Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

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Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Sun 07 Sep 2014, 7:36 pm

Anyone who has been watching SA cricket for the last six odd months has by now seen, a few times, Dale Steyn produce some ridiculously prodigious movement with the older ball. It's fast it's late, it's unplayable. Maybe the best he's ever bowled in his life. But is it reverse swing, or is the something newer at work? I ask because, surely it has to be too soon for the ball to be reversing like that? I know SA has been under the spotlight with ball tampering, and such, but even if guilty, I'm not sure they could be doing sufficient damage to the ball (under the watchful eye of the umpire) that quickly to explain some of the banana ball yorkers Steyn has produced.

It's obviously reverse swing, so my headline is a little misleading, but is it reverse swing as we know it?
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Mike Selig on Sun 07 Sep 2014, 11:37 pm

In fairness I imagine the pitches in Zimbabwe are very conductive to reverse.

Early reverse swing is not that unusual: England back in 2005 started reversing it after 10 overs a couple of times, and it's not uncommon to see reverse at the back-end of a T20 innings (after 15-17 overs say).

Could be that Steyn/SA has some new technique or could just be circumstances. Hard to tell.

As an aside has anybody here tampered with a ball to get it to reverse (outside a match of course, where that would be illegal)? Our U19s picked on a ball with bottle tops for a while then played a prank on one of our batsmen by unleashing it on him in training - it did fairly hoop all over the place, completely unplayable. Quite amusing...

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Mon 08 Sep 2014, 7:18 am

Thing is Mike, he's getting it to reverse early, and reverse hoops everywhere he's playing, irrespective of location. Majority of the time, he's the only one doing this. It's as if he's holding a different ball to everyone else. I'm not particularly surprised at early swing in England. The Duke lacquer wears off much quicker than the Kookaburra shine, so I'd expect it to be more conducive to early reverse. The Kookaburra, if taken care of, can still be swinging conventionally at 30-35 overs.

As for reverse practise. Ja, me and a few mates took particularly good care of one particular red devil, and even the spinners were getting unconventional drift. Was fun to watch.
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Thu 25 Sep 2014, 8:55 pm

You haven't seen the sultans of reverse swing at their peak, and they were the two W's of Pakistan Wasim and Waqar. Their swing was fast, deadly, reverse direction , accurate, unplayable and wicket taking ones.

While steyn is very good his late swings are not something most batsmans are super concerned about like how Waqar and Wasim where at their prime.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Fri 26 Sep 2014, 4:27 am

Which batsmen are these? If they aren't concerned, they really should be. Poor Rohit left one that that crashed into his middle stump. The ball before that, Pujara feathered one that swung in, and then tailed away. Haddin was completely dumbfounded twice in one match. He played the wrong line by about ten inches! If batsmen aren't worrying about Steyn's reverse, then batting coaches need their pay docked. How many batsmen need to prod outside off at balls crashing into middle and leg before it becomes a concern?
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Fri 26 Sep 2014, 6:50 pm

kingraf wrote:Which batsmen are these? If they aren't concerned, they really should be. Poor Rohit left one that that crashed into his middle stump. The ball before that, Pujara feathered one that swung in, and then tailed away. Haddin was completely dumbfounded twice in one match. He played the wrong line by about ten inches! If batsmen aren't worrying about Steyn's reverse, then batting coaches need their pay docked. How many batsmen need to prod outside off at balls crashing into middle and leg before it becomes a concern?

Haa , none of the batsman you quoted are world class legends of the game, Rohit gets out to even mediocre bowlers, Haddin is afterall a wicket keeper who is also good at bat but doesn't play just a specialist batsman, Pujara is a solid defensive player but that doesn't mean he should not have a bad game.

You came to conclusion with a very minute sample, nobody claims Dale Steyn is a poor swinger just saying you are over hyping a mole to a mammoth , like how you do in the Tennis forum about Rafa.

