England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

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England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by GSC on Fri 01 Aug 2014, 4:21 pm

First topic message reminder :

With the Anderson/Jadeja spat in the rear view mirror, we can all move on.

England name an unchanged squad, I'd be surprised if Plunkett didn't play, whether its at the expense of Jordan or Broad is the biggest question. Imagine they'll have planned on resting Broad at some stage.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Gerry SA on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:05 pm

The myth of Ian Bell being a 'world class player of spin' continues...

He's only shown the ability to play non turning slow bowling. 

His record is the subcontinent(minus Bangladesh) is pitiful.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:13 pm

Very impressive this by bell. Playing one day stuff out there without a care in the world... Keep it up bell

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:16 pm

there's a lot to like about Ballance, there really is. Has a very simple, uncomplicated game, with a nice range of shots, and great awareness of where the field is (you rarely ever see him pick out a fielder with an attacking shot).

India's seamers looking a little weary, Pankaj's levels of fitness just aren't good enough (something Mike picked up on here in the previous test).

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by msp83 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:18 pm

Bell averages something like 78 at OT doesn't he? seems he's on his way to better that. And Ballance looking as solid as ever.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:19 pm

Yep . Touch wood.

there hasn't been a rookie test batter start like this for England in my lifetime

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:20 pm

Ballance has slotted in seamlessly for England. His Test average is, currently, around the 66 mark.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by GSC on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:20 pm

Looks like England have rode out the opening storm.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by PaulHv2 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:21 pm

These two will hopefully see out the night and bat most of tomorrow, *waits for the collapse*  Whistle 
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Gerry SA on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:22 pm

Gary Ballance has feasted on weak attacks of SL and India and now he's England's saviour...

One Test vs Australia in Sydney and he was a total bunny...

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:29 pm

He is the new bradman Gerry. Face it. Wink

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Mad for Chelsea on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:31 pm

interesting that on day 1 of the previous Test England were happy to just play for stumps, no sign of such caution today. Rightly so IMO, India's bowlers look tired, and not all that up for the fight.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:32 pm

100 up, and at a jolly decent rate, too. That makes it all the more worthwhile, given the constant threat of rain that looms over this Test.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Gerry SA on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:33 pm

mystiroakey wrote:He is the new bradman Gerry. Face it. Wink
You wish...

He'll be exposed in the Caribbean

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:38 pm

Gary ballance is Zimbabwean, my grandfather's Zimbabwean, we're practically family.

#ZimboPower
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by liverbnz on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:49 pm

My cousin  is half. South African, does that make us family raf?
Smile

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:54 pm

I had a South African friend at school...  Rolling Eyes

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:55 pm

It works better with Zimbabwe because there are like 50 people left now.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:56 pm

No way . Leg side

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:57 pm

Maybe not

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 6:58 pm

Ah Balance will be disappointed but, given the match situation, it is hardly a hammer blow to England's aspirations.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Gerry SA on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:03 pm

This lad Aaron looks a good bowler, reminds me of Surrey's Stuart Meaker. Has got some serious wheels. 

As for Gary Bradman...yeah he's average at best.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by trebellbobaggins on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:03 pm

Given England batting of recent years i'd call this pretty even. Eng could easily be out for not much more than India.

If they can get 150 more they'd be in a decent ish position.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:05 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:interesting that on day 1 of the previous Test England were happy to just play for stumps, no sign of such caution today. Rightly so IMO, India's bowlers look tired, and not all that up for the fight.
Actually thought Ballance went a little into his shell at the end there and cost himself a wicket just playing defensively

Like that Jordan has gone in as nightwatchman (although hate the night watchman idea in a situation like this). If he bats for an hour tomorrow he'll score quickly
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:15 pm

Match situation wise I've got no problem with Dhoni batting first, if India would've played well they would've got near 250/300 a good first innings score ala at Lords. As it was England were superb and India not great.

They're on there last legs really, if England can get 300 its a heck of a ask for India to come back
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:15 pm

Jordan is a seriously good fielder. If he comes good as an all rounder , he could be ideal for us.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:17 pm

England bat deep and have plenty of attacking minded players to take the game away from India. After the mini-wobble, 36/2, was averted, England took full command once again.

