England vs India - Second Test - Lords

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 13 Jul 2014, 7:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

Seeming as we have such a short turnaround thought I'd stick up a thread

England have added Simon Kerrigan to the squad interestingly. I'd imagine he must be in serious contention, or else what's the point of adding another body?
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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:16 pm

By England teams standards this is a particularly pathetically weak mental unit.

Everytime they get to a position of relative strength they fall apart.

Cook has to fall on his sword as captain. Prior isn't up to scratch with gloves or bat. Stokes isn't ready for a recall. Bell hasn't made a contribution in a while.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:17 pm

Chin up - England were one down with three to play in the last series between these two, and ended up winning the series!

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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:18 pm

Fair play to India and Sharma they bowled to a plan and executed it.

But when you need 100 runs in 2 sessions, and its telegraphed that its going to be short, losing wickets like that is simply inexcusable at this level.
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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:23 pm

GSC wrote:Fair play to India and Sharma they bowled to a plan and executed it.

I was thinking the same thing. He has copped lots of criticism over the years but full credit to him for hanging in there, sharpening his approach and bowling with more control... only the odd loose one. Sharma and Kumar have been a cut above the rest in this Test and have deserved their 6fers.
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:25 pm

GSC wrote:Fair play to India and Sharma they bowled to a plan and executed it.

But when you need 100 runs in 2 sessions, and its telegraphed that its going to be short, losing wickets like that is simply inexcusable at this level.

Prior was excusable in that he is mentally shot, but for Stokes to come in a get out the way he did was atrocious and then for Root to follow is almost laughable.

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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:27 pm

Duty281 wrote:Chin up - England were one down with three to play in the last series between these two, and ended up winning the series!

 Laugh 
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:27 pm

These two rotating the strike well.

One run, into the next, and onwards to glory! 107 to win.

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Post by mystiroakey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:27 pm

just smash the nuts of the ball lads. go down with some fight

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:29 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
trebellbobaggins wrote:where do they go from here? do they even have the options coming through to just throw it out and start with a new team as Eng did in rugby?

Yes because the young ones are doing fine.

Buttler, root, Ali, ballance are showing the others up every time they play.

If we can't rely on bell, prior and cook why have them

they have to go. this series is gone anyway with this shower so make every change they need to make and start again.

for a minute I imagined we'd not been Poopie at cricket for a short while, must have been a dream.

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Post by alfie on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:31 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Game over

I was ahead of you  Smile 

But not by much.

Pity Root did that. Silly end to a fine innings. Guess he lost his head seeing his teammates self destructing.

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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:32 pm

T'was a breath of fresh air; not a dream, trebs.

Oh dear, another one. Hope it's all over before midnight here. 28 minutes...
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:33 pm

Sharma's having a marvellous day; rather disappointed in Broad, though.

Time for Burnley's Brian Lara!

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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:34 pm

Guttless, pathetic, time for change.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:35 pm

This is no time for change. Persevere. Remain stoic and resolute.

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Post by alfie on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:36 pm

Duty281 wrote:Chin up - England were one down with three to play in the last series between these two, and ended up winning the series!

Absolutely ! Were getting kicked to death in the press - and all over the Internet - then too.

Tricky this time though , as they are trying to rebuild ; and most of the experienced hands are out of form. Certainly hope they are less prone to panic in the England camp than the watchers on here. Back to basics I say. India are worthy winners here , but they are nothing too special.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:38 pm

Awful. Rest each of Broad and Anderson for at least a test, drop Prior and Bell, hard call on Cook, lower Stokes down the order
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Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:41 pm

Probably keep Cook as opening is an area we've struggled to find players
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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:42 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Awful. Rest each of Broad and Anderson for at least a test, drop Prior and Bell, hard call on Cook, lower Stokes down the order


I agree drop Bell and Prior, rest Broad and Anderson. But I'd stripe Cook of the Captaincy and drop him to No3.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:45 pm

Not sure where all of these players are going to come from to replace the vast numbers that some people on here wish to drop.

