England vs India - Second Test - Lords

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Sun 13 Jul 2014, 7:40 pm

First topic message reminder :

Seeming as we have such a short turnaround thought I'd stick up a thread

England have added Simon Kerrigan to the squad interestingly. I'd imagine he must be in serious contention, or else what's the point of adding another body?
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Post by kingraf on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 6:21 pm

Olly wrote:
GSC wrote:The thing is, it isn't really knee jerk. The England team has been on a downwards slope for a year or so now, and are only getting worse.

No win in ten tests.
Lost eight of those ten
Lost an early home series to Sri Lanka
Now lost to an Indian side that hadnt won away in what, 3/4 years? On a green top as well.

Fair to say this isn't knee jerk.

I don't see how keeping things the same will produce any different. If Prior plays the next game I'm gonna hit the roof

But things arent staying the same, are they? Robson came in, Ballance, Ali, Stokes was persevered with, Bell went down one, Plunkett brought back in. Jordan twice capped. There really isn't much more that you can do before a rescue mission becomes a kamikaze one.
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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 6:41 pm

An interesting bit from the Indian skipper's response after the match.
"Dhoni had special praise for Jadeja, saying he could make up for India's shortage of seam-bowling allrounders if he believed in himself more. "I think the more Test cricket he plays, the more runs he gets, he will get more and more confidence, and slowly will turn into a proper Test batsman. I think his technique is very good, but he is someone who, at times, doubts himself more than anyone else. We have been cribbing about the lack of a seaming allrounder, especially when we need one outside India, I think Jadeja is someone who can contribute but also R Ashwin who can bat in Test cricket. Whatever resources we have, it is high time we talk about the ones we have got, rather than about the ones we don't have.".
So Ashwin for Binny is confirmed, Skip?

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Post by Gerry SA on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:10 pm

msp83 wrote:An interesting bit from the Indian skipper's response after the match.
"Dhoni had special praise for Jadeja, saying he could make up for India's shortage of seam-bowling allrounders if he believed in himself more. "I think the more Test cricket he plays, the more runs he gets, he will get more and more confidence, and slowly will turn into a proper Test batsman. I think his technique is very good, but he is someone who, at times, doubts himself more than anyone else. We have been cribbing about the lack of a seaming allrounder, especially when we need one outside India, I think Jadeja is someone who can contribute but also R Ashwin who can bat in Test cricket. Whatever resources we have, it is high time we talk about the ones we have got, rather than about the ones we don't have.".
So Ashwin for Binny is confirmed, Skip?
Going forward MSP

India should be looking to play Jadeja, Ashwin and Bhuvneshwar in all Test matches home or away.

They are 3 proper all rounders. Coming in at 7/8/9 it gives Dhoni so many options.

I think Dhoni should consider Aaron for Southampton in place of Shami.

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Post by Liam on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:12 pm

Those short ball dismissals were club cricket standard. With field settings like that with two men out on the hook, surely you don't try and hook it in the air straight down their necks! Just reckless batting without any thought towards the match situation. The scars of the Ashes tour were plain to see today. You could sense the fear and, taking nothing away from Ishant who bowled superbly, he's nowhere near the pace and intensity of Johnson etc.

Senior players aren't scoring runs and leaving it to players who are early in their test careers. Broad and Anderson have been poor with the ball and for me, one of them needs to be rested the next test, probably broad as his pace is well down and looks like he may be carrying an injury.

Just a complete mess at the moment. I'm part of the 'Bring back KP' clang but he should at least be playing county cricket and racking up some hundreds rather than just simply tweeting.

Changes that have to be made for the next test:

Buttler for Prior
Jordan for Broad

I'd stick with Stokes. He's raw and although he's had 6 ducks in 12 innings he offers more than enough with the ball and has shown signs in Australia of his batting skills, especially when under pressure.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:22 pm

If Stokes plays, he has to come up the order. Hedid that in Australia where he batted ahead of Priorwith some success. Give him the added responsibility. He has had a very difficult time with the bat, but has shown enough promise with the ball alone to give him another go.

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Post by msp83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:23 pm

Any idea about the general nature of the Southampton pitch by the way?

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Post by Liam on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:25 pm

Agreed msp, especially if *looks to the heavens and puts hands together* Buttler get's the nod, Stokes moves up to 7 and Buttler at 8. Not sure on Southampton, not as much pace as this lord's wicket I'm sure on that.

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Post by GSC on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:26 pm

A guy with 6 ducks in 10 innings and no double digit scores shouldn't be moving up past 11.
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Post by kingraf on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:30 pm

I really don't know about Stokes. Yeah he scored a hundred vs Johnson and co., but was it really a trying hundred? Just seemed to me that to degree, Australia weren't really bothered by it, as there was the small fact that wickets where tumbling at one end. It's a bit harsh, but I compare it to Oscar's goal vs Germany in the WC, not a gimme, but so what?
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:47 pm

Stokes has actually been arguably our best seamer so far weirdly, bowled on a good length and with good speed throughout.