Anything less than a 150 lead will be disappointing for England, and the only realistic chance that India have is that the conditions save them.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:19 pm

Yep England's target will be 350 but not slowly due to weather.

But 300 has to be achieved. If we are less than 100 ahead and India get 300 , we have issues. This game isn't over although it is England's to lose

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:22 pm

I think England will finish up in the region of 380-420, which will be more than enough to ensure a triumph.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:35 pm

Actually don't think a spot of rain will affect England too much, might actually help them as it'll keep a bit of nibble in the surface, and prevent it from becoming a dry spinner (like Old Trafford can do)
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 7:52 pm

Interesting days cricket. At 8/4, batting first looks stupid, but I thought it was a valid decision. Cricket fans sometimes get into this "it's only a good idea if it worked" mentality, but I don't think India were beaten more than is standard on a bouncy pitch with swing about. The difference is that this morning, Indians nicked off, whereas generally, most are just play and misses, and one of them fights through to a massive knock. England obviously in control, but there's probably enough time for India to still be able to fight back, too much to fight for a draw... If I'm captain, I'd go for the counter punch, and try blast England out tomorrow morning.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:01 pm

This test is England's to win as it stands. They will perhaps build a lead of about 100 after the first innings and that will prove too much for India with Anderson and Broad to face again. Even if England have 100 to chase down in the final innings the batsmen now appear far more confident and there won't be any jitters.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:29 pm

Think on form, we're talking about a series between the fifth and sixth best (maybe six and seventh) teams in the world, but it's produced enthralling cricket. Five test series are quite justified if the two teams are close enough in quality.

England probably has this one in the bag.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:33 pm

Are you serious , who are these 5 better teams?

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:35 pm

I do believe in the world rankings India are third and England fourth.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:40 pm

I would make England 3rd best in the world, presently. Even then, it isn't terribly clear-cut.

One thing is clear-cut however: England have hit their nadir, losing 5-0 to Australia which was coupled with off the field strife, and losing to Sri Lanka at home, but are gradually starting to rise again.

The only way now for Cook is upwards, and into those broad, sunlit uplands.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:42 pm

SA/Aus out ahead, Sri Lanka better than both teams and I'd back the Kiwis to beat both atm. So I'd have England/India as fifth/sixth

As for India a few thoughts:

Aaron looks handy, bit scattergun but pace and bowls properly good balls in there.

Kohli has looked clueless all tour so far, no idea what to do against the moving ball

And how on earth Jadeja has three first class triple hundreds to his name, is one of life's great mysteries.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:46 pm

Nz better , you are actually joking right?

Ok England may have only just got back to a bit of form. But tell me how many kiwis would get in the England team?

If we want to be harsh but fair. All the teams are equally as bad bar South Africa and aus(pak,sl,ind,eng,nz)

However a few decent result means nothing to the fragile Aussies. I wouldn't back against England beating them 5-0 next time.. They are very fragile. If the big boys in England come good like cook,bell,jimmy and broad, add ballance Ali and root and tbh , England are better.



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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:51 pm

People have short memories.

England hammered Australia in England.
Australia hammered England in Australia.

If the chronology of the two were swapped, we would all look at it differently.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:54 pm

Well for a start unless I'm mistaken Sri Lanka just came over here and beat us. 

New Zealand have a very good side. Guys like Kane Williamson, Brendan McCullum, Trent Boult, Tim Southee, Jimmy Neesham, Corey Anderson and Ross Taylor I'd say are all as good if not better in some cases than there English counterparts.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:56 pm

Duty281 wrote:People have short memories.

England hammered Australia in England.
Australia hammered England in Australia.

If the chronology of the two were swapped, we would all look at it differently.
Not entirely sure what your point is here duty, yes if they were swapped we would, but this isn't some strange parallel universe.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:56 pm

As I said on form all are of very similar quality. Impossible to split as the rankings also suggest.