And I really don't think throwing a mass of inexperienced players into the equation, and asking one to captain, will really solve the issue.

There's no doubting the likes of Cook and Prior have class, it's just they're out of form. Form is only temporary.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:45 pm

Way OTT reaction here by people. The new faces in the team have done pretty well and five minutes before luch today England way have been going slight favourites to win the test. Sure things have fallen apart but when the defeat comes it has been a pretty narrow one and that is with Cook, Bell and Prior being woefully out of form.
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Post by alfie on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:46 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Awful. Rest each of Broad and Anderson for at least a test, drop Prior and Bell, hard call on Cook, lower Stokes down the order

Bat him last you mean ?  Smile  They're not going to drop Cook or Bell. Resting one of the main bowlers is probably something they can't afford at one down. Though if Broad is carrying an injury they may have to.

Always easy to say drop so and so . But you have to replace them ...

It has been disappointing. But in truth India have had their hands on this since those late wickets fell on day two. Just a rather spectacular fold up at the death.

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Post by alfie on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:48 pm

All done .

Well played India  clap 

All this navel gazing , you can forget the other team is doing its best to win too...full credit to Dhoni and his men.

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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:50 pm

So lets keep the same old names and keep losing then!  Headscratch 

That is not an option anymore imo, the Coach has to be ruthless and stamp his authority on this team.
those who don't want to step up to the plate don't derserve to hold onto their Test place anymore.

Enough is enough.

Bring back KP and well played INDIA thumbsup 
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:50 pm

Well played India. clap

Third Test starts on a Sunday?! In Southampton? Well I never!

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:51 pm

Scrumpy wrote:So lets keep the same old names and keep losing then!  Headscratch 

That is not an option anymore imo, the Coach has to be ruthless and stamp his authority on this team.
those who don't want to step up to the plate don't derserve to hold onto their Test place anymore.

Enough is enough.

Bring back KP and well played INDIA thumbsup 

Please post your team for the Third Test.

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Post by subhranshu.kumar.5 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:54 pm

1124 days, since India won an overseas test. Cherishing!!!Cherishing!!! I am wordless.
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Post by trebellbobaggins on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:55 pm

Congrats India.

This will be heavy series win for you.

As for Eng. Start again, new coach , new players.

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Post by kingdaveeagle on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 2:58 pm

Drop Stokes - 3 innings, 0 runs - bring back Jordan who did nothing wrong.

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Post by trebellbobaggins on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:01 pm

Agnew will be happy anyway. Never happier than when he can smugly comment on how poor England are.

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Post by alfie on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:04 pm

Scrumpy wrote:So lets keep the same old names and keep losing then!  Headscratch 

That is not an option anymore imo, the Coach has to be ruthless and stamp his authority on this team.
those who don't want to step up to the plate don't derserve to hold onto their Test place anymore.

Enough is enough.

Bring back KP and well played INDIA thumbsup 

Sorry Scrumpy but that just sounds like a string of meaningless cliches. And KP won't be coming back.

Sure they need to make some changes ; but selection of teams is based on logic , not emotion. Or it should be.

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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:07 pm

Cook has to step down. He can't get out of this rut while captaining. Take the pressure out of his hands, bring in Hales.

Drop Prior for Read or Foster. Suspect Bell would be a short term captain, even if his form is awful.

Jordan to replace Stokes.
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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:08 pm

Listening to Cook its easy to understand why we are in this mess.

He has no understanding of what he has just witnessed and his believe in his mates will be his undoing.
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Post by Scrumpy on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:27 pm

Well said Boycott.

Listen to the TMS podcast later Duty!
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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:29 pm

Moores has backed Cook, which makes it very tough for the ECB to do anything.

A convenient "injury" wouldn't hurt
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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:32 pm

Struggle to see Prior and Stokes retained for the 3rd test though.

