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Post by Pal Joey on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 3:56 pm

I have to say that I'm getting more and more angry when I read about the general escalation of needless and brainless violence on the streets... often initiated by some of the most trivial reasons. Accidentally bumping into some person in a bar, waiting in a queue for something, snapping up that parking pace (which is rightfully yours) or even simply looking in the direction of someone coming your way on the footpath. It seems certain people have no tolerance for others and have the propensity to grossly over-react to a given situation. It's not right is it?

Had this uncomfortable experience the other day down at my local when I popped in for a quick feed around 6pm. I had just settled down in the dining area and was watching Australia getting dismantled by SA on one of the big screens (the other one was showing The Block or something) when there suddenly appeared this feisty group of individuals... all het up about something... acting like 5 year olds... every second word "I" or "fhcuk". There were about 8 or 10 of them. None of them drinking (against their religion... nothing against that... but why come to a bar?) and did I mention that they were talking (if you could call it that - half English/half another language) very loudly and showed no respect to the other patrons or had no concept of behaving in an orderly way.

Taking a look at them with their silly little beards and poxy faces - I really felt like going up to them and saying: "can you guys please keep it down.... there are other people here too you know" - but at that same moment, the lady manager (who doesn't suffer fools) went up to them and told them to move on. However, as I left, I noticed they had only shifted through the doors of the dining area and into the Public Bar area.

Later that night I was listening to the radio when the news broke. There had been a shooting in a street just up from the pub. I immediately put 2 and 2 together. Must be those same guys in the pub I saw earlier. Anyway, the cops were on to them quick-smart and did what they had to do.

However, I've been thinking a lot about this type of situation. What is wrong with these people? (pardon the rhetoric)
They have absolutely no sense of shame or wrong-doing. Intelligence: not detected. It's all about big mouthing themselves and threatening other people. We've had some shopkeepers put up IS flags... which have been quickly removed by the Police. Things could so easily spill out into the wider population though (all it takes is one silly act... again) and it wouldn't surprise me to see the kind of social unrest we saw here about 10 years ago when things came to a head.

I've also read a recent article on the situation in Rotherham. It's the same everywhere it seems. For that to make the front page of the SMH when we are also having to deal with (or be informed of) the current situations in Ukraine, Russia, Somalia, Syria, Iraq, Israel, Gaza, Nigeria, etc... on an hourly basis it seems - just confirms to me that we have all just about lost the plot. Things will get much worse before they can get better - if that is ever achievable. It all just makes me so annoyed.

At every level; from individual to individual; family to family; gang to gang, country to country - we will have our hands full trying to keep the peace. I'm essentially an optimist but lately things just seem to be getting far worse than I ever would have predicted.

What do you think should be done to have a little bit of peace & quiet back and get on with our lives without being constantly interrupted by these increasing torrents of shocking events?
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Post by kingraf on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 5:06 pm

Nothing can be done mate. We've been extremely fortunate to make it this far without a new world war, especially given the flaws in the peace treaties signed up many moons ago. While I see the thought behind it, giving Israel it's own state as an apology for killing six million Jews was perhaps never going to end well. While the Crimean war was really just a matter of time. Chin up mate. It's spring in the Southern hemi, we've got clean air, and you're still alive. Could be worse. We could be Enhlish
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 02 Sep 2014, 7:49 pm

Things will get a lot worse before they get better you are right about that

Today more then ever society is driven by world events. We have access to every Nation via media but what the media presents is 100% negative. People are on edge. Tensions are ignited by what we are spoon fed every day about the state of the world and to make things worse we are told that what's happening over there, is on its way here.

Negativity breeds negativity. Events at play in the world are bringing out the worst in people. There is a lot of distrust and hate between people.because they are conditioned to do so by a government and media that are determined to frighten you. It does not have to be that way.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 10:12 am

Here's my take on it. It was only a matter of time before many of the millions of wargame junkies grew up and tired of the 'lack of realism' of their favourite Shoot-em-up, darkened-out-bedroom Franchises.

