England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Go down

England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 5:52 pm

Well thankfully it's all over now - the absolute sheer embarassment that was this World Cup for England. A World Cup we did the following to prepare for;

Moved an Ashes series - thus directly or indirectly causing the downfall of the following key players - Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Graeme Swann, and of course our most successful coach of recent years Andy Flower.

Ok some might say fair enough - so long as you take the chance to prepare properly, did we prepare properly? Well lets have a think;

We firstly toured Sri Lanka - a place with conditions alien to the ones we'd be playing in in the World Cup. 
We sack the captain after the final game - even though it'd long reached the point he needed to go in ODI's, thus not giving the new captain time to embed himself before the tournament.

There were some positives in the Sri Lanka tour however - the two biggest being James Taylor at 3, and Chris Woakes with the new ball. So what do we do when the World Cup starts? Oh that's right we move Taylor to an unfamiliar position at 6 to accomodate a player in Gary Ballance who had played one game of cricket since September (not his fault) - basically putting him in an unfair position to fail.
We also take Woakes away from the new ball, to give it to the horribly out of form Stuart Broad. Baffling.

As for the games in the world cup itself. As already stated some bizarre selection issues - not only backed up in this most recent game by batting an opener at 3.

But the most alarming thing about this world cup is the performances. We made the same mistakes over and over again. Letting the game drift in the middle overs when batting, seemingly not recognising in this tournament 300 is merely the par score, sometimes even below it. Finally the bowling - far too short with the new ball, completely lacking any threat.

A sheer catalogue of ridiculous decisions, illogical selection - leading to poor performances by players bereft of confidence. In a World Cup group basically specifically designed to get the top teams through - we've managed to get knocked out. Excellent work.

Downton - Get yourself out of selection meetings, get yourself as far away from the media as possible and just worry about doing your job (whatever the heck it is)
Moores - Sorry but not cutting the mustard yet again. Lost 3 out of 4 series to sub continental sides at home this summer, been frankly embarrassed in the ODI stuff (9 wins from 27 games since he came, 2 of those were against Scotland ffs) and obsessed with ridiculous stats and data. Yes they can play a part, but they're not the deciding factor.

When Giles Clarke said last spring "England are not at some sort of a massive low ebb" we all laughed saying we were. Actually seems old Giles was right. It got much worse!
avatar
Good Golly I'm Olly

Posts : 45392
Join date : 2011-09-18
Age : 23
Location : Chris Woakes's wardrobe

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 6:32 pm

Can't really argue with any of that. As stated on the other thread, moving the ashes is about greed first and world cup preparation second.

The selections and decisions have been shocking. We need to give players like hales and even ballance a run, not chuck them in and expect them to perform

Ideal chance to start again anyway, its not like results can get any worse

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 6:52 pm

Olly wrote:

Moved an Ashes series - thus directly or indirectly causing the downfall of the following key players - Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Graeme Swann, and of course our most successful coach of recent years Andy Flower.

!
How come "the Moved Ashes Series" did not break Australia laughing
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by kingraf on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 7:31 pm

Because they won?

I agree though, easy to blame the Ashes. The reality is the ship was creaking. Prior and Swann had their injuries. KP was as he generally is, a pr!ck, had injury concerns in 2012 & 13, and couldn't buy a run. The Ashes probably didn't help, but it merely accelerated what was inevitable. The real strange thing is you decided to have the back to back Ashes instead of a 2014-15 one, which even if it ended badly, would have at least acclimatised you to Aussie conditions. Instead, to prevent burnout, you played seven ODI games in conditions which had no relevance.

I'm not really sure what Downton's job is either? Given the fact that a man ostensibly above him has reached the olive branch out to KP I can only assume he's either a link between players and admin, or a glorified spin doctor. Or he could be one those guys companies hire when "something has to be done", so they create a position and give it a rather ominous sounding title.

Feel a bit for Moores. Clearly doesn't have his best side out, and it's been less than a year. Not sure anybody could have done better. I'm generally not a fan of coaches at this level though, can't really imagine a coach is really helpful enough to be blamed when things go wrong. Doesn't select the squad, doesn't solely pick the XI, doesn't lead them out... It's a cushy job, but I'm really not sure it's relevant enough to be the cause of any of the problems. Like blaming a particularly incompetent cleaning staff for Northern Rock going bust.