India played well, gutted out tough moments and showed resilience.

England just cannot keep throwing away moments when they get ahead in the game.
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Post by kingraf on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:42 pm

Firing Cook is poor form. His captaincy is going through k sophomore slump, following. Michael Clarke went through it, From the South Africa 2012 series to the English Ashes, His team played four series, and lost three. A bit like KP for Cook, he made a very firm decision on Katich, one which seemed horrendous, when Cowan was the opening bat, but look at where they are now. Same with South Africa, 2004-2006, we lost to India, England (at home), got trounced by Australia, and cleaned up in Sri Lanka. Cook is not the first, and he won't be the last. Not everyone is blessed with an ATG team like Ponting.
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Post by JDizzle on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 3:58 pm

If Stokes is batting 8, then his primary job is to bowl. Admittedly his batting form is worse than atrocious, but he's bowling well and is a better bowler than Jordan for me.

Another start uncoverted by Moeen, admittedly done by a very good piece of bowling, is a worry though.

Cook is done, he needs to be relieved. His position is nigh on untenable now, Prior is also done. I'd prefer Read in as (c), but bringing Buttler in wouldn't upset me. Broad needs a rest, is one Test enough though? Jordan in for him.

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Post by KP_fan on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:01 pm

Well it wasn't that easy as I thouhg it might be last night...
But in the end the end came so fast....like we were watching the highlights package.....the Eng team imploded......my finer details on the game and near future as follows:

1) Mediocre teams go through extended lean patches as they rebuild....and India is turning the corner.
dhoni has learnt the lessons......and the players he backed delivered...Jadeja and ishant.

2) Binny will not play again......if on this pitch which seamed and swung and had variable bounce......dhoni is not confident enough to bowl him.......then that's the end for Binny.
Tough fighting cricketer.........had a chance yesterday to hang on if he delivered a 50 when promoted ahead of Jadeja........but couldn't inspite of right intentions fell to a great catch.

he got two LBWs going over the top also...but tough luck..that's about it for Binny and test cricket.

2) Until yesterday I would have thought Rohit walks back into the 11 as number 6 batsman and part time spinner.

But Jadeja even on this pitch did not pick up wickets.....that is terrible...as the frontline and only spinner.....he had to take 3 to 4 wickets after bowling a million overs that he has.

so now Ashwin will have to come in..........it's a no brainer.

3) Dhoni gets the credit for learning his lessons......slowly, the tough way.......stubbornly backing those he believed in.....and also learnt he cannot blast out opponents with this attack but have to rather wear them out patiently.

he still needs to plug the few holes...i.e spin and see how long more with Dhawan as an opener.
Ashwin might come in immediately and dhawan gets two more tests

4) Eng need to make only one change.....replace Cook as a captain but retain him as a batsman...he cannot turn a bad batsman suddenly...just not working on his batting...as captaincy pre-occupies him.

5) rest all is OK.....Mooen is doing OK with ball and not bad with bat......for stokes they have a ready replacement in jordan and another in Woakes...so they are lucky
and Eng should bring in Butler.......throw the youngsters in when they are at the peak of their game....and he cannot drop more than 3 catches that prior drops per inning.
If he keeps wickets for his County side....then this " not ready yet" business is not wise.

leadership / coherence / strategy / mental toughness is more what Eng needs much more than selection of the playing eleven.
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:12 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Well said Boycott.

Listen to the TMS podcast later Duty!

Team for the Third Test, Scrumpy?

