Scotland - Political ramifications of YES win ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 8:21 am

If momentum is anything to go by..Next week we'll see a Political earthquake...

What do you think happens for the British govt in the next few weeks should Scotland go...Personally can't see Cammy staying and can't see how it can wait till May for an election !!!

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:37 am

Now, now, Truss, you are only allowed to start political threads if you are a moderator.

And if you question why that is, you get banned! #truestory

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Post by kingraf on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:40 am

LDs thread wasn't political. More irritated at the situation of the world
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 11:45 am

Tories take a majority with Scotland out the picture, so doubt there'll be a massive upheavel with the PM, especially as the Better Together has been led by a Labour minister and all three parties have presented a united front from Westminster.

This is UK politics, not the US, Trussy.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:06 pm

Think it will be a bigger deal than you think Toppy...

He's done sack all and many right wingers care about the Union..

More to this than GE 2015

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:22 pm

Labour led the campaign, no? It's their failing just as much if not more so, which is something DC can cling onto.

Plus, pro-Union or not, what they're interested in is power - Scottish independence helps that.

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Post by Scrumpy on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:42 pm

The simple way to judge this whole debat is by looking at the people who are waving Yes and No banners,

The 'Yes' people look like they have come from a football match and the 'No' people look like they have come from Waterstones!

Its as simple as that. Very Happy
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:45 pm

Exactly, I feel really sorry for my intelligent Scottish friends as they risk the nuckle-draggers dragging their country into a mess they'll never get out of.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:56 pm

kingraf wrote:LDs thread wasn't political. More irritated at the situation of the world

Oh sorry, King, I was not referring to that thread, I was referring to this one:

http://www.606v2.com/t55268-606v2-rugby-fans-scottish-independence-thread

I asked why it were allowed in the "alert moderator thread" and then I were banned, and the thread removed!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 12:57 pm

The reason Cammy cancelled PMQs is because at least two ministers have threatened to resign If Scotland goes...He's behind in the polls and a loss will play into the suggestion he's a loser that couldn't win against dead duck Brown....and now is the guy that lost Scotland....

Forget Darling...Cameron's administration loses Scotland...If they vote no.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:11 pm

He cancelled PMQs so all party leaders could get their backsides up to Scotland to try save this mess. Nice spin though.

Europe is a major issue for many Tory MPs, and protecting the City, and DC has just got his guy into the top finance job in Europe to protect UK interests. That's a big win.

Love 'forget Darling', ergo, I love Labour and hate Tory so please forget Labour involvement and make sure when it goes wrong the Tories get all the blame laughing

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:17 pm

Mate ...When Cammie goes soon after Yes wins....I'm going to keep bumping this thread..

If yes wins...50/50...

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Post by Scrumpy on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:21 pm

I find it hard so many have been sucked in by Salmond, unless of course the English media have edited him to look like a xenophobic bitter Scot?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:27 pm

Two things...The line "Never be governed by the Tories again" is a great one in a left wing Country and of course the romantic notion of being independent.

Salmond is also a great politician of his era.

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Post by Scrumpy on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:34 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Salmond is also a great politician of his era.

When you look at the other showers of **** around that is no great achievement!
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:42 pm

You've got a point..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 1:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Two things...The line "Never be governed by the Tories again" is a great one in a left wing Country and of course the romantic notion of being independent.

Salmond is also a great politician of his era.
Using that rationale and the "We never get the Government we voted for!" argument is puerile but people seem to be buying it. Amazing. I haven't had the Government I voted for since I don't know when and, guess what? Many in an indy Scotland won't get the Government they voted for either.
The light that the 'yes' camp claim is at the end of this tunnel is simply an express train coming the other way.
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Post by Scrumpy on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:01 pm

Me too, I've never had a government I've voted for.

I demand a vote that the South West breaks away from the rest of the UK!


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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:01 pm

Talking of the political ramifications, here's a thought:

The 'Yes' camp win and Scotland goes independent.
Next rUK general election won on a landslide by Tories (due to loss of Scottish Labour and SNP MPs).
Salmond et al have to negotiate their currency issues with Osbourne (Laugh good luck with that)
Salmond persists with a currency union and rUK grant it but Scots have to negotiate conditions in the event of catastrophe with either Osbourne or another Tory chancellor that'll be likely for the foreseeable future.
Well done Alex. Congratulations.

The only thing I can see stopping the Tories being in for the foreseeable future (assuming a 'yes' on Sept 18) is Labour get some traction out of "You're not seriously going to vote for the party that lost Scotland from the Union are you?".
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:06 pm

Salmond has run rings round Westminster, that's for sure. He either gets independence, or he gets devo-max by the back door, which is what he always wanted.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:08 pm

Scrumpy wrote:Me too, I've never had a government I've voted for.

I demand a vote that the South West breaks away from the rest of the UK!

I'll back that if I can get a vote for London to breakaway from rUK!!

Monaco of the north, here we come......

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Post by kingraf on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:12 pm

I wonder how much Scottish Government bonds will be worth with a "YES" vote...
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:14 pm

What have we here?

Conservatives are fighting for resources - North Seas ones and terrestrial territory.

Labour are fighting for themselves - both their relevance and their votes.  They care little about the issue of Scottish independence other than that the realisation of Independence will weaken their footstep in England.  England and English politics are Labour's main concern.

Liberals are fighting to be heard.  If they say nothing, people won't be able to find them and they'll get lost in the big room of voter apathy with no key to get out.  So shout guys!  Say something.  It doesn't matter if it's Yes or No...it's just the sound itself that might keep you from drowning.

Salmond seems to be fighting for Scotland....which is a very interesting - if strange! - angle in a referendum on Scottish Independence Wink


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Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:16 pm

kingraf wrote:I wonder how much Scottish Government bonds will be worth with a "YES" vote...

The same as Irish ones of recent years?  That is to say - worthless but made their holders an oceanful of easy money nonetheless Wink


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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:17 pm

kingraf wrote:I wonder how much Scottish Government bonds will be worth with a "YES" vote...
Junk I would guess?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:What have we here?

Conservatives are fighting for resources - North Seas ones and terrestrial territory.

Labour are fighting for themselves - both their relevance and their votes.  They care little about the issue of Scottish independence other than that the realisation of Independence will weaken their footstep in England.  England and English politics are Labour's main concern.

Liberals are fighting to be heard.  If they say nothing, people won't be able to find them and they'll get lost in the big room of voter apathy with no key to get out.  So shout guys!  Say something.  It doesn't matter if it's Yes or No...it's just the sound itself that might keep you from drowning.

Salmond seems to be fighting for Scotland....which is a very interesting - if strange! - angle in a referendum on Scottish Independence Wink
What an interesting, if utterly fantastical, spin you put on their individual motives. Even if you're right, Salmond is and always has been, out for himself. He's no better or worse than the Westminster crowd and he still hasn't been called out about the nonsensical claims he's making or has made in the past.
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:32 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:What have we here?

Conservatives are fighting for resources - North Seas ones and terrestrial territory.

Labour are fighting for themselves - both their relevance and their votes.  They care little about the issue of Scottish independence other than that the realisation of Independence will weaken their footstep in England.  England and English politics are Labour's main concern.

Liberals are fighting to be heard.  If they say nothing, people won't be able to find them and they'll get lost in the big room of voter apathy with no key to get out.  So shout guys!  Say something.  It doesn't matter if it's Yes or No...it's just the sound itself that might keep you from drowning.

Salmond seems to be fighting for Scotland....which is a very interesting - if strange! - angle in a referendum on Scottish Independence Wink
What an interesting, if utterly fantastical, spin you put on their individual motives. Even if you're right, Salmond is and always has been, out for himself. He's no better or worse than the Westminster crowd and he still hasn't been called out about the nonsensical claims he's making or has made in the past.

It's as true a reading of motives as any I've heard on TV these last few months.  I stand by the overall reading I bring to my judgement of what the inducements are for all sides.

Salmond, like him or loath him, is Scottish and he believes Scottish people can run their own affairs - totally - without the aid of know-it-best men in London; and he ain't all that young anymore and he appreciates he'll die in time.  
So......... his is the purest thought in the circus: "Scotland for the Scottish, even after I'm gone." The others can't say that - not Labour, not the Liberals, not the Conservatives and not UKIP Wink

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Post by Derbymanc on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:36 pm

Can someone clear up for me if it's correct that Scotland cost more to England than they actually put in ???

In my opinion Salmond is entirely out for himself and trying to get himself in the History books. If it was purely for the good of Scotland then surely he'd have quite a few Plan B's for all the probelms that could (and probably will) crop up. Plus the purile 'if you don't let us have the pound we won't honour our portion of the debt' was one of the ridiculous things i've heard. Darling should have jumped on that and made a massive point in how is that going to persuade ANYONE to lend them money, especially with the current monetary issues in the world.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:...So......... his is the purest thought in the circus: "Scotland for the Scottish, even after I'm gone." The others can't say that - not Labour, not the Liberals, not the Conservatives and not UKIP Wink
An interesting point and one that may well carry the vote although I don't credit, for one second, that Salmond has his motives organised that way. Shame, but there we go.
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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:46 pm

I still got a bad feeling it is going to be a marginal 'No' victory. Which which be a total disaster for Scotland to get so close and fall at the final hurdle while losing to a shambolic 'Bitter Together' campaign. Plus it's pretty obvious the suits down at Westminster are never going to give them any of the extra powers promised. Be back to square one then

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:47 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Can someone clear up for me if it's correct that Scotland cost more to England than they actually put in ???...
Who knows? No-one seems to be able to be able to point to proven numbers which aren't disputed by one side or the other. Each side seems to be able to find any number of rent-a-quote 'experts' to either quote something in their favour or to dispute something the opposition says. How any, normal voter is meant to make a properly informed decision is beyond me. Fortunately, I don't have a vote in this!
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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:50 pm

Despite not being a Labour voter I also find it rather embarrassing that the Welsh First Minister is up there campaigning for a 'No' vote. How the hell can a man in charge (and on the best wage) of a devolved assembly be anti-devolution???

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:52 pm

Derbymanc wrote:Can someone clear up for me if it's correct that Scotland cost more to England than they actually put in ???

In my opinion Salmond is entirely out for himself and trying to get himself in the History books. If it was purely for the good of Scotland then surely he'd have quite a few Plan B's for all the probelms that could (and probably will) crop up. Plus the purile 'if you don't let us have the pound we won't honour our portion of the debt' was one of the ridiculous things i've heard. Darling should have jumped on that and made a massive point in how is that going to persuade ANYONE to lend them money, especially with the current monetary issues in the world.

The History Books created the Union in the first place...and not always by a free and democratic vote on the issues at hand as centuries of war will highlight.  

So, the Empire, and those famous souls who constructed it, knew all about history books and their places in them.  I think the world should rejoice that a distinct people (and distinct is what they are or there would be no need for the term 'Scotland' or 'Scottish' in the first place) choose the path of a free and democratic vote referendum to decide their own fate, a decision everyone will honour in the aftermath.  

That's the way to do it - that's the way it should always have been, that's the way it should always be - and rather than many people looking for constant negatives, simply look at the big issue at hand ( a people deciding on Independent Nationhood) and look at how they are going about it and simply take a bow everyone - English and Scottish.  The referendum is a positive expression of things done right in a very negative world right now where things are done altogether wrongly (Palestine/Syria/Iraq/Ukraine etc).

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:54 pm

Problem for yes is that the voting age of their supporters is much younger on average....

Older people are more likely to vote !!

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:56 pm

Steffan wrote:I still got a bad feeling it is going to be a marginal 'No' victory. Which which be a total disaster for Scotland to get so close and fall at the final hurdle while losing to a shambolic 'Bitter Together' campaign. Plus it's pretty obvious the suits down at Westminster are never going to give them any of the extra powers promised. Be back to square one then
And therein lies the problem. The 'yes' side simply won't believe anything anyone says unless it chimes with their own view. Hopefully there are enough 'undecideds' who go for the Union side to carry it. I agree though that the worst thing will be a close 'no' as it won't shut the argument down for very long and we'll have the same cobblers all over again before we know it.

You'll have "Governments we didn't vote for!" whether independent, or not. Everyone does. Why is this even being mentioned as a +ve for independence??
Why does no-one question Salmond on his support for Thatcher in '79 which enabled her to get in?
Why will no-one counter his absurd claims about NHS Scotland?
Why on Earth do the 'yes' side persist in the insistence that rUK would agree to a genuine currency union?
Why does no-one call out Salmond over his EU claims?
Why does everyone, amazingly, assume Salmond and the SNP are somehow unique and honourable politicians who keep all their promises? For example, see: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_04_11_labourdoc.pdf

Etc, etc, etc.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 2:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:...That's the way to do it - that's the way it should always have been, that's the way it should always be - and rather than many people looking for constant negatives, simply look at the big issue at hand ( a people deciding on Independent Nationhood) and look at how they are going about it and simply take a bow everyone - English and Scottish.  The referendum is a positive expression of things done right in a very negative world right now where things are done altogether wrongly (Palestine/Syria/Iraq/Ukraine etc).
No argument from me on this point, at least.
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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:04 pm

Devo-Max is a waste of time as well. Kinda like a dog wanting leave his master who beats him, so then the master says 'If I give you more bones can I still be your master?'

It's a half-arsed attempt to keep Scotland and the fact they are doing it with just over a week to go is not only insulting for the people of Scotland but an embarrassment to the three leaders in Westminster to stink of such desperation

There is a reason Devo-Max isn't on the ballot paper and whatever the result Salmond has shown up Cameron, Miliband, Clegg and the rest of Westminster politics for the joke that it is

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:09 pm

Steffan wrote:Devo-Max is a waste of time as well. Kinda like a dog wanting leave his master who beats him, so then the master says 'If I give you more bones can I still be your master?'

It's a half-arsed attempt to keep Scotland and the fact they are doing it with just over a week to go is not only insulting for the people of Scotland but an embarrassment to the three leaders in Westminster to stink of such desperation

There is a reason Devo-Max isn't on the ballot paper and whatever the result Salmond has shown up Cameron, Miliband, Clegg and the rest of Westminster politics for the joke that it is
Devo-Max isn't there because Westminster wouldn't agree to what was asked. Which is why the latest offer 'isn't as good' as Devo-Max. Amazing. I think the ballot question is the only one that could have been there - shame we're almost to the vote and you (presumably) and others like you can't get a straight, believable answer from Salmond. Good luck.
Any answers to my points, above?
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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:16 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Devo-Max isn't there because Westminster wouldn't agree to what was asked. Which is why the latest offer 'isn't as good' as Devo-Max. Amazing. I think the ballot question is the only one that could have been there - shame we're almost to the vote and you (presumably) and others like you can't get a straight, believable answer from Salmond. Good luck.
Any answers to my points, above?
I'm Welsh so makes no difference to me whatever the result. Wales will still be left to be an economic blackhole by Westminster with or without Scotland in the Union. But as someone who understands what it's like to live in a place where Johnny Poshboy in London couldn't care less I totally understand why Scotland (who clearly have way more to offer as a nation than us) want to take full control of their own affairs and I wish them all the best with it and hope they vote a big fat YES

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:21 pm

"Why do you want Independence?" seems to be the cry of some.  As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"

I'd ask a question of the questioners.  And seek a Genuine Answer:  "Why do you lot want us(Scottish)?  You don't need us, you run things better, you laugh at us, you have all the money, all the people, all the brains, all the UK kudos (ie, foreigners identifying the UK as somehow something that happens to mostly English people in England Wink )  Why the hell do you lot want us?  What's in it for you?  And please - no emotion - no 'because we love yous' Wink"  That's what I'd ask if I was Scottish.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:22 pm

Steffan wrote:I'm Welsh so makes no difference to me whatever the result. Wales will still be left to be an economic blackhole by Westminster with or without Scotland in the Union. But as someone who understands what it's like to live in a place where Johnny Poshboy in London couldn't care less I totally understand why Scotland (who clearly have way more to offer as a nation than us) want to take full control of their own affairs and I wish them all the best with it and hope they vote a big fat YES
Fair enough!
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:"Why do you want Independence?" seems to be the cry of some.  As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"

I'd ask a question of the questioners.  And seek a Genuine Answer:  "Why do you lot want us(Scottish)?  You don't need us, you run things better, you laugh at us, you have all the money, all the people, all the brains, all the UK kudos (ie, foreigners identifying the UK as somehow something that happens to mostly English people in England Wink )  Why the hell do you lot want us?  What's in it for you?  And please - no emotion - no 'because we love yous' Wink"  That's what I'd ask if I was Scottish.
Ooo! That would be clever - pity no-one has come up with that one yet. Who knows? In no particular order: oil, tourism, whisky, engineering, current and historical contribution to what's generally considered an excellent armed forces, advantages to all from economies of scale, diversities of opinion etc.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:30 pm

SecretFly wrote:...As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"...
Incidentally, I don't know that anyone has said none of the above will work. Just that the way they'll have to be financed to achieve Salmond's Utopian ideals is not commensurate with the reality. I think that's fair comment to make.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:38 pm

You seem a bit bitter....Secret....

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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:41 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You seem a bit bitter Secret....
Truss you have changed your tune by the way pretty quick. Only the other day you acted like Scottish independence was dead in the water after the Salmond v Darling debate. Now you see it as possibly a foregone conclusion...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:45 pm

Just going by the polls....

Me.. I'd want independence If I was young and idealist..

Just worry about the Scottish economy......Don't want to see good people struggling..

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Post by Steffan on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:48 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't want to see good people struggling..
Never visit the south Wales valleys then...

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Post by Brys on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 3:52 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"...
Incidentally, I don't know that anyone has said none of the above will work. Just that the way they'll have to be financed to achieve Salmond's Utopian ideals is not commensurate with the reality. I think that's fair comment to make.

Salmond or Sturgeon have never actually said there's gonna be a Utopian Scotland coming out of this vote if things go Yes, not sure where this notion has come from. Sturgeon just recently said that there will be ups and downs along the way but what they want is for Scotland to be the one deciding on these issues and not a Westminster government is all. This is pretty much the same sentiment that come from most of the Yes voices even if they do support independence but not SNP policies as a whole.

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Post by Scrumpy on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 4:08 pm

How many Euros do you get to the £ these days?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 10 Sep 2014, 4:09 pm

Steffan wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't want to see good people struggling..
Never visit the south Wales valleys then...

I went for a weekend in Llandudno ( ch spelling) when I was dating Jo..

Is that the South ??.. Enjoyed it..

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