We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 20 Sep 2014, 2:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

Yeah that definitely has a point and relevance. It shows how ludicrous a comment that is.

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:18 pm

Buzzing for Newcastle away next season.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 10:30 pm

Said last week those Cisse goals were the worst thing that could've happened for Toon, so many parallels to Hughton and us last season...
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 29 Sep 2014, 11:22 pm

compelling and rich wrote:robinho wasnt a Major flop?!! Laugh Laugh

club record signing at the time, had a ok first half a season at best, then went totally missing for the rest of his time at the club, well worth 33 mil that!!. even the city fans admit he was a bit cack.

Always thought he got harshly labelled cos he was Brazilian, thus must be a lazy party boy. There was a season where he was their best player by a distance

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Post by compelling and rich on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 2:29 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
compelling and rich wrote:robinho wasnt a Major flop?!! Laugh Laugh

club record signing at the time, had a ok first half a season at best, then went totally missing for the rest of his time at the club, well worth 33 mil that!!. even the city fans admit he was a bit cack.

Always thought he got harshly labelled cos he was Brazilian, thus must be a lazy party boy. There was a season where he was their best player by a distance

nope believe it or not stephen ireland was there best player that season, even voted for by the city fans. scored nearly as many as robinho aswell

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 3:33 pm

Opinions eh. Doesnt sound so horrendously like a flop though.

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Post by Stella on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 3:41 pm

For £30m he was a flop. very good for a few games then that was it.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 30 Sep 2014, 5:10 pm

Doesnt have to be one or the other, not sure why people do that. I think he was worth the risk, alright as a signing and quite important in where they went for their image.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 5:58 pm

The Sport Bible has confirmed that Arsenal have had 888 injuries since the 2002 season, this just backs up SoCals argument from last season that they struggle with injuries and that's why they don't win the league.

Of course it failed to mention that Diaby has suffered 90% of those injuries.
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Post by Stella on Wed 01 Oct 2014, 6:49 pm

18 years for Wenger. The first 9 were astonishing, the last 9, not so. Anyway, a fine achievement.
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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:11 pm

I see the Rooney Rule talk is rearing its head again.

It completely misses the point
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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:39 pm

I get the feeling Paul Ince thinks he's entitled to a job because he's black.
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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:52 pm

Bit harsh that.

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Post by Stella on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:52 pm

The Special Juan wrote:I get the feeling Paul Ince thinks he's entitled to a job because he's black.

I get that feeling to. He might get one, if he removes his chip.

Imagine the Rooney rule coming in. After a few months, they'll be no black managers to even interview.
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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:57 pm

I didn't have a clue what you lot where on about.

Its basically just positive discrimination. Fair enough- other sectors of business/industry and entertainment have to abide by it.


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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:58 pm

How many of them recruit like football teams do?


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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 12:59 pm

all of them.

this isn't about players or actors playing a specific part of a footballer that has a certain ability.

hell they arnt even saying you have to employ a black guy- they are just saying you have to interview one!!

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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:04 pm

Football managers tend to be headhunted.

I don't think the recruitment process will allow the Rooney rule to be implemented.

E.g. United last couple of years, wanted moyes then lvg - what do you do? Hold false interviews and invite Paul ince to them?

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Post by Stella on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:05 pm

Ironic that the man who calls himself the guvnor has problems being one.
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Post by Fernando on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:07 pm

The problem is that if the leagues have to 20 or so managers.

No side is going to agree plus if you go up to a team and go you have to have a black manager their reply is going to be go tell another team that instead.

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Post by The Special Juan on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:10 pm

He said something the other day that really riled me.
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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:13 pm

There are many problems - one is the current recruitment structure, it is shrouded in mystery. The big clubs headhunt managers, the smaller ones seem to have a shortlist produced by the chairman of they don't headhunt. Does any team ever invite open applications?

Is there really a shortage of black managers/coaches? What is the ratio of ethnic minorities in the professional game compared to amateur and that hold professional qualifications.


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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:23 pm

Ent wrote:Football managers tend to be headhunted.

I don't think the recruitment process will allow the Rooney rule to be implemented.

E.g. United last couple of years, wanted moyes then lvg - what do you do? Hold false interviews and invite Paul ince to them?

yep just like any CEO position , TV presenter position,high level managerial role or tender.

We do 20 tenders a month and we know a certain percentage of them are already agreed (sometimes in our favour)- but the government bodies, electrical contractors need 3 or they are breaking the law. The same thing works in recruitment for certain positions.

Even though we all know the truth- Some of the time most people there are just there to full-fill a quota.

In many cases of course that isn't the case - and they will consider all candidates.. Say the black man smashed the interview- and the board thought- hang on! why the fieck not.

It could also iron out the issues we have with the same faces over and over again- it may help young white managers as well.

Everyone knows that pulis is waiting about till November and will take the job at the bottom club. . Everyone knew man u would employ the biggest possible candidate for the job- but lets be honest he looks sh!!t(pardon my french)

experience sometimes counts for nothing.

I would love to see more British managers get into the game- this could seriously help that out.


Last edited by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:26 pm

I don't see how it is going to help anyone.

Come along to a fake interview as a token candidate for a job we weren't planning on interviewing for.

Sounds amazing.

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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:28 pm

You are not looking at the bigger picture- You can only see one paranoid vision. If black players know they will be guaranteed interviews many more after retiring from playing will get there badges, and so on and so on. You may not see the effect straight away- but in 10 years- you could.

do not think PL- think about the other 80 odd clubs in the football league.. many of them will only go on an interview process.

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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:32 pm

I'm seeing reality.

Perhaps they should start with actually interviewing candidates and having a proper recruitment process before they try and establish systems to effect who gets an interview.

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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:34 pm

No you are not. Figures back it up in the NFL and other industries. That's the reality. Do some research.


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Post by mystiroakey on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:38 pm

On to my 10 year point. And from a respected source.

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/1822988-the-rooney-rule-10-years-later-its-worked-usually-and-we-still-need-it

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 1:51 pm

Ent wrote:Football managers tend to be headhunted.

I don't think the recruitment process will allow the Rooney rule to be implemented.

E.g. United last couple of years, wanted moyes then lvg - what do you do? Hold false interviews and invite Paul ince to them?
Exactly.

Making minority managers candidates is pointless, making them the best candidate is what is required.

The Rooney Rule does nothing for that.
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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 2:05 pm

Bleacher report - really?

NFL with it's college system does not mirror the structure of football in any shape or form, their recruitment process also differs as does the coaching structure with many high profile positions within one franchise.

The first step is to actually find out how clubs recruit, Manchester United openly admitted to having no process when Moyes was recruited and that is the biggest club in the country and one of the biggest in the world.

There is no point in making minority candidates compulsory if the recruitment system makes them a token gesture in a false process - that does harm rather than good.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 2:43 pm

Positive discrimination needs to be defeated.

Absolutely abhorrent that we are moving back to the ways of discrimination, which has no place in decent society.

And of course, while the Rooney Rule will begin as compulsory interviews for some people based on a ludicrous concept such as skin colour, that will, in good time, undoubtedly lead to quota positions and such like.

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 2:44 pm

You'll never get a quota for football managers.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 2:51 pm

No probably not for managers, I agree, but for coaches/physios/analysts I would not be so sure.

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 3:02 pm

Good luck telling Manchester United they have to sack Ryan Giggs because of a quota. Won't happen.

Look at making minority candidates the best candidates rather than forcing interviews upon teams. I agree the lack of them is an issue, but are there any outstanding candidates that are being shunned?
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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 3:05 pm

And in the current climate where managers and staff are punted frequently, having someone you were forced to appoint is hardly going to improve job security
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Post by Lowlandbrit on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 3:15 pm

Ent wrote:Football managers tend to be headhunted.

I don't think the recruitment process will allow the Rooney rule to be implemented.

E.g. United last couple of years, wanted moyes then lvg - what do you do? Hold false interviews and invite Paul ince to them?
Which is the real problem; any time a manager is sacked, clubs already have someone lined up either from within or one of the familiar names from outside, and everybody else struggles to break in to the system. As I understand it, that was the point of the Rooney rule; not that some team would be wowed and hire someone on the spot, but that it would get their foot in the door to be considered for other jobs.
Considering the average amount of time managers stay employed these days, would it really be so terrible to force clubs to come up with shortlists?

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 3:59 pm

The clubs themselves should be able to recruit whoever the hell they like however they like, we wanted Moyes and LVG so we went about bringing them in, why should they have to interview people they have no interest in?

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Post by PaulHv2 on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:12 pm

It's not about quota, it's about a belief that currently black players aren't given the chance in coaching in management and nothing has been done to dispel this belief. If the Rooney Rule encouraged more black players to go through their coaching badges then great, as Oakey said it won't happen straight away but in ten years we would certainly see the benefit.
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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:20 pm

If it does great Hampo. The prospect of a token interview to satisfy a rule with an owner who already has a target in mind wouldn't really be the deciding factor for me.

The FA funding these licenses would be a better start, aren't ours massively more expensive than on the continent? I can't imagine the FA is so hard up for cash
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Post by compelling and rich on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:21 pm

positive discrimination is still discrimination, the best people for the job should be interviewed no matter what race/nationality they are

if a club has a shortlist of ten managers with ten brilliant candidates, they would have to drop one for someone who isn't as qualified purely because the other ten candidates aren't a certain race

american football (especially in the collegiate system) is full of qualified educated black coaches/players. you cant just throw a system from a different country from a totally different sport, makes no sense

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Post by Fernando on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:22 pm

Black Managers = Kids without experience looking for jobs.

No one in their right mind is going to hire them if can choose more suitable candidate. Soon as the FA try and inforce it they will be sued senseless cos clubs will go why do we have to have a black manager and Arsenal/Chelsea/United don't.

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:25 pm

The NFL is also a lot more regimented and publicised with regards to coach hirings etc.

But its led to guys like Leslie Frazier who was a talented coordinator, but not really HC material getting multiple interviews and never getting close to a job (until the HC of the team he worked for got fired and he took over as interim). He then washed out of that job 3 years later because the concerns he wasn't HC material proved correct.

Owners are gonna hire the best candidate, regardless of colour
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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:26 pm

The path is there also. Paul Ince went from league 1 to the PL. Hughton arguably got too many chances at Norwich.
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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:35 pm

People can believe what they want.

When mentioning the Rooney rule people should check out how long these nfl guys spend coaching in an elite setting in various roles before they get one of these top coaching roles.

The usa had elite level minority coaches within the college system and within the nfl teams not being interviewed for top jobs - that is why the rule worked for them.

Football isn't the same it won't work.

There is a lack of elite coaches in England full stop, never mind minority ones.

As for it improving aspirations and motivation etc, a load of nonsense - wenger, Rodgers, Mourinho hold 3 of the biggest jobs in world football (never mind just the pl) and have no professional playing career between them.

This is a non issue, an irrelevance, targeting a problem that has not been objectively quantified at the wrong point.

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Post by Lowlandbrit on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:46 pm

compelling and rich wrote:american football (especially in the collegiate system) is full of qualified educated black coaches/players. you cant just throw a system from a different country from a totally different sport, makes no sense
Actually college head coaches are overwhelmingly white, and there are people calling for a similar rule there.

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Post by GSC on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 4:50 pm

I'd argue that that is at least partly down to the fact that a lot of college football is based in the south, where there is a genuine issue of discrimination in general. David Shaw would have no shortage of NFL suitors if he wished.
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Post by Duty281 on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 5:04 pm

I do not think the lack of coaches/managers with a dark skin colour is an issue because, quite simply, skin colour is irrelevant to the merit and abilities of a person.

If there is evidence of discrimination, then by all means tackle it with sanctions and penalties, but I have not seen or heard of any such incidents.

Even if there were any such evidence, the key underlying point is that you can never defeat discrimination by discriminating. It is ludicrous, ridiculous and patronising.

Let us say that, in twenty years, the Premier League had ten black managers and ten white managers as a result of this Rooney Rule and more positive discrimination. How does that make the Premier League any better? How does this make football better?

Answer: it does not.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 5:05 pm

GSC wrote:The path is there also. Paul Ince went from league 1 to the PL. Hughton arguably got too many chances at Norwich.
Wayyy too many chances lol

Bringing in the rule is as you say nothing but a token gesture. Owners/chairman will recruit who they think is the best candidate, whether black or white. And as has been said there are no decent black managers about anyways that's the issue
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Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 5:08 pm

I think there is an issue with expectation too, players seem to think they should walk into a management job shortly after they retire if they want one - with little to no coaching experience.

Just flicked through some nfl teams there in every one of the 10 I looked at their head coach had at least 20 years coaching experience before they got a head coach job.

Be careful what you wish for.

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Post by PaulHv2 on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 5:09 pm

Duty281 wrote:I do not think the lack of coaches/managers with a dark skin colour is an issue because, quite simply, skin colour is irrelevant to the merit and abilities of a person.

If there is evidence of discrimination, then by all means tackle it with sanctions and penalties, but I have not seen or heard of any such incidents.

Even if there were any such evidence, the key underlying point is that you can never defeat discrimination by discriminating. It is ludicrous, ridiculous and patronising.

Let us say that, in twenty years, the Premier League had ten black managers and ten white managers as a result of this Rooney Rule and more positive discrimination. How does that make the Premier League any better? How does this make football better?

Answer: it does not.

The Rooney Rule does not force you to hire a black manager or member of staff, all it says is that at least one black manager has to be interviewed. This is not an instant fix however in ten/twenty years it would make a difference. That and making the cost of coaching badges a lot cheaper.
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We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread  - Page 11 Empty Re: We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread

Post by Ent on Fri 03 Oct 2014, 5:10 pm

Why would it make a difference when we have no system to implement it in to?

People will end up going to interviews where the employer has no intention of employing them as a token gesture, an after thought- it will make things worse.

Anyway the Rooney rule is and has been criticised 10 years on in the USA for many reasons others have outlined.

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We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread  - Page 11 Empty Re: We Go Again! The 2014/15 Premier League Thread

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