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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:18 pm

What I'd like to see:
Hales
Robson
Ballance
Bell
Root
Ali
Read (c)
Jordan
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson

What it'll be:
Cook
Robson
Ballance
Bell
Root
Ali
Read
Jordan
Broad
Plunkett
Anderson
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Post by kingraf on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:24 pm

The English don't half demand knee-jerk reactions, ey?
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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:26 pm

The thing is, it isn't really knee jerk. The England team has been on a downwards slope for a year or so now, and are only getting worse.
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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:29 pm

I went away for a while after the first over after lunch, came back and first went to cricinfo fearing yet another unlikely partnership has developed to snatch the game away from India, that first session didn't go right at all up to the last ball.
Then I saw India have finished it off in style while I was away. And it was Ishant Sharma who is the hero!. The same old Ishant who promised a lot before torchering us for some 6 years now, who did not look all that convincing even after a couple of solid performances in New Zealand. A 7for for Ishant, and England had an almighty collapse and played the short ball like the Indian sides of the 90s!.
An overseas test win after almost 1500 days, that too at the HQ where it all started going wrong 3 years ago!. Most certainly a moment to cherish.

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Post by kingraf on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:35 pm

Like I said, England aren't the first team to struggle a bit. The world's #1 Test team lost seven out nine before the Australian Ashes. They kept the faith with a lot of guys I suspect would have been dropped in the English setup (Rogers/Carberry) or many here would be calling to go (Clarke as captain, Warner, Watson).
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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:37 pm

India have won after being put into bat on a green pitch where the ball was doing a lot on the first day. They posted an above par 295, thanks to a fabulous hundred from Ajinkya Rahane that was built on the foundation provided by Murali Vijay and Cheteshwar Pujara though they couldn't score too many runs. Bhuvneshwar Kumar, who participated in a 90 run 8th wicket partnership with Rahane then edged his name on the Lord's board with a 6for, before repeating the performance with the bat in the 2nd innings with a 99 run partnership for the 8th wicket, this time with a brave Ravindra Jadeja. Murali Vijay missed his ton at the HQ by 5 runs in the 2nd innings, but he has a test win to cherish all his life. And then came Ishant who capped it all with a 7for.
Bhuvneshwar the man of the match for me, but Rahane, Vijay, Jadeja, Ishant, all stepped up at crucial moments and pulled the team from behind and set up a fine fine win.


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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:41 pm

Ravichandran Ashwin in for Stuart Binny for the next game and to bat 6ahead of Dhoni. Gives them 5 proper bowlers, and is a better batting option than FTB Rohit. Besides, despite his best efforts and determination, MSD's technique is creating problems for him as a number 6 batsman, he's better off at 7.

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Post by ChequeredJersey on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 4:45 pm

alfie wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Awful. Rest each of Broad and Anderson for at least a test, drop Prior and Bell, hard call on Cook, lower Stokes down the order

Bat him last you mean ?  Smile  They're not going to drop Cook or Bell.  Resting one of the main bowlers is probably something they can't afford at one down. Though if Broad is carrying an injury they may have to.

Always easy to say drop so and so .  But you have to replace them ...

It has been disappointing. But in truth India have had their hands on this since those late wickets fell on day two.  Just a rather spectacular fold up at the death.

Buttler or Read, Woakes, Jordan, Finn, all spring to mind. Replacements for Bell are a little harder
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 5:19 pm

GSC wrote:The thing is, it isn't really knee jerk. The England team has been on a downwards slope for a year or so now, and are only getting worse.

No win in ten tests.
Lost eight of those ten
Lost an early home series to Sri Lanka
Now lost to an Indian side that hadnt won away in what, 3/4 years? On a green top as well.

Fair to say this isn't knee jerk.

I don't see how keeping things the same will produce any different. If Prior plays the next game I'm gonna hit the roof
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 5:24 pm

And Moores has started off this reign, just like he ended his last.

I know its early, but I'm a little uneasy
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 5:34 pm

I think England will still win this series. The corner will gradually be turned, and I think it'll be a 2-1 win to the home side.

At odds of at least 4/1 to win the series, I think it's fair game for a lump on.

I don't think we should make any changes, unless Broad is injured, of course, in which case Jordan should come back in.

Victory will manifest itself out of preserverance, by perfect discipline and just that ounce of luck which has certainly been lacking.

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