So they want to see what the real thing feels like  (both War itself and Daylight)
....and, for a start, many of them are quickly finding out there is no Restart button if you fail your mission.  But they don't care.  That's another scourge of the Network generation - kids who think they'll be able to look down on their own funerals as their buddies say nice things about them on Twitter.  That's the second thing that ain't true, but obviously they never get the opportunity to realise that one.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 10:39 am

Sympton of the general breakdown of society. Massive absence of respect, responsbility and general moral fibre in modern society.

Controversial, but my personal belief is that it is a result of the elevation of the 'R' of 'rights' above the 'R's of 'respect' and 'responsibility'.

I.e. it is my opinion that the responsibility not to be a c*nt is more important than the right to be one. Problem is everyone these days just acts like a-holes because they get to go around banging on about "my rights" this and "my rights" that.

Noticed it over a decade ago at school, in simplistic terms. As I was growing up there was a known and respected heirarchy on the school bus - as you moved up the years, the further to the back you were allowed to sit. You know that, as a yr7 or 8, if you tried to pinch a spot on the back seat you got put in your place by a yr 11/12/13 (verbally and likely physically) and that was just the way it was. Bus was settled and there was order.

By the time I got to years 11/12/13 you couldn't do anything because the little pip-squeaks would just run off and tell teached and get people into trouble. Bit like that Simpsons (or is it Family Guy) bit where the schoolkids say "hey, let's got hit the janitor knowing he can't legally hit us back".

No respect.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 11:28 am

Or its just u lads looking back with rose tinted glasses. Agree with kingraf, surprised we havnt had ww3. Humans are violent and always have been. Fly how is your description of a 'network generation' kid any different from religious people looking down from heaven?
Tophat, I do agree there is a lack of respect but I'm almost certain that throughout history the older generations have thought this of the the younger ones. As annoying as precious dickheds spouting off about their human rights does my head in, truth is they make for a better and fairer society. If peoples human rights were upheld all over the world then much of this violence would prob be avoided.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 11:56 am

Yes, there's always been a conflict between young & old (look at the 70s punk movement) but it's never manifested itself the way it does now.

And re the 'rights' point, if you get the other two 'R's right (in a modern civilised developed country like the UK) then 'rights' are a much less significant issue. As, right now, they simply become a crutch for bad people to use to excuse their behaviour (e.g. look at how much revolting criminals get away with with various guises of 'rights' arugments).

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 12:03 pm

The rights issue needs to be ammended not discarded thats all.

Stupid situations like a man not being deported because he has a cat is obviously nonsense Teresa May is a joke and out of her depth.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 12:16 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:The rights issue needs to be ammended not discarded thats all.

Stupid situations like a man not being deported because he has a cat is obviously nonsense Teresa May is a joke and out of her depth.

Agreed.

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 2:11 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:Or its just u lads looking back with rose tinted glasses. Agree with kingraf, surprised we havnt had ww3. Humans are violent and always have been. Fly how is your description of a 'network generation' kid any different from religious people looking down from heaven?
Tophat, I do agree there is a lack of respect but I'm almost certain that throughout history the older generations have thought this of the the younger ones. As annoying as precious dickheds spouting off about their human rights does my head in, truth is they make for a better and fairer society. If peoples human rights were upheld all over the world then much of this violence would prob be avoided.

One: I'm too old and have lived far to close to real and actual warfare in my time to be guilty of any rose-tintedism.  Every generation has its conflicts - evolution seems to require it. But knowing that fact doesn't excuse the current young generation of their reasons for wanting to kick up a violent fuss on streets or in deserts.  

Two: There will be an eternity of 'social' reasons thrown up as to why people want to fight and conduct war but one of the main reasons is testosterone and its relationship with the concept of adventure.  For some, war is the highest high in terms of sport.  The stakes are ultimately high but the charge is forever alluring to each generation that comes up.  So people can mumble all they like about 'youth feeling excluded from society' or 'religious doctrines' etc, etc...but the truth is many of the combatants in the present wars are involved for the drug of being high - the computer game gone beyond the virtual.

Three: The relationship between the 'network generation' kid and religion is the very point I was making.  Some say religion is dead and that it's dying because of the very prevalence of social media and the new connected generations.  I say Twitter/Facebook, etc IS the new Heaven.  So when some liberal free thinkers choose to blame 'religion' for the very wars we talk about, I say those people don't have a very good understanding of evolution OR the very instruments (social media) they use to propagate their theory.  Just as we will always have War.... we will also always have 'religion' (in whatever guise it might be - Communisim was another brand of it even though communists tried to call themselves atheists).  War and religion - the human condition is genetically linked to both.

Four:  'Human rights' are relative to the people or groups of people looking for them.  What you consider a human right wouldn't necessarily correspond with what a person in perhaps Pakistan or even the USA would consider to be one.  Example: some people in the US think it is their human right to defend themselves and their property by use of high powered automatic rifles and machine guns.  In the UK, that is not considered a right but instead the holding of such weapons is considered a crime.  Thus the conflict of human interest human rights across the globe and thus wars.  Man will always invent a whole host of reason to go to war - war is the constant, the 'reasons' are the excuses that trigger it from generation to generation.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 3:41 pm

Fly, I thought you were saying the new generation were different from before, sorry seems we agree. 100% with you on there will always be something acting like a religion. When I said rose tinted glasses I didn't just mean your lifetime. I always hear people going on about old values etc and I'm sorry but its bollox. There are plenty of people around now with good character. In regards to human rights, yes some places are different but the core is the same. I thought in USA right to bear arms was a right in their constitution but wouldn't be seen as a human right.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 3:52 pm

Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

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Post by incontinentia on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 4:01 pm

SecretFly wrote:
One: I'm too old and have lived far to close to real and actual warfare in my time to be guilty of any rose-tintedism.  Every generation has its conflicts - evolution seems to require it. But knowing that fact doesn't excuse the current young generation of their reasons for wanting to kick up a violent fuss on streets or in deserts.  

Two: There will be an eternity of 'social' reasons thrown up as to why people want to fight and conduct war but one of the main reasons is testosterone and its relationship with the concept of adventure.  For some, war is the highest high in terms of sport.  The stakes are ultimately high but the charge is forever alluring to each generation that comes up.  So people can mumble all they like about 'youth feeling excluded from society' or 'religious doctrines' etc, etc...but the truth is many of the combatants in the present wars are involved for the drug of being high - the computer game gone beyond the virtual.

Three: The relationship between the 'network generation' kid and religion is the very point I was making.  Some say religion is dead and that it's dying because of the very prevalence of social media and the new connected generations.  I say Twitter/Facebook, etc IS the new Heaven.  So when some liberal free thinkers choose to blame 'religion' for the very wars we talk about, I say those people don't have a very good understanding of evolution OR the very instruments (social media) they use to propagate their theory.  Just as we will always have War.... we will also always have 'religion' (in whatever guise it might be - Communisim was another brand of it even though communists tried to call themselves atheists).  War and religion - the human condition is genetically linked to both.

Four:  'Human rights' are relative to the people or groups of people looking for them.  What you consider a human right wouldn't necessarily correspond with what a person in perhaps Pakistan or even the USA would consider to be one.  Example: some people in the US think it is their human right to defend themselves and their property by use of high powered automatic rifles and machine guns.  In the UK, that is not considered a right but instead the holding of such weapons is considered a crime.  Thus the conflict of human interest human rights across the globe and thus wars.  Man will always invent a whole host of reason to go to war - war is the constant, the 'reasons' are the excuses that trigger it from generation to generation.
Great post clap
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 4:21 pm

kingjohn7 wrote:Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

1. We showed respect for the elder kids, when we were the youngers. Respect for their authority, even if only 'playground' authority. Breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness.

2. Re your human rights point. If I had cancer of the inner ear, I wouldn't say "I'm fine, it's just a tiny little part of me, so on the whole I'm healthy". I'd say I've got a serious problem and it needs fixing, for the good of my wider health. It's all very well saying "only a tiny minority", but what about when that scum re-offends (as is so often the case)? Would you feel the same if you or a friend/family member were their victim?

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 4:28 pm

I think that human rights needs to be upheld but if you commit a crime and you are found guilty then you loose it.

Rapists and murderers and terrorists should not be able to use human rights.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 4:47 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

1. We showed respect for the elder kids, when we were the youngers.  Respect for their authority, even if only 'playground' authority.  Breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness.

2. Re your human rights point.  If I had cancer of the inner ear, I wouldn't say "I'm fine, it's just a tiny little part of me, so on the whole I'm healthy".  I'd say I've got a serious problem and it needs fixing, for the good of my wider health.  It's all very well saying "only a tiny minority", but what about when that scum re-offends (as is so often the case)? Would you feel the same if you or a friend/family member were their victim?

I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.

Your second point is a false analogy. The cancer in your analogy isn't human rights, it's anti-social behaviour.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:12 pm

I think in addition to SF and Toppys posts - I think Isis in particular and other extremist groups of religion - their success lies in their own brand of puritanism. The same misery they inflict on others they inflict on themselves at least on the surface. So dopey bastards who want glory will be drawn towards them. Hey at least this guy isnt a hypocrite - not bothering to look past the surface - that their whole ethos is a hypocrisy. Whereas he'll look at an mp who is a thief escaping with a slap on the wrist or Mr Tony Blair being a peace envoy, and think Frak it. People like that only need an excuse and once they're in they get caught up in the cowpat like every other group of anything in the world and become entrenched.

I would wholeheartedly recommend Muqqadimah (the book!) by Ibn Khaldun and the particular section on empire. Bit of rubbish in there which the author acknowledges as the info only available to him as the second caliph had burned the rest (bastard). But hes more or less captured whats happening to the western world. Seven stages of empire stuff.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:20 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.
thumbsup

Im throwing 'respect' out of my window now anyway. Just a bit of common decency shown to all is the way to go.

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Post by kingjohn7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:22 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.
thumbsup
Im throwing 'respect' out of my window now anyway. Just a bit of common decency shown to all, young or old, weak or powerful. Hug

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Post by Rowley on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:39 pm

'Tis the lot of every generation to be outraged by the violence and lack of respect from the generations that follow them. Our shock and dismay at the perceived lack of respect is no worse than that of our parents or grandparents with the mods and rockers or punks, depending how old you are. Will be a matter of time before you all start whining that you could leave your doors open when you were a lad etc etc.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:50 pm

Rowley wrote:'Tis the lot of every generation to be outraged by the violence and lack of respect from the generations that follow them. Our shock and dismay at the perceived lack of respect is no worse than that of our parents or grandparents with the mods and rockers or punks, depending how old you are.

I feel sorry for the kids sometimes, they cant do anything right. I was thinking about how particularly bad it is in Britain - whether the demonising of youth was the result of a generation who lived through the wars ramming it into the kids throats how easy they had it and how spoiled they were. The following generations getting the same treatment because of how they were raised and so forth. I thought of something that was loosely connected - when our parents told kids, that theyd better study otherwise they'd end up working at Mcdonalds or burger king. So after instilling them with arrogance and set the failure bar at working at mcdonalds - kids with degrees are called spoiled, selfish arrogant and entitled for not being willing to work these jobs. Yet this is an arrogance our parents put there - by demeaning a job thats usually occupied by people who are willing to work hard to fund studies. So I guess I feel sorry for em because they are what we made them or will make them as long as we keep treating em like the scum of the earth.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:52 pm

Respect is a 2 way street.

Look at how society has changed. Its all by design not random. The breakdown of society is the perfect way to implement martial law on the masses. Society today is bombarded by sex and violence the 2 things that can ruin a human soul.

Take the wars happening around the world. We see extreme acts oF violence and feel nothing because we have been desensitized to it all. We can watch people being killed and feel nothing. The young play violent video games and you wonder why they are the way they are?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 5:54 pm

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

1. We showed respect for the elder kids, when we were the youngers.  Respect for their authority, even if only 'playground' authority.  Breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness.

2. Re your human rights point.  If I had cancer of the inner ear, I wouldn't say "I'm fine, it's just a tiny little part of me, so on the whole I'm healthy".  I'd say I've got a serious problem and it needs fixing, for the good of my wider health.  It's all very well saying "only a tiny minority", but what about when that scum re-offends (as is so often the case)? Would you feel the same if you or a friend/family member were their victim?

I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.

Your second point is a false analogy. The cancer in your analogy isn't human rights, it's anti-social behaviour.

Call it law of the jungle if that makes you feel better, it preserved balance and order.

The ASB is preserved by HR law giving to much leeway and offering to greater protection to the criminal at expense of the victim. If a violent r@pist cannot get deported due to HR law and re-offends, that victim has suffered due to the misapplication of HR law. Therefore it is the problem as it is what has given the scumbag the opportunity to carry out the crime.

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Post by jbeadlesbigrighthand on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 6:00 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

1. We showed respect for the elder kids, when we were the youngers.  Respect for their authority, even if only 'playground' authority.  Breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness.

2. Re your human rights point.  If I had cancer of the inner ear, I wouldn't say "I'm fine, it's just a tiny little part of me, so on the whole I'm healthy".  I'd say I've got a serious problem and it needs fixing, for the good of my wider health.  It's all very well saying "only a tiny minority", but what about when that scum re-offends (as is so often the case)? Would you feel the same if you or a friend/family member were their victim?

I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.

Your second point is a false analogy. The cancer in your analogy isn't human rights, it's anti-social behaviour.

Call it law of the jungle if that makes you feel better, it preserved balance and order.

The ASB is preserved by HR law giving to much leeway and offering to greater protection to the criminal at expense of the victim.  If a violent r@pist cannot get deported due to HR law and re-offends, that victim has suffered due to the misapplication of HR law.  Therefore it is the problem as it is what has given the scumbag the opportunity to carry out the crime.

Why are balance and order inherently desirable? That question is particularly pertinent if the 'balance' involves injustice.

It is true that human rights laws can be abused to protect criminals. However, the operative word there is 'abused'. Human rights laws in fact protect society from abuse, protecting the weak from the strong. If they are abused, then it is the implementation of the law, rather than the law itself, that is wrong.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 6:08 pm

It makes me laugh when people talk about abandoning certain rights that people before us fought long and hard for. Now we live in a climate of fear partly orchastrated by the government and you are happy to throw your rights out the window. You are playing into their hands. They want to take your rights that you enjoy from you but it would be far easier for them if you give it away.

So they devise a climate of fear. Patriot act in the US, and terror laws in the UK. Color coding threats to keep the masses on edge its all bullsh*t. They will use terror to justify the removal of your rights as a citizen all in the name of national security.


The Americans trained and armed the Taliban. 20 years later the taliban are the threat. The US and Britain trained and armed the so called Syrian rebals. Less then 4 years later they are now ISIS.

And you guys lap it up.

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Post by Hibbz on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 6:35 pm

I think any violence on Mike Skinner is entirely justified. Irritating little Brummie tw@t. Dry your eyes mate.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:39 pm

I'd love a study which clearly indicated whether or not random acts of violence, etc has increased... I'm not sure they have, but I don't want to jump to conclusions.

As for the current situation in the middle East... Well, Asia does seen to self implode every ten to fifteen years. ISIS will come and they'll go, and there will be a new one, and one after that. Reality is, there was once an Islamic state (even if not in name) , and it was carved up without their Permission, or Input... Whether it was right or wrong is a separate matter, but it was always going to have very angry parties
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 03 Sep 2014, 7:56 pm

I wish people would just use their brain and see what's really going on.

The fault lies with these corrupt world leaders on both sides East and West. They were charged with bringing peace and stability to the world yet we have the opposite. Its all a game to basically make the already rich even richer.

Don't believe me?

Ask yourself this Is America at war with Islam? Many seem to think so. Watch the news for the past ten years and it looks like they are yet America is close partners with Saudi Arabia who's own brand of Wahabi Islam is the most strict. The Saudi's are basically the Taliban with money.

Ask yourself this, Was America at war with Communism? Many seemed to think so back in the 70's and 80's. Study your history books and it clearly looked like that yet America's biggest trading partner was and is China??????

All a game played out in the media so people like most of you who post on here see the world as 1 big cowboy and Indian saloon brawl.

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Post by Derbymanc on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 5:53 am

I thought China had only recently become a big trading partner with the US, isn't that why we're trying to schmooze up to them now???

You need to remember ONETWO that near enough every country is out to get what's best for it. Noone is really trying to do 'whats best for the world'.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 7:55 am

Derbymanc wrote:I thought China had only recently become a big trading partner with the US, isn't that why we're trying to schmooze up to them now???

You need to remember ONETWO that near enough every country is out to get what's best for it. Noone is really trying to do 'whats best for the world'.

Very true

but this is the reason the world is in the state it is. I blame the leaders of the world. They have really let the people down. From dictators to elected officials, they have put power and greed ahead of the soverign people and they use patriotism as the driving force behind who we like and who we hate.

As for China. The US are fighting a war over parts of the world behind closed doors. Nations in places like Africa and parts of latin America and even the Carribean are now looking towards the East as potential partners because they are offering better deals for them.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 9:23 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:I thought China had only recently become a big trading partner with the US, isn't that why we're trying to schmooze up to them now???

You need to remember ONETWO that near enough every country is out to get what's best for it. Noone is really trying to do 'whats best for the world'.

Very true

but this is the reason the world is in the state it is. I blame the leaders of the world. They have really let the people down. From dictators to elected officials, they have put power and greed ahead of the soverign people and they use patriotism as the driving force behind who we like and who we hate.

As for China. The US are fighting a war over parts of the world behind closed doors. Nations in places like Africa and parts of latin America and even the Carribean are now looking towards the East as potential partners because they are offering better deals for them.

Yeah, the Chinese now have an insatiable appetite for cruise ships operating in exotic places. Just catching up (and overtaking) the rest of us I suppose.

Doesn't China have the US by the cohones (financially speaking) due to the fact that they took up some massive loans from them in USD?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 9:35 am

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingjohn7 wrote:Tophat, in your example of the school bus, in which place is less respect shown? In fairness whoever gets to seat first should have it. That the older years think they should have it is based on what??? Size, strength, previous experience? Sorry that's just law of the jungle not society. Don't get me wrong I would defo be kicking the youngsters off the back seats but that's just because its the way it is.
Also in regards to human rights, yes you do hear some ridiculous examples of things but we have a population of about 60m? So a few problem cases is an OK penalty to pay for benefit of so many,in my book anyway.

1. We showed respect for the elder kids, when we were the youngers.  Respect for their authority, even if only 'playground' authority.  Breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness.

2. Re your human rights point.  If I had cancer of the inner ear, I wouldn't say "I'm fine, it's just a tiny little part of me, so on the whole I'm healthy".  I'd say I've got a serious problem and it needs fixing, for the good of my wider health.  It's all very well saying "only a tiny minority", but what about when that scum re-offends (as is so often the case)? Would you feel the same if you or a friend/family member were their victim?

I can't agree with any of your first point. That's wasn't respect, it was fear of getting the snot beaten out of you. What is 'playground' authority? The strong beating up the weak is not authority, it's power. As for "breakdown of that respect causes lawlessness" - I don't know what you're trying to say by that. At best, it seems to be a platitude - At worst, a man sausage-eyed justification of power imbalance using the suggestion that anarchy will prevail if the weak don't know their place.

Your second point is a false analogy. The cancer in your analogy isn't human rights, it's anti-social behaviour.

Call it law of the jungle if that makes you feel better, it preserved balance and order.

The ASB is preserved by HR law giving to much leeway and offering to greater protection to the criminal at expense of the victim.  If a violent r@pist cannot get deported due to HR law and re-offends, that victim has suffered due to the misapplication of HR law.  Therefore it is the problem as it is what has given the scumbag the opportunity to carry out the crime.

Why are balance and order inherently desirable? That question is particularly pertinent if the 'balance' involves injustice.

It is true that human rights laws can be abused to protect criminals. However, the operative word there is 'abused'. Human rights laws in fact protect society from abuse, protecting the weak from the strong. If they are abused, then it is the implementation of the law, rather than the law itself, that is wrong.

They don't though, that's the problem.

That may have been their intention, what was desired by their creation, but it was short-sightedness as if they'd got someone more cynical to advise rather than wide-eyed frilly liberals, it would have been pointed out that by putting something relatively common sense into law it was only ever going to be abused by those looking to take advantage.

I've no issue with the intention, it's the application and practical reality where the failings are and the amendments needed.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 9:38 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It makes me laugh when people talk about abandoning certain rights that people before us fought long and hard for. Now we live in a climate of fear partly orchastrated by the government and you are happy to throw your rights out the window. You are playing into their hands. They want to take your rights that you enjoy from you but it would be far easier for them if you give it away.

That isn't want I'm talking about though.

I'm talking about fit-for-purpose amendments, not throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

For example, the treatment of foreign criminals. Nobody in this country fought or died so that some Somalian r@pist could stay in this country and not be deported back to Somalia. We're not talking about taking away the right to vote, or to stop the push for equality etc.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 10:20 am

All boils down to one thing..Lack of ROLE MODELS......

Country desperately needs more sports clubs, Youth clubs...basically places to get kids off the streets and into an environment where they can earn and get respect....In their all important teenage years...

Especially in the more deprived areas..

These clubs tend to bring the local community together more and brings more cohesion to the area..........

No kid is born bad.......But he can have Parents that don't care...Or maybe a struggling single parent who finds it hard to give the attention he needs !!......

Which is why it's important he has a local place to go where he can talk to people or get involved with something that can develop his self worth...

Kids need good people to look up to............

Needs to be more funding for good people prepared to give up their time for the kids in their area.........and luckily there are plenty of these people about....

Let's use them..


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 10:33 am

Agreed re role models.

Never been a massive fan of the whole 'more sport/social clubs' argument though, always feels like a bit of an excuse. I remember having an afterschool 'club' 4 days a week when in primary school, but nothing of the sort in secondary, and I never went out rioting on the streets, or vandalising, or mugging etc.

But then, as you say, I had good positive role models - my parents. I was brought up 'properly' and taught to have fun but respect other people and their possessions/property.

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Post by Pal Joey on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 10:39 am

That's kind of exactly how I see it, Truss. The "R" words as mentioned above.

Respect, Responsibility, Reasonableness and Role Models. That last one has got lost in many modern societies.
It's very hard to reason to some youngsters about who they should look up to when they are missing the first 3. That's the fight the losing battle bit. People can change over time as they experience more and gain a little more wisdom and knowledge though, I realise.

Rights have been hard earned but they are also being misunderstood or abused or misused (either deliberately or mistakenly) in some cases.
It's very hard to even make a reasoned suggestion or even present your own ideas to some people today without being (sometimes incorrectly) ridiculed or copping a severe over-reaction or worse still - that blank look.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 10:57 am

Agree with both of you.......

There is no one size fits all..............But boredom and a lack of discipline can be a terrible combination..

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 11:17 am

The true evil of war is that men in suits, usually far removed from the true risks of war, constantly try to sanitise the concept by inevitably having meetings and treaties and agreements and wine dinners with bowties (Present NATO meeting will have those I assume?) to work out the RULES of war.

Groups who go against the RULES of war are seen as depraved and animalistic and ghastly and...etc, etc - whilst those who go by the RULES of war are considered gentlemanly, statesmanly, civilised and downright noble.

But war is killing people.  An innocent dead guy, child or woman doesn't give a damn how they've died, they just don't like being dead - period Wink  

Israel kills thousands and yet it wants the mantra to go forth that they did so in a civilised, ordered way - with due attention to the art and rules of warfare.  They warned civilians to leave, the offered ceasefires so that decent folk could collect things from their bombed neighbourhoods (including dead relatives), they declared that the killing was with due respect to the rule of self-defence and some of them even went to the extent of saying their 'war' was justified because afterall they are a free, civilised, democratic country whilst Palestine is ruled by thugs who don't give their citizens the same rights as Israeli citizens.

In other words - the thousands of Palestinians killed should understand that they were killed by good people and for a good cause - people who obeyed the rules of warfare.

The sanitisation of one innocent's death over another is the real evil of all war.  And I'm not picking exclusively on Israel here.  The excuse has been used all through history.  America nuked civilian Japanese cities - and said 'we had to do it to shorten the war'; unfortunate Japanese innocents who should appreciate they were killed by good people for good reasons.  Churchill pummelled Dresden and other cities to dust - more poor civilians who needed a killing so that good people could achive good and noble results.

War is never noble.  Ask some of the soldiers who landed on the beaches during D-Day.  Some of the American soldiers admitted they did some ignoble things on the day that still haunt them but in the overall scheme of things, their killings is considered more noble than the killings of their 'evil' enemy.  War doesn't have a sweet sounding, soulful classic piece of music as a soundtrack running in the background to all the blood, noise and guts - and yet that's the 'noble' way many history programmes and movies choose to paint it.

War is war and innocents die in them and they don't give a damn if it was by a clean and clinical bullet, or that they were mangled by shrapnel from a bomb, or whether they were gassed.  Death is death.  And the sickening thing for me is how the living, in their lovely suits and ties, talk about the dead and about-to-be-dead in terms of laws and rules of warfare.

"Today we call a ceasefire - but some of you who are listening to this announcement and who will be relieved to hear it and happy to live through it, will be dead by this time tomorrow because we end the ceasefire tonight.  Enjoy the short life you have left, signed Important World Leader and Statesman in Suit and Tie."

So the 'West' prepare to attack Isis in Syria, yes, probably necessary.  But innocent Syrians will die as a result, every bit as innocent as the trapped Iraqi hordes on the mountaintop who were surrounded by Isis.  But at least this time the innocents will again know they are being killed for a good cause and by good people.  That's all you can ask for when you sacrifice your life so that men in suits and ties can dine out on warplan cheese and wine chats.

I'm not a pacifist.  I do believe there are times you have to fight for your ideals and your ways of life.  I don't believe in walking quietly to your own execution so yes, war is necessary as there will always be those who want to impose their views on you by force and you must react with force to repel them.  But there is no noble truth to war itself.  We all become animals when we engage in it.

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Post by kingraf on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 5:24 pm

Well... post of the year to the year right there. It's amusing isn't it, "We're going to defend the lives of the innocent in place X, unfortunately the innocents in place Y are gonna die as a result... This is necessary" Bloody Brilliant.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 5:26 pm

You might be a irritating Kumquat secretfly but you do hit the nail head on sometimes

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Post by SecretFly on Thu 04 Sep 2014, 8:14 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:You might be a irritating Kumquat secretfly but you do hit the nail head on sometimes

Wink And where have I irritated you before ShahenshahG? I know I have a long history in that department, sure enough, but so long is the list of people I niggle that I always forget when and where I've niggled Wink


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 9:30 am

Funny how a potentially inflammatory topic can be discussed quite maturely (even with some strong personalities and opinions) when CS isn't around........

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Post by Pal Joey on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 1:40 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Funny how a potentially inflammatory topic can be discussed quite maturely (even with some strong personalities and opinions) when CS isn't around........

Yeah, I was probably taking a bit of a risk here but everyone so far has made some good contributions. Think you are right about the reason why.
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Post by Rowley on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 2:24 pm

War, huh, What is it good for? Absolutely nothing, say it again.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 05 Sep 2014, 3:05 pm

As erudite as ever, Rowls.

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