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R2D Too..

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ralphjohn69
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Post by Bob_the_Job Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:03 pm

Congratulations to Rory McIlroy on winning the R2D again.

Anyone else feel it was a bit anticlimactic that he won this weekend without competing? So unlike Stenson's efforts and drama last year.

Is an in-form McIlroy just too strong for the rest of the European field? Do the majors have too big an impact on the points?
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Post by beninho Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:10 pm

If someone who wins 2 out of 4 majors, a WGC and the European Tours flagship event, does not wrap up the R2D early and convincingly, then they have flaws in the system. He has clearly been the best player on both tours this (last) season. He should have wrapped the Fedex up aswell, but that is not about finding the best player of the season, just the best for a few weeks.

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Post by hend085 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:15 pm

i thought previously you had to play in 3 of the last 4 events to be eligible for it? something along those lines if not exactly that.

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Post by navyblueshorts Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:27 pm

Yep. Congrats to McIlroy but it shows what a waste of time the R2D is...or at least, how flawed it is as a spectacle. May as well get the other players in the Final to simply form a guard of honour, drivers overhead, for McIlroy to parade down.
Imagine this year is a bit of an anachronism but what if he has a similarly strong year in 2016?
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Post by McLaren Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:38 pm

Thanks for raising this bob. I was thinking that an interesting debate could be had comparing the R2D and the fedex cup. I have always argued that the fedex is far too contrived, which I still beleive despite seeing such an anticlimactic end to the R2D.

As ben has mentioned above someone who has had a season like Mcilroys should not have to beat a player who is only playing well for a couple of weeks in a row to be crowned the seasons best player. No doubt Americans who are used to the dumbed down - commercially driven - playoff system are ok with the fedex, but here in europe a false final is not needed.

Just look how poorly double points in the last race of the season in f1 has been recieved!
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Post by super_realist Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:47 pm

McLaren wrote:Thanks for raising this bob.  I was thinking that an interesting debate could be had comparing the R2D and the fedex cup.  I have always argued that the fedex is far too contrived, which I still beleive despite seeing such an anticlimactic end to the R2D.

As ben has mentioned above someone who has had a season like Mcilroys should not have to beat a player who is only playing well for a couple of weeks in a row to be crowned the seasons best player. No doubt Americans who are used to the dumbed down - commercially driven - playoff system are ok with the fedex, but here in europe a false final is not needed.

Just look how poorly double points in the last race of the season in f1 has been recieved!

I'd laugh if Hamilton loses because of that. He's another one of sports' bumholes.

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Post by Davie Mon 17 Nov 2014, 1:37 pm

Not sure I understand why people moan about the Fedex finale (and R2D for that matter) - take them for what they are.

If anyone tried to claim that the Fedex winner was the best player of the year, then they are deluded - but take it as a contest where full season form goes a certain way to getting your place in the finals .. and to a lesser extent, giving you more chance of getting through to the end ... but that's it!

These events may be promoted in the wrong manner but the format is known to everyone. It's like the "champions league" where non-champions can get in.

Don't understand the fuss over the F1 double points either .. it's been known since the start of the season - it's just the rules. Get used to it

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Post by raycastleunited Mon 17 Nov 2014, 2:19 pm

I always liked R2D too. I was a bit annoyed with the Phantom Menace though, where they tried to overplay the anthropomorphism and gave him an award for bravery, he's supposed to be a robot FFS!

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Post by MustPuttBetter Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

Ha ha excellent clap
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Post by McLaren Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:51 pm

Davie

The fedex has ruined the money list, which was actually quite an interesting part of the season. A season long measure of play based on points is an improvement over the money list, but distorting the season in the way the fedex does is just daft and artificial.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:56 pm

Pretty good handful of winners so far:
Westwood, Karlsson, Quiros, McIlroy, Stenson.

Time they announced the final line-up: The "leading sixty available players" from the R2D points list. Can't be that difficult to find out who fancies turning up.

Plus: Q-School: How many cards to they issue?

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Post by GPB Mon 17 Nov 2014, 5:55 pm

IMO, the FEDEX Cup is a brilliant design. No one suggests that Billy Horschel had the best season, but he did have the best month and the best final week.

Unless weather intervenes, PGAT and EuroT tournaments are decided in 4 rounds...not 3 rounds.

If Rory happens to shoot 59-59 in Round 1 and Round 2 and has a 15 shot lead going into the weekend, he still has to show up in Rounds 3 and 4 and win the golf tournament. If he gets hit by a bus, he doesn't win the golf tournament. And I don't think a yearlong competition should be decided without the performing in the finale.

The EuroT needs a point based system rather than money list. First place in the WGCs and Majors are more than the entire purse of many of the EuroT event. The FEX structure gives a 20% bonus for Majors and 10% bonus for WGCs over regular events and the ET should do something similar.

To give some USA sports analogies, the World Series is won in October, and not April-September. The SuperBowl is won on the first Sunday in February, not during September-December.

I think Rory should have fallen a few notches for not playing in the Run-up to finale. He still should be eligible to win it....but not be ahead, and let alone already clinched the R2D.

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Post by SmithersJones Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:01 pm

McLaren wrote:Thanks for raising this bob.  I was thinking that an interesting debate could be had comparing the R2D and the fedex cup.  I have always argued that the fedex is far too contrived, which I still beleive despite seeing such an anticlimactic end to the R2D.

As ben has mentioned above someone who has had a season like Mcilroys should not have to beat a player who is only playing well for a couple of weeks in a row to be crowned the seasons best player. No doubt Americans who are used to the dumbed down - commercially driven - playoff system are ok with the fedex, but here in europe a false final is not needed.

Just look how poorly double points in the last race of the season in f1 has been recieved!

I before E except after C, Mac. Quite an achievement to get that wrong both ways in one post. I agree with you entirely, though.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:32 pm

GPB,

You were going so well until you mentioned the World Series and SuperBowl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Their structure renders the months preceding them largely irrelevant (two teams who were also-rans during the past regular season contested the WS for instance, great entertainment tho' they provided) and neither is reflective of who is necessarily the best team. That is anathema to most sports fans in the ROTW.

That's OK with R2D and FedEx as the Majors are clearly the gold standard, probably with The Players and WGC's a couple of notches below.

Fortunately I would suggest that the six years of R2D have crowned the right man each time. No criticism of the FedEx intended.


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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:43 pm

I see the field now - looks like Casey might be the only absentee.
Dutiful parenting no doubt taking precedence over golf.
Just like the rest of us then??

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:51 pm

Where did you find the field Kwini?  Doesn't look like it's on the ET website yet and by my understanding there's five likely to miss out:  Justin Rose, Louis Oosthuizen, Paul Casey, David Lipsky, and Oliver Wilson.  All of these have played less than 14 ET events so far and according to the ET website

To Participate in the 2014 DP World Tour Championship, Dubai, a Ranked Member in Categories 1-15 must have already Participated in sufficient Race to Dubai Tournaments, such that when Participation in this tournament is added, he will have fulfilled his requirements of the minimum tournaments regulation.

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:57 pm

Ah ha!
You're probably correct then Grumps; I found the purported "entry list" on the owgr web-site, and the four you mention were definitely listed. One thing about Lipsky and Wilson is that perhaps they played an adequate %age of events once they became exempt, but I'm speculating.
(PS: Bl00dy snow; hoped it would never come.)

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Post by GPB Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:03 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:GPB,

Fortunately I would suggest that the six years of R2D have crowned the right man each time. No criticism of the FedEx intended.



Do you mean the years when the leading money winner was not a member of the European Tour?

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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:08 pm

Which years would that be?

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:17 pm

Rose, Oosthuizen, and Casey have all played 13 events so far according to the R2D standings so to miss out by one event is a bit foolish. It would appear to be really silly for Rose as he's in 8th place in the bonus pool and Oosthuizen who's just outside of it in 20th place. Casey took the final spot in the standings.

Can't profess any knowledge of the system regarding Wilson and Lipsky but they have 8 events listed and occupy positions in the 50s.

We've had a little bit of snow, which was enough to close the course Friday and Saturday, and heavy rain now so any residual snow will be washed away.

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Post by McLaren Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:21 pm

Golf has loads short events. That is why a decent season long competition that meant something would be good. Football (soccer), rugby, f1 etc all have leagues that are based on a points system over a whole season.

A season long golf competition based on points - and not money - and not biased by a few final events would be really interesting.
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Post by kwinigolfer Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:25 pm

I don't know for absolute certain, but both Oosty and Rose could well have missed intended events due to injury . . . . I'd be very surprised if they wanted to play but couldn't given that both missed Turkey.

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Post by Davie Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:53 pm

McLaren wrote:Davie

The fedex has ruined the money list, which was actually quite an interesting part of the season.   A season long measure of play based on points is an improvement over the money list, but distorting the season in the way the fedex does is just daft and artificial.

You're not reading the rules Mac .. The money list is still a great way of determining who has had the best season. The Fedex is a series of tournaments that decides who wins the Fedex. A good season puts you in a good position .. and that's it. The winner of the Fedex is a worthy winner .. of the Fedex. Sounds like I'm repeating myself or stating the obvious .. but some people can't see the obvious

Fedex winner is the (deserved) winner of the Fedex series .. under the rules of that tournament. Money list winner is probably the best player of the season.

No one tries to claim the FA Cup winner is the best team in the PL - why should this be any different?

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Post by MustPuttBetter Tue 18 Nov 2014, 1:10 am

Have to disagree Davie. Quote from the FedEx Cup official website -

"The FedExCup Playoffs determine the season-long champion on the PGA TOUR."

For this purpose it is ill equipped and, as you say, only serves to crown the best player of a one month period. It is designed for excitement only, which it does deliver

http://www.pgatour.com/fedexcup/fedexcup-overview.html
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:21 am

SmithersJones wrote:...I before E except after C, Mac. Quite an achievement to get that wrong both ways in one post. I agree with you entirely, though.
As a scientist, I think this is a weird rule probably conjured up by those damned feisty foreigners. Or maybe my neighbour...
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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:29 am

There are loads of examples where I before E except after C isn't the case. It is no longer taught.

perceive, deceit, transceiver, receipts, conceive, conceited for example.

Apparently there are more words which do not conform to the rule than actually do.

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Post by ralphjohn69 Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:39 am

super_realist wrote:There are loads of examples where I before E except after C isn't the case. It is no longer taught.

perceive, deceit, transceiver, receipts, conceive, conceited for example.

Apparently there are more words which do not conform to the rule than actually do.

Except these examples are all after C so do conform to that rule; or am I missing something??!

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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:43 am

ralphjohn69 wrote:
super_realist wrote:There are loads of examples where I before E except after C isn't the case. It is no longer taught.

perceive, deceit, transceiver, receipts, conceive, conceited for example.

Apparently there are more words which do not conform to the rule than actually do.

Except these examples are all after C so do conform to that rule; or am I missing something??!

Sorry, I've got that mixed up.
Examples I should have given are: beige, cleidoic, codeine, conscience, deify, deity, deign,
dreidel, eider, eight, either, feign, feint, feisty,
foreign, forfeit, freight, gleization, gneiss, greige,
greisen, heifer, height, heinous, heir, heist,
leitmotiv, neigh, neighbor, neither, peignoir, prescient,
rein, science, seiche, seidel, seismic, seize, sheik,
society, sovereign, surfeit, teiid, veil, vein, weight,
weir, weird

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Post by Davie Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:54 am

I was always taught the full rule was "I before E except after C, when the sound is EEE" - as with any rule, there will still be exceptions, but it does cut out most of the exceptions mentioned above

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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 8:58 am

Davie wrote:I was always taught the full rule was "I before E except after C, when the sound is EEE" - as with any rule, there will still be exceptions, but it does cut out most of the exceptions mentioned above

Makes sense with that rule, never heard of that adendum though

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Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:02 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:...I before E except after C, Mac. Quite an achievement to get that wrong both ways in one post. I agree with you entirely, though.
As a scientist, I think this is a weird rule probably conjured up by those damned feisty foreigners. Or maybe my neighbour...

ha ha, good work.

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Post by McLaren Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:27 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:...I before E except after C, Mac. Quite an achievement to get that wrong both ways in one post. I agree with you entirely, though.
As a scientist, I think this is a weird rule probably conjured up by those damned feisty foreigners. Or maybe my neighbour...

As a fellow scientist I agree. According to QI, super is correct about their being more exceptions to the rule.


PS I had a look at the post of mine that was attacked for getting it wrong and can't find the error. Can anyone help?
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Post by McLaren Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:31 am

Davie wrote:
McLaren wrote:Davie

The fedex has ruined the money list, which was actually quite an interesting part of the season.   A season long measure of play based on points is an improvement over the money list, but distorting the season in the way the fedex does is just daft and artificial.

You're not reading the rules Mac .. The money list is still a great way of determining who has had the best season. The Fedex is a series of tournaments that decides who wins the Fedex. A good season puts you in a good position .. and that's it. The winner of the Fedex is a worthy winner .. of the Fedex. Sounds like I'm repeating myself or stating the obvious .. but some people can't see the obvious

Fedex winner is the (deserved) winner of the Fedex series .. under the rules of that tournament. Money list winner is probably the best player of the season.

No one tries to claim the FA Cup winner is the best team in the PL - why should this be any different?

Davie

You are repeating the point as you are not reading mine. I have no doubt that the fedex would be great as a standalone 4 event series, but it is used to determine the final standings and exemptions for the next season. If you accept this, then it is clear that the final fedex list is an attempt to rank players based on the whole seasons play, but with the play off events more heavily weighted.
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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:32 am

McLaren wrote:...PS I had a look at the post of mine that was attacked for getting it wrong and can't find the error. Can anyone help?
Last word - "recieved!"(sic)...


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Post by Davie Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:32 am

"beleive" and "recieved"

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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:54 am

Mac, in what way are you a scientist? Do you hold a scientific post?

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Post by McLaren Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:13 am

What is your obsession super? For years you have wanted me to divulge my degree and job, but I am not about to do it now. In the same way you won't admit what your qualifications are.
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Post by SmithersJones Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:17 am

Unusually thick for you, Super. Scientist has i before e after a c. Lovely reply, NBS, btw.

Edit: unusually thick for me, actually, I thought you'd addressed it to Navy.


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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:18 am

I have plenty times Mac, I'm curious as to why you consider yourself a Scientist, do you hold a Scientific post or do you consider yourself a science by virtue of having a BSc or MSc or simply being an advocate of the Scientific method?

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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:23 am

SmithersJones wrote:Unusually thick for you, Super. Scientist has i before e after a c. Lovely reply, NBS, btw.

No Smithers, it's you who is thick here old chap. The "rule" is I before E EXCEPT after a C. In the word SCIENCE "I" is before "E" IN SPITE of it being after C.

It goes against the rule. The rule assumes everything after a C should be EI, not IE. Science is IE, hence goes against the rule.

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Post by McLaren Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:27 am

Super

Why are you so curious, it is unlikely I will meet whatever standard you want me to meet?

If you wish to continue this at least have the graciousness to take it to the OT thread.
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Post by SmithersJones Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:28 am

super_realist wrote:
SmithersJones wrote:Unusually thick for you, Super. Scientist has i before e after a c. Lovely reply, NBS, btw.

No Smithers, it's you who is thick here old chap. The "rule" is I before E EXCEPT after a C. In the word SCIENCE "I" is before "E" IN SPITE of it being after C.

It goes against the rule. The rule assumes everything after a C should be EI, not IE. Science is IE, hence goes against the rule.

As I've edited above, I was being thick but not for the reason you say. I was pointing out exactly what you've said, that it's an exception, as were so many of the words in Navy's very witty post. I thought you were questioning his assertion rather than Mac's, which is why I thought you were being thick. So just me, but not quite so thick as that.
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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:31 am

Sorry Smithers, didn't read into Navy's post too much.


Mac, I'm curious because you act as if you are an expert on a number of issues and I'm just wondering how you qualify that.

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Post by Davie Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:33 am

But the IE in Science isn't a sound of EEE ...

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Post by navyblueshorts Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:44 am

Davie wrote:But the IE in Science isn't a sound of EEE ...
But I've never come across your qualifier Davie, even if it does iron out many exceptions Very Happy.

Anyway, what's all this got to do with the R2D?
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Post by super_realist Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:47 am

Blame Mac.

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Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:56 am

I before E when it's meant to be, the other way round as long as it's sound.


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Post by Roller_Coaster Tue 18 Nov 2014, 10:57 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:But the IE in Science isn't a sound of EEE ...
But I've never come across your qualifier Davie, even if it does iron out many exceptions Very Happy.

Anyway, what's all this got to do with the R2D?

Race to Dubaie?

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Post by 1GrumpyGolfer Tue 18 Nov 2014, 11:02 am

Back on topic:

The field is finally confirmed and four of the dodgy ground parties are in the field. Not sure how they qualified as such if they haven't played the requisite number of events. The only one to miss out is Casey and that maybe for the reasons that Kwini alluded to earlier. Another head scratcher for me is the inclusion of Manassero who was ranked 61st. Makes it a bit of a mockery for me. Perhaps they should reword it to around the top 60 or so places will play in the final event?

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Post by McLaren Tue 18 Nov 2014, 11:08 am

Does 61st get in if one of the top 60 pull out?
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