RC Toulon v Leinster Rugby, 19 April

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RC Toulon v Leinster Rugby
Sunday 19 April 2015
KO 16:15
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille

Referee: Wayne Barnes

Live on France 2 / beIN / Sky Sports

Form:

RC Toulon
5/4/15 - Toulon 32 - 18 Wasps
24/1/15 - Scarlets 3 - 26 Toulon
17/1/15 - Toulon 60 - 22 Ulster

Leinster Rugby
4/4/15 - Leinster 18 - 15 Bath
24/1/15 - Wasps 20 - 20 Leinster
17/1/15 - Leinster 50 - 8 Castres

Teams:

RC Toulon
Halfpenny; D Armitage, M Bastareaud, Gitea, Habana; Michalak, Tillous-Borde; Chiocci, Guirado, Hayman (capt); Botha, Williams; Smith, Fernandez Lobbe, Masoe.

Replacements: Orioli, Menini, Chilachava, S Armitage, Mitchell, Wulf, Claassens, Suta

Leinster Rugby
R Kearney; McFadden, Te'o, Madigan, Fitzgerald; Gopperth, Boss; Healy, Cronin, Ross, Toner, M McCarthy, J Murphy, O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: Strauss, J McGrath, Moore, Marshall, D Ryan, Reddan, G D'Arcy, Kirchner.

There is some truth in that yappsnap. But there is also an issue with the coach. Irish teams respond very well to coaching detail and structure. Once the gameplan looks unclear Irish sides always decline quite dramatically. Like Ireland losing to Italy. Or Leinster losing at home to the Dragons. Both signs of teams losing the plot.

On the game, I don't like the way this is being spun in the Irish media as a heroic defeat. Now I'm Irish, I do love me heroic defeats. But that was a poor Toulon performance.

FecklessRogue wrote:On the game, I don't like the way this is being spun in the Irish media as a heroic defeat. Now I'm Irish, I do love me heroic defeats. But that was a poor Toulon performance.

Yeah it was really a below par showing by Toulon, but thats not uncommon in semi-finals.

FecklessRogue wrote:On the game, I don't like the way this is being spun in the Irish media as a heroic defeat. Now I'm Irish, I do love me heroic defeats. But that was a poor Toulon performance.

Leinster turned up for this game, unlike last year. They deserve credit for that improvement.

It was a poor Toulon performance because Leinster made them look poor. The conditions were not good, and that didn't suit either team. The Leinster forwards were excellent and that is some achievement against a very powerful Toulon pack.

FecklessRogue wrote:There is some truth in that yappsnap. But there is also an issue with the coach. Irish teams respond very well to coaching detail and structure. Once the gameplan looks unclear Irish sides always decline quite dramatically. Like Ireland losing to Italy. Or Leinster losing at home to the Dragons. Both signs of teams losing the plot.

That seems to be a problem with Leinster - they need a control freak to get the best out of them. None of the other Irish provinces have that problem. Eddie O'Sullivan would be a good coach for them.

was also a bar of soap in the first half. never going to make for good viewing. thank f the ball and turf dried out a bit as the second half progressed.

replying to gooner earlier. macfadden clearly took habana out in the air in the first half. yellow would have been easy to justify. cant remember which saffer got sent off against ireland, was it vermeulen? but that was for much much less contact, and kearney made a meal of the landing and still landed on his feet.

feels to me like refs bottle these big calls in semi finals and finals. they prefer to give yellows for repeated infringements rather than the bigger isolated infringements which are actual foul play as defined in the laws. understandable, but frustrating given how stringent they can be in pool games. just ask ulsterfans.

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

Matt O'Connor has been a disaster for Leinster, because he has not offered any hope. He has not introduced anything for his sponsors to cling onto, other than preside over a gradual decline. If he is a realistic coach and doesn't have the players to compete this year then he needed to take a pragmatic view and settle for rebuilding from a PRO12 playoff platform. His focus should have been on the Dragons game rather than the Toulon one. That was a spectacular mis-calculation on his part and will undoubtedly heap pressure on his tenure as two semi-finals was the absolute minimum return for him this season.

There have been lots of mitigating factors, but the most obvious one is the loss of Jonno Gibbs and that has been a coaching deficit that MOC hasn't been able to surmount. MOC's only saving grace is that the RWC may save him for next season if Leinster haven't anyone else already lined up.

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

i agree with yappy. i really dont understand how all this is MOC's fault. Do players not have a mind of their own? MOC can do precisely NOTHING once the whistle starts the game. If something isnt working, or is being neutralised, its down to the team leaders on the pitch to adjust. Sexton, with his experience of different systems and players in France, is fantastic at this. Gopperth is pretty good too. Why doesnt anyone else step up in the Leinster team?

You dont hear any english or french sides blaming their coaches for the fortunes of their teams. The key word is "team". not coach.

http://en.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2014-15/rugby/story/250751.html

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/29/nigel-davies-gloucester-sacking-director-of-rugby

French and English sides don't blame their coaches - they just sack them.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

Assuming Leinster actually are worth their place as 5th in the pro 12, do you think MOC is the man to take them forward? He hasn't taken the team anywhere, and obviously isn't bothered with the academy/younger fellas who he doesn't rate. Mcfadden can be a good club player, he was always part of Schmidt's teams. Fitz is clearly good. I don't like Kearney either at present. Seems to think he's better than he is.

Regardless, we have international experience throughout the team, not just in the pack. We saw that Madigan at 10 can work when Schmidt was at the helm. You may be right that Leinster's halfbacks are poor at present, but for god's sake they could at least plan to do something! The amount of unchased kicks on top of that shows they're not communicating properly. The fact that Gopperth has beaten the most players in the Pro 12 says it all - we don't plan to go past 10.

people get sacked everywhere. for lots of reasons. players win matches not coaches. maybe that explains irelands failure to deliver on the big stage at RWC. because when they find themselves in unknown territory, the players have no idea what to do. they are literally unable to adapt, midgame, to a situation that has not been pre-scripted.

The Great Aukster wrote:http://en.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2014-15/rugby/story/250751.html

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/29/nigel-davies-gloucester-sacking-director-of-rugby

French and English sides don't blame their coaches - they just sack them.

This is a fine example of the hysteria about MOC.

Slightly different circumstances - Leinster just lost in a Euro Semi Final away in France to the 2 times champions.

The other teams were close to relegation in their league.

Sin é wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:http://en.espn.co.uk/france-top-14-2014-15/rugby/story/250751.html

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jul/29/nigel-davies-gloucester-sacking-director-of-rugby

French and English sides don't blame their coaches - they just sack them.

This is a fine example of the hysteria about MOC.

Slightly different circumstances - Leinster just lost in a Euro Semi Final away in France to the 2 times champions.

The other teams were close to relegation in their league.

agree sin e

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

Assuming Leinster actually are worth their place as 5th in the pro 12, do you think MOC is the man to take them forward? He hasn't taken the team anywhere, and obviously isn't bothered with the academy/younger fellas who he doesn't rate. Mcfadden can be a good club player, he was always part of Schmidt's teams. Fitz is clearly good. I don't like Kearney either at present. Seems to think he's better than he is.

Regardless, we have international experience throughout the team, not just in the pack. We saw that Madigan at 10 can work when Schmidt was at the helm. You may be right that Leinster's halfbacks are poor at present, but for god's sake they could at least plan to do something! The amount of unchased kicks on top of that shows they're not communicating properly. The fact that Gopperth has beaten the most players in the Pro 12 says it all - we don't plan to go past 10.

I think Leinster are missing a cutting edge in their backs. They have no prolific try scorers for instance - McFadden is probably their best back for try scoring and he is on the fringes of the international team because of his versatility and his commitment. I think Fitz would be a better centre than he is a winger. He just doesn't score enough tries. I don't think Madigan is a centre either, but he is flawed as a 10. He might be ok with someone like BOD outside him. The Leinster wings are just not as good as the likes of Tommy Bowe, Trimble & Zebo in the kick and chase. Bowe and Zebo are exceptionally good at the kick and chase.