But out of them all England have the most class test players that you would want on your team

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:57 pm

Think people need to just hold back on England being back just yet. Doing better and encouraging signs, but there's a long old way to go in this match and series.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 8:59 pm

Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:People have short memories.

England hammered Australia in England.
Australia hammered England in Australia.

If the chronology of the two were swapped, we would all look at it differently.
Not entirely sure what your point is here duty, yes if they were swapped we would, but this isn't some strange parallel universe.

My point is that there is not too much difference in quality between Australia and England, presently.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:00 pm

If I had to put together a combined England/New Zealand team this would be it

Cook
Williamson
Taylor
Bell
Ballance
Needham
McCullum 
Southee
Broad
Boult
Anderson

So I'd have one more NZ player. If we weren't accepting McCullum as WK I'd remove Ballance, have McCullum as batsman/skipper and Watling as wicket keeper
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by PaulHv2 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:00 pm

New Zealand are doing well, won their last three test series. However two of them have been against a very average West Indies side.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:People have short memories.

England hammered Australia in England.
Australia hammered England in Australia.

If the chronology of the two were swapped, we would all look at it differently.
Not entirely sure what your point is here duty, yes if they were swapped we would, but this isn't some strange parallel universe.

My point is that there is not too much difference in quality between Australia and England, presently.

Your point is pretty wrong.

A lot has changed since that series last summer. We've got worse, by quite a bit and are only now showing signs of recovering, whereas the Aussies have got significantly better.
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:03 pm

Olly wrote:Think people need to just hold back on England being back just yet. Doing better and encouraging signs, but there's a long old way to go in this match and series.

England's quality has never been in doubt, for me. They fell apart off the field in the winter leading to a colossal cricketing disaster. The negative mental effects that stemmed from that led to England scrambling and stuttering for the first part of the summer, but now they are starting to find their feet once more, and playing to their level.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by mystiroakey on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:03 pm

Olly wrote:If I had to put together a combined England/New Zealand team this would be it

Cook
Williamson
Taylor
Bell
Ballance
Needham
McCullum 
Southee
Broad
Boult
Anderson

So I'd have one more NZ player. If we weren't accepting McCullum as WK I'd remove Ballance, have McCullum as batsman/skipper and Watling as wicket keeper

Taylor over ballance - and then ballance over root.. No.

Ballance at 3 root at 5 and bell at 4.

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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by KP_fan on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:04 pm

--well.....a bad day....and from here if it slips down further, a big inning defeat is in the offing.

---However by picking 3 wickets, Ind has ensured Eng do not run away there is a small window open.....they need a ripping inspired spell of bowling tomorrow to bowl Eng out.... within another hundred runs.


--I unfortunately got so caught in work that I could not see first hand Indian bowling....so I dunno how penetrative they looked ?
If Pankaj cannot pick wickets here on this pitch....his career will end...and duly so.

--a lead of 70 odd can be managed  through a sound second inning with bat by India....they have to win the first session tomm...their chances in the test rest on first session.

--applause for Dhoni.....mind over matter.....fighting knock...

---one more time I come back to Woakes......if he cannot pick wickets on a pitch like this?....where else will he take wickets
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Re: England v India 4th Test, Old Trafford

Post by Duty281 on Thu 07 Aug 2014, 9:07 pm

Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:People have short memories.

England hammered Australia in England.
Australia hammered England in Australia.

If the chronology of the two were swapped, we would all look at it differently.
Not entirely sure what your point is here duty, yes if they were swapped we would, but this isn't some strange parallel universe.

My point is that there is not too much difference in quality between Australia and England, presently.

Your point is pretty wrong.

A lot has changed since that series last summer. We've got worse, by quite a bit and are only now showing signs of recovering, whereas the Aussies have got significantly better.

The transition for England has been pretty difficult, granted, but England are completely through the worst now. The patient is in good health, and making a gallant recovery.

I wouldn't expect miracles whenever it is that England visit South Africa, but I do expect the Three Lions to win this series, beat the West Indies away and the Kiwis at home, before reclaiming the Ashes next summer.

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