It is weird to say move him up the order, but what Liam said is what I'd advocate. Stokes 7, Buttler 8. I could see him going the way of Broad, in that he becomes a front line bowler who can bat a bit.

My team for the next test

Cook
Robson
Ballance
Bell (last chance saloon)
Root (C)
Ali
Stokes
Buttler (WK)
Jordan
Plunkett
Anderson

I'd rest Broad who clearly isn't fit and bring in Jordan. Prior goes out and Buttler comes in (personally don't see the point in picking a Read).
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Post by Duty281 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:49 pm

Does anyone support Michael Vaughan's idea that Morgan should come in at 6 and be made captain?

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Post by JDizzle on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 7:58 pm

Duty281 wrote:Does anyone support Michael Vaughan's idea that Morgan should come in at 6 and be made captain?

Not really. He's scored runs in the CC this year and kudos to him for that, but who does he come in for? He can't open, so not Cook or Robson. Ballance, Root and Ali are nailed on. Bell gets the series you think, so who does he come in for?

And is he really proven as that good a captain to walk back in as one? He's done alright when he's done it for England, but I've never thought of him as a nailed on pretender for it.

And what do you do if he can't hack Test cricket with the bat? Chris Read in as WK is a better option if want to go the short term captaincy route.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 8:18 pm

I am a Scotsman but like to think I know a decent amount about cricket so this is my opinion on things.

First of all India won this test purely because they took advantage of advantageous situations more than England. England looked to be on top on several occasions but couldn't drive home that advantage but at least they got into those positions in the first place - it would be more worrying if they never got on top.

As for the opinions on who should be axed well I think the call for Cook to be axed is plain daft. Look at his career stats - mind-blowingly good so you don't cast aside one with stats that stand alongside England legends of the past. Sure he is in a terrible run of form but it happens to everyone - even the best. I do not think axing him would help but more compound matters by shattering what little confidence he has left and may take far longer to refind his touch. In my opinion the only way is to let him find his form by keeping him in the side. Matt Prior is another matter I reckon as there are candidates waiting in the wings and deserving a chance and so I would drop Prior and bring in a replacement. Stokes (like Cook) not so long go was the bees knees of the tour down under but his batting has been dreadful so far and that is a big part of his game so I would being Jordan back in as he offered just as much with the ball and much more with the bat.

One last thing - this test once more demonstrated India's farcical stance against DRS. I lost count how many wrong decisions were given here and some were pivotal in the way this match developed. Sorry India but if you don't like DRS - TOUGH is what I say. A pathetic stance by them but still congrats on winning the test.
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Post by JDizzle on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 8:24 pm

Someone on James Taylor's twitter, or is he just tired of KP's rubbish:

@jamestaylor20: @KP24 That's why you're #kpgenius buddy. Swanny & Nick Knight said my innings was better anyway ... #JTgenius

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Post by Liam on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 8:27 pm

I've always liked Morgan, not so much in the Test arena though. Think that's mainly due to him hardly playing any county championship games but he's scored runs this season, credit to him. Avg over 50 is a good return. Anyone else think maybe Hales could be a possibility in the future? avg over 50 also this year and has a high score in the 180's?

Morgan also brings experience and has captained England before. Now that I think of it, maybe not such a left field selection but for me, he needs to be brought in and show form with the bat rather than all at once. What happens if he comes in as captain and doesn't score any runs?

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 8:54 pm

"@CricketMirror: Matt Prior is going to step back from Eng team for the rest of the summer due to injury. Achilles op likely. Story on mirror online shortly"

You've had a wonderful career Matt. One summer too far unfortunately. Time for Mr buttler
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Post by Liam on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:06 pm

Credit to Prior. Took the decision out of the selectors and cook's hands. A fantastic player who's time had come to an end. He's got England out of many a messes over the years and could easily have been in the team on his batting alone.

Like Olly said, Buttler now the man to take the gloves. Get the feeling they'll play it safe with a Read or a Foster. Cook doesn't seem to like Buttler. Will be a farce if he isn't called into the side.

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Post by Nakatomi Plaza on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:14 pm

How good's Buttler's keeping? I haven't heard great things about it. If Cook was in any kind of form I'd pick the best gloveman in the country, which is Foster. The skipper's poor form makes this an even harder decision.

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Post by Gerry SA on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:14 pm

All this clamour over Buttler is unjustified.

England need a w/k whom will take all the chances offered up.

Buttler isn't a Test class keeper. England don't need a guy who'll come out and slog 30-40-50.

They need a leader figure. That mans Chris Read.

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Post by Hoggy_Bear on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:23 pm

Gerry SA wrote:All this clamour over Buttler is unjustified.

England need a w/k whom will take all the chances offered up.

Buttler isn't a Test class keeper. England don't need a guy who'll come out and slog 30-40-50.

They need a leader figure. That mans Chris Read.