Why is the same Dale Steyn gets repeadedly hammered for 12 an over by Mr. so called Dhoni? do that mean Steyn is a very mediocre bowler? no, coz its again a small sample.

Steyn in general is legend of the game in fast bowling, but its more due to its speed and certainly not his reverse swing, Steyn wouldn't even feature in top 20 all time reverse swing bowlers.

There is a long list of Pakistani bowlers, then you have some Aussie, English, Vaas from Srilanka to add to that list.

I would pick Bret lee over Dale Steyn in my team on any given day, Brett had more speed, more vareity, more control, more conventional swing as well as reverse swing.

You can ask cricket forum on Waqar Wasim over Dale Steyn on reverse swing, and if you woudl argue Styen better than these two above I am sorry to say everybody will laugh at you.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Fri 26 Sep 2014, 9:17 pm

I think I'll just wait for Mike to write a 2,000 word essay on this... Not worth my time when literally no one in the cricket universe thinks there's a debate between Steyn and Lee. There's a 70 wicket difference in their column and Lee has played one extra match! Only thing Brett has on Steyn is speed, and that's negligible. Steyn has the inswinger outswinger, Slower ball, one that seams back in. The reverse swinger, and the one which reverses in and tails away.... Steyn not featuring top twenty swing bowlers is a joke, I'm assuming... I mean Vaas? He literally only had the in swinger. There's a reason he added the cutters to his game. My days Are you just hoping I don't actually watch cricket? Which. Australian was better at swing ?
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Raymond on Sun 28 Sep 2014, 3:45 pm

To Mr Directview

Are you an idiot!?!

Steyn is simply one the the best fast bowlers ever!! He is ever bit as good as Waqar and Wasim were if not better. He has more wickets in less matches than Waqar with a better average and strike rate, and if he goes on to play the same amount of matches as Wasim i'm sure he will end up with more wickets than him also. This is over a large sample size, ie their whole careers!!

PS why on earth would you pick brett lee over him, that just makes no sense what so ever..

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Sun 28 Sep 2014, 3:58 pm

Not even worth it tbh, Raymond. I actually think Waqar had the best single delivery in the game of all time with his banana yorker. But to suggest Steyn isn't even top twenty all time swing bowlers is ridiculous.
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Gerry SA on Sun 28 Sep 2014, 6:40 pm

Brett Lee more variety than Dale Steyn?

Lee had more variety...at being pounded to the boundary rope. That's about it.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Mike Selig on Sun 28 Sep 2014, 10:39 pm

Oh dear I go away for a week-end and then this happens...

Well to be fair Brett Lee was a better batsman than Steyn. And probably about as good a fielder (they were/are both fantastically athletic outfielders).

Bowling-wise though, erm no contest. Anywhere, on any pitch in any situation. Steyn can do everything Lee could do and better, and then do a whole lot more. It really is that simple.

Lee may have been a fraction quicker. That is all. However Steyn when he needs to can crank it up significantly. In fact one of the (many) things that is so impressive about Steyn is that he is able to bowl within himself (at 140 or so kph, which is hardly pedestrian) for long periods if he doesn't feel he has to strive for that extra pace, but if the pitch is flat, or the ball not doing much he cranks it up. I remember a spell against the West Indies where he basically went full and straight, and got 3 or 4 wickets for nothing, and that spell against the Indians when Sachin made one of the best hundreds I have ever seen.

Another thing underrated about Steyn is his bouncer - he uses it sparringly, but very well, and it usually comes at an awkward height (it is often harder to play the bouncer from a shorter bowler than somebody really tall for that reason).

Waqar at his peak was an absolutely brilliant bowler and his yorker was pretty much unplayable. However his peak was relatively short, and certainly the latter half of his career was on the poor side of average. Steyn by contrast seems to be able to maintain his high standards even as he gets older, and takes on new skills.

Wasim was a genius, and I would still rate him number 1 (or close to), but Steyn is top 10 and probably once his career finishes top 5 (since the war; hard to compare before then) no doubt about it (alongside Holding, Marshall and McGrath probably, but sometimes Ambrose or Truemann sneak in there). Brett Lee would struggle to make a top 40 or even 50 to be honest, and I love him to bits. There is simply no comparison there.

As for variety, well Steyn has the orthodox outswinger, the angled outswinger, the reverse outswinger, the reverse inswinger, a number of slower balls, the bouncer, the yorker. Not sure what else he's meant to have.

Lee was a good to very good bowler, and when he was hot he was very hot. However without looking it up, I believe he finished with an average a smudge above 30, and probably a strike rate in the low 50s. Now check the relative figures for Steyn...

As for Vass? erm.. ok. Vaas was a good accurate foil for Murali, kept things tidy picked up a couple of wickets, swung the new ball, decent off-cutter. And erm. ok. Right.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 4:14 pm

Interesting, Mike. Figured you'd have Mcgrath as your #1. I'm quite split between Mcgrath and Marshall personally. One I suppose they were both a little lucky in that they played for all time great teams. Mcgrath for example, averaged about 27 vs us, at a SR of 70+, but because he had Warne, and Lee and Gillespie at the other end... A team couldn't just see him off... He'd get you eventually. If Steyn retired today, with his record, his spells, the never before seen distance between him and the era's #2, I'd have him top 3. Hesitant to pick out a #1 as that comes with its own issues, but I'd be pretty comfortable in putting Steyn above Holding, for example, Wasim too.

My top five would probably be (in no order)
Mcgrath
Marshall
Steyn
Holding
Walsh.

I'm not always a longevity fan, but Walsh was phenomenal. Wasim and Waqar both crack my top ten-fifteen, though I'm pretty sure I'd have Waqar higher.
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 7:38 pm

kingraf wrote:The reverse swinger, and the one which reverses in and tails away.... Steyn not featuring top twenty swing bowlers is a joke, I'm assuming...  I mean Vaas? He literally only had the in swinger. There's a reason he added the cutters to his game. My days Are you just hoping I don't actually watch cricket? Which. Australian was better at swing ?

Now you are clearly confused or you haven't understood the term reverse swing at all, if you revert back to my post I did agree Steyn as a Legend in the fast bowling department and I just don't agree he is a legend of reverse swing bowling like your article stated.

Do you at the least agree now Steyn is not in the league of Wasim and Waqar when it comes to reverse swing?

Vaas had a very good reverse swing and thats one of the reason he was very deadly in sub-continent conditions.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 7:41 pm

Raymond wrote:To Mr Directview

Are you an idiot!?!

Steyn is simply one the the best fast bowlers ever!! He is ever bit as good as Waqar and Wasim were if not better. He has more wickets in less matches than Waqar with a better average and strike rate, and if he goes on to play the same amount of matches as Wasim i'm sure he will end up with more wickets than him also. This is over a large sample size, ie their whole careers!!

PS why on earth would you pick brett lee over him, that just makes no sense what so ever..

I am not but certainly you are, or just plain blind for jumping into a conversation like some stupid would do.

If you know to read,

1]I have already stated Steyn is a legend of fast bowling, go use your glasses.

2]This thread is about reverse swing and I purely rated Wasim and Waqar as the King of reverse swing and Steyn not in that league, but unfortunately a 7 year old kid like you would not read but plainly jump on some one.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 7:49 pm

@ Mike, I agree with your observation, but where would you rate Steyn purely on reverse swing alone, as this article is based on how deadly Steyn's reverse swing is.

I wouldn't even dare to compare Steyn to Imran Khan in reverse swing abilities.

There were so many reverse swing greats

1]Wasim , Waqar
3]Imran khan
4]Richard Hadlee
5]Denis Lillee
6]Jeff Thompson
7]Kapil Dev
8]Chaminda Vaas
9]Aquib Javed
10]S Akthar

Lot of sub continent bowlers purely relied on reverse swing and reverse swing alone to get wickets , Like Abdul Razzaq of Pakistan, Razzaq might not be even half as successful as Steyn is in terms of efficiency overall in bowling but he could get a lot of wickets purely by the reverse swinging craft.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 8:36 pm

Thomson and Lilee couldn't reverse swing it, or at least didn't consciously reverse the ball. They simply almost never used it.
Dev just wasn't very good. I can't imagine he'd have made it as a bowler in SA, Aus, or Pakistan. He averaged 30 in an era where sub-25 wasn't uncommon.Certainly not a new ball one.
Vaas may have been deadly in the right conditions.. but an average of 40+ in Australia, India, South Africa, England.... Averaging under 25 only in Zimbabwe, I just don't know what those conditions are. I mean his Subcontinent average is 28. Selectable... but hardly deadly.

Funny enough, for someone accusing people of not reading... you haven't done a particularly good job yourself. This thread wasn't about how good aa swing bowler Steyn is. It quite clearly just asks whether or not he's found a new way to make the ball swing so early. I then backed it up by also saying he's bowling the best he's ever bowled, which is hardly surprising as he's taken 84 wickets in fifteen Tests the last two years.

Comparisons between Steyn and Waqar are frivolous. They have different forms of reverse swing. Waqar was faster through the air, but it's much later with Steyn. That's why a lot of the time, the poor batsmen just play down the wrong line.
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by dummy_half on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 8:10 am

I'm with Mike on this one - there has never been a finer exponent of reverse swing than Wasim. Waqar may have had the better single ball, with in in-reversing yorker, but Wasim could bowl that almost as well and could get the ball to reverse the other way.

In his time with Lancashire, Wasim's death bowling in limited overs games was far too good for most County players - reverse outswing, straight one, reverse massive inswing and out LBW or bowled.

If Steyn is bowling anything like that quality with the old ball I fear for England next time we play you...

Closest I've seen for England was Simon Jones in the Ashes of 2005 - such a shame that his career was curtailed by injuries. Darren Gough was also a good reverse bowler, although I only remember him bowling inswingers. Like Steyn though in terms of height, bowling speed (Steyn can bowl faster on occasion when conditions suit, but both usually around the 140km/h mark) and 'natural' length.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Mike Selig on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 2:51 pm

Wasim was a genius with the ball. Did things which I thought was impossible. The way he could get the ball to angle one way and then swing sharply the other... just amazing.

Jones could reverse it both ways as well. Remember him setting up Matty Hayden 2nd innings at Edgbaston, brought one back in which Hayden smacked for 4 straight, then moved one away which Hayden nicked to Trescothick who took a good catch at wideish slip.

To be honest Zaheer Khan is/was a better reverse swing bowler than Vaas IMO. As raf has pointed out Lillee and Thomson were hardly known for their reverse swing abilities. Whilst I would personally rank Steyn all but 2 (Waqar, Wasim), possibly 3 (did Hadlee reverse it? I've gone blank now...) on that list, purely for reverse. When you factor in everything else, well...

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 6:13 pm

kingraf wrote:
Dev just wasn't very good. I can't imagine he'd have made it as a bowler in SA, Aus, or Pakistan. He averaged 30 in an era where sub-25 wasn't uncommon.Certainly not a new ball one.

Disagree , Steyn would not be as successful as Dev would be had he come from India and played on Indian conditions more than 65% of his matches.

Indian conditions never suited fast bowling and Dev was yet very successful to have bowled majority of his career at this conditions.

kingraf wrote:
Vaas may have been deadly in the right conditions.. but an average of 40+ in Australia, India, South Africa, England.... Averaging under 25 only in Zimbabwe, I just don't know what those conditions are. I mean his Subcontinent average is 28. Selectable... but hardly deadly.


Funny enough, for someone accusing people of not reading... you haven't done a particularly good job yourself. This thread wasn't about how good aa swing bowler Steyn is.

I guess we are talking about reverse swing in this thread and not fast bowling.

Thats not what your title says, its talks about Steyn reverse swing, unless your moronic friend and you gang up now to argue that reverse swing in the title meant just swing. laughing

kingraf wrote:
Comparisons between Steyn and Waqar are frivolous. They have different forms of reverse swing. Waqar was faster through the air, but it's much later with Steyn. That's why a lot of the time, the poor batsmen just play down the wrong line.

You got a genuine example and you backed out of the bouncer yet clean bowled here.

Waqar was 10x more deadly in terms of "reverse swing" than Steyn was or ever will be.

If we going to talk about Fast bowling or swing bowling in general then change the thread title or open a new thread.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by DirectView2 on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 6:14 pm

dummy_half wrote:I'm with Mike on this one - there has never been a finer exponent of reverse swing than Wasim. Waqar may have had the better single ball, with in in-reversing yorker, but Wasim could bowl that almost as well and could get the ball to reverse the other way.

In his time with Lancashire, Wasim's death bowling in limited overs games was far too good for most County players - reverse outswing, straight one, reverse massive inswing and out LBW or bowled.

If Steyn is bowling anything like that quality with the old ball I fear for England next time we play you...

Closest I've seen for England was Simon Jones in the Ashes of 2005 - such a shame that his career was curtailed by injuries. Darren Gough was also a good reverse bowler, although I only remember him bowling inswingers. Like Steyn though in terms of height, bowling speed (Steyn can bowl faster on occasion when conditions suit, but both usually around the 140km/h mark) and 'natural' length.

+1.

Simon Jones injury was a big loss for ECB, he was really one of the man during that ashes.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 7:17 pm

Yep... averaging 21 in the Subcontinent definitely shows how tough Steyn would have had there. Kapil averaging 38 in England, 42 in New Zealand... only serve to prove unfulfilled potential I assume?

I don't know what you're struggling to grasp. The article was a technical article, discussing the manner in which Steyn was achieving Swing. If you read Mike's post and my reply, you'll find words like "New techniques" and the differences in swing between the Duke and the Kookaburra. Funny enough, you won't find one sentence discussing who the greatest reverse swing, or conventional swing bowler is. You're quite obviously trying to wind me up, and it's beginning to irritate me to be honest. This is worse than the nonsense you posted during the world cup which got you banned.

Funny how Waqar was ten times deadlier reversing it. Seems to suggest his other skills musta been pis.spoor for Steyn to have eclipsed him in 12 tests less. Shame Waqar doesn't seem to agree with you though.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by Mike Selig on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:15 am

Who's your moronic friend raf? Is that me or someone else?

Anyway I stopped reading after the bit about Dev being a better bowler than Steyn in Indian conditions. Always thought Steyn was awesome on the subcontinent. In fact the only place he struggled with for a while was England (was fairly ordinary in his first tour there IIRC).

Going back to the original topic and having watched some highlights since then to try and figure things out a bit... I just don't know. The reverse is happening very early on in the games, and it seems to be moving very very late. None of this is that unusual (some bowlers have always swung it later than others, usually to do with their arm and wrist positions), and the pitches and outfields were very dry and abrasive. I couldn't pick up anything in the action or the way Steyn was holding the ball that suggested anything new, then again if there was something I'm fairly sure Steyn and SA would try to hide it.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by kingraf on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 4:23 pm

In my annoyance i actually forgot to reply to DH's post. Mate, I don't know about County, but Steyn is in a groove of note at the moment. Some of it has been really privilege to watch stuff. Just the Set up, the execution. Everything really. Ramping it at 150 clicks, Swinging away. Gets one to seam away from the lefties as well now. Reverse swing. It's all there. His ball against the Indians, where he got Pujara to nick one that tailed in, and with a metre to go, ever so slightly left him is as good as anything which he's done. As were his spells against Haddin in Port Elizabeth, where he cleaned him up all ends. Away swinger away swinger than the small reverse swinging ball to put doubts in the batsmans mind, than the coup de grace.The big away swinger, starts about about two stumps outside off, and with a quarter of its flight left, Dips like a weighted lead balloon. There goes middle. I'd hazard a guess and say if your line up could be taken out for very little by Sharma, I think over a four test series, Steyn would skittle you guys for chump change at least once. Only playing you in December 2015 though, so he might cool a little by then.

Watched replays of the Australia game in Harare. It really is incredibly late, and more noticeably, dips, and Dips late. I just wonder Mike if they're wetting the bottom half of the shiny side more than the top to make it heavier? I've never tried it, but logically speaking, with the four piece seam, and good communication, it isn't the most difficult of ideas to pull off. Might actually do that with a practise ball and my under 16s tonight and see how it goes.
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by KP_fan on Sun 05 Oct 2014, 7:33 pm

kingraf wrote:Anyone who has been watching SA cricket for the last six odd months has by now seen, a few times, Dale Steyn produce some ridiculously prodigious movement with the older ball. It's fast it's late, it's unplayable. Maybe the best he's ever bowled in his life. But is it reverse swing, or is the something newer at work? I ask because, surely it has to be too soon for the ball to be reversing like that? I know SA has been under the spotlight with ball tampering, and such, but even if guilty, I'm not sure they could be doing sufficient damage to the ball (under the watchful eye of the umpire) that quickly to explain some of the banana ball yorkers Steyn has produced.

It's obviously reverse swing, so my headline is a little misleading, but is it reverse swing as we know it?

it's OK buddy....do not read too much into it....much as you adore Steyn.
There is only conventional swing and reverse swing.....and nothing else.

and when it is not conventional swing.....which it is probably not when you refer to his "ridiculously prodigious movement"...then it is reverse.

within reverse there are categories....from gentle reverse that Bhuvi showed he could achieve even at 78mph to the more well know deadlier variety at 95mph end of the spectrum that made "Waqar the Star" that he was for some time.

and then there are "angles" which is a rarer sub-skill within the larger skill of getting reverse...Zaheer, Akram anbd recently both Anderson and Steyn have shown to exploit.

so when a 40 over old ball is angled in to pitch on the middle stump of a RHB at 93mph....and then it straightens enough to beat the best of human reflexes playing to cover the line and angle of the delivery...and plucks out the off stump......it looks a "peach"...a "spectacular Wow".....but it's just the speed and angle added to the known reverse that Steyn produces quite often
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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by msp83 on Tue 21 Oct 2014, 5:50 pm

Dale Steyn adding serious reverse to his skill set wouldn't thrill batsmen all over the world one bit, he's been harassing them for long without all that anyhow!. One of the very best ever, no doubt. Reverse is something he seems to have added as aserious skill though he has indeed reversed it at times before. He can bowl quick, and then realquick when the mood takes him. He swings it at pace, can depend on seem movement when there is no swing available. He can bowl a nasty bouncer, and bloody hell, he's reversing it big too!.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

Post by msp83 on Tue 21 Oct 2014, 5:56 pm

I don't know whether Steyn is among the top reverse swingers. the 2 Ws from Pakistan would be right there. then 2 others who have had sustained success with the skill have been Zaheer Khan and James Anderson. The latter has in fact gone on record that he was inspired by Zak in 2007 reversing it considerably.
Simon Jones was brilliant in the 05 Ashes, and Fredye Flintoff could also make the ball swing unconventionally.
Brett Lee? He was a fine bowler. I would have him as my first bowler pick in the 11 of nicest cricketers to have played the game!. And I don't think Brett really reversed it much though he was a very fine bowler. Pace and his attitude on and off the field were the best thing about his bowling and playing bbin general.

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Re: Is Dale Steyn really reverse swinging it?

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