I can't think of a coach who I think would suit Leinster (other than Eddie O'Sullivan). They just seem to need this micro management.

quinsforever wrote:i agree with yappy. i really dont understand how all this is MOC's fault. Do players not have a mind of their own? MOC can do precisely NOTHING once the whistle starts the game. If something isnt working, or is being neutralised, its down to the team leaders on the pitch to adjust. Sexton, with his experience of different systems and players in France, is fantastic at this. Gopperth is pretty good too. Why doesnt anyone else step up in the Leinster team?

You dont hear any english or french sides blaming their coaches for the fortunes of their teams. The key word is "team". not coach.

The whole 'the coach has no control once the whistle goes' is not accurate in my opinion. He may not be on the pitch, but rugby is a game of strategy - which is only intensifying as it becomes more professionalised. A coach is extremely important these days. We saw how tight defences have gotten, because of coaching. Similarly, you need a good attack coach to break them (MOC's area of expertise). Relying on single players to do the business just won't work. By their own admission, Leinster have been trying to 'play whats in front of them' under MOC. I just can't see how that can work in the modern game. We're not Fiji. Against good teams, after about 5 phases Leinster seam lose shape and panic. Thats a coaching issue.

Futhermore, MOC has been giving out to the Irish media about the IRFU's player resting for a while now. Last week, Luke Fitz said MOC's gameplan requires a constant group of players. Leinster will never have that, and after 2 years MOC doesn't seem willing to adjust. It's really quite clear that he's just not the right fit for this team.

It's all about managing expectations Sin. The Pro12 doesn't have relegation, so not winning something is just as much failure as being nearly relegated.

It understandable that the French and English teams are ruthless with their coaches considering the high stakes they have to operate under. It can be no surprise that if they don't perform, then the writing must be on the wall? MOC seems a very personable fellow but unfortunately there is little room for sentiment in elite rugby.

well either the coach needs to be replaced by someone who is happy for his players not to think for themselves, and cater to every eventuality in the gameplan

or the players need to start thinking for themselves

like england did at the 2007 RWC. effectively sidelined Ashton mid-tournament and the players took things into their own hands. could a Leinster ever do that?

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

Assuming Leinster actually are worth their place as 5th in the pro 12, do you think MOC is the man to take them forward? He hasn't taken the team anywhere, and obviously isn't bothered with the academy/younger fellas who he doesn't rate. Mcfadden can be a good club player, he was always part of Schmidt's teams. Fitz is clearly good. I don't like Kearney either at present. Seems to think he's better than he is.

Regardless, we have international experience throughout the team, not just in the pack. We saw that Madigan at 10 can work when Schmidt was at the helm. You may be right that Leinster's halfbacks are poor at present, but for god's sake they could at least plan to do something! The amount of unchased kicks on top of that shows they're not communicating properly. The fact that Gopperth has beaten the most players in the Pro 12 says it all - we don't plan to go past 10.

I think Leinster are missing a cutting edge in their backs. They have no prolific try scorers for instance - McFadden is probably their best back for try scoring and he is on the fringes of the international team because of his versatility and his commitment. I think Fitz would be a better centre than he is a winger.  He just doesn't score enough tries. I don't think Madigan is a centre either, but he is flawed as a 10. He might be ok with someone like BOD outside him. The Leinster wings are just not as good as the likes of Tommy Bowe, Trimble & Zebo in the kick and chase. Bowe and Zebo are exceptionally good at the kick and chase.

I can't think of a coach who I think would suit Leinster (other than Eddie O'Sullivan). They just seem to need this micro management.

We don't need prolific try scorers to pass the ball around a bit. As I've said on here recently, I'd gladly take losses if I could see the team developing. Eddie O would be great, and he deserves to redeem the world cup woes.

quinsforever wrote:well either the coach needs to be replaced by someone who is happy for his players not to think for themselves, and cater to every eventuality in the gameplan

or the players need to start thinking for themselves

like england did at the 2007 RWC. effectively sidelined Ashton mid-tournament and the players took things into their own hands. could a Leinster ever do that?

Im sure Sexton will be his usual angry self and try take the team by the scruff of the neck, but I just don't think its possible to do that these days successfully. Even since 07, rugby has gotten tighter. First phase set play scores were common enough back then. Now they're non existent.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

Assuming Leinster actually are worth their place as 5th in the pro 12, do you think MOC is the man to take them forward? He hasn't taken the team anywhere, and obviously isn't bothered with the academy/younger fellas who he doesn't rate. Mcfadden can be a good club player, he was always part of Schmidt's teams. Fitz is clearly good. I don't like Kearney either at present. Seems to think he's better than he is.

Regardless, we have international experience throughout the team, not just in the pack. We saw that Madigan at 10 can work when Schmidt was at the helm. You may be right that Leinster's halfbacks are poor at present, but for god's sake they could at least plan to do something! The amount of unchased kicks on top of that shows they're not communicating properly. The fact that Gopperth has beaten the most players in the Pro 12 says it all - we don't plan to go past 10.

I think Leinster are missing a cutting edge in their backs. They have no prolific try scorers for instance - McFadden is probably their best back for try scoring and he is on the fringes of the international team because of his versatility and his commitment. I think Fitz would be a better centre than he is a winger.  He just doesn't score enough tries. I don't think Madigan is a centre either, but he is flawed as a 10. He might be ok with someone like BOD outside him. The Leinster wings are just not as good as the likes of Tommy Bowe, Trimble & Zebo in the kick and chase. Bowe and Zebo are exceptionally good at the kick and chase.

I can't think of a coach who I think would suit Leinster (other than Eddie O'Sullivan). They just seem to need this micro management.

We don't need prolific try scorers to pass the ball around a bit. As I've said on here recently, I'd gladly take losses if I could see the team developing. Eddie O would be great, and he deserves to redeem the world cup woes.

You need good finishers. You don't have any.

kunu wrote:

quinsforever wrote:well either the coach needs to be replaced by someone who is happy for his players not to think for themselves, and cater to every eventuality in the gameplan

or the players need to start thinking for themselves

like england did at the 2007 RWC. effectively sidelined Ashton mid-tournament and the players took things into their own hands. could a Leinster ever do that?

Im sure Sexton will be his usual angry self and try take the team by the scruff of the neck, but I just don't think its possible to do that these days successfully. Even since 07, rugby has gotten tighter. First phase set play scores were common enough back then. Now they're non existent.

Sexton won't be making as many mistakes as were made yesterday (balls out on the full). He would probably have got that drop goal as well.

Leinster have a big problem at 9 though.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Surely the coaches can't make the players forget how to play?

I think a lot of Leinster fans are blaming the coaches too much while ignoring the fact that a lot of their players may just not be good enough.

With the very best set up in the NH that fact was hidden, and with the magic of BOD and Sexton carrying the team along you could ignore some of the others.

But now you're without those two, you're without Darcy, Fitzgerald and Nacewa (spelling) and suddenly you don't look so good.

That's life guys, these things are cyclical, just ask Munster, Leicester, Bath, Ospreys or Toulouse.

Suck it up and stop whining about your coach as if he made you're players play Poopie on purpose.

MOC isn't the sole reason for Leinster playing badly, I agree that we don't have the distribution and skills we once had. It's worth noting though that Schmidt won the Rabo playing an inexperienced Madigan at 10, and rarely played our big names (Nacewa aside), much to Austin Healey's annoyance, who claimed Leinster were so good in Europe at the time because they rested their players. Under MOC Madigan has gone backwards horrendously, as has our Pro 12 position. In my opinion, Leinster fans rightly complain about is the lack of intensity Leinster have shown all season. It's like the players just aren't up for it (Toulon game aside, but they were always going to be up for that after the Pro 12 loss).

As for your comparisons to Leicester, Toulouse etc i don't think they hold up - Leinster have 13 of the 22 who won the Six Nations in Murrayfield - most of whom are in their prime. This isn't a case when fans should accept bad performances. The team have the ability to do better, or at least to do more.

As for our team's style, I think we also have coaching problems. We have absolutely nothing about us, no real team characteristics. I'd much prefer Leinster to lose a bit more, but to at least try something during games. The way we closed up shop against Bath was embarrassing, as was all of our back play against Toulon.

The Leinster pack were very good yesterday (5 of them 6Ns starters). POC, Murray & Sexton were nominated for Player of the Six Nations - none of them play for Leinster. Leinster's halfbacks are poor and Fergus McFadden is no Tommy Bowe. Luke Fitz got to play in one of the easiest games of the Six Nations (perhaps because of that reason). Kearney was probably lucky to make the Ireland team for the 6Ns - he hasn't been great this season. Toulon would be a cut above Scotland.

Assuming Leinster actually are worth their place as 5th in the pro 12, do you think MOC is the man to take them forward? He hasn't taken the team anywhere, and obviously isn't bothered with the academy/younger fellas who he doesn't rate. Mcfadden can be a good club player, he was always part of Schmidt's teams. Fitz is clearly good. I don't like Kearney either at present. Seems to think he's better than he is.

Regardless, we have international experience throughout the team, not just in the pack. We saw that Madigan at 10 can work when Schmidt was at the helm. You may be right that Leinster's halfbacks are poor at present, but for god's sake they could at least plan to do something! The amount of unchased kicks on top of that shows they're not communicating properly. The fact that Gopperth has beaten the most players in the Pro 12 says it all - we don't plan to go past 10.

I think Leinster are missing a cutting edge in their backs. They have no prolific try scorers for instance - McFadden is probably their best back for try scoring and he is on the fringes of the international team because of his versatility and his commitment. I think Fitz would be a better centre than he is a winger.  He just doesn't score enough tries. I don't think Madigan is a centre either, but he is flawed as a 10. He might be ok with someone like BOD outside him. The Leinster wings are just not as good as the likes of Tommy Bowe, Trimble & Zebo in the kick and chase. Bowe and Zebo are exceptionally good at the kick and chase.

I can't think of a coach who I think would suit Leinster (other than Eddie O'Sullivan). They just seem to need this micro management.

We don't need prolific try scorers to pass the ball around a bit. As I've said on here recently, I'd gladly take losses if I could see the team developing. Eddie O would be great, and he deserves to redeem the world cup woes.

You need good finishers. You don't have any.

read my comment again. I don't need to see tries, I just want to see an attempt at actually playing. Gopperth doesn't pass, stats prove that. We'll never know if we have any young finishers coming through if we don't ever pass to them!

Sin é wrote:
Leinster have a big problem at 9 though.

I think Luke McGrath could be good. He's a good sniping scrum half. He's had some very good, and very bad points for Leinster. But that's to be expected for a young fella and not the end of the world in my opinion. MOC doesn't seem to rate him though, so he'll be on the sidelines next season too I'd imagine.

Goppert passed more than Michalak & Giteau yesterday.

Goppert 19 passes.
Michaelak 13 passes. Giteau 4 passes.

He's a running 10, do you honestly not agree? He's beaten more players than anyone else in the 19 games of the pro 12. He also threw 2 passes for intercept tries in 2 consecutive games in the euro group stages.

You just claimed he doesn't pass. He obviously does pass.

(he only made 2 runs yesterday).

ah don't be so pedantic sin, pot calling the kettle black I know. When I said he doesn't pass I didn't mean he's never ever passed a ball ever. I mean he isn't an out half who instinctively looks for the pass. The fact that he passed in 1 game proves nothing. Over the season, he's favoured the run. Fact.