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George Groves - Delusions of Grandeur ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 7:57 am

"Come on Carl let's do Froch-Groves 3 If we can find a Stadium BIG enough !!

Mate you've lost twice to this guy.....While a third fight will be interesting....It's hardly a superfight !!....The first fight sold the second.....

Get real....

Personally I'd rather watch Froch - Degale who I think beats Froch...I'd even prefer Chavez....

Don't really want Groves or Kessler 3...Though I would watch..

Where has the nerdish Groves gone we all know and love ???

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:15 am

I don’t blame Groves for trying to get a third fight against Carl, though I think he’s piddling in the wind as Froch just isn’t even going to consider it given the 2-0 score line and the fact that he has, by his own admission, precious little time left in the sport to try and break new ground. Groves is a very ambitious guy and he likes the limelight. But I agree, if he thinks a third instalment is going to be anywhere near as big or eagerly-anticipated as the Wembley show then he’s living in a fantasy world. He probably knows that in his heart of hearts, I suspect, but just wants to say anything he can to get Froch’s attention and thinks that if he can tap in on Froch’s own need for love and adulation from the public which he craves then he might be able to talk him round by any means necessary.

The problem for Groves is that the way the two fights have ended have convinced a lot of people that he could never beat Froch no matter what. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I can see why people have reached that conclusion. Also, for a lot of people Groves pooped his pot full with his talk before the rematch which ultimately looks hollow and daft in light of him getting beaten – if he got a third shot at Carl it would feel like he’s just got it by running his mouth more than anything else.

The only possible way he could get a third Froch fight would be if Sauerland could push for the WBC title fight in double quick time and get Groves in with Dirrell in the next three or four months. If Groves could win that, then the idea of Groves-Froch III being a unification bout might (at a long shot) entice Froch. But I think Froch is so adamant that all business with Groves has been settled that it might even take something like Groves also beating Abraham for his trinket (to make it, according to Sky, an undisputed championship match as we know Ward doesn’t exist) to even get him considering it.

All in all, if Froch is going to fight a Brit next it should be Degale. He might not be as highly rated as Groves just yet, but he’s earned his chance, has waited a while for it and it’s a fresh new challenge against a very different style for Carl which could be pretty interesting. Groves should forget about a third fight (Froch will probably be retired by the time he gets his own world belt) and realise that he can still have a good career in his own right without Carl.
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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:23 am

Old ground. Floyd might as well fight Maidana again. It is 2-0 and if they fight another 10 times the result will remain the same (obviously on about a peak Froch). Groves tires and has a weak chin at the highest level.

Groves is good when he is slapping somebody that doesn't fire back. Froch vs Degale is interesting because I think he would be a lot harder to stop and Degale will try and out box Froch from distance and wont be as careless. At this stage in his career I think Froch and Degale is a toss up.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:25 am

Bit hard on Groves there Mate..

But agree with 2-0 element..

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:28 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Bit hard on Groves there Mate..

But agree with 2-0 element..

Talented fighter on the attack but I think he struggles with pressure and somebody that can dig. Froch is all wrong for Groves. Groves can outbox Froch for spells using his speed and footwork but Froch will always come on strong and knock him out late.

I love to watch Froch fight but I am more convinced than ever that Calzaghe would outbox him pretty easily imo.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:38 am

How can you say Froch is all wrong for Groves...

Consensus had Groves miles ahead in the first and level pegging in the 2nd.

Evenly matched...For me

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:40 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How can you say Froch is all wrong for Groves...

Consensus had Groves miles ahead in the first and level pegging in the 2nd.

Evenly matched...For me

Because of the end result. Granted Groves will always have an early lead but I really believe Froch always stops Groves late. Just an opinion mate but Groves had his chance to beat Froch in the first fight and still couldn't get the job done. I really believe the end result would be the same if they fought a 3rd time.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:46 am

The first fight was controversially stopped.....and I didn't see Groves slowing down in the second...He made a mistake and paid for it...

But I get your point and your opinion is a valid one...Just don't agree.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:46 am

Froch's chin is his difference maker, what sets him apart and what has made him successful. And GG will always struggle with him for that reason, Froch can afford to go gun-ho and find that peach of a punch eventually, like he did in both Taylor and GG2 fights.

Think GG is talking out his backside a bit re a third fight, for all the reasons Chris more eloquently articulates above. Still, he's a boxer and it's to be expected, he's not half as crass as some others still.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:49 am

I didn't think he went gung ho......Taylor and Groves just don't know when to spoil..

He was awful and lucky against Taylor..

But his chin is his greatest asset for sure..

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:57 am

Was Taylor still ahead on the scorecards going into the 12th?

From memory I gave all the first half of the fight to him, but remember him waning and Froch racking up rounds towards the end. In an old school 15 rounder Froch would've taken a UD without the stoppage, no doubt.

Think Groves tried to spoil in the first fight (after his initial reaction of fighting fire with fire) but the ref ballsed it up for him. In GG2 it was just a perfect punch that took him out, wasn't really a moment to feel the need to spoil.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:04 am

I agree with you...Just the gung ho bit... If anything Froch's problem is he isn't gung ho enough...

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:19 am

Groves got lucky in the 1st fight and was unable to replicate his form in the 2nd.

I want to see Groves beat Dirrel and then face Degale again in a fight I am certain he will loose........again.

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:20 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Groves got lucky in the 1st fight and was unable to replicate his form in the 2nd.

I want to see Groves beat Dirrel and then face Degale again in a fight I am certain he will loose........again.

good post

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:23 am

AdamT wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Groves got lucky in the 1st fight and was unable to replicate his form in the 2nd.

I want to see Groves beat Dirrel and then face Degale again in a fight I am certain he will loose........again.

good post

Sarcasim?

I can't tell anymore.

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:25 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
AdamT wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Groves got lucky in the 1st fight and was unable to replicate his form in the 2nd.

I want to see Groves beat Dirrel and then face Degale again in a fight I am certain he will loose........again.

good post

Sarcasim?

I can't tell anymore.

Nope, agree with you.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:29 am

Groves throws a right hand in the first fight and gets lucky...

So why didn't Froch get lucky in the 2nd...After all Groves wasn't in trouble..


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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:30 am

How do you ever conclude GG got lucky in the 1st fight?

'lucky' is winning with a hail-mary punch when behind on the cards, not comprehensively out-boxing someone.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:33 am

Can't really see how Groves got lucky in the first fight. Lucky how? He inflicted more heavy punishment on Froch than anyone else, forged a big lead and then was on the wrong end of a very poor stoppage. If anyone got the rub of the green that night it was Froch, what with a lot of his fouls going unpunished and the soft stoppage.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:43 am

88Chris05 wrote:Can't really see how Groves got lucky in the first fight. Lucky how? He inflicted more heavy punishment on Froch than anyone else, forged a big lead and then was on the wrong end of a very poor stoppage. If anyone got the rub of the green that night it was Froch, what with a lot of his fouls going unpunished and the soft stoppage.

He was lucky because he was on his way out. Froch had him hurt and Groves knew it. The stoppage helped Groves more because had the ref not jumped in as he did there would not have been the clamour for a rematch. Groves should be thanking that ref who made him a millionaire.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:43 am

88Chris05 wrote:Can't really see how Groves got lucky in the first fight. Lucky how? He inflicted more heavy punishment on Froch than anyone else, forged a big lead and then was on the wrong end of a very poor stoppage. If anyone got the rub of the green that night it was Froch, what with a lot of his fouls going unpunished and the soft stoppage.

He was lucky because he was on his way out. Froch had him hurt and Groves knew it. The stoppage helped Groves more because had the ref not jumped in as he did there would not have been the clamour for a rematch. Groves should be thanking that ref who made him a millionaire.

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 10:47 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:Can't really see how Groves got lucky in the first fight. Lucky how? He inflicted more heavy punishment on Froch than anyone else, forged a big lead and then was on the wrong end of a very poor stoppage. If anyone got the rub of the green that night it was Froch, what with a lot of his fouls going unpunished and the soft stoppage.

He was lucky because he was on his way out. Froch had him hurt and Groves knew it. The stoppage helped Groves more because had the ref not jumped in as he did there would not have been the clamour for a rematch. Groves should be thanking that ref who made him a millionaire.

Agree with you again. Froch was coming on strong and he would have finished Groves properly if the ref didn't intervene.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:07 am

If it was so blindingly obvious that Groves was on his way out then I doubt the clamour for the rematch would have been so great. Froch may well have gone on to finish the fight legitimately but that doesn't excuse a dreadful stoppage which didn't even give us the chance to find out. Fighters have come back from worse positions than Groves was in there, even against Froch; take a look at Kessler in the twelfth round of the O2 rematch. Tottering much closer to being taken out than Groves was and had taken more punishment in the fight beforehand, too, but he still roared back in that round and finished it on his feet.

Sorry, but arguing that Groves was somehow lucky that night seems crazy to me. Do you really think he feels greatful for Foster denying him the chance to go on and win a couple of world titles, which he had seemed on course to do before that ninth round, or that he'd prefer to have been stopped there and then rather than taking a few more shots and going out on his shield properly? There's a reason why just about everyone disagreed with the stoppage. It was an injustice to Groves and completely overshadowed an excellent fight.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:21 am

88Chris05 wrote:If it was so blindingly obvious that Groves was on his way out then I doubt the clamour for the rematch would have been so great. Froch may well have gone on to finish the fight legitimately but that doesn't excuse a dreadful stoppage which didn't even give us the chance to find out. Fighters have come back from worse positions than Groves was in there, even against Froch; take a look at Kessler in the twelfth round of the O2 rematch. Tottering much closer to being taken out than Groves was and had taken more punishment in the fight beforehand, too, but he still roared back in that round and finished it on his feet.

Sorry, but arguing that Groves was somehow lucky that night seems crazy to me. Do you really think he feels greatful for Foster denying him the chance to go on and win a couple of world titles, which he had seemed on course to do before that ninth round, or that he'd prefer to have been stopped there and then rather than taking a few more shots and going out on his shield properly? There's a reason why just about everyone disagreed with the stoppage. It was an injustice to Groves and completely overshadowed an excellent fight.

Of course everyone who saw that was upset by the stoppage but had Froch had the time to finish Groves off in that 9th round then Froch/Groves 2 most likely would not have happened and Groves may have got seriously hurt. Remember what Froch did to Bute when he had him hurt? Groves would have got it worse. Sure it was a great fight but I don't see Froch giving Groves a second bite at the cherry had he ended it then and there.

Are you trying to tell me that had Froch ended the fight in the 9th round that a rematch was a cert?

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:27 am

GG was never getting beat like Bute was though. Bute was blown out of there by a superior operator. GG was winning a boxing match and got stopped early. There's no way to know what would have happened if GG had been able to just take a knee.

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Post by AdamT Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:29 am

I'm in the minority but I am fully convinced that Froch was going to stop Groves first time. Groves boxed well and was winning the fight but Froch was coming on strong and would have stopped him. Like I say, it is only my opinion.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:31 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:GG was never getting beat like Bute was though. Bute was blown out of there by a superior operator.  GG was winning a boxing match and got stopped early.  There's no way to know what would have happened if GG had been able to just take a knee.

What fight was you watching?

Groves reaction was not that of a man who was ''still in the fight''. He was gone his eyes rolled back and he was heading (head first) to the canvas. He was not ready to perform a Corrale v Castilio comeback. Groves was hurt and gassed and should be thankful the ref jumped in when he did.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:38 am

I think there'd have still been a clamour for a rematch, though obviously as not as great a one as there was. But that's largely irrelevant. The decision to stop a fight has to be made in the moment - what's gone before and might come after has no bearing. Groves got stopped too early and, in the eys of most, wrongly. A lucrative rematch doesn't change that.
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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:54 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Was Taylor still ahead on the scorecards going into the 12th?

From memory I gave all the first half of the fight to him, but remember him waning and Froch racking up rounds towards the end.  In an old school 15 rounder Froch would've taken a UD without the stoppage, no doubt.

Think Groves tried to spoil in the first fight (after his initial reaction of fighting fire with fire) but the ref ballsed it up for him. In GG2 it was just a perfect punch that took him out, wasn't really a moment to feel the need to spoil.

On everyone's card except one blind judge and hammy, the forums biggest froch fan.

I think froch has a judge friendly style (or maybe it's just that its not friendly on my eye) as the scorecards seem to be favourable to him more often than not... Dirrell, ward, both groves fights, thought the pascal cards were a bit wide too.

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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 12:00 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:GG was never getting beat like Bute was though. Bute was blown out of there by a superior operator.  GG was winning a boxing match and got stopped early.  There's no way to know what would have happened if GG had been able to just take a knee.

What fight was you watching?

Groves reaction was not that of a man who was ''still in the fight''. He was gone his eyes rolled back and he was heading (head first) to the canvas. He was not ready to perform a Corrale v Castilio comeback. Groves was hurt and gassed and should be thankful the ref jumped in when he did.

Toppy was watching the same fight as the vast majority of people. You were watching the same one as the froch entourage, tunes... and Adam seemingly. Yours is the minority opinion onetwo.

He was in a damn site better shape than corrales.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 12:35 pm

This has been done to death already. Someone even posted a slow-mo replay. GG was looking no more 'out' than Froch in the first round and very few of Froch's punches were even landing clean.

If he'd taken a knee, he could've composed and hopefully survived the round. Nothing to say he couldn't have shut up shop from there on in and simply got screwed on the cards at the end.

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Post by Seanusarrilius Wed 01 Oct 2014, 2:49 pm

I think Groves has to be a little more realistic about his abilities, or at least about how best to use them. Fro me, he loses to Froch a third time (and I picked Groves in the rematch) and he also loses to Dirrell. He should be targeting Abraham, who is shot to pieces and just scraped by Paul Smith. Froch summed him up quite well (and he has fought him twice) when he said he CAN be a world champ, but needs to pick his path very carefully.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 4:17 pm

He should cherry pick is what you're saying....

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER Wed 01 Oct 2014, 4:19 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He should cherry pick is what you're saying....

Thats exactly what he is saying but Groves is in no position to cherry pick. All he can do right now is pick his nose.

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Post by Seanusarrilius Wed 01 Oct 2014, 4:45 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He should cherry pick is what you're saying....

No, he should go for the mandatory he has been given.

But if he wants to do what's best for his career, after two KO losses and a shaky comeback, he should target the world champ he can beat. That's just what I think is best for Groves. Easy fight to make as they are under same promotional banner.

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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 5:01 pm

What do you think's so special about dirrell Seanus? If andre ever got his act together I might agree but anthony is nothing to write home about.

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Post by .aveyard2.0 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 5:28 pm

I have sympathy for groves, I think all round he is a better fighter than froch, apart from the chin.

Let's not beat around the bush, Froch was in last chance saloon and would have seriously questioned the end impact on his legacy would he lose to groves. You can tell from froch mannerisms a lot of groves assesments were accurate. His fragile ego etc. I don't care for Froch much, he's a legend in his own head only. The worst bit for me was no less than 2 hours before the fight I was talking to "fan" about how froch isn't quite the devastating puncher he thinks he is, then he goes and lands that hail mary!

I actually admire Groves for not knowing when he's beat. I'd question his preparation, I think he needs a top level trainer, who can assert an authority over him and get hiim to make a few slight adjustments, is the difference between him being a champ and a challenger. Maybe a Richardson or somebody. Been there seen it done it type.

Froch is there for the taking, but you have to be at your best to beat him. Taylor should have, Dirrel should have, Kessler and Ward did.


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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 5:55 pm

Thanks Sandra. Presumably, then if the damage is to the frame if the house... Ie the flat roof on the ground floor flat, the costs of repair are to be shared across the three flat leaseholders?

Would the same apply to damp... Something which is only lightly to effect the ground floor flat but which is the framework of the building. I ask because I had some damp in the walls in the shower room of the ground floor flat, which I corrected at my own cost, but perhaps should have shared across the three flats?

Thanks

Mike

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Post by .aveyard2.0 Wed 01 Oct 2014, 6:01 pm

milkyboy wrote:Thanks Sandra. Presumably, then if the damage is to the frame if the house... Ie the flat roof on the ground floor flat, the costs of repair are to be shared across the three flat leaseholders?

Would the same apply to damp... Something which is only lightly to effect the ground floor flat but which is the framework of the building. I ask because I had some damp in the walls in the shower room of the ground floor flat, which I corrected at my own cost, but perhaps should have shared across the three flats?

Thanks

Mike

Hi Mike

yes.

Thanks
Sandra
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Post by Steffan Wed 01 Oct 2014, 6:06 pm

Dr. Nicolson,

Due to the recent increase in seminars and what with the Serbia report due in next week, I have fallen behind with my Roman Britain essay. Is it possible I can have an extension please even if it is only for a few days? Also, sorry I missed your lecture on Monday but I got drunk the night before and couldn't be bothered to get out of bed. Your lectures and not exactly much to miss anyway if I'm honest.

Regards,

Steffan

PS. Check out the blonde girl who sits on the far right of the front row. They are massive fair do

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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 7:49 pm

Ducking iPhones... And the idiots using them Whistle

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Wed 01 Oct 2014, 8:03 pm

.aveyard2.0 wrote:I have sympathy for groves, I think all round he is a better fighter than froch, apart from the chin.

Let's not beat around the bush, Froch was in last chance saloon and would have seriously questioned the end impact on his legacy would he lose to groves. You can tell from froch mannerisms a lot of groves assesments were accurate. His fragile ego etc. I don't care for Froch much, he's a legend in his own head only. The worst bit for me was no less than 2 hours before the fight I was talking to "fan" about how froch isn't quite the devastating puncher he thinks he is, then he goes and lands that hail mary!

I actually admire Groves for not knowing when he's beat. I'd question his preparation, I think he needs a top level trainer, who can assert an authority over him and get hiim to make a few slight adjustments, is the difference between him being a champ and a challenger. Maybe a Richardson or somebody. Been there seen it done it type.

Froch is there for the taking, but you have to be at your best to beat him. Taylor should have, Dirrel should have, Kessler and Ward did.



Were he a better all round fighter he'd have won twice but he didn't and it comes down to far more than just Froch's chin, his work to the body in the second fight was superb and he set up the knockout punch perfectly. If Groves was so much better he wouldn't getting banged to the body with 4/5 combinations nor would he have ended up with his back on the ropes.

Taylor was winning the fight but to say he should have won isn't really fair as a fight last 36 minutes not 35 and he couldn't sustain it for the full fight whereas the less said about Dirrell's performance the better.

You can make excuses every time somebody loses but when the same person keeps winning fights he perhaps shouldn't, I think you need to realise why and that's because Froch is a lot better than people give him credit for. His chin is a factor but you can't outlast opposition without putting in a lot of hard work and his determination to make the most of every last ounce of talent is a credit to him. I'd far rather cheer an apparent over achiever than an underachiever.

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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 8:28 pm

.aveyard2.0 wrote:
milkyboy wrote:Thanks Sandra. Presumably, then if the damage is to the frame if the house... Ie the flat roof on the ground floor flat, the costs of repair are to be shared across the three flat leaseholders?

Would the same apply to damp... Something which is only lightly to effect the ground floor flat but which is the framework of the building. I ask because I had some damp in the walls in the shower room of the ground floor flat, which I corrected at my own cost, but perhaps should have shared across the three flats?

Thanks

Mike

Hi Mike

yes.

Thanks
Sandra

Thanks Sandra. Forgot to say, thanks for last night and for being so understanding about my erectile disfunction.

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Post by Seanusarrilius Wed 01 Oct 2014, 8:42 pm

milkyboy wrote:What do you think's so special about dirrell Seanus? If andre ever got his act together I might agree but anthony is nothing to write home about.

I just think Dirrell has tools to beat the challenge Groves presents. Groves would be able to get a points lead, but I see Dirrell, who has fast hands and pop, gunning him down late.

Be a 60/40 fight that I would fancy Dirrell winning. Don't let two bad Bika fights fool you. Bika is a stylistic nightmare for anybody

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Post by milkyboy Wed 01 Oct 2014, 9:09 pm

I've seen the hanshaw fight and bika 1. I know bika is a spoiler but Dirrell was lazy and easy to hit, fought in spurts in both fights. He does have fast hands when he lets them go, seems durable and with groves chin he certainly has a chance, but I wouldn't be steering groves clear of him personally. Very winnable fight for him in my view.

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Post by Sugar Boy Sweetie Wed 01 Oct 2014, 11:21 pm

Sandra

Looking forward to our liaison tonight, I have procured a bucket of soapy frogs and a batman mask, I trust you were able to get a cork? If there is anything else we need please let me know in advance,

Best Wishes

Mr Big

PS if that pipsqueak comes round moaning about the damp flat again give him a fiver and send him to the pictures, I don't wanna be disturbed on the job.
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