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What's next for Khan ?

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Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake
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Post by Rodney Tue 24 Feb 2015, 9:09 am

First topic message reminder :

Its well publicised Khan was waiting on a fight with either Floyd or Manny, with these two meeting that's down the pan now. So what is realistically Amir Khan's next matchup ? I warmed to Khan over the past few years but he seems to reverted to a delusion of grandeur with recent statements of "Floyd took the easy option" and "Brook is not on my level". What recently has elevated Khan to this opinion ?? Brook beat Porter who handsomely defeated Alexander as did Khan and its not too long back Khan was struggling against Diaz and being pancaked by Garcia.. Realistically Brook seems the most viable option to me , sit out until July/August when the match can be made.

Either...
Brook
Maidana
Broner.. would be my picks but really not sure as Khan seems to think he is the big cheese now.

Cheers, Rodders
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Post by captain carrantuohil Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:45 pm

I've no doubt that the bookies (certainly the Vegas variety) would make Brook second favourite against both Bradley and Khan. Khan would also start at more than a shade of odds-on in Britain at your local William Hill in a contest against Brook. Patriotic weight of money might make Bradley-Brook a pick 'em over here, but that's about it. Only the Porter fight has told us that Brook belongs in this class. His dreadful experience in Spain has prevented him from following up but until he does, he would certainly not merit starting favourite against Bradley.

If anyone right now wanted to offer me 7/4 against Bradley in a fight with Brook, I'd be obliged to have a word with my bank manager to see how much I'd be allowed to wager.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:48 pm

88Chris05 wrote:You think he's at the same level as Carson Jones, Truss?

I think Carson is a better talent, Chris !!

This guy has a chin from God.........But he fights with his face and you can't miss !! Heaven knows what Bradley was doing that night.....Algieri outboxed the guy and he's ordinary.....

BUT.............He's a right to be "ranked" higher than Carson because he's been a World champion.........

I don't rate him at all.............He's a poor Man's Chuvalo..

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:56 pm

I don't think Bradley being a defending titlist makes any difference really, Hammersmith. If it's a question of context as you say, then surely having already fought and outclassed guys like Matt Hatton and Lovemore N'Dou, arguably a step up from Jones, Brook should have been more than ready for Jones and not have struggled like that?

As I said, though, for me whichever way you slice it Jones just isn't in the same class as Provodnikov. Just because Provodnikov is in the lower rung of world champions in recent years doesn't mean he's not still a clear class above a fighter like Jones who never has and almost certainly never will contest a world title. Bradley and Brook struggled unexpectedly but Bradley did so against a demonstrably better fighter.

Granted, I'm sure Brook is a better fighter now than he was in 2012 and the nightmare against Jones first time out was in part due to him not being properly prepared, on subsequent evidence. But I still think it's a source of more ignominy than the Provodnikov fight was / is for Bradley.

Anyway, good debate all round. Back to the original point, to summarise - Brook is the glaringly obvious choice for Khan right now in my eyes, and I think Khan wins. Outside of that, Bradley, who I'd make a narrow favourite over Amir.
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Post by Coxy001 Tue 24 Feb 2015, 4:58 pm

If the three were to fight a round robin I would not be expecting Bradley to win against either, he's slower than both, possesses less power than both, less punch variety and dare I say is the inferior body puncher of the three.

So overall you don't really rate him that much then?!

You don't run Pacquiao close (lost in my eyes, but it wasn't exactly by a shutout) without being a half decent boxer.

Garcia was slower than Khan, is a one handed fighter, has poorer technique, balance and everything apart from power. Yet we all know how that one went.

Styles styles styles.

Rough + tumble = Khan is out of his rhythm and struggles. In my eyes that's where Bradley takes him.

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Post by tunes666 Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:21 pm

Mayweather wont fight Khan before he retires so Khan should jus forget that one.

When Manny loses the Mayweather fight depending on how good a performance he puts on it might be a good fight for Khan.. and a good fight also.

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Post by Derbymanc Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:29 pm

The thing is what has Khan done to warrant a fight with the best in that division. Needs to have another fight or 2 really.

Would like to see him rematch Maidana (hopefully) win and then say he wants Floyd.

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Post by captain carrantuohil Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:30 pm

Think Floyd has an absolute maximum of three contests left in him. Pacquiao will be his 48th fight; if he wins that and the fight is sufficiently exciting, we have to accept the possibility that such a giant money-spinner might well be Mayweather's idea of his 49th fight as well. So Pacquiao x2 (given the right results) takes us up to 49-0; Floyd would then be able to sell his fiftieth fight as the one that will shove him ahead of Marciano in the statistical greatness stakes. By then, there will be absolutely no risks taken - Floyd will certainly not be granting an opportunity to anyone likely to spoil the party as he shoots for the record. Khan will indeed have to look elsewhere for his huge payday.

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Post by milkyboy Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:53 pm

Derbymanc wrote:The thing is what has Khan done to warrant a fight with the best in that division.

Compared to Guerrero, rios, maidana himself etc etc. I don't think deserving really comes into it these days derby.


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Post by Derbymanc Tue 24 Feb 2015, 5:57 pm

But it should Milky, I want Khan to fight Floyd but he needs to get himself into a position where Floyd would look daft if he turned it down.

At the moment people can say what has he done. Failed on PPV over here, lost to Garcia, Peterson (controversially mind you,) and so on.

He needs to stop hanging on for that call and start fighting some of the others at the weight. I like Khan and want to see him appreciated rather than tossed aside.

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Post by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake Wed 25 Feb 2015, 11:28 am

I'd like to see Khan in against Broner. I think it's a good test for both of them. Both of them are unproven at WW for me. Broner has a fight in March but could realistically fight again before ramadan.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:09 pm

To be honest, I'm yet to be convinced that Khan is a world class welterweight, in that he's yet to prove he can compete on a consistent basis with the very best of the division.

That's not to say he won't prove me wrong and things have been looking good in his last two fights with what you'd call two very decent but not quite exceptional wins, but beat Thurman and Brook on the spin and I may change my mind. A win over Bradley would be a step in the right direction too and that could be the win that swings it for me. Be a very tough fight for Khan mind.

Beat any one of Brook, Thurman or Bradley and yes I'll call him world class.

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Post by hazharrison Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:36 pm

Here are your world class welterweights:

1 Floyd Mayweather 47-0-0 (26) USA 1
2 Manny Pacquiao 57-5-2 (38) PHI 2
3 Timothy Bradley 31-1-1 (12) USA 3
4 Juan Manuel Marquez 56-7-1 (40) MEX 4
5 Amir Khan 30-3-0 (19) ENG 5
6 Kell Brook 33-0-0 (22) ENG 6
7 Marcos Maidana 35-5-0 (31) ARG 7
8 Keith Thurman 24-0-0 (21) USA 8
9 Shawn Porter 24-1-1 (15) USA 9
10 Diego Chaves 23-2-1 (19) ARG 10

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:47 pm

I'd probably say he's only favourite to beat Chaves on that list. And maybe Marquez because he's old but even then I wouldn't bet on it.

If Rios or Matthysse moved up, I'd make them favourite to beat him.

So touch and go for me if he's a genuine top ten welterweight as thing stand.

Going in the right direction though...

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Post by Guest Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:54 pm

Bradley Pryce should call him out.....................

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:56 pm

I'm not sure Haz has thought this through...

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Post by captain carrantuohil Wed 25 Feb 2015, 12:58 pm

I would make him favourite to beat his previous victim Maidana and I doubt that there's a bookie in the world who would price Brook ahead of him in any contest at this stage. As Brook beat Porter and I doubt that Porter brings anything that Khan hasn't seen yet to the table, I'd tip Amir to win that one as well. Thurman, a proper hitter, is a different matter - he's one who brings a lot of what Khan is less comfortable with.

The elixir of youth must have run out for Marquez, although the top two and Bradley would have to rank ahead of him as things stand. For me, Khan would stand a pretty decent chance against half of this list and be a live outsider against the rest.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:08 pm

Now that's where we disagree captain, I make the Garcia-trained  Maidana clear favourite to overturn the loss at welterweight.

I don't think Khan would like Porter's pressure, not one bit.

Brook I have odds on to beat Khan.

All opinions though, that's what makes the forum such fun!  (I hope.)

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Post by captain carrantuohil Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:15 pm

If you're right, you'll do very well with the evil bookies. Maidana would be something like a 6-4 or 7-4 shot to win in any manner, I'd think; Brook and Porter might be 2-1 against or even better odds than that.

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:19 pm

You may very well be right about him beating Maidana again. Khan's improving too. 50/50 is probably more how I see it.

Who knows, maybe he can keep the fight with Porter on the outside, but in truth I don't think he has Brook's strength..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:34 pm

Herman Jaggery wrote:Now that's where we disagree captain, I make the Garcia-trained  Maidana clear favourite to overturn the loss at welterweight.

I don't think Khan would like Porter's pressure, not one bit.

Brook I have odds on to beat Khan.

All opinions though, that's what makes the forum such fun!  (I hope.)

Khan is quicker with a better jab...............For my money unless the Boxer with that advantage makes a big mistake he's pretty much odds on to win !!

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:48 pm

Timing beats speed.

You've also got to factor in Brook's strength of will if it gets messy...


I don't think he can hurt Brook either.

Can't rule it out Khan winning on points though, I suppose...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:50 pm

Herman Jaggery wrote:Timing beats speed.

You've also got to factor in Brook's strength of will if it gets messy...


I don't think he can hurt Brook either.

Can't rule it out Khan winning on points though, I suppose...

Hard to tell what Leonard's timing was like in the Hearns fight..........That jab controlled the fight..

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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 1:58 pm

Good enough to knock him out as it turned out!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:08 pm

Herman Jaggery wrote:Good enough to knock him out as it turned out!

Certainly was............Like I said unless you make a "mistake"...........Faster hands and a better jab is a huge advantage......As Hearns showed..


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Post by Herman Jaeger Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:20 pm

Maybe Ray made him make that mistake...


And every fighter loses a bit of speed in the later rounds although there must be a few exceptions over the years to that rule. Maybe Ray timed the moment as well as the punch...


I suppose we don't see fighters tire so much these days though with the twelve rounders.

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Post by 88Chris05 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:39 pm

Would you say Hearns was faster than Leonard, Truss? Tommy was very quick, for sure, but Leonard was greased lightning. Comparable to Meldrick Taylor and Camacho when he was a young Welter.

Agree on the jab part, though. Hearns had a nightmare jab for anyone to try and deal with and it kept Leonard in check for a long time. Oddly enough, while Leonard is seen as one of boxing's more savvy fighters and Hearns' ring IQ is considered a little on the low side, you could argue that Tommy (or Manny Steward, if you like) came in to the fight initally with a much better gameplan than Ray. Leonard spent a long time circling on the outside where it was almost impossible for him to have much success and didn't / couldn't really change anything up until round six and seven when he started showing some of that out and out brawler mode which eventually won it for him.

Aside from staggering Leonard in the eleventh with that right cross, Hearns fought a pretty low-key fight by his standards in terms of letting the really heavy artillery go (although a perfunctory shot by Hearns probably does more damage and leaves the ears ringing more than a loaded up, swung from the bootlaces haymaker by most other Welters who've ever lived!). He changed things up quite a lot when you compare how he approached Leonard to how he'd been approaching guys like Cuevas and Espada. Could argue that being up and bouncey on his toes for so long sapped his stamina, mind you.

Although it turned out being a clear enough and very impressive win for Hearns, you can see shades of the Leonard fight in the Benitez one, in some ways. Like Leonard, Benitez was tentative and weary of Tommy's power in the early stages, probably hoping for Hearns to lose his discipline and give him countering opportunities. Predictably, he fell behind pretty quickly just as Ray did and found that giving Hearns that much room to punch was going to leave him an impossible task, so he also switched it up in the second half of the fight, carrying it to Hearns a bit more and arguably shading the second half of the bout - he was more successful going towards the fearsome hitter and making him work at a higher pace.

Unfortunately for Benitez, he just didn't quite have the same chin, punching power or finishing instinct as Leonard to really turn those rounds in the bank in to a chance to get Hearns out of there, but it's interesting that again a switch to tactics, which might have seemed suicidal from the outset, ended up with the boxer having a better time of it against Tommy when they focussed less on the sweet science and tried to take matters in to their own hands with some extra aggression. Great win and superb showing from Tommy, but after trailing by a mile early on Benitez had pulled it back to make it a pretty competitive fight on my card by the end.
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Post by Coxy001 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:42 pm

Shane Mosley had blistering hand speed, yet he lost to the slower Forrest, Winky Wright & Cotto in his prime. Wish people would get off the speed train and stop paying so much attention to it. Having lots of speed and no chin isn't exactly going to make you a world beater. It's about the whole make up of a boxer that needs to be bought to light.

And please for christ sake please separate hand speed and foot speed/movement.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:46 pm

88Chris05 wrote:Would you say Hearns was faster than Leonard, Truss? Tommy was very quick, for sure, but Leonard was greased lightning. Comparable to Meldrick Taylor and Camacho when he was a young Welter.

Agree on the jab part, though. Hearns had a nightmare jab for anyone to try and deal with and it kept Leonard in check for a long time. Oddly enough, while Leonard is seen as one of boxing's more savvy fighters and Hearns' ring IQ is considered a little on the low side, you could argue that Tommy (or Manny Steward, if you like) came in to the fight initally with a much better gameplan than Ray. Leonard spent a long time circling on the outside where it was almost impossible for him to have much success and didn't / couldn't really change anything up until round six and seven when he started showing some of that out and out brawler mode which eventually won it for him.

Aside from staggering Leonard in the eleventh with that right cross, Hearns fought a pretty low-key fight by his standards in terms of letting the really heavy artillery go (although a perfunctory shot by Hearns probably does more damage and leaves the ears ringing more than a loaded up, swung from the bootlaces haymaker by most other Welters who've ever lived!). He changed things up quite a lot when you compare how he approached Leonard to how he'd been approaching guys like Cuevas and Espada. Could argue that being up and bouncey on his toes for so long sapped his stamina, mind you.

Although it turned out being a clear enough and very impressive win for Hearns, you can see shades of the Leonard fight in the Benitez one, in some ways. Like Leonard, Benitez was tentative and weary of Tommy's power in the early stages, probably hoping for Hearns to lose his discipline and give him countering opportunities. Predictably, he fell behind pretty quickly just as Ray did and found that giving Hearns that much room to punch was going to leave him an impossible task, so he also switched it up in the second half of the fight, carrying it to Hearns a bit more and arguably shading the second half of the bout - he was more successful going towards the fearsome hitter and making him work at a higher pace.

Unfortunately for Benitez, he just didn't quite have the same chin, punching power or finishing instinct as Leonard to really turn those rounds in the bank in to a chance to get Hearns out of there, but it's interesting that again a switch to tactics, which might have seemed suicidal from the outset, ended up with the boxer having a better time of it against Tommy when they focussed less on the sweet science and tried to take matters in to their own hands with some extra aggression. Great win and superb showing from Tommy, but after trailing by a mile early on Benitez had pulled it back to make it a pretty competitive fight on my card by the end.
He had the fastest jab I've ever seen on a fighter above 147...

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Post by Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake Wed 25 Feb 2015, 2:53 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:


Khan is quicker with a better jab...............For my money unless the Boxer with that advantage makes a big mistake he's pretty much odds on to win !!

Khan's number one flaw is his tendency to make a mistake. He's definitely making progress in that area and his last fight showed a more mature approach but I think whenever anyone watches him now they expect that lapse in concentration mistake or trying to brawl when he's hurt.

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