery is another one. Great role model, but mad as a bag of cats. His twitter account is just bananas. Fergus McFadden seems to be great fun as well and a very good role model.


Sin é
Sin é

Posts : 13609
Join date : 2011-04-02
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Biltong on Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:07 am

Look at Jaques Kallis from the Proteas, as dull as a blunt knife, yet he is revered by all south africans
Biltong
Biltong
Moderator
Moderator

Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-28
Location : Twilight zone

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:38 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Taylorman wrote:DC's very much a role model for kids here. Hes a regular on our rugby smallblacks show and does a lot of appearances etc where children are concerned. So hes in high demand in that respect. Hes just a little boring outwardly so theres not a lot to talk about other than what we see on the field, and thankfully, thats where his strengths are.

My concern for DC might be what will he do when he retires. Communication is high on the agenda for the usual positions top players take up- coaching, media, comments people. Thats really when DC needs to work on being 'interesting'. He has a lot to share and his knowledge must come back into the game somehow...but just where Im not sure.

I can tell you a few things about what DC got up to the last time NZ visited Ireland. He isnt as squeaky clean as you might think.

theres a difference between being boring and squeaky clean. I meant as a communicator. In fact hes more likely to have lesser known outlets somewhere so good on him. And anyone who's been around rugby for two decades or more like probably you and I have Guns will find nothing surprising there.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:37 pm

Cant argue with that.

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:45 pm

The role of social media is an interesting one. Players like Corey Jane have been sanctioned before for using social media profiles. But contrast that with the tweets or videos of Fuimaono-Sapolu and they seem harmless in comparison.

I've seen Rene Ranger on youtube videos and suspect that it's not the real man himself but it's difficult to know. Are we to judge someone by what somebody posing as him says?

Combine that with the media who are always trying to grab a headline to stimulate the spreading of a story and it's very easy for things to get out of hand. Can we blame that on the players when they are misquoted or their words twisted? Like Fly said, much depends on the agenda of those reading the stories.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:53 pm

Not surprised Cory Jane has been told to stop posting videos. He doesnt come across particularly intelligent. Completely harmless but a little dim.

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:14 pm

Nothing wrong with that. He's a clown but unlike Ali Williams I think he's an amusing one. Some of the videos are cringeworthy but like Izzy he's not afraid to be his true self and even if that doesn't across well I respect them for revealing their true selves instead of projecting a false image. Anton Oliver was a smart guy but it sounded strange hearing a front row player do an impression of a talking thesaurus.

I wouldn't want players to hide who they are or what they really felt. I may not be drawn to certain players as people but that is a reflection of me rather than them. However, if they acted publicly one way and privately another, then I would find them egregious.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:23 pm

Janes your average bloke and has more street smart than anything else from what I've seen. Family man with young kids hes fairly comfortable on sport shows and youre right kia, cheeky like Dagg. He'll certainly go into tv rugby more as he finishes off his career. Hes good for an off beat kind of humour.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by fa0019 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:24 pm

I think there is a difference between a guy signing a contract abroad at the end of his current contract like Cummins and someone like SBW who broke his RL contract what 1 year into a new 5 year deal so he could play for more money in another sport.
 
No problem a guy selling out, putting his family before his sport. Its a short career afterall.
 
But braking a contract simply for a greater gravy train elsewhere simply shows a lack of honour and respect... and why he's not liked.
 
Its nothing to do with jealousy or anything. Jonah Lomu was bigger, stronger, better... yet he was and is universally revered and loved by all over the world not just in NZ.
 
He could have made tens of millions, could have gone to American football, rugby league but the guy lived for the ABs... I mean he cried when he won the bledisdoe cup for heavens sake. And all this on half a kidney.

fa0019

Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-26

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:33 pm

Jonah is a cult figure in Ireland. Still very popular. Always comes across very well too.

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:33 pm

Why he's not liked by you fa0019 and fair enough. There are a few people raising their eyebrows at the fact he only needs to play 20 minutes with Counties Manukau to make the November tour with the All Blacks.

But others would disagree with you and say that he's a gifted sportsman wanting to explore as many opportunities while he still can and his agent is the agressive one.

Personally, I'm in between camps. He'll never have the appeal of someone like Lomu (who actually does though!?) and his wavering between league and union sets a worrying precedent for me in terms of players coming through but if he chooses to make a contribution next year and beyond for the Olympics, then if he's good enough to make the team, I won't have a problem with it. Giving Nonu time off in November would do him the world of good for next year I think and testing him with Fekitoa for the RWC pool games where they are likely to combine with the A team rested makes a lot of sense. There's a certain pragmatism you have to have because though you can justifiably question his loyalty, in terms of physical preparation and commitment to training, you really can't judge the guy. He's definitely a grey area but not one to be dismissed so readily.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by fa0019 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:37 pm

The world of rugby all owe's Jonah a pint of whatever they drink. Most pro's owe their entire careers to the man.
 
I went to a training session of the great 97 ABs during their AI tour of Europe. All the greats were there, Fitzpatrick, Brooke, Merthens...  but they were all totally ignored. A hoard of kids ran past them like they were nobody's all to get to Jonah at the end of the session.
 
For some of those kids, he was the only reason why they got into rugby.

fa0019

Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-26

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:40 pm

I think he had a huge impact no doubt and Jonah, much like the young Fekitoa, had that genuine humility and shyness about them that makes it easy to warm to them.

However, we should also be mindful of the unsung administrative heroes that were crucial in keeping those players from joining a rebel league. The late Jock Hobbs was a key figure in pooling those players together and making them loyal to the NZRU so we shouldn't give all the credit to the players.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:41 pm

Well SBW's also honoured verbal assurances hes given when he could have done something more extravagant as well but that doesnt seem to get a mention and its not as if everyone needs a 'good for the soul' reason for doing something.

The other thing is it depends on what you call a role model. For a lot of kids and I saw a recent study somewhere where they don't give a stuff what a player does off the field or personally as long as they play well and look good on the field.

That way they can all run around being a SBW, a Carter etc and that 'alone' motivates them to get out there and be champions. That might be the younger fans but at least just playing well sparks the initial reason for playing a game. So who are we to sit on our moral high chairs and say that a player should do this or that for this or that particular reason?

In 3- 5 years Sonny Bill wont be calling his own shots, where us moral critics will be saying the same things about the next group, having long forgotten or cared about what SBW does or plays.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by fa0019 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:42 pm

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Why he's not liked by you fa0019 and fair enough. There are a few people raising their eyebrows at the fact he only needs to play 20 minutes with Counties Manukau to make the November tour with the All Blacks.

But others would disagree with you and say that he's a gifted sportsman wanting to explore as many opportunities while he still can and his agent is the agressive one.

Personally, I'm in between camps. He'll never have the appeal of someone like Lomu (who actually does though!?) and his wavering between league and union sets a worrying precedent for me in terms of players coming through but if he chooses to make a contribution next year and beyond for the Olympics, then if he's good enough to make the team, I won't have a problem with it. Giving Nonu time off in November would do him the world of good for next year I think and testing him with Fekitoa for the RWC pool games where they are likely to combine with the A team rested makes a lot of sense. There's a certain pragmatism you have to have because though you can justifiably question his loyalty, in terms of physical preparation and commitment to training, you really can't judge the guy. He's definitely a grey area but not one to be dismissed so readily.
 
Kia
 
I agree to a point. He's a great sportsman and a coach would be insane to leave him out of a squad as he can offer so much.
 
My own question though is in the tough situations, when the chips are down... these are the types of characters who tend to waiver a little.
 
You can see a lot of this in Frans Steyn too. Badly advised too and you'd wish he had someone around him to knock some reality into him now and again but thats the way it is.
 
In the end I think both SBW & F. Steyn are top class players and if I were a coach I would have them in my squad... but I'd certainly be warying of them and the impact they could have on the other players.

fa0019

Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-26

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:47 pm

I think you're not taking into account the players timeframe here Fa. You seem to want these players to make loyalty and 'honourable' reasons for doing what they do when the reality is this and the next 2-3 years is the best theyre ever going to earn for most of them.

How would you be thinking about your current job if all these doors were open all of a sudden but with the knowledge they'll all be closed in 2 or 3 years, including your current position. Some just cant afford the luxury of the moral high ground.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by fa0019 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:50 pm

Taylorman
 
You're right in that he's been open and honest with the ABs. Never signed long contracts thereafter, perhaps due to being burnt before and given notice to coaches of his aspirations. I was speaking of how he left RL to go to Toulon. Mud sticks.

fa0019

Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-26

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:52 pm

The difference with Frans Steyn is that he plays in the NH. At least the NRL season runs alongside the SH union season more or less.

JOC is one who's playing for Toulon and is returning to S15 next year and wants to get back into the Wallabies. He's the type of player I'd be worried about 'poisoning' the environment but I just don't get that at all from SBW once he'd committed his time to union. I think you're reaching if you're claiming he had a negative impact among the other ABs. He was welcomed by Nonu and taken under his wing and was always a consummate professional with the Chiefs, ABs or Crusaders.

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:07 pm

Yes the Chiefs particularly were rapt to have him, understood his verbal promise to return to the NRL and will welcome him back next year, again, back as promised. Amongst the players and team overall hes very well liked and theyre sensitive to the demands on him elsewhere. In terms of the original leaving of the Cowboys to Toulon, yes mud sticks but for many its also water under the bridge, so once again it depends which chair you judge him from.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by fa0019 on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:09 pm

Frans Steyn has been badly advised all throughout his career.
 
He's chased the $$$ throughout in the short term and its probably hurt his long term finances.
 
Went to Europe, pigged out, tried to play European season and bok tests at same time. Played first class rugby 11 months of the year all for the green and his body broke down.
 
Had he sat back and let things come naturally it would have all been different. But sometimes those $$$ signs in front of your eyes are too much.
 
The whole saga we now have with Frans is no surprise to be honest.

fa0019

Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-26

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Taylorman on Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:13 pm

fa0019 wrote:Frans Steyn has been badly advised all throughout his career.
 
He's chased the $$$ throughout in the short term and its probably hurt his long term finances.
 
Went to Europe, pigged out, tried to play European season and bok tests at same time. Played first class rugby 11 months of the year all for the green and his body broke down.
 
Had he sat back and let things come naturally it would have all been different. But sometimes those $$$ signs in front of your eyes are too much.
 
The whole saga we now have with Frans is no surprise to be honest.

just the way it is...but I bet his bank account couldnt be looking better...and unlike you, me, and probably every SA fan, thats HIS priority.

Taylorman

Posts : 10467
Join date : 2011-02-02
Location : Wellington NZ

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by disneychilly on Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:12 am

GunsGerms wrote:
Taylorman wrote:DC's very much a role model for kids here. Hes a regular on our rugby smallblacks show and does a lot of appearances etc where children are concerned. So hes in high demand in that respect. Hes just a little boring outwardly so theres not a lot to talk about other than what we see on the field, and thankfully, thats where his strengths are.

My concern for DC might be what will he do when he retires. Communication is high on the agenda for the usual positions top players take up- coaching, media, comments people. Thats really when DC needs to work on being 'interesting'. He has a lot to share and his knowledge must come back into the game somehow...but just where Im not sure.

I can tell you a few things about what DC got up to the last time NZ visited Ireland. He isnt as squeaky clean as you might think.

I heard his missus isn't either...

disneychilly

Posts : 2156
Join date : 2011-03-23
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:10 am

On the left:
Rugby Players as Role Models Img-2010

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Cyril on Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:13 am

When did this become Heat magazine?

Cyril

Posts : 6546
Join date : 2012-11-17

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by emack2 on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:21 pm

This thread is a joke for the most part the Public and Private images of Players differ
widely.
A young man suddenly in the limelight with money will if inclined go the gals.and high
life route.Most of it will be sorted by the management with a large cheque book or the
infamous 1972/3 Keith Murdoch incident as an example.
The Manager overreacted and sent him into the wilderness,a excellent player lost to
NZ Rugby.
On the 1963 tour a senior player threw his bed from the top story of his hotel down the stairwell just missing the hall porter.
In 1970 in SA the AB`s wanted for nothing booze,babes all laid on by Sa Provinces etc.
that was common on most tours at all levels.
Ron Rangi liberated a bottle of Scotch of a superior quality from his hosts was made
a scapegoat,suspended and never to be picked for AB`s again.
Lions teams among others were named Hotel wreckers in 1968 Sa held contests the
record for cemolishing a bed 12 seconds!!!.
Players like O`Connor,Guildford,Beale,dumped on when with decent management
it would vanish under the carpet as of yore.
I`m not arguing one way or the other but historically the young "rugger hooligans"
end up as the most Conservative of people.

emack2

Posts : 3686
Join date : 2011-04-01
Age : 76
Location : Bournemouth

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by GunsGerms on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Good points Emack. Most beefed up young rugby players have bone head moments. I think it is fair to be accountable for your actions too though without necessarly been thrown completely to the scrap heap. If not rugby players and people in positions of privilige will just become accustomed to getting away with doing whatever they want which isnt ideal.

Wasnt Keith Murdoch a bit of an oddball to start with anyway?


Last edited by GunsGerms on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

GunsGerms

Posts : 12541
Join date : 2011-05-31
Age : 39
Location : Ireland

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by disneychilly on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:22 pm

Reading Duff McKagan's autobiography at the moment. Funny how it's almost demanded of rock musicians but derided in sport.

Moral of the story is, the person is a role model for the reason that gave them a profile. It should be selective-meaning you should take the positivity aspects and ignore the negatives raised by the media in order to create sensationalist headlines.

Also makes me glad I'm not famous. My friends and I, as I'm sure most posters on here, got up to some shenanigans which were silly but harmless enough, but nonetheless would make headlines if anyone of us had a profile.

disneychilly

Posts : 2156
Join date : 2011-03-23
Location : Dublin

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by kiakahaaotearoa on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:33 pm

emack2 wrote:This thread is a joke for the most part the Public and Private images of Players differ
widely.
A young man suddenly in the limelight with money will if inclined go the gals.and high
life route.Most of it will be sorted by the management with a large cheque book or the
infamous 1972/3 Keith Murdoch incident as an example.
The Manager overreacted and sent him into the wilderness,a excellent player lost to
NZ Rugby.
On the 1963 tour a senior player threw his bed from the top story of his hotel down the stairwell just missing the hall porter.
In 1970 in SA the AB`s wanted for nothing booze,babes all laid on by Sa Provinces etc.
that was common on most tours at all levels.
Ron Rangi liberated a bottle of Scotch of a superior quality from his hosts was made
a scapegoat,suspended and never to be picked for AB`s again.
Lions teams among others were named Hotel wreckers in 1968 Sa held contests the
record for cemolishing a bed 12 seconds!!!.
Players like O`Connor,Guildford,Beale,dumped on when with decent management
it would vanish under the carpet as of yore.
I`m not arguing one way or the other but historically the young "rugger hooligans"
end up as the most Conservative of people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w1y-kMPNcM  Hug 

kiakahaaotearoa

Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-11
Location : Madrid

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Cyril on Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:35 pm

Given the thread on Paddy Jackson and his mates I think there are some pretty poor role models in rugby.

Cyril

Posts : 6546
Join date : 2012-11-17

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:02 pm

Cyril wrote:Given the thread on Paddy Jackson and his mates I think there are some pretty poor role models in rugby.

Thanks for marking out the sat nav directions to that Thread, Cyril. Every bloom of righteous indignation needs a helpful road user to direct the traffic that'a way.

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Cyril on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:05 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Given the thread on Paddy Jackson and his mates I think there are some pretty poor role models in rugby.

Thanks for marking out the sat nav directions to that Thread, Cyril.  Every bloom of righteous indignation needs a helpful road user to direct the traffic that'a way.
No problem. Some posters seem to think what Jackson did was ok and just a laugh. I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion.

It's interesting how some people think Ashton's swallow dive is actually worse than blacking up and dressing in chains.

Cyril

Posts : 6546
Join date : 2012-11-17

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:30 pm

Cyril wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:Given the thread on Paddy Jackson and his mates I think there are some pretty poor role models in rugby.

Thanks for marking out the sat nav directions to that Thread, Cyril.  Every bloom of righteous indignation needs a helpful road user to direct the traffic that'a way.
No problem. Some posters seem to think what Jackson did was ok and just a laugh. I guess everyone's entitled to an opinion.

It's interesting how some people think Ashton's swallow dive is actually worse than blacking up and dressing in chains.

Em................ I don't, didn't, wouldn't, couldn't, shouldn't...........................

but... em, just who did think Ashton's diving is the same terrain as Racism 'Accusations'?  Specific names would be helpful here, Cyril, given that Ashtons and Jackson's names get the mention.  And also I specifically highlight the 'accusation' part as it relates to the racism bit.

But.......if we're going to get into silly territory then I'll say, "and why not?"  Why not regard Ashton's dive as the same territory?  Afterall, it was usually during his International duty that he did the dives that got the publicity, he usually offended some followers of the other Nations he was playing against as he did them?????  Was he willfully trying to offend other Nations as he did his dives????? Wink

Think about it.  Maybe he should have been banned afterall!  Maybe I was wrong all along in thinking he's just an eejit like Jackson is and can't help being a cheeky-chappy 'Look at me and me antics!' nincompoop?

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by HammerofThunor on Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:20 pm

Yeah but those offended were only offended because he was English and therefore, ipso facto...rac (they don't get the ist because they're not English)

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Yeah but those offended were only offended because he was English and therefore, ipso facto...rac (they don't get the ist because they're not English)

On the contrary, Hammer Wink ..they very much do get the 'ist' because they are not English. Isn't it the cry of English sports fans (traditionally speaking of course)..... that "everybody is always against us!" So, by definition the entire rest of the world are despicable Ists.

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by HammerofThunor on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:01 am

But I thought only those supporters of the English Premiership could claim 'ist'. Is it that 'est'?

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by SecretFly on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:10 am

English are 'Ests' - the rest of us - and Martians from the 5th dimension inlcuded - are 'Ists' who are eternally against 'Ests'.

The War for Universal Domination between the Est and Ists is about to come upon us. Pray some of us will survive to carry on the species.

SecretFly

Posts : 29540
Join date : 2011-12-13

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by beshocked on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:11 am

kiakahaatorea you underestimate the average fan, let alone the more hardcore.

Rugby players are role models. They must act as so. There are perks to being a good role model - it helps boost your salary/reputation. You become popular and well liked plus you'll have people standing in your corner defending you.

Many supporters - young and old expect their players to hold up the reputation of their club and country. After all it's the supporters who are the ones taking up their time to watch the players,paying to see them and trying to cheer them on. Rugby players will generally be on a higher average salary than those watching them. Plus of course there is sponsorship. Sponsors are paying a lot of money - they need to see the benefits.

It's not just even the fans or sponsors they are playing for - they are playing for the owners of the respective club who are paying their salary.

When a player puts on the shirt of your club or country you have a certain expectation both in terms of performance and their sportsmanship.

I do not feel that fans in general are unfair. Rugby players are in the public eye, they have responsibilities. If they let us down they should get the punishment they deserve.

Most fans defend their players fiercely but no one can do so against the indefensible.

beshocked

Posts : 14849
Join date : 2011-03-08

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by HammerofThunor on Sat Jul 12, 2014 12:26 am

SecretFly wrote:English are 'Ests' - the rest of us - and Martians from the 5th dimension inlcuded - are 'Ists' who are eternally against 'Ests'.

The War for Universal Domination between the Est and Ists is about to come upon us.  Pray some of us will survive to carry on the species.

Got it. What if you're of mixed heritage? Do you have to pick one side or the other, once selected can't be changed unless you represent the other side at the Olympics?

HammerofThunor

Posts : 10471
Join date : 2011-01-29
Location : Hull, England - Originally Potteries

Back to top Go down

Rugby Players as Role Models Empty Re: Rugby Players as Role Models

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 1 of 2 1, 2  Next

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum