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How has this happened?

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Post by bogbrush Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:51 am

First topic message reminder :

In 2009, 22 year old Andy Murray beat 28 year old Roger Federer in Indian Wells to open up a 6-2 head to head lead.
In 2014 33 year old Federer beat 27 year old Murray to square the head to head up at 11 each.

How does that happen? Since when does it work that way round? Isn't the older guy supposed to beat the novice up, but then be overhauled as he declines and the younger guy improves? The Slam records of the two clearly shows that Federers powers have waned in that time, and Murray has strengthened, making numerous finals and winning two. The same goes for their ranking. In 2009 Federer recaptured the #1 ranking, but is only recently recovering from dropping to #7. Murray admittedly is down right now, but that's mainly due to missed events last year.

So what's happened in the game of these two to turn the match up the other way round?

Edit: corrected date of Fed getting back to #1


Last edited by bogbrush on Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by laverfan Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:29 pm

@HE ... Do you remember a five-setter with a certain Tipsarevic? It may be worth recalling the year? You can also mention ones against Falla, Simon. I also recall a trainer on court despite the W final. Wink

The match v Isner was a good barometer of what to expect v Federer. If Murray is playing to his ranking, so is Federer.

Just missing Nadal on his injury break.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Yes I see what you are saying and do think the pair are trying to work in serve side of things. The worrying thing is even if serve is getting him into winning positions he himself is blowing it. He needs to start getting back into the habit of closing sets/matches out.
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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:02 pm

laverfan wrote:If Murray is playing to his ranking, so is Federer.

Just missing Nadal on his injury break.

Yes exactly!  Very Happy

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Post by Henman Bill Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:16 pm

I could have sworn when I saw this article it was going to be "How did this happen? 2 fogeys Federer/Ferrer in the final." Looked like a golden opportunity for you BB to continue your attempts to dismantle the weak era theory and have a go at the lack of young talent coming through!

Stil, yes, Murray/Federer head to head, also curious.

Most of it's covered already but to summarise.

Murray went all out nuts to win minor tournaments early in his career, before changing focus later. (It's quite the opposite trend in their head to head if we look at slams and include the Olympics, perhaps.)

A lot of it was due to Fed's poor 2008.

Some random chance.

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Post by lydian Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:20 pm

This comment from Murray after Wimbledon is telling...

“If I'm going to play better tennis than I am just now, the only way to do that is by working even harder than I have before. Getting in the gym, getting stronger, becoming physically better. Now we'll see whether I can come back stronger and come back better. No one knows, but I'm going to try."

So more focus on the physical side...
Clearly he doesn't seem to understand the guys beating him aren't stronger or fitter than him!  picard
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Post by bogbrush Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:04 pm

Bill, the Golden Era crap is dead and gone, no need to disturb that grave.

Lydian, good find. It's ridiculous, like a cracked record. Someone, somewhere, has convinced him that he's David Ferrer.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:20 pm

The area I'd sooner see him work on is the mental side. Mentally he has been way off the mark this year. Okay so earlier in the year the recovery from back surgery may have made him pensive but he now knows the back is physically fine yet there are still mental hang ups. In his last four tournaments his exits have come in differing but similarly disappointing style.

French Open Semi - He did well to get there but he was ripped apart and handing what I believe is his heaviest slam defeat to date.

Wimbledon - Against Dimitrov he went out with a whimper and never even looked like mounting a comeback.

Toronto - He had his match against Tsonga in the bag with Jo mentally shot trailing 3-0 in the final set and then Andy handed him a full survival kit and flung a winning position away.

Cincinatti - Against Roger he was in firm control of the second set leading 4-1 and in a carbon copy of the Tsonga match he flung Roger a lifeline and ended up losing the match in straight sets.

All meek surrenders in one way or another - very un-Andy-like.
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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:24 pm

He did also say in the very same interview:

“The only way that I can improve is by getting myself on the practice court and working harder than I have done in the last 12 months. Hopefully that will help. But, you know, now we'll see whether I can come back stronger and come back better. And, yeah, no one knows, but I'm going to try.”

So it's not like he excluded trying to improve his tennis. He probably wanted to improve his strength because he's been unable to train at full pelt post surgery, until the last 2 masters.

But anyway, it's strategy and desire that's lacking for me. He says it's consistency, but I don't think so. How many times has Murray played well against a good player this season?

He did well in patches v Tsonga the other week, and the same against Isner. That's pretty much it! And the season is halfway throught it's 8th month! I think he's on the wrong road, I really do.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:27 pm

Yes Danny it is the mental side and confidence/belief that is lacking for me.
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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:35 pm

What do you think about how he's trying to play though Craig? Don't you think he's gone back a bit to a more reactive game, rather than the pro active style Lendl tried to enforce?

Against Roger the other night, the whole match was on Roger's racquet. Compare that to his Fed matches at 2012 Wimbledon and Olympics, and 2013 AO... Different intensity, but also he was imposing his game. He's not anymore.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:46 pm

I have more of a problem with the mental side of his game. For me when he is mentally awry he slips into a less aggressive game. If you wish he reverts back to type. By nature he is a counter-puncher so that is his default setting and when mentally down he falls back into this default setting. Just now he is lacking mental strength perhaps due to lack of confidence so that is what he needs to rectify. If the confidence returns I would hope and expect to see more aggression return to his game.
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Post by invisiblecoolers Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:52 pm

lydian wrote:This comment from Murray after Wimbledon is telling...

“If I'm going to play better tennis than I am just now, the only way to do that is by working even harder than I have before. Getting in the gym, getting stronger, becoming physically better. Now we'll see whether I can come back stronger and come back better. No one knows, but I'm going to try."

So more focus on the physical side...
Clearly he doesn't seem to understand the guys beating him aren't stronger or fitter than him!  picard

I agree with most except the last statement, coz Rafa was 5x more fitter than Murray at the least in their early part of their career.

Murray couldn't beat Rafa with just his skills like he did with Fed in his early career, and thought only way to compete with Rafa is to posses the similar energy levels, I don't blame him coz Nole believed in the similar philosophy and made himself a physical monster and we already saw the results.

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Post by bogbrush Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:55 pm

You can't, I believe, address mentality directly. It's a reflection of confidence, which in turn comes down to having a good game plan.

I think he's gone so far down the physical route that it's like a cul de sac for him, and recent problems have hot him hard for that reason. Whatever, just as Federer has changed his game over the last three years to come to terms with changes in his body, Murray must do the same.
Volley more, develop a good safe (not so fast) first serve to protect the second, vary pace constantly, change the length. Be unpredictable. Right now you can script all his plays, it's too easy and you couldn't say that in 2005-8. I think he's sort of panicking because more and more of Plan A isn't working as well, and with that comes losses of concentration.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:01 pm

I don't think the physical side is an issue though. Is he physically too strong? I don't think you can be too strong in that it affects aspects of your game. His problem (for me) is in the confidence and mental side of the game.

I do say and have said plenty of times on here that he needs to be more aggressive but it isn't as easy as that as it goes against his natural game as a counter-puncher. I suppose it is like expecting Muhammad Ali to develop a Mike Tyson knockout punch or expect Tyson to develop Ali's ring craft - it can't/won't happen in my honest opinion.
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Post by bogbrush Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:41 pm

I didn't say too strong, or aggression. It's variety.

Let me ask then - how to you improve concentration? By concentrating harder? It won't work. The problem is his game has become too predictable and limited.
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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:41 pm

I agree with you Craig that his physical state isn't a problem. I think he does suffer from not being as mentally tough as the other 3 members of the now defunct 'big four'. Lendl filled a gap there big time.

But he also got him playing on the front foot. Gone were the mid court nothing forehands. Gone was the default position of 2 metres behind the baseline.

You might be right, a few good wins might bring some of those good habits back. I personally worry, I think he was dragged kicking and screaming into a more aggressive game, and he might want to revert to his reactive roots.

Also, in ten years I've never questioned his desire but I find myself doing that now. As Micky says in Rocky 3 'you ain't been hungry since you won that belt' and I wonder if his belly is full after Wimbledon.

Time will tell, and I hope my fears are wrong. But unless he plays as pro actively as Lendl made him play, I'm 100% sure he won't win another slam.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:53 pm

bogbrush wrote:I didn't say too strong, or aggression. It's variety.

Let me ask then - how to you improve concentration? By concentrating harder? It won't work. The problem is his game has become too predictable and limited.

Again though being physically strong has nothing to do with preventing him bringing variety into his game. Like I said when his confidence is down and mentally unsure as he is now his default game clicks in and he plays his counter-punching game which invariably has less variety than one with a bit of everything such as aggression and ability to still counter-punch - that is in my opinion I must add.
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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:56 pm

Good find on the quote Lydian, which I think reinforces what I said a said ago. Getting stronger is seductive.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:05 pm

kingraf wrote:Good find on the quote Lydian, which I think reinforces what I said a said ago. Getting stronger is seductive.

Physical strength does not prevent first serve firing, does not stop him playing aggressive tennis, does not stop him playing tennis with variety and does not alter mindset in match conditions. It is handy to have should a match drag on so I see absolutely nothing wrong with him having physical strength but would hope he is not putting that element of his game over working on second serve or being more aggressive.
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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:08 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:I agree with you Craig that his physical state isn't a problem. I think he does suffer from not being as mentally tough as the other 3 members of the now defunct 'big four'. Lendl filled a gap there big time.

But he also got him playing on the front foot. Gone were the mid court nothing forehands. Gone was the default position of 2 metres behind the baseline.

You might be right, a few good wins might bring some of those good habits back. I personally worry, I think he was dragged kicking and screaming into a more aggressive game, and he might want to revert to his reactive roots.

Also, in ten years I've never questioned his desire but I find myself doing that now. As Micky says in Rocky 3 'you ain't been hungry since you won that belt' and I wonder if his belly is full after Wimbledon.

Time will tell, and I hope my fears are wrong. But unless he plays as pro actively as Lendl made him play, I'm 100% sure he won't win another slam.

To be fair though, the only reason I can see for hiring Mauresmo would be to develop an aggressive game - that was how she played. Admittedly there has been no sign so far but Murray has to recognise that's the way forwards surely?

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:15 pm

Threads questioning a player's monument aren't complete without a Rocky reference. Will he ever find The Eye of the Tiger?
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:16 pm

For Andy to play aggressive though takes a correct mindset and just now Murray isn't in that frame of mind and at ease with his game. When searching for form and confidence Andy slips into his default counter-punching mode.
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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:25 pm

BS - you'd hope so, but as you say there's absolutely no evidence of it.

What worries me is I saw an interview before these 2 masters in which he said "I want to play with more variety, something which I think I've gone away from the last year or so"

Big question for me is what does 'year or so' mean? In the last 12 months there's only this calendar year during which he's played at all. So does he mean stretching back to Wimbledon 13, or further?

Worries me if he does, cos that's the time of 4 slam finals in a row, winning two. That's into the time of the Lendl blueprint for getting slams out of his toolset. That comment might mean "I've got the silverware by playing the everyone wanted, now I play my way"

Of course, there's also the possibility of me reading far too much into it!

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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:28 pm

kingraf wrote:Threads questioning a player's monument aren't complete without a Rocky reference. Will he ever find The Eye of the Tiger?

I try to get at least 1 Rocky reference per week. My life feels incomplete if I fail.

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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:33 pm

IMO mentally Murray is good. But unlike other top players he has two big weaknesses in his game. His forehand and his serve. Often he gets away with these weaknesses because they are unusual in that these are usually a pro player biggest shots. Most players are so used to targeting the backhand that they often mistakenly do the same to Murray and it's a mistake. When Murray's first serve goes in it is good but it's a risky shot and more often than not Murray's first serve percentage is low or very low. Also Murray's serve is an all or nothing thing because if he misses his first serve his second serve is just an invitation to tee off.

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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:36 pm

If Murray is mentally so good HE why does he hit 2nd serves at 75mph?

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:41 pm

Technical issues? I mean his second serve has been WTA tier 2 his entire career, it can't just be a mental block?
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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:42 pm

He is mentally good compared to most. He's won too many big titles not to be. But he is nowhere near as mentally strong as his main 3 adversaries.

Players mistakenly target the Murray backhand as that's most players weaker shot? No, not buying that.

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Post by laverfan Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:00 pm

Murray' s back issues are directly related his over-emphasis on physical side.

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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:02 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:

Players mistakenly target the Murray backhand as that's most players weaker shot? No, not buying that.

Don't take my word for it watch carefully next time you see Murray play. If a player has done his homework and can stick to what must feel like the strange tactic of targeting Murray's forehand it pays dividends. But it's surprising how many players just do what they usually do and try to keep the ball away from what they imagine is Murray's killer shot  Very Happy

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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:06 pm

hawkeye wrote:
Danny_1982 wrote:

Players mistakenly target the Murray backhand as that's most players weaker shot? No, not buying that.

Don't take my word for it

I won't.

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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:06 pm

laverfan wrote:Murray' s back issues are directly related his over-emphasis on physical side.

My guess is that Murray enjoys all the physical gym work more than on court hitting practice. It's nice doing what you enjoy.

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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:08 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:
hawkeye wrote:
Danny_1982 wrote:

Players mistakenly target the Murray backhand as that's most players weaker shot? No, not buying that.

Don't take my word for it

I won't.

I didn't ask you too  Wink Just look for yourself.

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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:09 pm

Murray's forehand has been better than his backhand for 2-3 years. I can only presume the rotation on the backhand is hampered by the back issues.

There is no technical reason for him to hit a 1st serve at 140mph and a 2nd serve at 75mph. It can only be mental.

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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:10 pm

laverfan wrote:Murray' s back issues are directly related his over-emphasis on physical side.

Do you have any basis for that absolute statement?

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:12 pm

Okay, so what has mentally inhibited him from getting a better second serve in a decade of professional tennis?
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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:23 pm

Fear of taking risk? Reckons his defensive skills are so good that he doesn't want to even take a chance of a DF? Who knows but I bet if you asked him to hit 20 kick serves at 100mph in practice he would do it with ease.

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Post by Danny_1982 Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:34 pm

HE - I do watch carefully. If I was of top 10 ability and playing Murray I wouldn't target the FH. Not anymore. 4 years ago yes, I'd play lots of short slices to the FH, like Rafa used to at Wimbledon. Murray used to cough up loads of errors from those balls. But not now. I would attack the second serve of course. That apart I would do what Federer does. Get to the net off quality deep approaches. Make Murray doubt his patient approach.

And I would serve out wide to the backhand, as even though that's into his strength that's ur best chance of 1-2 points. For some reason Murray doesn't cover the FH that well after returning on the BH side.

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:59 pm

I'd really take you up on that bet. If he's afraid of taking a risk, that to me says he feels his second serve gets wonky the bigger he goes, which may be a mental block, but it's brought on by a very real technical issue. I can't believe that when he was going at 30% wins on second serve vs Dimi he persisted because of any of the above reasons. If he had a working bigger second serve, its ridiculous to think he kept in his locker because he didn't want to change a losing plan.
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Post by hawkeye Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:09 pm

Danny. Well I have to admit I was wrong because you noticed that Nadal targeted Murray's forehand in that Wimbledon match. Not only did he target the forehand but he did it with short slices. Hitting weak shots to a pro players forehand? How brave was that? You certainly have to trust your tactics.

It reminded me of a quote from Nadal after he played Murray in Rome. I'm sure you will know that Murray took the first set 6-1  Wink This is what Nadal had to say after the match about how he turned the match around

“With the 6-1 in the first set I really didn’t feel I was playing bad. Instead I was probably playing tactically not good, but my psychology was better and I felt more positive in my movement.

“I went more to the net in the second set and played with more passion. During the night the ball got slower and the bounces got slower.
“I played more against his forehand waiting for the right shot.

http://www.internazionalibnlditalia.com/en/news/highlights/rafa-nadal-keeps-hold-of-his-clay-crown-as-he-beats-andy-murray-in-epic-battle/

So it looks like Nadal forgot to target the forehand too. But then he hadn't played Murray for a few years.

So next time you play Murray will you take Nadal's advice? I would also add that Murray nearly always hits his forehand cross court so you could save yourself a lot of energy by not covering the dtl shot. Good luck  Wink

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Post by Born Slippy Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:11 pm

Ok, turning that around, if it was just a technical issue why hasn't he fixed it in all the time on tour. A kick serve is fairly rudimentary and its been obvious for years he hits it slower than every other top 10er. If there is some kink in his action (which I can't spot anyway) then it could have been easily ironed out years ago.

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Post by kingraf Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:21 pm

It could have, it should have, but it hasn't. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's more biomechanics than technique... Or a technique which doesn't sync with his biomechanics. It's tough to make your second serve motion too different from your first, maybe while his serve motion is efficient at getting pace when hitting flat, he can't quite generate enough when he has to add some kick to it? It is a little out there as a theory, but not beyond the realm of possibility. Following his US victory Andy mentioned Ivan for helping him out with his second serve, so he's hardly taken the "Que Sera" attitude to this matter.
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Post by Henman Bill Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:33 pm

I just wonder with Murray if there could be a motivation question. When you've spent years trying to achieve something and then achieved it, the question is where next. At this stage just a little knock to motivation may make a difference.

He's a millionaire and his main story arc is sort of complete. Could you blame him if he spends 2hours in the gym per day instead of 3, or 2 hours practicing on the court a day instead of 3? Also, actually focus on matches lower than slam level. When you've won Wimbledon, just going to play a MS for the 100th time, it is not the same as before. He went through a rollercoaster emotionally in 2012 and 2012, and earlier years. Now, he might no longer want to practice on Christmas Day. He might want to spend more time with family.

Federer and Nadal are still in a battle for GOAT between themselves and others (and Djokovic is currently battling for no 1, the top of the game head to head with Nadal, and for the career slam by winning the FO), but for Murray there is nothing of that level of important goals to motivate him.

Maybe no 1 is the target he needs to focus on to get him playing week in week out at the same level. Would I be right in saying that Murray has never been no 1, not even for a week? Maybe his motivation should be try and get to no 1. Not likely to do it obviously for at least 12 months.

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Post by Jeremy_Kyle Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:45 pm

Born Slippy wrote:Murray's forehand has been better than his backhand for 2-3 years. I can only presume the rotation on the backhand is hampered by the back issues.

There is no technical reason for him to hit a 1st serve at 140mph and a 2nd serve at 75mph. It can only be mental.

Yes there is. You can have a big first flat serve, like Murray but with the second serve most players don't hit flat which is less safe and easy to control as for example top spin or slice. I think Murray lack of a good top spin serve. The back might also be a problem for doing this shot well oth.
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Post by lydian Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:51 pm

Mental AND technical for me. He's always had a weak 2nd serve, and it places strain on his back too due to hip placement. However, he's been aided by slower courts and a lack of guys able to go after his 2nd serve. Federer is the exception as he uses the chip & charge tactic against Murray a lot. This indicates just how weak Murray's 2nd serve is because Federer doesn't use this tactic against anyone else.

Part of the technical issue is also due to Murray's first serve, which is almost a hindrance, he has a lot of technical glitches there, its simply not a smooth motion. He also has variety issues there. For example, observe his serving patterns in the ad court - Murray goes outwide every time he has a break point against him or on an important point. He can hit it as fast as 137 mph outwide to the BH, however somewhat amazingly, Murray finds it almost impossible to serve down the middle T on the ad court much faster than say around 110mph. This is probably a pronation/timing issue. He's not particularly good at variety in serving and this also makes Murray's serve very predictable. When he misses his 1st serve, he has no change up 2nd serve to the FH and so almost has no option but to serve a kick serve every time. Because of this, he has to serve safe in the middle of the box. So it's a combination of playing it safe (counterpuncher's instinct/spirit) and having technical issues limiting his serving options. Look at Tsonga or Federer, their 2nd serve is an extension of their 1st serve, similar fluidity. Murray's isn't...they're chalk and cheese. Over his developmental years he's learnt to protect them by adding power on the 1st and developing amazing retrieving skills to protect his 2nd. Either way, he's not a great server, he's around 50th in the all time list for 1st or 2nd serve points won.

It's not too late to make some important but Murray's serving die was cast a long time ago. He's been able to mask the shortcomings well so far but I wonder at what cost to his back and mental fatigue.


Last edited by lydian on Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by summerblues Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:52 pm

Henman Bill wrote:Would I be right in saying that Murray has never been no 1, not even for a week?
That you most certainly would.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:00 am

Danny_1982 wrote:I agree with you Craig that his physical state isn't a problem. I think he does suffer from not being as mentally tough as the other 3 members of the now defunct 'big four'. Lendl filled a gap there big time.

But he also got him playing on the front foot. Gone were the mid court nothing forehands. Gone was the default position of 2 metres behind the baseline.