As for captain... lol, Cook was dropped to soon. Still averaged 30 last few years, which Scotland knock excepted, would probably significantly dwarf what Ali has done in Australia, and he's only 3 years older. I've made no secret of the fact that I thought Cook was treated as the face of problems which went beyond him. Feel a bit for Morgan, Captaincy was a burden to bear. Not his fault he couldn't carry it. There are some very well paid suits who you'd think understand you can't make an underperforming player as your captain. It's thoughtless.
avatar
kingraf
raf
raf

Posts : 16122
Join date : 2012-06-06
Age : 24
Location : To you I am there. To me I am here.... is it possible that I'm everywhere?

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 8:42 pm

Yes Man Downtown already being quoted as saying Yes Man Moores will keep his job.

Where is the logic in any of this? Its englands most embarrassing world cup, which is some going considering how bad some other ones were.

The coach simply has to go as this. Yes, he deserves a bit longer as test coach, but Odis no chance

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 09 Mar 2015, 9:11 pm

kingraf wrote:Because they won?

I agree though, easy to blame the Ashes. The reality is the ship was creaking. Prior and Swann had their injuries. KP was as he generally is, a pr!ck, had injury concerns in 2012 & 13, and couldn't buy a run. The Ashes probably didn't help, but it merely accelerated what was inevitable. The real strange thing is you decided to have the back to back Ashes instead of a 2014-15 one, which even if it ended badly, would have at least acclimatised you to Aussie conditions. Instead, to prevent burnout, you played seven ODI games in conditions which had no relevance.

They have been here for their 5 games of the Tri Series which should have given them plenty of time to acclimatise... more so than 10 or so other sides involved in the tournament. Point taken about the irrelevant SL series played in different conditions to here but that should have at least hardened them up somewhat (playing against tough opposition in SL) and assisted in their preparation for an intense WC tournament.

They simply underperformed (against the stronger teams) and underestimated the so-called weaker teams. They should have beaten Scotland more comprehensively but even that match seemed to test their limits in the ODI format.

One could spend their whole time dissecting player selections, captaincy, coaching, preparation (those aspects certainly have weighed upon their performance) but to be fair - this team has some darn good players who are still developing as well as some more experienced ones who obviously felt the burden of expectations which proved to be a little too much in this WC.

There were simply too many fine lines between success and failure (wrt overall team performance and individual players' contributions)... and in this case they fell short (by just enough) to be in this current situation.

Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 48545
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 8:56 am

I liked this quote from Rob Key on Sky this morning and thought it belonged as well on this thread as any other:
''Test cricket is always more important in England but it is in Australia as well. I'm not sure that just because we put Test cricket above One Day cricket that we should be rubbish at One Day cricket.''

guildfordbat

Posts : 12481
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Pal Joey on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 9:04 am

guildfordbat wrote:I liked this quote from Rob Key on Sky this morning and thought it belonged as well on this thread as any other:
''Test cricket is always more important in England but it is in Australia as well. I'm not sure that just because we put Test cricket above One Day cricket that we should be rubbish at One Day cricket.''

Naturally so, Guildford. Like England, us Australians don't like to lose in either format.
I believe even our T20 side made some sort of a pact to "lift their pads" and do the right thing for themselves and the fans.
There have been some small positive steps in that direction too but it is a very competitive game... and the bar keeps being raised so to speak.

Pal Joey
PJ
PJ

Posts : 48545
Join date : 2011-01-27
Location : On the plains

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by jimbohammers on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 10:49 am

The whole tournament was a shambles by England. From team selection to 'tactics' (if we had any)

Time to say goodbye to Bell, Morgan, Anderson.

Start fresh with players like Roy, Vince, Rashid. Im sure we were saying this last year when we played back to back ashes so we could have 6 months to prepare for the World Cup Doh

I would like to see:

Hales
Ali
Taylor
Vince
Root
Roy
Buttler
Woakes

All in - then fill in the blanks. Rashid? Stokes?