He could come in as skipper as well Smile 

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 9:27 pm

If we're bringing in the best gloveman than it's simple, you pick James foster

I wouldn't go that route, I'd go the buttler route but I wouldn't be against the other route (although it'll be buttler considering he was called up as backup before Trent bridge)
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Post by Liam on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 10:30 pm

yeh if you for glove man it's foster hands down, been the best for many a year now. Not bad with the bat either, but for me, it's time to go all out for youth and go with buttler. Time to be brave, but also time for Cook and imo, Bell especially, to step up and score some runs.

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Post by Hood83 on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 11:18 pm

trebellbobaggins wrote:Agnew will be happy anyway.  Never happier than when he can smugly comment on how poor England are.

THANK YOU. Someone else. Although I'd say even more predictable has been his usual 'Cook has to be persevered with' - he talked him up, slagged off others, and cannot admit he's been wrong. Cannot stand the man.

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Post by guildfordbat on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 11:50 pm

Look away, Alfie.

"He's at the moment I think the best wicket keeper batsman in the country" - Alastair Cook this afternoon talking about Matt Prior.

Do we need any more evidence as to how out of touch the selectors and their captain are?

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Post by JDizzle on Mon 21 Jul 2014, 11:54 pm

So that's pretty much the end of Matt Prior's Test career. Whilst it's ended in mire, it is important to remember that he was genuinely a superb WK/Batsman, one of the best in the world at a point and certainly one of the best England have ever produced. Now is the time to go though.

It seems as though Alastair will be captain in Southampton, so in that case I'd pick Jos Buttler. He's the best batsman of the young keepers, he's proven he can play International bowling albeit in LOI cricket and he deserves his go. I would have liked to have seen Read as skipper, but not to fussed by this. As ahs been mentioned, he's not going to be doing much keeping to spin and if Eng do play a proper spinner it will be one he is used to keeping to.

Broad needs a break to, as Anderson will probably be getting an enforced one soon, so Jordan in for him too. Taylor deserves to be in purely for his trolling of KP tonight. Genuis. #JTGenius, I guess this sort of confirms the abuse of Taylor vs SA at Headingley happened. What an absolute goon Kevin is.

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:08 am

Evening all,

I'm back. I must apologise for the lengthy absence. At first I was busy, then to be honest I got lazy. I have missed much, so you must forgive me if I make many points which have already been covered.

So after the ashes people rightly said England needed to change tack. There are arguments over whether Moores was the right person to help them do that (IMO not, but now he's there he deserves a bit longer). Having said England need a fresh approach I do believe 4 matches may be a bit short lived to draw any major conclusions. If England are to "rebuild" then it won't happen overnight, and fans and the media should probably acknowledge that and not expect them to suddenly turn into an unbeatable side within a few months.

This is not a poor Indian side. They have collectively a pretty good batting unit for foreign conditions: Vijay has surprised me with the solidity of his technique, whilst the middle order of Pujara, Kohli (even if struggling at the moment) and Rahane are all technically very good players. Dhawan is a bit more dashing and Dhoni still has his issues, but it is not a bad batting line-up at all. The bowling line-up has the excellent Kumar, the under-rated Shami and the inconsistent Sharma. When Sharma fires that is not bad either.

More importantly it is a young Indian side who haven't been scarred by all those overseas defeats. They went to SA and performed creditably (they were only really defeated by some world class Steyn efforts, which can happen to anyone). It should come as no surprise to anyone that they are not a walkover.

As for England they have some good players and are playing some good cricket. It reminds me a bit of Australia a couple of years ago when they did a lot of stuff pretty well, and then a few things very badly and basically lost matches through the odd dreadful passage of play. England are doing similarly with the odd collapse both in batting and bowling. It is a symptom of a side playing with fear and little confidence, and uncertain as to how to go about things.

It is not all doom and gloom. I have been reasonably impressed with Robson who looks compact. I think he has to reassess which balls he can drive at and which he should be leaving outside off, but there is a lot to like about his game.

Ballance seems to have found a natural place at 3, and whoever first had the idea of batting him there deserves a bit of credit. He has some technical issues (he gets a bit too far across on off-stump for my liking) and needs to find a way of keeping the scoreboard ticking over with singles when playing himself in, but again he has performed creditably. His fielding has improved significantly since the winter.

Root looks the golden boy again. He has made some technical adjustments. I think he is a natural number 5 or 6 - he understands how to switch gears and bat with the tail so well, and that is not something you can easily teach. England should resist moving him much further up the order - Mike Hussey rarely batted above 5 (he batted 4 for a bit and opened a couple of times)...

Moeen Ali I am slightly less convinced about. He does a lot of things pretty well but at times makes mistakes which you wouldn't expect from a decent club cricketer. Such as his dismissal today: yes it was a good short ball, but it was the last ball before lunch, he should have known it was coming and in all honesty it wasn't a hard ball to duck. Or failing that take it on the body. Great though his hundred at Headingley was, Anderson faced pretty much half the balls during their stand. Compare and contrast with Root and Anderson at TB. Harder of course for Moeen but he should have been a bit more proactive. It's hard to explain, but I don't feel he's got the cricketing brain of an international.

Surprised people are calling for Stokes to be dropped. He has at times looked England's best bowler this series, and certainly outbowled Plunkett (whose performance on the opening day was IMO perhaps chiefly responsible for England's troubles). Of course he's not scoring any runs at all, but he's worth his place as a bowler alone currently IMO.

Plunkett has been up and down. He does seem to lack consistency, and I agree with the assessment that he went back to banging it in short because he couldn't find a rythm bowling line and length. England could really do with a holding 4th seamer if they have Stokes, Anderson and Broad. Who that is I don't yet know. Woakes maybe?

Prior has been a tremendous servant to English cricket. I supported him being brought back into the side on the basis that Buttler wasn't yet ready and Prior would be important as an old-head helping with the transition. Clearly that hasn't worked out, but it was still probably the right call at the time. Debating his replacement is fairly pointless - it will almost certainly be Buttler. Calls for specialist glovemen are misguided - that ship has sailed, whether you agree or not. If there was somebody with international experience who could bat (Read can't, at test level anyway) I would go with that and give Buttler a year or two more of county cricket, but I don't see it. Davies would be the only other option I'd consider, but I don't think England will.

I leave Cook for last. I think Steve Waugh got it right when he commented that Cook should stop captaining for the pundits. Cook really has to go away and be the captain he wants to be, not the captain others want him to be. If that means England bowl conventional lines and set conventional fields so be it. In fact, I believe all this "creative captaincy" thing is really very much overblown - Clarke became a much better captain when he stopped setting creative fields for the sake of it (rewatch the Ashes - apart from the odd leg-slip to Johnson, and the mid-wickets to Pietersen most if not all the fields are conventional). There are essentially two times for creative fields:
- if you have a genuine plan (e.g. 2 mid-wickets to Pietersen) based on your strengths and the opponent's weakness;
- if the game is slipping away and you need to do something as a bluff (generally in this case you've lost anyway)

The rest of the time conventional fields are fine - there is a reason why people use them more often, it's because generally they work!

Cook's captaincy is affecting his batting though, and his batting is probably not helping his captaincy. It may be England need a change of personnel, but who?

When rebuilding you need a blend of youth and some experienced hands. Australia showed that when they had the likes of Rogers, Clarke, Haddin and co helping the younger guns of Warner, Smith etc. England have got that mostly right IMO, but the big issue is really the experienced hands in Cook, Bell, Prior and to a lesser extent Anderson and Broad aren't performing that well. Bell in particular isn't holding the middle-order together as you would hope. There's no miracle solution. BY and large these are the best players, and there are no real old seasoned pros who could shore things up (Onions maybe as a bowler? he's about the only one I can think of...).

There has been some criticism of the way England played after lunch, much of it justified. Having just watched the highlights I am willing to cut Prior some slack. He clearly wanted to counter-attack much like Jadeja did with such success. It was IMO worth a shot given the batting still to come if it failed. I was less amused with Stokes though. Root just played the shot poorly, it was there to be hit.

As for India it will be interesting to see if they can sustain this. Kohli is due some runs and Pujara won't keep getting in then getting out so they actually have a bit in the tank. I admit to not really getting the point of Binny.

I wish to conclude this comeback post by talking about the commentary during this test. It is some of the worst I have ever listened to on Sky. The message here is that the game has moved on. If any coach started coaching the way the commentators commentate he would be out of a (non-)job very quickly, that is how irrelevant what some of their ramblings have become. Commentators should strive to stay up to date.

The case in point is this whole "bowl full" thing. England were a tad short and especially too wide in the first session, however this clamour for the bowlers to run up and bowl drive balls is just rubbish. A drive ball is still a drive ball even on a green top, and almost all of the drive balls in this test were duly driven, often to the boundary, even by tail enders. Apart from Dhoni in the first innings I cannot think of a wicket which was from a genuinely full delivery; most were on a length. One of the features of modern test cricket is how easily players hit through the line and put the full ball away nowadays. The complete failure of the likes of Mrrs Botham, Holding and Lloyd in particular to understand this should be a source of shame to them and the company that employs them.

The reason I am wording this so strongly is because it is damaging. There will be a lot of youngsters watching, listening and taking notice of the nonsense which is being spoken - I have had a cricketer now ask me whether it is a good idea to move mid-off to third-man as Lloyd suggested in the first test.

The commentators IMO have a duty to remain up to date and provide genuine insight rather than falling back on old-fashioned views and platitudes. It's high time that Lloyd, Botham and Holding were told to wise up or go elsewhere.

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Post by Mike Selig on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:11 am

I have of course not mentioned KP. It is pointless. Whatever you make of the situation (and I make plenty of it) it is time to move on.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:19 am

JD - I agree Prior "was a genuinely superb WK / Batsman". Unfortunately, the word "was" (ie past tense) is very relevant. It doesn't detract from the tremendous service Prior has given but there's no way he merited a Test place this summer. He wasn't ready or fit enough. Sadly, he's one of the reasons why England lost a series to Sri Lanka and are one down to India.