You might be right, a few good wins might bring some of those good habits back. I personally worry, I think he was dragged kicking and screaming into a more aggressive game, and he might want to revert to his reactive roots.

Also, in ten years I've never questioned his desire but I find myself doing that now. As Micky says in Rocky 3 'you ain't been hungry since you won that belt' and I wonder if his belly is full after Wimbledon.

Time will tell, and I hope my fears are wrong. But unless he plays as pro actively as Lendl made him play, I'm 100% sure he won't win another slam.

You and Craig might agree, but certainly not Murray, he felt to take down Rafa he needs more fitness and stamina and he thought he could achieve that without compromise of his skills, and it looked for a breif period from 2012 Olympics to 2013 Wimbledon.

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Post by summerblues Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:06 am

Henman Bill wrote:Would I be right in saying that Murray has never been no 1, not even for a week?
Also, as a sidenote, I had a look through the ATP data and it turns out that Andy spent less weeks in top 3 than Nole spent at No 1.

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Post by Born Slippy Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:11 am

lydian wrote:Mental AND technical for me. He's always had a weak 2nd serve, and it places strain on his back too due to hip placement. However, he's been aided by slower courts and a lack of guys able to go after his 2nd serve. Federer is the exception as he uses the chip & charge tactic against Murray a lot. This indicates just how weak Murray's 2nd serve is because Federer doesn't use this tactic against anyone else.

Part of the technical issue is also due to Murray's first serve, which is almost a hindrance, he has a lot of technical glitches there, its simply not a smooth motion. He also has variety issues there. For example, observe his serving patterns in the ad court - Murray goes outwide every time he has a break point against him or on an important point. He can hit it as fast as 137 mph outwide to the BH, however somewhat amazingly, Murray finds it almost impossible to serve down the middle T on the ad court much faster than say around 110mph. This is probably a pronation/timing issue. He's not particularly good at variety in serving and this also makes Murray's serve very predictable. When he misses his 1st serve, he has no change up 2nd serve to the FH and so almost has no option but to serve a kick serve every time. Because of this, he has to serve safe in the middle of the box. So it's a combination of playing it safe (counterpuncher's instinct/spirit) and having technical issues limiting his serving options. Look at Tsonga or Federer, their 2nd serve is an extension of their 1st serve, similar fluidity. Murray's isn't...they're chalk and cheese. Over his developmental years he's learnt to protect them by adding power on the 1st and developing amazing retrieving skills to protect his 2nd. Either way, he's not a great server, he's around 50th in the all time list for 1st or 2nd serve points won.

It's not too late to make some important but Murray's serving die was cast a long time ago. He's been able to mask the shortcomings well so far but I wonder at what cost to his back and mental fatigue.

Yeah, tend to agree with the technical issues on the 1st. The one down the middle on the ad side is always a slice - he doesn't often (if at all) hit a big one down there. He also collapses on it - particularly under pressure. He does have a change up second serve though - doesn't use it often (risk averse?) but he has a decent 90-100 mph slider.

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Post by invisiblecoolers Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:14 am

lydian wrote: Either way, he's not a great server, he's around 50th in the all time list for 1st or 2nd serve points won.


You are in a super generous mood Lyd, otherwise how on earth he would feature on top 50 list of servers all time, did you quickly forget 90's under rated players, so many survived 90's just coz of their serve.

I would put Murray in top 100 bracket when comes to serve certainly not 50.

I can atleast think of these players ahead of him in the current tour in no particular order

1]Roger Federer
2]Novak Djokovic
3]Rafa Nadal
4]Ivo Karlovic
5]John Isner
6]Milos Raonic
7]Del Potro
8]Marian Cilic
9]Kevin Anderson
10]Sam Querry
11]Kei Nishikori
12]Jo Wilfred Tsonga
13]Ernest Gulbis
14]Feliciano Lopez
15]Jurgen Melzer
16]Grigor Dimitrov
17]Richard Gasquet
18]Jeremy Chardy
19]Lukus Rosol
20]Fernando Verdasco
21]Thomas Berdych
22]Giles Muller
23]Nick Kyrgios
24]Martin Klizan
25]Radek Stephanek
26]Tommy Haas
27]Jack Sock
28]Julien Benneteau
29]Steve Johnson
30]Leonardo Mayer

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