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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 19 Mar - 4:08

First topic message reminder :

Must confess until I get home I can't really comment fully..............I'll have a closer look then.....

Good or Bad ??..................You think it'll resonate .......

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Mar - 3:09

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Surely voting for the guys behind the wheel of Labour's car crash is the sh1ttest option on the table? I'd prefer the SNP to those 2 clowns.

How many more people are using food banks now ??

Food banks are a joke, and symptomatic of something entirely different from what the Left likes to crow about.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 20 Mar - 3:11

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Don't all Key Stage one kids get free lunches at school?

Have a look at the amount of food they serve up, then make sure you send your kids with a little snack as well. If you got kids in high school, send em to school with a proper packed lunch, you'll probably save a couple of pounds a day and they'll actually have eaten a decent portion of food. If sodexo services are the ones providing food to your schools, put a gun to the headmasters head and demand he change caterer.

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Post by Ent on Fri 20 Mar - 3:13

TopHat24/7 wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Always thought a simple but effective policy would be to charge 18-65 (retirement) year old £15 for a visit to the GP. Would cut out time wasters (people there with a cold), lessen strain on GP's so they can spend more time on people who need it, and provide some extra wonga for the coffers

Sod lessening the strain on GPs. Their contract, which Labour bent over for, is a massive joke and has totally f*cked up the NHS, A&E in particular.

Do like the French system of paying 30% for your treatment, and then claiming back (fairly painlessly, I understand) from the goverment up to the full 30%, depending on your circumstances.  GP clinics and A&E's are full of timewasters, something needs to be sorted out as it's a mess right now.

What do you mean by time wasters? I work in the NHS and the majority of unnecessary attendances are from the stupid/ignorant who don't realise they should go somewhere else (but do need medical advice) and the mentally ill. I'd go as far to say most attendances are genuine and the problem is actually the fact you can't just turf out inappropriate attendees quickly due to medico legal fears.

The gp contract is quite lucrative but to blame all the NHS' current ills on it just shows a shocking ignorance of healthcare and the changes over the last 15 years.

Claiming back anything is incredibly painful, ever had your pay incorrect or paid too much tax, it's a nightmare.

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Post by Rowley on Fri 20 Mar - 3:26

Everyone who fails to meet up to Tophat's exacting but arbitrary standards is a time waster, people who use the NHS without his approval, people who do degrees he does not consider worth while and so on. To be honest I see no hope for Britain until top hat is designated sole artiber of what people are and are not allowed to do.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 20 Mar - 3:35

Rowley wrote:Everyone who fails to meet up to Tophat's exacting but arbitrary standards is a time waster, people who use the NHS without his approval, people who do degrees he does not consider worth while and so on. To be honest I see no hope for Britain until top hat is designated sole artiber of what people are and are not allowed to do.

Aye, I've got a lot of time for him but he's made his way up without help so he turns his nose up at other people struggling to do the same.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 20 Mar - 3:36

To be fair to my kids school, as much as i've complained about their healthy eating initiative (which is bollox), they buy cheaper food so they can give bigger portions so that the poorer kids get a good filling.

The NHS is a really really tough subject as you can't really turn people away because you think they don't need a doctor. I would try something along the lines of charging people who are there due to drink etc but then again a lot of that (misuse) is also the poorest of our society that wouldnt' be able to afford it so we'd end up paying for it anyway. It's a real headscratcher.

Oh and Food banks are a necessity to some people, the cons etc can try and spin it how they want but people don't want to have to use them, they're forced too.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Mar - 4:02

Ent wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:Always thought a simple but effective policy would be to charge 18-65 (retirement) year old £15 for a visit to the GP. Would cut out time wasters (people there with a cold), lessen strain on GP's so they can spend more time on people who need it, and provide some extra wonga for the coffers

Sod lessening the strain on GPs. Their contract, which Labour bent over for, is a massive joke and has totally f*cked up the NHS, A&E in particular.

Do like the French system of paying 30% for your treatment, and then claiming back (fairly painlessly, I understand) from the goverment up to the full 30%, depending on your circumstances.  GP clinics and A&E's are full of timewasters, something needs to be sorted out as it's a mess right now.

What do you mean by time wasters? I work in the NHS and the majority of unnecessary attendances are from the stupid/ignorant who don't realise they should go somewhere else (but do need medical advice) and the mentally ill. I'd go as far to say most attendances are genuine and the problem is actually the fact you can't just turf out inappropriate attendees quickly due to medico legal fears.

The gp contract is quite lucrative but to blame all the NHS' current ills on it just shows a shocking ignorance of healthcare and the changes over the last 15 years.

Claiming back anything is incredibly painful, ever had your pay incorrect or paid too much tax, it's a nightmare.

Erm, yes, that's exactly what I'm getting at. People that shouldn't be filling up A&E because they shouldn't be there - ergo, timewasting.

Blaming ALL the NHS's ills on the GP contract was wrong, but it's massive determining factor in the A&E mess - nobody can get an appointment so people just turn up to A&E for things that aren't an 'A' or and 'E'.

The other point I forgot to mention about France (I'm not talking about how easy HMRC are to deal with, but specifically that the French system DOES seem to work well) is that because of this the French make major use of their pharmacists. You go to a pharmacist there and it isn't just someone sat behind a counter processing prescriptions, they actually come up and talk to you and talk through what your issue(s) is(are) and recommend appropriate treatment - like a lightweight GP. It works great.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Mar - 4:06

Derbymanc wrote:Oh and Food banks are a necessity to some people, the cons etc can try and spin it how they want but people don't want to have to use them, they're forced too.

Means test them and watch them disappear.

People use them because they're there, not because they're needed as an absolute last resort.

They're an indicator of growing irresponsibility and deterioration in self-reliance. Easier to take handouts that pull yourself up by your bootstaps.

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 20 Mar - 4:14

I can only go off personal experience Toppy but my stepson used them a few times now, and out of necessity (IE he didn't have a bean to his name) whilst undoubtly there'll be people that abuse them but I'd bet it's a minority.

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Post by wheelchair1991 on Fri 20 Mar - 4:14

I find the demonization of the poor agenda which is going on at the moment very depressing in the national electoral debate

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 20 Mar - 4:16

Everybody likes easy targets

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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 20 Mar - 22:28

I was going to do that weekly shop last night but had a few beers instead. I will do it by monday though, it is a bit more work than I thought....

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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 20 Mar - 22:34

Ha ha, can't fault you Sean I'll be doing the same tonight (having a beer not sorting shopping.)


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Post by Derbymanc on Fri 20 Mar - 22:35

Ha ha, can't fault you Sean I'll be doing the same tonight (having a beer not sorting shopping.)

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Mar - 22:47

ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Mar - 22:47

ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 21 Mar - 0:11

Except who needs the help in society more Toppy?

Whilst i'm of the belief that the benefits system needs a big shaping up to try and sort some of the mess we're in. What seems to be happening is the villification of the poorest in the UK. The wealthy can afford it if you take 50 quid off them a week, the poorest cannot.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 21 Mar - 0:42

TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.


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Post by Guest on Sat 21 Mar - 0:52

ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.

That made me shed a tear

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 21 Mar - 0:55

DAVE667 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.

That made me shed a tear

I hope that's a response to pakistans exit from the world cup otherwise you've emasculated yourself.

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Post by Guest on Sat 21 Mar - 0:58

ShahenshahG wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.

That made me shed a tear

I hope that's a response to pakistans exit from the world cup otherwise you've emasculated yourself.
Sorry, I didn't clarify, it was from my jap's eye (poetry......)

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 21 Mar - 1:14

Derbymanc wrote:Mine are 7 Dolph, up to 5 they get them and of course if your on benefits or under an earning threshold.


Just been informed by the missus as well that for anyone that's interested it would be 22 quid a week for the pair of them.

You should move down my way, lad, all the key stage one kids get free hot dinners.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat 21 Mar - 1:14

I use food banks all the time.

Cheaper than Aldi and Lidl and usually some handy donations from people that shop at Sainsburys and Waitrose. The lack of booze is a problem, but then the amount I save on shopping means I can go to town on expensive craft beers at my local upmarket independent off-licence.

Absolutely crazy that some liberals want to scrap food banks.

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Post by superflyweight on Sat 21 Mar - 1:16

ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.


Well said Shah. Stick that up your b0ll0cks, Toppy.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 21 Mar - 1:17

I don't vote because the political system is so flawed. The fact people continue to support parties for years on end, the way the media dictate public opinion and the amount of attention paid to whether a leader is publicly charismatic which by all means is so very unimportant just kinda stinks.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 21 Mar - 1:17

Can we also try not to get personal please

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Post by Guest on Sat 21 Mar - 1:18

superflyweight wrote:I use food banks all the time.  

Cheaper than Aldi and Lidl and usually some handy donations from people that shop at Sainsburys and Waitrose.  The lack of booze is a problem, but then the amount I save on shopping means I can go to town on expensive craft beers at my local upmarket independent off-licence.  

Absolutely crazy that some liberals want to scrap food banks.  
Agreed, we should be forced to pay MORE tax so that Super doesn't even have to get of his ar$e and can have it delivered to his door by a Goblin King riding a Unicorn

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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 21 Mar - 1:21

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Mine are 7 Dolph, up to 5 they get them and of course if your on benefits or under an earning threshold.


Just been informed by the missus as well that for anyone that's interested it would be 22 quid a week for the pair of them.

You should move down my way, lad, all the key stage one kids get free hot dinners.

To be honest Dolph if it's anything like the stuff I get served at work then i'd rather make it myself Laugh

Seriously Dolph though, how come it's all free near you then? is it a school initiative or a government one?

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Post by Ent on Sat 21 Mar - 1:22

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I don't vote because the political system is so flawed. The fact people continue to support parties for years on end, the way the media dictate public opinion and the amount of attention paid to whether a leader is publicly charismatic which by all means is so very unimportant just kinda stinks.

Whilst it is Poopie the threat of people voting for te opposition and politicians losing their job/position is the only thing that makes them do any sort of work or not conpletely screw us over.

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Post by Ent on Sat 21 Mar - 1:24

Derbymanc wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:Mine are 7 Dolph, up to 5 they get them and of course if your on benefits or under an earning threshold.


Just been informed by the missus as well that for anyone that's interested it would be 22 quid a week for the pair of them.

You should move down my way, lad, all the key stage one kids get free hot dinners.

To be honest Dolph if it's anything like the stuff I get served at work then i'd rather make it myself Laugh

Seriously Dolph though, how come  it's all free near you then? is it a school initiative or a government one?

Became a national initiative this school year, loads of stuff on the radio at the time about schools affording it and being able to facilitate it iirc.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Sat 21 Mar - 1:24

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Can we also try not to get personal please

F*ck off, loser.

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by Derbymanc on Sat 21 Mar - 1:28

I've got no idea what means to be honest Dolph, Good on them though, don't begrudge anyone getting a decent meal for nowt from school, I do begrudge being told what I can put in my kids packed lunch though steam steam

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Sat 21 Mar - 2:03

ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.


An impassioned retort, Shah, and one I won't take any offense too. See your point re counter etc and how it actually holds society back. Problem is, reality is, the vilification goes both ways but both side consider themselves innocent/the aggrieved party. Bit like the battle between cyclists and motorists. Nobody should be made to feel guilty because of their own success (when not achieved by treading on others).

I've no interest in closing doors to anyone. But there's a difference between providing a framework so people can help themselves (something I support) and just throwing money at people and allowing them to cash in on their own irresponsibility and bad decision making. I think a % of food bank users are genuine, but that a large % could also find alternatives if their wasn't the easy option laid out there for them. For starters, strip out anyone that smokes, for example. You can't spend £20-50 a week on a smoke/drink/drug habit and then hold yourself out as some kind of woeful case of impoverishment that cannot rely on anything but the goodwill and handouts of others.

Mama Jack (I dislike her as a Guardianista, but here she has a point) feeds families of four healthily for a fiver. How many people that use foodbanks have followed her recipes? The longer hours you work, the harder this is to do, but I'd confidently speculate that many of the food bank users aren't exactly working 50-80 hour weeks.

People make out like these benefits TV programmes vilify and mis-represent, but I spent the best part of 9 months valuing affordable (read: social/council) housing and they're seriously bloody accurate to what I saw & experienced.

This country is as rotten at the bottom as it is at the top, and it's those of us in the middle that are suffering the burden.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 21 Mar - 3:28

DAVE667 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.

That made me shed a tear

Now that is rebuttal.......

Have a good weekend fellas..

TRUSSMAN66

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 21 Mar - 5:23

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Can we also try not to get personal please

F*ck off, loser.

I swear to god I'll bum you again, Tino, and I won't even kiss you goodnight if you carry on like this

Dolphin Ziggler
Dolphin

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Post by ShahenshahG on Sat 21 Mar - 6:01

TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Everybody likes easy targets

Like anyone who's not impoverished (or pertaining to be). Reverse snobbery is as much a plague in this country as the original kind.

Only for you and others of your ilk either side of the divide. Youre a counterf*ckwit to f*ckwits on the left. But that still makes you a f*ckwit. You've chosen a side and now you'll stick to it its this sort of ideological nonsense either side of the political spectrum that means this country cannot make progress. You've made it up the hard way as you've said numerous times before but you're making every effort to close that opportunity to others. Any slight suggestion of offering people a hand and you're on it like a dog with a bone. Repetitively parroting the thatcher doctrine of spite. Your only saving grace is that  you're not a complete imbecile like champagne who can't tell his arse from his elbow. it baffles me when people get so rabid defending their parties when their parties would urine on them if they could get a vote out of it.


An impassioned retort, Shah, and one I won't take any offense too.  See your point re counter etc and how it actually holds society back.  Problem is, reality is, the vilification goes both ways but both side consider themselves innocent/the aggrieved party.  Bit like the battle between cyclists and motorists.  Nobody should be made to feel guilty because of their own success (when not achieved by treading on others).

I've no interest in closing doors to anyone.  But there's a difference between providing a framework so people can help themselves (something I support) and just throwing money at people and allowing them to cash in on their own irresponsibility and bad decision making. I think a % of food bank users are genuine, but that a large % could also find alternatives if their wasn't the easy option laid out there for them.  For starters, strip out anyone that smokes, for example.  You can't spend £20-50 a week on a smoke/drink/drug habit and then hold yourself out as some kind of woeful case of impoverishment that cannot rely on anything but the goodwill and handouts of others.

Mama Jack (I dislike her as a Guardianista, but here she has a point) feeds families of four healthily for a fiver.  How many people that use foodbanks have followed her recipes? The longer hours you work, the harder this is to do, but I'd confidently speculate that many of the food bank users aren't exactly working 50-80 hour weeks.

People make out like these benefits TV programmes vilify and mis-represent, but I spent the best part of 9 months valuing affordable (read: social/council) housing and they're seriously bloody accurate to what I saw & experienced.


This country is as rotten at the bottom as it is at the top, and it's those of us in the middle that are suffering the burden.


Yet I would rather some boozy bastard benefited from the food bank if it meant someone in genuine need received the necessities, this is where we differ. Making them means tested just makes it more difficult and soul destroying for those in genuine need. For the people youve described, will be eventually reduced from the significant minority it is to a genuine minority over their lifetime if the government ever gets its finger out of its arse. But the fact is these people aren't poor, they are frauds and if you treat all the poor as you would thieves and frauds you're going to make any problem grow. This is what wheelchair means by the demonisation of the poor. You'd make life difficult for them if it punished these thieves and this is what I meant by you stopping anyone else working their way up.

Poor people do tend to have some problems largely of their own making and problems that are caused by the society they live in with each source exacerbating the problem caused by the other. But I'd first fix or alleviate the problems around them first holding them back then encourage them to work their way up whereas you think you can do this by driving out all the frauds which should then leave all the genuinely needy people wrapped in a tattered shawl and signposted 'genuinely needy person here who doesnt smoke, doesnt drink, doesnt have sky tv, doesnt have 50 kids, and worked for 20 years before being reduced to this state' enough money to look after. It can't be done that way, it'll never work so please avoid lumping them in the same group and offering pithy words saying you're only talking about the ones who don't have genuine needs because regardless of your words - the sufferers will be the genuine poor.

Fact is you've harped on about legislation and how it punishes the law abiding public and creates barriers for business etc etc creating more problems than it solves yet you would have the government use legislation to fix a deeply rooted problem of inequality and fraud. This is not a bad thing if you treat them as seperate issues but by lumping them together you create more problems than you solve. Deeper inequality, crime, resentment and so forth. Criminals will find another way around legislation and its only the law abiding grafting poor who will get caught up in it.  

Also, I apologise for calling you a F*ckwit, you might be a fat slug of a corporate slut but you aren't a f*ckwit.

ShahenshahG

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