My view after the Ashes debacle was to play Read or Foster this summer only so as to give Buttler time to develop. Now it seems as if Buttler will be thrown in before he's properly ready.

All in all, another fine mess and one which many saw coming.

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:26 am

Mike - not sure if a young rebel can be a sly old fox but you masterfully sneaked into the henhouse then when I was posting to JD - welcome back! I'll review your characteristically comprehensive post in a bit.

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Post by jimbohammers on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:43 am

Seem to remember a few Indian posters laughing and mocking Ishant Sharma's ability, gone a little quiet on that front.....

I think Cook needs to step down as captain. He needs to concentrate on his batting and scoring crucial runs for England. His mind is scrambled, we need fresh ideas in my opinion. Haven't been at all convinced by Robson. There is no better alternative in County cricket, that is actually English?

I would personally give Woakes a game. Seems to be highly rated within the England setup, so give him a chance. Stokes looks shot of confidence right now.

I would consider a spinner at the Ageas Bowl, where there is always something on offer. They have added Kerrigan to the squad, so they must be thinking of playing him? In my opinion I don't think he is good enough, would have liked to seen Briggs or Rashid given a chance.

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Post by JDizzle on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:51 am

guildfordbat wrote: JD - I agree Prior "was a genuinely superb WK / Batsman". Unfortunately, the word "was" (ie past tense) is very relevant. It doesn't detract from the tremendous service Prior has given but there's no way he merited a Test place this summer. He wasn't ready or fit enough. Sadly, he's one of the reasons why England lost a series to Sri Lanka and are one down to India.

My view after the Ashes debacle was to play Read or Foster this summer only so as to give Buttler time to develop. Now it seems as if Buttler will be thrown in before he's properly ready.

All in all, another fine mess and one which many saw coming.

I was very much in the Prior camp for picking him this summer as I felt he had done enough to deserve another go in the side and as there was (is) no-one banging the door down I believed that the experience and nous Prior could impart on a young side could be very helpful, even if he were never to return to the peak of his powers. However, it's been clear throughout this summer that he is not fit, and this should always have been the first thing that they discussed when recalling him. Now we have a right royal mess, not helped by Cook's comments (as you already flagged) that Prior is still the best WK-bat in England. Whilst not only being wrong at this moment, it does Buttler no help if he is to be the man called upon. 'Welcome to the team Jos, just remember you're neither ready nor the best we have. Enjoy.'

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Post by invisiblecoolers on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:24 am

Duty281 wrote:I think England will still win this series. The corner will gradually be turned, and I think it'll be a 2-1 win to the home side.

At odds of at least 4/1 to win the series, I think it's fair game for a lump on.

I don't think we should make any changes, unless Broad is injured, of course, in which case Jordan should come back in.

Victory will manifest itself out of preserverance, by perfect discipline and just that ounce of luck which has certainly been lacking.

 laughing 

I know you are a die hard supporter of all English sports, the fact is the current English team is a below average team and so is Indian team.

I would put it this way an average team beat an below average team, expecting the below average team to win 4-1 and citing unluck as the reason for loss is taking way too far.

When was the last time you saw an Indian team [let alone an ordinary Indian team] come with so much so much confident of winning an overseas test series?  Laugh 

If 2-1 for England is your prediction get ready for series shocks ahead, certainly won't happen [I even doubt England would win a match and the winless streak to continue to record heights].  Hug 

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Post by king_carlos on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 4:22 am

Buttler is a huge talent but let's please not forget that he had to move county in order to get the gloves in CC games. Kieswetter was ahead of him at Somerset for a reason and it also feels pertinent to point out many felt that his keeping (Kieswetter's) wasn't up to scratch in ODI games.

Time to bring in a gloveman who will take the chances offered to him. Read or Foster could also both offer a desperately needed experienced leader on the field. Not to mention they both have better FC batting averages than Buttler as well...  Tumbleweed 

Out of interest would no one else love to watch a genuinely excellent wicketkeeper back behind the stumps? As a former keeper myself I'm biased but I enjoy watching a standout gloveman at work almost as much as a brilliant batting or bowling performance!

I'd also give Broad a rest. He's once again down on pace and needs a kick up the backside. Of all the bowlers this test he disappointed me most on that first day. It was a pitch tailor made for him, run in hard pitch it up at pace and let the ball do the rest. It really should have been bread and butter bowling.

1.Cook
2.Robson
3.Ballance
4.Bell
5.Root
6.Ali
7.Stokes
8.Foster (wk)
9.Jordan
10.Plunkett
11.Anderson

As for the captaincy, I'm lost! I agree with almost everyone now that Cook is not the man for the job, not least because we desperately need his runs at the top of the order. Who to replace him with though your guess is as good as mine. Maybe give Root a shot...  picard

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Post by alfie on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 11:33 am

Dust settling ? A bit , perhaps...

Nice to see Mike back on the board - with a rather more dispassionate and considered view on the situation confronting England at present. clap 

Guildford advised me to "look away" from Cook's press conference : actually I had no choice as Australian TV cut off sharpish after the match ended. Reading the words isn't the same...nevertheless I am led to wonder if Cook already had a pretty good idea that Prior was going to call time on his season (and probably on his Test career) and was allowing his old teammate to depart with a measure of dignity ? If that was the case , well played. No proof , of course.

Getting back to the issues : unlike many , I don't believe there is any crisis in English cricket. An aging team fell apart in Australia , and shed several of its established stars in the process ("crisis" might have been a fairer term around the end of December !) , and any reasonable person should surely have been expecting the recast team to take a while to get going properly again. Despite the rather dramatic collapse after lunch yesterday , there have been a few hopeful signs already this summer that a revival is possible in less than geological time , though these signs seem to have been submerged in the public appreciation by the dismay at the extended run of Test Matches without a win.
I wonder how much difference it would have made to the climate of opinion this summer if a Sri Lankan tailender had failed to get an inside edge on the penultimate ball of one match , and an English number eleven had manged to get his bat and glove out of the way at the same stage in the next ? The players would all have performed the same way ; the tactics used would have been identical - and yet the series would have produced a 1-0 win instead of a loss...
Don't wish to go over all the same ground Mike covered above ; but I do feel that by and large the players brought in this year have shown reasonable promise ( is it permitted to give the selectors some credit for identifying talent ?) and if the experienced members of the side were to be anywhere near their own best there would be a pretty decent team out there , despite the One Big Weakness : (yes of course the spinner problem ! which I leave to the other thread)
Cook's issues of course are occupying a lot of air space ... apart from the frankly silly suggestions from some that removing him from office would be a magic bullet to solve all England's problems - no one on here , I'm sure  Smile ...there are plenty of well meaning pundits offering advice as to the best way for Cook to act in the best interests of himself and the team.
I would respectfully suggest that none of them are really in a position to judge what is best for Cook : they might think they know what is going on in his head ; but they don't - not for certain anyway. Neither do I , of course ; but I'm not prescribing. If Cook wishes to stay , truly believes he can arrest his personal slump and do the job to which he was appointed , and knows from discussions with his coach that Moores wants him to continue at least for now , then I do not think it is for an outside observer to call him "selfish" or pigheaded.
The issue of whether the selectors should take the matter out of his hands is another matter. You could argue for or against - my view hasn't changed , I do not think there is another option currently available that offers a really strong chance of bringing about an early change for the better. Obviously there is a limit to how long a team can continue with a leader who simply can't justify his presence on form , but I don't think we have reached that yet. Ask me again after The Oval.
Next game I see Buttler as the keeper - possibly premature , but any other choice will bring down the Wrath of Fleet Street and just heap pressure on whoever else were chosen , so I hope he does well. Those advocating Read either have short memories or are too young to have seen his earlier Test career - he's a damn good keeper but a walking wicket at Test level.
I am torn on Stokes . He bowled pretty well at Lord's ; but his batting form has deserted him , and the second innings shot was incredibly irresponsible . Not that I want to punish him for it , but I wonder if he needs time at a lower level to regain some control over that aspect of his game ? I won't scream if he is retained , but I am leaning to giving Woakes a try in his place next week.
Broad is apparently suffering with something a little more than a niggle . He and the medical staff will have to work out whether he is better off resting now or if it is going to come good - he certainly looked short of his best in this match. Had some ill luck with missed chances , but a few too many loose and untidy overs for my taste. Would like to see him play at the Rose Bowl , but if he has to be replaced Jordan wouldn't be a bad replacement . (not sure how far Finn has come along the comeback trail , though I was heartened to see him having some time with the squad recently. Need him back sooner or later - too much talent to be lost to England)

Typing finger getting sore ; but I was pleased to see Mike having a go at the Sky commentators for their harping on about bowling full . I addressed this on Friday in comments on the first day , and even borrowed some stats to suggest they were a bit detached from reality , but no one seemed interested at the time. Sometimes they seem to decide on a theme at the start of a game , and relentlessly pursue it throughout , often in the face of evidence to the contrary.
Enough for now. But best wishes to Matt Prior in his recovery ; even if he indeed turns out to have done his time in an England shirt , I hope he makes it back to enjoy playing for his county. He has given England fine service for several years , and I wish he'd had a better send off.


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Post by msp83 on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:24 pm

jimbohammers wrote:Seem to remember a few Indian posters laughing and mocking Ishant Sharma's ability, gone a little quiet on that front.....

I think Cook needs to step down as captain. He needs to concentrate on his batting and scoring crucial runs for England. His mind is scrambled, we need fresh ideas in my opinion. Haven't been at all convinced by Robson. There is no better alternative in County cricket, that is actually English?

I would personally give Woakes a game. Seems to be highly rated within the England setup, so give him a chance. Stokes looks shot of confidence right now.

I would consider a spinner at the Ageas Bowl, where there is always something on offer. They have added Kerrigan to the squad, so they must be thinking of playing him? In my opinion I don't think he is good enough, would have liked to seen Briggs or Rashid given a chance.
Ishant had an absolutely fabulous 2nd innings of the 2nd test that set up a fine overseas win for India. But that doesn't mean he has transformed into someone else. He does remain the same old Ishant Sharma. Yes he has surprised many of us as he had creditable performances in the last 4 tests, has taken 5fors in 3 of those and thus seems to have added a bit of consistency to his game that was missing after his first year in internatonal cricket. But Ishant being Ishant, I won't be surprised if gets all wrong with his line and length and forgets to mind the crease line throughout the innings in the next test. But at least, those horrer days are now getting mixed with some good ones as well.
A fine article on Sharma.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/762963.html

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Post by msp83 on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:28 pm

Meant this one in fact.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/762919.html

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Post by guildfordbat on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 12:47 pm

Alfie / Mike - several years down the line Plunkett has returned to Test cricket as a much improved bowler. I don't see why you both appear to regard it as so impossible for Read to return years later as a better batsman. He's more than proved himself as a gutsy and constent scorer in CC cricket in recent seasons.

Read's experienced presence would also be a means of useful advice for Cook.

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:21 pm

Stokes should retain his place. He is part of a four man attack so the main focus should be on his bowling, which has been by and large fine.

Yes is batting needs to improve but while he is batting 8, I think it would be harsh to drop him based on his lack of success with the bat.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:30 pm

I think I'm with Michael Vaughan as far as the Cook situation goes.

He needs a complete break from Test cricket for a while, for his own good.

Even if he has the captaincy taken from him, he still has the pressure of opening the batting and being expected to score runs. The form he's in at the moment, I don't see him turning it around anytime soon.

Think he needs to go back to county cricket for a while, get his head straightenend out and rediscover his form.

Chef isn't finished by any means, but I think he definitely needs to get out of the spotlight for a while.

Any ideas who could replace him as opener?

That said, with 2 or 3 exceptions, the team have been largely rubbish as well and haven't helped their captain, with some very poor bowling for long spells and headless chicken batting. Its particularly infuriating as they have shown they are better than that...they just seem unable to maintain any kind of consistency, which has let India escape from some perilous positions and enabled them to humiliate England.

Some shuffling of the side is needed...a new opener, keeper and I'd agree with whoever said Broad and Anderson should be rested for a bit. This stupid schedule can't be helping, but that still doesn't excuse some of the performances we've seen.
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Post by msp83 on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:39 pm

George Dobell of cricinfo thinks that the English system is failing the side as it is a closed system that discourages free thinking cricketers. KP, Compton.......
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/763005.html

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Post by alfie on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:48 pm

guildford - I suppose nothing is impossible ; but Read has had three separate spells in Test Cricket . An initial short one against NZ in which he only made double figures once in three games , a longer run four years later wherein he had two high thirties in Bangladesh and nothing else , and finally a recall in 2006 in which he did quite well against Pakistan , albeit with a little good fortune as I recall , only to struggle in Australia ( to be fair he was hardly alone in that  Smile )
An average of 18 , a top of 55 , in fifteen matches over eight years...

He's 35.  Do you really think he is going to become a thirty something bat at this stage ? Doubtful , I'd say.

I take your Plunkett point ; but he was very young ( so was Read ,of course) and  quickly discarded , despite showing a bit of promise.  He stagnated for years but has indeed bounced back a better bowler now ...even so I am not sure he will nail down a place this time either. He has had some good spells , mixed with some rather ordinary : I think the jury is still out.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 1:59 pm

I don't think KP actually thought about anything. As much of a liability as anything. I think his better performances were more instinctive than "genius".
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:03 pm

msp83 wrote:George Dobell of cricinfo thinks that the English system is failing the side as it is a closed system that discourages free thinking cricketers. KP, Compton.......
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-india-2014/content/story/763005.html

free thinking is a PC word generally representing the immigrant-background cricketers  Shocked


there is list of those tormented and dumped by ECB......Trott, KP, Rankin, Monty, Compton...Ali lives under the perpetual fear of being dumped inspite of his runs and wickets....and now Ballance has already received a warning for expressing himself with joy in an entirely personal moment


Last edited by KP_fan on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:19 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:05 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:I think I'm with Michael Vaughan as far as the Cook situation goes.


If Cook Falls KP is back......it is a simple equation laughing 

Downton has gone on a limb to stand between Cook...... and the rest wanting to sack him.
Because if Cook falls.......KP returns and with that goes Downton's nose  laughing
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Post by alfie on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:19 pm

KP_fan wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I think I'm with Michael Vaughan as far as the Cook situation goes.


If Cook Falls KP is back......it is a simple equation laughing 

Downton has gone on a limb to stand between Cook...... and the rest wanting to sack him.
Because if Cook falls.......KP returns and with that goes Downton's nose  laughing

Dream on...

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Post by GSC on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:23 pm

I wouldn't bother to be honest Alfie.
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Post by Duty281 on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:27 pm

invisiblecoolers wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I think England will still win this series. The corner will gradually be turned, and I think it'll be a 2-1 win to the home side.

At odds of at least 4/1 to win the series, I think it's fair game for a lump on.

I don't think we should make any changes, unless Broad is injured, of course, in which case Jordan should come back in.

Victory will manifest itself out of preserverance, by perfect discipline and just that ounce of luck which has certainly been lacking.

 laughing 

I know you are a die hard supporter of all English sports, the fact is the current English team is a below average team and so is Indian team.

I would put it this way an average team beat an below average team, expecting the below average team to win 4-1 and citing unluck as the reason for loss is taking way too far.

When was the last time you saw an Indian team [let alone an ordinary Indian team] come with so much so much confident of winning an overseas test series?  Laugh 

If 2-1 for England is your prediction get ready for series shocks ahead, certainly won't happen [I even doubt England would win a match and the winless streak to continue to record heights].  Hug 

Ah yes, I remember in 2011 I predicted England to win by the two test or more margin which would mean becoming number one. I was laughed at, but proved right.

And in the autumn of 2012 against India my pre-series prediction was 2-1 England. I was laughed at, even more so after the first Test, but I was proved right.

I think I'll be proved right once more. England will turn a corner very soon, India don't have such a high ceiling of potential.

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Post by KP_fan on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:28 pm

alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I think I'm with Michael Vaughan as far as the Cook situation goes.


If Cook Falls KP is back......it is a simple equation laughing 

Downton has gone on a limb to stand between Cook...... and the rest wanting to sack him.
Because if Cook falls.......KP returns and with that goes Downton's nose  laughing

Dream on...

Ha Ha....my dreams.....someone else's nightmares  laughing 

dismiss this as a dream at your own risk.

the longer Downton holds on his hands a "melted Cook"...and if that "corner they are waiting to be turned"...is not turned......then Downton himself is at a risk of going down with Cook.

KP has enough gas left to deliver a world cup and an Ashes Very Happy 

Poor Moores...have a thought might inherit KP again
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Post by KP_fan on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:31 pm

Duty281 wrote:
invisiblecoolers wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I think England will still win this series. The corner will gradually be turned, and I think it'll be a 2-1 win to the home side.

At odds of at least 4/1 to win the series, I think it's fair game for a lump on.

I don't think we should make any changes, unless Broad is injured, of course, in which case Jordan should come back in.

Victory will manifest itself out of preserverance, by perfect discipline and just that ounce of luck which has certainly been lacking.

 laughing 

I know you are a die hard supporter of all English sports, the fact is the current English team is a below average team and so is Indian team.

I would put it this way an average team beat an below average team, expecting the below average team to win 4-1 and citing unluck as the reason for loss is taking way too far.

When was the last time you saw an Indian team [let alone an ordinary Indian team] come with so much so much confident of winning an overseas test series?  Laugh 

If 2-1 for England is your prediction get ready for series shocks ahead, certainly won't happen [I even doubt England would win a match and the winless streak to continue to record heights].  Hug 

Ah yes, I remember in 2011 I predicted England to win by the two test or more margin which would mean becoming number one. I was laughed at, but proved right.

And in the autumn of 2012 against India my pre-series prediction was 2-1 England. I was laughed at, even more so after the first Test, but I was proved right.

I think I'll be proved right once more. England will turn a corner very soon, India don't have such a high ceiling of potential.

he is right.....man to man Eng team is better.....they are just in a self-implosion / melt-down state because of leadership issues.
take out Cook as a Captain ( but retain as a player)......a 2-1 verdict in favor of Eng is still quite likely
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Post by dyrewolfe on Tue 22 Jul 2014, 2:40 pm

 Laugh 
KP_fan wrote:
alfie wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I think I'm with Michael Vaughan as far as the Cook situation goes.


If Cook Falls KP is back......it is a simple equation laughing 

Downton has gone on a limb to stand between Cook...... and the rest wanting to sack him.
Because if Cook falls.......KP returns and with that goes Downton's nose  laughing

Dream on...

Ha Ha....my dreams.....someone else's nightmares  laughing 

dismiss this as a dream at your own risk.

the longer Downton holds on his hands a "melted Cook"...and if that "corner they are waiting to be turned"...is not turned......then Downton himself is at a risk of going down with Cook.

KP has enough gas left to deliver a world cup and an Ashes Very Happy 

Poor Moores...have a thought might inherit KP again


The only "gas" KP seems to deliver is the type that comes out of peoples' rear ends.

Personally, I wouldn't trust him to deliver a pizza. IMO KP is like the latest version of Windows...brilliant when it works, but frustrates the hell out of you more often than not. Laugh
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