How do we tackle the problem of ISIS?

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Post by Liam on Tue 23 Dec 2014, 7:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

I don't post in the off topic section often, however I am a keen reader, especially when there is a topic of political relevance. However, often is the case that a discussion turns personal and the thread is locked and the section is removed temporarily. Its easier to let things get out of hand on an online forum, but often there is some really good, intellectual discussion that always then is spoiled as soon as someone posts the first insult. So please, for anyone getting involved in this discussion, and I apologise in advance to the mods who often have their work cut out, if the thread does take a turn for the worse, can we keep this a good, clean debate on the different ways in which the countries in West can approach the problem in the middle east currently. I'm intrigued as I've heard many views from friends in University, ranging from not really doing anything to increasing the bombing campaign currently ongoing.

No insults, just good discussion. If you don't agree with someone's view or deep down believe they're talking rubbish in your eyes, simply say "I disagree" then provide your point of view, rather than resorting to an insult, because as soon as you go down that route, your point becomes null and void.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:06 pm

kingraf wrote:Don't know how that popped up again. Internet must be getting flaky.

Truss, how does explaining to you how you're more likely to get caught being an idiot on twitter than the OT board make come across as a sympathiser? The entire world can see that kids statement, about forty people can see anything written on here, the result isn't really all that surprising

Aye out of hundreds of millions of people a few ever bother to take it further or report it. Out of forty there's probably none.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:15 pm

kingraf wrote:So why should Religion be marginalised? Because God doesn't exist? He/she/it may not, but that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to believe in one. All you do then is invariably replace dogma with more idiotic dogma. The reality is ISIS have arisen because western countries meddle in affairs that are none of their business. Why was the Ottoman empire carved up in world war 1? Were the Ottoman citizens consulted in this? Similarly why are Israel suddenly promised a homeland* slap bang in Ottoman territory?  The miracle is that it's taken this long for the bottle to open.

*Homeland is a rather loose term, as European Jews aren't genetically** particularly Jewish.

**Religion has nothing to do with genetics. It is a creation of the human imagination. You are not born *<insert name of religion>* you simply get brought up into it until you mature enough to chose whether to continue to adopt it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:21 pm

I was brought up as a Catholic in the most Catholic State in America....

I try to believe in God but I have little faith If honest.........

But fairplay to those who do.........

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:25 pm

Jews are a people though Toppy. It's a genetic fact that people raised Jews have more genetic links than say Protestant Christians. Even the idiot Venda Jews all the way down in South Africa are genetically linked with European Jews, in fact Venda Jews are partenally more Jewish than they are bantu black... despite being black. Same with the Falasha Jews of East Africa.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:26 pm

Are you Dave Whelan ??

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:31 pm

Okay, I was out of line, Venda Jews are not idiots. I just don't understand how they are Jews that ended up so far down.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:37 pm

kingraf wrote:Jews are a people though Toppy. It's a genetic fact that people raised Jews have more genetic links than say Protestant Christians. Even the idiot Venda Jews all the way down in South Africa are genetically linked with European Jews, in fact Venda Jews are partenally more Jewish than they are bantu black... despite being black. Same with the Falasha Jews of East Africa.

No, they are not. There is no 'JEW GENE'. It doesn't exist. It's just Jews having Jews having Jews etc over hundreds of years and propagating the belief that you can be Jewish by birth. It's baloney. Clue being that this mythical 'Jew gene' can only be passed on by the mother...

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:43 pm

kingraf wrote:Even the idiot Venda Jews

Has a go at me for supposedly making disparaging comments [not true] about a certain group of society, subsequently makes a disparaging comment about a certain group of society. #hypocrisy

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:45 pm

The thing is Toppy they really are. You also understand the scripture wrong, the Jew gene as you like to call it can't only be passed down by the mother, but the belief system states that the religion of Judaism can only be "passed down" maternally, but there's no magic Jewish genome which is only present in women, although modern science is such that it now allows us to see which genealogy was picked up partenally or maternally. This is in fact the bug bear about the Venda Jews. Their Jewishness is paternal DNA, no maternal and as such even though they are genetically more Semitic than European Jews, they aren't regarded by mainstream Judaism as Jews.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:50 pm

The original hebrew Israelites were black.

Moses was black

The ancient Egyptians were black and they enslaved the black hebrew nation


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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 4:54 pm

I acknowledged I was out of line... Shouldn't be calling them idiots.They're Jewish, I'm partly Jewish we should all be sticking our noses in the air at non Jews together.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:01 pm

kingraf wrote:The thing is  Toppy they really are. You also understand the scripture wrong, the Jew gene as you like to call it can't only be passed down by the mother, but the belief system states that the religion of Judaism can only be "passed down" maternally, but there's no magic Jewish genome which is only present in women, although modern science is such that it now allows us to see which genealogy was picked up partenally or maternally. This is in fact the bug bear about the Venda Jews. Their Jewishness is paternal DNA, no maternal and as such even though they are genetically more Semitic than European Jews, they aren't regarded by mainstream Judaism as Jews.

There is no JEW GENE.

I don't know how else to say it. Jews teach themselves that there is, and people choose to believe them, but I have never ever seen or heard of any actual medical evidence highlighting this gene (like there is for things like hair colour or skin colour) being located in human DNA.

It's simply generations of a group of (essentially inbred) people over time.

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Post by Silentban on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:17 pm

kingraf wrote:The thing is  Toppy they really are. You also understand the scripture wrong, the Jew gene as you like to call it can't only be passed down by the mother, but the belief system states that the religion of Judaism can only be "passed down" maternally, but there's no magic Jewish genome which is only present in women, although modern science is such that it now allows us to see which genealogy was picked up partenally or maternally. This is in fact the bug bear about the Venda Jews. Their Jewishness is paternal DNA, no maternal and as such even though they are genetically more Semitic than European Jews, they aren't regarded by mainstream Judaism as Jews.

Are you saying the reason for their Jewish belief's is down to their genetics??

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:22 pm

I said nothing about a Jew gene. I said Jews are genetically more similar than people from other religions.The fact that they are this way because they basically inbred is obvious, they aren't mystical creatures. but doesn't change the fact that they share common ancestry and a way of life. Exactly what constitutes a population then? Being genetically similar doesn't mean there is common gene only Jews have, it means that major Jewish groups share maternal links with other Jews and the people who lived in what is commonly accepted as historic Israel. You called them a group of people, I called them a people... what are you disagreeing with exactly?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:31 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
kingraf wrote:The thing is  Toppy they really are. You also understand the scripture wrong, the Jew gene as you like to call it can't only be passed down by the mother, but the belief system states that the religion of Judaism can only be "passed down" maternally, but there's no magic Jewish genome which is only present in women, although modern science is such that it now allows us to see which genealogy was picked up partenally or maternally. This is in fact the bug bear about the Venda Jews. Their Jewishness is paternal DNA, no maternal and as such even though they are genetically more Semitic than European Jews, they aren't regarded by mainstream Judaism as Jews.

There is no JEW GENE..

Apparently they are born with a preference for Levi's ......Scientists have found !!

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:42 pm

Silent, no mate. Well maybe. Major Jewish groups are all very similar. Judaism wasn't really spread across the world to conquered people like Islam and Christianity. Why would it be, since the main idea about Judaism is of Jews being a chosen people does make it rather exclusive. So it does make sense that since Judaism isn't in the main a recruitment religion, the majority are historical Jews. Some left historic Israel earlier than others, like Demba Jews, who practise a very old rendition of Judaism due to the fact that they left the Holy Land at an earlier stage of the development of Judaism. I acknowledge that the Falasha are a bit of a conundrum, for one Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity is more Jewish than traditionally Western denominations and the fact that the 80s regime basically (like all Dictatorships with Jewish population groups they are ashamed of)
1. pretended they didn't exist (they were literally written off the history books, and universities)
2. Killed them off.

The other thing about the Falasha is that their ritualistic practises doesn't really match up with the timeline given for their migration to East Africa. Many of their practises stopped at least 600B.C while anthropology experts put their departure from the Holy Land at 600 AD. More complicated still is the fact that most Ethiopians are believed to be genetically similar to the Falasha, just they were weak willed enough to be converted by the Western missionaries... So in closing I guess.
- It's possible to be genetically linked to Jews without being Jewish religiously
- It's highly unlikely to be a practising Jew without having lineal links to the Holy Land.
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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 5:45 pm

gone rather off-topic from the originial point haven't we?

I think what raf is trying to say is that as a religion Judaism is "tighter knit" than say, Islam or Chistianity. Jews are linked by more than just religious beliefs (my Dad says he considers himself Jewish but doesn't actually believe in God for instance). For what it's worth I agree with him.

Back to the original topic, it's a tough one. I tend to agree, in a sense, with raf, that ISIS arose because of America's response to 9/11 (not saying it was wrong BTW) and serial meddling in the Middle-East thereafter. Imagine you're a young teenager (say 10-12) at the time. You grow up through that key phase of your life by waking up every night terrified as "those Evil Westerners" drop bombs on you and your friends. This happens night after night. If you're an Iraqi, you struggle for food (because "the westerners" have an embargo), maybe drink too.

How do you react? Do you hate those who are doing this to you? Of course you do, it's only natural. Sure, a rational viewpoint could be that this is just a necessary response from the US after a horrific attack killed thousands of innocents on their soil, and that the innocent lives lost to these bombs are just unfortunate collateral damage, but chances are, if you're living through this, you're not going to be rationnal about it (or even allowed to be). And so, when these young kids reach their late teens/early twenties, ISIS is born.

In view of this, it's quite clear to me that carrying on bombing is only going to make things worse, and perpetuate that cycle of violence. So what's the alternative? Doing nothing? But then ISIS will surely only grow stronger. Probably the best thing I can think of is helping the local authorities on the ground as much as possible, and working towards a solution with them.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:07 pm

kingraf wrote:I said nothing about a Jew gene. I said Jews are genetically more similar than people from other religions.The fact that they are this way because they basically inbred is obvious, they aren't mystical creatures. but doesn't change the fact that they share common ancestry and a way of life. Exactly what constitutes a population then? Being genetically similar doesn't mean there is common gene only Jews have, it means that major Jewish groups share maternal links with other Jews and the people who lived in what is commonly accepted as historic Israel. You called them a group of people, I called them a people... what are you disagreeing with exactly?

"I said nothing about a Jew gene"

Next, and preceding, statements all refer to genetic links between Jews as if this genetic link defines them as Jews.

It's horsesh!t.

You can walk away from being a Jew (as you can from being a Christian or a Muslim).  You can't walk away from your skin colour. Or from having ginger hair. Or from a genetic hereditary disease of some description. Etc etc...


Last edited by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:16 pm

Genetic link... and a genome isn't the same thing. That's basic high school comprehension. Genetic link means they share an uncharacteristically high percentage of genetic sequencing which can't be found between say, you and I. You can't walk away from you mitochondrial DNA, neither can your kids, even after you find a person from a completely differently population group to have kids with. What does being black mean? Somalians are black in skin colour only, but are more like the North African Arabs genetically. Are they now black because their skin is black, despite their history, genetic disposition and lifestyle being Arab? What a completely incorrect superficial statement.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:24 pm

Trust you to get 'being black' as the statement of several I made to get hung up on. Rolling Eyes

Fact is nobody is born Jewish.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:31 pm

I got being black because it's a stupid statement to make. Answer question, what are Somalians. Skin says black, genetics say Arab... Which are they? Also quite a few diseases which occur much higher in Jews than other population groups.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:32 pm

I've edited my post for the benefit of tedious shoulder-chip pedantry.

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Post by kingraf on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 6:41 pm

It's not tedious, you edited it because you have logical retort. In any case MFC understood my post you didn't and continue to choose not to. So c'est la vie.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 07 Jan 2015, 10:11 pm

AskhaNAZI jews are not related to the ancient Hebrews of the bible. they are jewish as they practice Judaism but they are from European descent.

They say they are the people of the bible

Je-Wish.


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