Give players that have performed at County Level a chance. Rather than just picking the same old names from the test team

jimbohammers

Posts : 2343
Join date : 2011-05-04

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by msp83 on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 11:09 am

The Bigmouth has gone Down Town saying that Moores was the greatest thing to have happened to England cricket and that he should stay coach till iternity!!

msp83

Posts : 13589
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by msp83 on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 11:20 am

Don't think a lot is going to change there, they'll continue with the 'yes sir' culture, and look at player's family background over cricketing ability. Say OD cricket means nothing and that tests are everything before promptly getting blanked by Australia and then blame it all on t-20 or yet again, may be Kevin Pietersen!

msp83

Posts : 13589
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by msp83 on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 11:28 am

"With apologies to the 17th-century philosopher Thomas Hobbes, England's World Cup campaign was "nasty, brutish and as short as it could have been". Let's at least be grateful for that."

Good one from cricinfo's Alan Gardner

msp83

Posts : 13589
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by sportform on Tue 10 Mar 2015, 4:34 pm

I can only see this getting worse. All I keep hearing is we need an English Big Bash and franchises... Big mistake. Knee-jerk reactions get you nowhere. We have a get county set up, what we need is the right structure. We should be looking more towards MLB rather than the IPL if we want to rule world cricket.

Also the ECB need to start engaging again with the public. Get the Ashes/ test back on free tv, perhaps have live county games on free tv on a Sunday. During the 2005 Ashes parks were packed with kids playing cricket, local leagues grew. Since the ECB sold its soul to Sky participation numbers have fallen.
avatar
sportform

Posts : 1397
Join date : 2011-06-01

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by msp83 on Wed 11 Mar 2015, 6:49 pm

Downton is still talking. Moores is the best coach of his generation, and its all the player's fault, and you should not look for a scapegoat....... Of course he's absolutely the right person to talk about that last point in particular.
And he keeps repeating England side is in transition. But if you look at the side, Broad, Anderson, Bell and Morgan, all have played over hundred ODIs. And they've all failed. Its the relatively new faces, other than Ballance who have performed at least up to average standards.

msp83

Posts : 13589
Join date : 2011-05-30
Location : India

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Azzy on Wed 11 Mar 2015, 7:52 pm

Personally I don't care for 40 over or T20 cricket, either domestically or internationally. I'm only interested in 4/5 day cricket and so an improvement in the Test arena is what I want to see from England. For that to happen, we need the egos to depart. The likes of Broad, Prior, Swann, all the guys who forced KP out behind the scenes. We need to start afresh with Cook opening, as captain, and young players being brought in to develop. Cook, Root, Bell and Ballance would be the four cast-iron starters at the top of the order. So many talented players in county cricket, let's see some of them come up! No more Comptons, Morgans or Carberrys!

Azzy

Posts : 4585
Join date : 2014-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 5:14 am

Lack of an explosive batsman hurt England Relying on bits-and-pieces players, a lack variety in their bowling, and choosing Eoin Morgan as captain contributed to their early exit from the World Cup........RICKY PONTING
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 8:40 am

KP_fan wrote:Lack of an explosive batsman hurt England  Relying on bits-and-pieces players, a lack variety in their bowling, and choosing Eoin Morgan as captain contributed to their early exit from the World Cup........RICKY PONTING

Which bits and pieces players? Moeen Ali ..the explosive batsman?
The only other they took was Bopara, and he didnt play. Woakes a bits and pieces player? Possibly but then he was competing with Stokes who is probably more easily described as that..as it is both are full time bowling options at all levels domestically and internationally, and Woakes was selected as one of the top 4 seamers available. Previously theve had Yardy, Maschaeranas, Wright Bopara Collingwood and Woakes in a squad...thats a reliance on bits and pieces.
South Africa only play 4 proper bowlers, relying on Duminy ( the bits and pieces players)(( and whoever fancies a go at 7 on a given day. Jadeja could be described in that mould. And frankly half the Aussie team could. Whats Mathews if not a bits and pieces player? Corey Jane Anderson?
Its no more a reliance than the top teams have, the difference is Englands arent as good or producing as well.
Its also all weell and good pointing figures at the selection of Morgan as Captain after the fact, 6 months ago the internet and press was in meltdown demanding he replaced Cook. Its not like theres many other options, Broad or Root both of which carried their own risks...especiallyRoot who was finding his way back in after falling apart in Aus (make him captain for a major tournament where he previously went into meltdown?)

Englands big problem is their players arent very good and they lack any variety in their bowling which they couldnt easily pick their way out of, they simply dont have any left armers or legspinners good enough to warrant selection. Tredwell hardly represents variety when they already have two right arm orthodox spinners in the side. Mark Nicholas points to Rashid as the guy who shouldve gone in Tredwells place,, but what has he actually done in limited overs to justify that pick? His domestic record is pretty weak and previous caps disastrous.Had he gone then he would be on Pontings list of bits and pieces players.

I say the issues were the reliance on players producing what they have previously been capable of and a continued collective mental breakdown of the side. Morgan, Broad, Anderson, Finn have all performed to world class levels in the past and had bad tournaments. Relying on your best players to play well isnt that unusual in cricket.

Gooseberry

Posts : 3821
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 8:59 am

KP_fan wrote:Lack of an explosive batsman hurt England  Relying on bits-and-pieces players, a lack variety in their bowling, and choosing Eoin Morgan as captain contributed to their early exit from the World Cup........RICKY PONTING

Get over it. You are like a stuck record on KP. He wouldn't have made the difference, his form in ODIs was poor for a couple of years. He's become a much better player by being out of the side than he actually was latterly. It isn't 2005 anymore

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by kingraf on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 9:02 am

Matthews has long ago graduated from the bits and pieces class. He's now a genuine batsman who bowls the odd over.
avatar
kingraf
raf
raf

Posts : 16122
Join date : 2012-06-06
Age : 24
Location : To you I am there. To me I am here.... is it possible that I'm everywhere?

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 9:43 am

Azzy wrote:Personally I don't care for 40 over or T20 cricket, either domestically or internationally. I'm only interested in 4/5 day cricket and so an improvement in the Test arena is what I want to see from England. For that to happen, we need the egos to depart.

Fair enough for you personally, but why can't we be good at 2 or 3 disciplines? The Aussies smashed us 5-0 in the Ashes and with a farily different line up to their Test team smash us in ODIs and should go far in this World Cup. NZ and SA are both really strong in Tests and ODIs at the moment as well.

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Azzy on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 9:49 am

Oh yeah, they could be. That would take some doing though!

Azzy

Posts : 4585
Join date : 2014-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 10:03 am

Azzy wrote:Oh yeah, they could be. That would take some doing though!

If NZ can do it then we really should be able to. I wouldn't even like to guess how much the ECBs income vs Cricket NZ is, and that's before you even get into things like participation numbers.

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Azzy on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 10:11 am

But New Zealand doesn't have a media that exists solely to expose behind the scenes information. Not once have I ever read about dressing room issues for NZ, yet we read about it seemingly weekly over here and the KP debate still rages on. You have ex pros such as Swann, Nasser, Vaughny, Alec Stewart, Goochy, they all weigh in on stuff. You never see Chris Cairns ragging on NZ. The ECB is damned if they do something, damned if they don't, they get slaughtered for making brave choices, condemned for making stupid ones. I'd never want to be in a position of authority in that organisation, I can tell you.

Azzy

Posts : 4585
Join date : 2014-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 11:16 am

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Lack of an explosive batsman hurt England  Relying on bits-and-pieces players, a lack variety in their bowling, and choosing Eoin Morgan as captain contributed to their early exit from the World Cup........RICKY PONTING

Get over it. You are like a stuck record on KP. He wouldn't have made the difference, his form in ODIs was poor for a couple of years. He's become a much better player by being out of the side than he actually was latterly. It isn't 2005 anymore

Ha Ha...I am not Ricky Ponting...he wrote this.
So you think Ricky thinks Eng is missing KP as " the explosive batsman"

re: his comment on bits and pieces......to me Moeen, and Bopara are bits and pieces
Woakes is a Geniune allrounder and a very high quality one in my view
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 11:25 am

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Lack of an explosive batsman hurt England  Relying on bits-and-pieces players, a lack variety in their bowling, and choosing Eoin Morgan as captain contributed to their early exit from the World Cup........RICKY PONTING

Get over it. You are like a stuck record on KP. He wouldn't have made the difference, his form in ODIs was poor for a couple of years. He's become a much better player by being out of the side than he actually was latterly. It isn't 2005 anymore

Ha Ha...I am not Ricky Ponting...he wrote this.
So you think Ricky thinks Eng is missing KP as " the explosive batsman"

re: his comment on bits and pieces......to me Moeen, and Bopara are bits and pieces
Woakes is a Geniune allrounder and a very high quality one in my view

I can read between the lines as well as anyone, its pretty transparent why you would pick that quote from the many thousands that have been made since England's exit.



VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 11:30 am

Because that quote is on CI's home page In big and bold....and hence the most standout statement on this subject.
Not like I fished through dozens of quote and pulled out an obscure one from a small little read paper somewhere
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 11:41 am

So why didn't you post up the lead quotes from the CI home page on the previous couple of days? That's a rhetorcial question by the way, I know the answer thanks.

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 1:25 pm

VTR wrote:So why didn't you post up the lead quotes from the CI home page on the previous couple of days? .

on this subject what were the quotes I missed ?


anyway to the point made by Ponting...

I do think Moeen and Bopara fit in the category of Bits an Pieces

and KP is KP...but given that he wasn't around....had Eng thought a bit rationally to put their best aggressive batsman Butler at No.5 like most good teams so...
and used Hales bit more than they did....

then Ponting wouldn't have had the ground to make this observation

PS* Eng fans and establishment is a bit touchy about KP...even when he is not named Smile
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 3:50 pm

Its hardly an "over reliance" to have one bits and pieces player (who is an explosive specialist limited overs batsman) in your side is it? And one in the squad who they didnt use?

If Pontings blaming the failure of England solely on that its no wonder Warne has no respect for him.

Gooseberry

Posts : 3821
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by VTR on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 4:05 pm

KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:So why didn't you post up the lead quotes from the CI home page on the previous couple of days? .


PS* Eng fans and establishment is a bit touchy about KP...even when he is not named Smile

I'm not touchy about KP - he's one of my favourite ever players. But so were Graham Thorpe and Darren Gough and I don't really want them in the team anymore as they are not the future either.

To summarise, why people get sick of hearing about KP:

1) We were always likely to do badly in this World Cup - with or without him it was always going to be a write off, QFs, or lucky SFs at best, but certainly nowhere near winning it
2) His form was not good for the last couple of years in ODIs that he played. What is there to suggest he would have made much difference? Not his actual performances that's for sure
3) He is very unlikely to be around at the next World Cup. There's 4 years of planning now, let's try to do better at the next one, probably with a set of players that are all some way younger than 39

VTR

Posts : 3240
Join date : 2012-03-23
Location : Fine Leg

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Thu 12 Mar 2015, 4:19 pm

VTR wrote:
KP_fan wrote:
VTR wrote:So why didn't you post up the lead quotes from the CI home page on the previous couple of days? .


PS* Eng fans and establishment is a bit touchy about KP...even when he is not named Smile

I'm not touchy about KP - he's one of my favourite ever players. But so were Graham Thorpe and Darren Gough and I don't really want them in the team anymore as they are not the future either.

To summarise, why people get sick of hearing about KP:

1) We were always likely to do badly in this World Cup - with or without him it was always going to be a write off, QFs, or lucky SFs at best, but certainly nowhere near winning it
2) His form was not good for the last couple of years in ODIs that he played. What is there to suggest he would have made much difference? Not his actual performances that's for sure
3) He is very unlikely to be around at the next World Cup. There's 4 years of planning now, let's try to do better at the next one, probably with a set of players that are all some way younger than 39

My friend....I don't disagree with you Very Happy OK
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by robbo277 on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 3:09 pm

England are still lining up their power players in the lower order for anew assault in the last 10/15 when the reality is you need to be attacking throughout.

Boycott made a point about Ballance in that he plays down the order for Yorkshire so he can come out when the field is back and get going with singles immediately before teeing off.

I would go with a lineup of:

Hales
Ali
Stokes
Buttler
Root
Taylor
Morgan
Rashid
Woakes
Jordan
Finn? Gurney?

4 big hitters at the top. If they come off they can get us firing and put all the pressure on the bowlers.

3 middle order "touch" players who can work the ball around the field and manipulate the field more, but also capable of clearing the ropes.

3 lower order hitters who are capable of coming in with 5 overs to go and teeing off.

And a proper number 11 because every team needs one.

Bowling wise I'm worried about the lack of variety, but with Stokes and Ali in the top 4 you only need 4 more bowlers really. Rashid to turn it the other way, then Woakes and Jordan because they are the two guys from the current team worth persisting with. The last one I'm stuck. Gurney offers variety but if Finn could get back to being genuinely fast and nasty then he'd get the nod. Something tells me that neither are right for the role.

Whatever the team and game plan we decide to go with, we then have to stick with it over the summer. We may lose the first ODI by 200 runs, but the nature of the game now is that losses like that are more common, especially when the opposition will have a player like McCullum. I'd rather lose every other game by 200 and compete occasionally while we learn how to play modern ODI cricket than to lose every game by 100 except the odd one where the other team have a complete off day.

robbo277

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 3:36 pm

Robbo - are you leaving the captaincy with Morgan?

That's a genuine question and not a pop at your post. I accept that just because Morgan had a rubbish tournament doesn't automatically mean he's a rubbish player. However, I do feel you've been pretty generous in appearing to give him the ok to immediately carry on. I would like to get Roy in - that won't be any surprise to regulars, I'm a massive fan and have been for about five years. He seems to offer the necessary brand - I hope that's the right term; brand was only used to describe types of washing powders in my early years! Smile

Of others you name, Rashid and Gurney would certainly provide greater variety but variation alone is not enough. They need to be of sufficient quality as well and I'm not convinced either are. I note you also are not fully convinced by Gurney's claims. Thank you at least for not suggesting Mills!

guildfordbat

Posts : 12481
Join date : 2011-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by robbo277 on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 5:15 pm

I don't watch masses and masses for county cricket, so I'm prepared to be pleasantly surprised when 4 new faces burst into the team and take the world by storm, but I would be looking at that kind of shape to the team.

Whether Rashid and Gurney are good enough is indeed a pertinent question, but then I guess it would depend on whether there is anyone who is a better shout in the county game. What the selectors need to do is pick their guys and back them, not start a merry-go-round every time one of the bowlers gets taken apart by a McCullum, a Warner or an ABDV.

Morgan didn't have the best time of it, but he got parachuted in without having a chance to really stamp his mark on the team. I think he was a little overwhelmed by the size of the task facing him and may have gone into his shell and gone into damage limitation mode. Even with our backwards tactics, we should have got over the line against Bangladesh and made the quarters, which was the minimum requirement.

What we need now is strong leadership. If we say it's going to be Morgan he gets both one day teams until at least the T20 world cup, use similar squads in both so the players get more international exposure and really back a core group of 15/16 to get us to the next level.

robbo277

Posts : 3370
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 30
Location : Brighton, England

https://twitter.com/#!/robbo277

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Duty281 on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 5:16 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/31873621

No regrets? Given it everything?

This man should be sacked on the spot for such idiotic remarks!

Duty281

Posts : 18045
Join date : 2011-06-06
Age : 23
Location : Not having Chance on here

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Gooseberry on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 6:16 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Robbo - are you leaving the captaincy with Morgan?

That's a genuine question and not a pop at your post. I accept that just because Morgan had a rubbish tournament doesn't automatically mean he's a rubbish player. However, I do feel you've been pretty generous in appearing to give him the ok to immediately carry on. I would like to get Roy in - that won't be any surprise to regulars, I'm a massive fan and have been for about five years. He seems to offer the necessary brand - I hope that's the right term; brand was only used to describe types of washing powders in my early years! Smile

Of others you name, Rashid and Gurney would certainly provide greater variety but variation alone is not enough. They need to be of sufficient quality as well and I'm not convinced either are. I note you also are not fully convinced by Gurney's claims. Thank you at least for not suggesting Mills!


Morgans bad form goes back well before he was captain, id like to think he has to earn his spot in the side before they decide on  the long term captaincy by performing at county level. Is the season structured in such a way to make that possible?

Agree with the points on variety for varieties sake. Gurney has been given chances and not exactly impressed, otherwise he wouldve been in the squad...England have long been searching for a left armer. Picking a spinner at all has been problematic for them balancing the desire to pick 4  who are genuinely the best available and just one "bits and pieces" player. 
Rashid is back in the frame apparently, again he needs to deliver at the start of the season to justify that place. 

Chucking it out there Parry did OK in the brief opportunity he was given, and OK for the Lions. He could end up back in the picture if they are serious about finding some variety ...but as always guys like Borthwick and Rashid will get preference on the grounds they bat at 7 or 8. Or Fatel. Again we end up with the balance between picking purely on who is the best bowler, how you balance up the batting, and getting some variety in the side. Despite Pontings criticisms England have actually resisted the temptation to pack the side with part timers like they used to, and the results have been even worse.

The best bowler on  the Lions tour was probably Brooks.
Then end up with 4 mediocre right arm seamers and and another player pretending to be a spinner.

Gooseberry

Posts : 3821
Join date : 2015-02-11

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Azzy on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 6:25 pm

Morgan is the worst England captain in any format I've seen in my lifetime. How on earth the selectors thought he even merited a place in the team was beyond me. Get rid now!

Azzy

Posts : 4585
Join date : 2014-04-07

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 7:28 pm

Duty281 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/31873621

No regrets? Given it everything?

This man should be sacked on the spot for such idiotic remarks!

He gave it everything is what he says....and I think he genuinely means it.

He made a remark soon after or maybe just before he was made captain.......that Eng are lagging behind in limited over formats and increasingly so...
and should be exposed more and more to top level leagues.

He got it absolutely right......and if people were to read and listen outside ( non English) observers....
its not about juggling squads of 15 or playing 11s or batting orders.....

But rather English cricket( means players, List A structures , strategies , mentality and coaches) are archaic......living in the previous century...

there is no easy solution.....no quick fix....and even a slow fix is when English cricket realizes the part in bold
avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by JDizzle on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 7:51 pm

I think that's a little unfair KPF. I don't know how much English domestic List A stuff you saw this summer, but there were some very good quality knocks. James Taylor made a 50 ball 100 against Middlesex at Lords, whilst Alex Hales had made 141 off 96 too. And Sam Billings made 135 off 58 balls against Somerset this summer too! Whilst we are behind the curve, obviously so, I genuinely believe that at domestic levels we are going the right direction. English T20 started in 2003 and we are seeing the first real T20 generation of English cricketers come through at the moment. And hopefully this pool will get bigger with time.

I fully agree with the comments about menatlity and strategies though. Particularly at International level. Think that is where we are furthest behind IMO.

JDizzle

Posts : 4692
Join date : 2011-03-11

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by KP_fan on Fri 13 Mar 2015, 7:58 pm

JDizzle wrote:I think that's a little unfair KPF. I don't know how much English domestic List A stuff you saw this summer, but there were some very good quality knocks. James Taylor made a 50 ball 100 against Middlesex at Lords, whilst Alex Hales had made 141 off 96 too. And Sam Billings made 135 off 58 balls against Somerset this summer too! Whilst we are behind the curve, obviously so, I genuinely believe that at domestic levels we are going the right direction. English T20 started in 2003 and we are seeing the first real T20 generation of English cricketers come through at the moment. And hopefully this pool will get bigger with time.

I fully agree with the comments about menatlity and strategies though. Particularly at International level. Think that is where we are furthest behind IMO.  

I didn't question or even doubt the cricketing talent.
They just don't know how to play the modern limited over game as it's played by the rest in 2015.

And the only way to learn the ways of the contemporary era is by participating in top leagues immediately , with full intensity, enthusiasm with the support of the ECB. ( playing in leagues should not be a patriotism test not making money scorned or grudged).

Until they form their own top level league...they sure can afford such a league more than BD and Lanka and WI.


avatar
KP_fan

Posts : 6861
Join date : 2012-07-27

Back to top Go down

Re: England Cricket - World Cup debacle

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum