West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

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West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Stella on Mon 20 Apr 2015, 10:28 am

First topic message reminder :

20 wickets is the key to winning test matches, and we saw in Antigua that it's easier said that done, even against this so called 'mediocre' West Indies team. True, the pitch died and became easier to bat on, but we lacked variety, and bite.

So who comes in?

Rashid/Ali or Wood for Tredwell or Jordan?

Tredwell did take four in the first innings, but will more than likely tie an end up, than clean up. Jordan is similar, and with Greneda more prone to spin, I can see one of the two spinners replacing the latter.

Lyth/Ali for Trott?

Trott had a stinker, but received a couple of good deliveries, and will be harshly dropped, after his first game back. Some have mentioned Ali to open, though this won't happen, imho.

The likely XI

Cook
Trott
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali/Rashid
Tredwell
Broad
Anderson
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:03 pm

Was literally just about to type about how good it is to see Cook batting long again....
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:04 pm

You get into the wrong mindset with that attitude though Olly, the best teams press the advantage home hard, they don't quietly and slowly accumulate. The more time there is left in the game the less pressure the bowlers are under and our bowlers aren't good enough under pressure to bat so slowly. 400 runs in four sessions should always be the target not bat, bat, bat and bat.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by kingraf on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:06 pm

Ooh, Cook has played on. Cutting from over the wicket is always risky (strange given the fact that right handers have no issues doing it). Nonetheless, decent innings. Needs a century like a shot in the arm... But encouraging knock for him. West Indies showing good discipline, England need to only bat once, score 550 and give themselves 120 overs to chuck all ten Windies wickets out
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by NickisBHAFC on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:06 pm

As cook at his at 76, the chances of him being dropped have decreased  massively. Poor dismissal.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:13 pm

NickisBHAFC wrote:As cook at his at 76, the chances of him being dropped have decreased  massively. Poor dismissal.

Equally as poor as Bell's.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:14 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:You get into the wrong mindset with that attitude though Olly, the best teams press the advantage home hard, they don't quietly and slowly accumulate. The more time there is left in the game the less pressure the bowlers are under and our bowlers aren't good enough under pressure to bat so slowly. 400 runs in four sessions should always be the target not bat, bat, bat and bat.

I'd rather we scored 500 slowly than 350 all out having a swing tho - saying that looks like we'll get 350 all out slowly now  Laugh Laugh

Should be noted we do have more natural and busy players beyond the first 3 - which I think more than makes up for it
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:14 pm

Surprise surprise, after a torturous opening stand we find ourselves three down for not much more added.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:16 pm

Olly wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You get into the wrong mindset with that attitude though Olly, the best teams press the advantage home hard, they don't quietly and slowly accumulate. The more time there is left in the game the less pressure the bowlers are under and our bowlers aren't good enough under pressure to bat so slowly. 400 runs in four sessions should always be the target not bat, bat, bat and bat.

I'd rather we scored 500 slowly than 350 all out having a swing tho - saying that looks like we'll get 350 all out slowly now  Laugh Laugh

Should be noted we do have more natural and busy players beyond the first 3 - which I think more than makes up for it

To win you have to take risks and we don't get near 500 batting slowly so it serves no purpose, we used to beat teams by getting a swift 400/450.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:21 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Olly wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:You get into the wrong mindset with that attitude though Olly, the best teams press the advantage home hard, they don't quietly and slowly accumulate. The more time there is left in the game the less pressure the bowlers are under and our bowlers aren't good enough under pressure to bat so slowly. 400 runs in four sessions should always be the target not bat, bat, bat and bat.

I'd rather we scored 500 slowly than 350 all out having a swing tho - saying that looks like we'll get 350 all out slowly now  Laugh Laugh

Should be noted we do have more natural and busy players beyond the first 3 - which I think more than makes up for it

To win you have to take risks and we don't get near 500 batting slowly so it serves no purpose, we used to beat teams by getting a swift 400/450.

Totally agree Hammersmith harrier. thumbsup

This morning's play the run rate dipped to even lower than West Indies scored at. Considering a lot of time has already been lost to the weather and that Windies are missing their best bowler and the pitch is doing very little then such a run rate just ain't good enough. Going along at that rate would mean England would not have reached 500 possibly until the end of tomorrow's play or later guaranteeing a draw.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by kingraf on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:21 pm

Depends how you as a team set up. If we bowl first gun, the aim is always an innings victory. Or at best a small, negotiable chase in the fourth. As such, unless rain has played a role, the aim is always bat bat bat. We've got Steyn though :P

Anyway, it's all good being counter attacking and showing initiative, but when the plan is to bat once... I'm not sure it's actually a huge consideration. You've got to back yourself as a team to bat long. If you bat long, you've almost certainly batted big.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by kingraf on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:25 pm

With that said....

England are batting incredibly slowly.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:29 pm

I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:39 pm

Roach bowling close to the 2nd new ball. If Ramdin thinking of not taking it? Or giving it to Holder and Gabriel?
The way the WI seamers including Roach bowled in the game, he might as well not take it, at least he can keep Bishoo on from one end.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:46 pm

Ballance on the attack, the scoreboard picking up a bit of speed now. Root has always been a busy player, not the big hitting type, but always keeping things rolling. England do have a sound platform, now they need to build on it. Getting bowled out for 350 wouldn't really help, they need to have 500 on the board and then leave it to the bowlers. But as the bowling unit has lost its effectiveness in conditions that are not helpful, perhaps they should keep a decent tempo to their innings so that there is enough time.
There is a lot of overs to come in today, if they could go to stumps say 360-370 for not more than 5 down, with their long batting lineup, 500+ should be manageable by lunch and a bit tomorrow.then let the bowlers attack. Alternatively if the likes of Buttler really gets in, bat longer, reach 600 and completely bat the WI out of the game.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:48 pm

Missed the early part of the game, decent performances from Cook and Trott, have managed to do enough to earn a few more chances.
Gabriel picked up a couple of wickets, but other than the returning Bishoo, the WI bowling continued to be average by the look of things.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:52 pm

Here is the Jamaican Murali, Marlon Samuels on!!

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 6:54 pm

Unless Ramdin has him imprinted as the new ball bowler or something silly like that, this is not a bad move, a couple of overs is worth with the parttimer. Think he should in fact give an over or 2 to Blackwood and Brathwaite as well.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:25 pm

Root certainly upping the tempo for England.  60 run partnership at 3 an over. I think that is a very acceptable rate for this stage in the match.

...14 off the next over. thumbsup


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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:27 pm

One should never have expected Ramdin to be sensible with his bowling changes, Marlon on for a long spell. No sign of the new ball either. Blackwood on and starts off with a horrendous half-tracker that Ballance gladly puts away for 6.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:30 pm

Great captaincy there, let Root and Ballance get comfortable facing trash before taking the new ball, just handed us the initiative, thank you very much Denesh.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:32 pm

After a 14 run over from Blackwood, Ramdin takes the new ball and throws it to Gabriel. So that Murali spelled for now!.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:45 pm

Root about to score six consecutive half centuries in Tests it looks like. Class act.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Mike Selig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:46 pm

I know 15 year olds who could captain better than Ramdin.

Root is so very very good at immediately getting things moving and putting pressure on the bowlers. These two are gradually putting England into a strong position.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hibbz on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:48 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:49 pm

I think the big key is confidence. Cook and Trott were low on it and the scoring rate reflected it. Ballance and Root though are both on a high and it shows.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Stella on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:51 pm

Hibbz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

Nowt wrong with a Dravid type player at three. he has players around him like Bell, Root, Stokes/Ali who can up the rate, when needed, just as Root is doing here.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:52 pm

Hibbz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

I would much prefer to see Bell or Root at three, you need someone with a bit of dynamism in the top three or the scoreboard stagnates, it shouldn't be left to Root to up coming in at five every time.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:58 pm

Stella wrote:
Hibbz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

Nowt wrong with a Dravid type player at three. he has players around him like Bell, Root, Stokes/Ali who can up the rate, when needed, just as Root is doing here.

Dravid did for large parts of his career have THE dynamic opener in Sehwag, so the situation is a bit different.

I have no issue with any of Cook, Trott or Ballance just feel it's an inbalanced top three.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Mike Selig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 7:59 pm

Ballance gets away with one which was crashing into all 3... meh there's something about umpire's call on those which I don't like.

Root has shown that he is perfect at 5, moving him would be lunacy.

England got to top of the world with Cook, Strauss and Trott as their top 3...

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Stella on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:01 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Stella wrote:
Hibbz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

Nowt wrong with a Dravid type player at three. he has players around him like Bell, Root, Stokes/Ali who can up the rate, when needed, just as Root is doing here.

Dravid did for large parts of his career have THE dynamic opener in Sehwag, so the situation is a bit different.

I have no issue with any of Cook, Trott or Ballance just feel it's an inbalanced top three.

I see your point, but Ballance should be as safe as anyone. Plus Bell and Root are scoring at four and five, so it would be madness to move them.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hibbz on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:04 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:
Hibbz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:I don't even like Ballance at three, his four centuries have contributed to one victory, it's just a horrendous first three.

What don't you like about Ballance at three Hammersmith?

Horrendous seems like more than a little bit of hyperbole and it's somewhat churlish to blame Ballance for the bowlers inability to take wickets on some very flat decks in my opinion.

I would much prefer to see Bell or Root at three, you need someone with a bit of dynamism in the top three or the scoreboard stagnates, it shouldn't be left to Root to up coming in at five every time.

Interestingly though Ballance has a strike rate in tests higher than Root's and only fractional lower than Bell's. Ballance going well at 3, Bell doing fine at 4 and Root superbly at 5. I agree with Mike it seems like lunacy to suggest moving them around.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:14 pm

That strike rate doesn't tell you the whole story including those nine tests against Australia and having that extra gear, Trescothick didn't have an amazing overall SR but he could turn it on.

I want to see progression, there's nothing wrong with trying something different, Bell is good enough to score runs anywhere in the order. I'm not going to pass full judgement on Root or Ballance until after the New Zealand and Australia series but the order does need a reshuffle.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by kingraf on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:20 pm

To be fair. Everyone has that cricketer who you can't warm to. I couldn't stand Philander even when he was averaging nearly 8 wickets a game.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:35 pm

With another 30 overs remaining in the day and only 31 behind the West Indies total, England should be hoping to be 80-90 ahead by stumps for may be only 4 down. Both Root and Ballance looking absolutely in control, a mistake from the batsman seeming the only way to get a wicket for the West Indies.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:42 pm

I used to be a very strong supporter of the DRS and I was very critical of the BCCI stand on the review system. But the stupid benefit of doubt to the umpire system and the inconsistent use of technology really put me off. Still not one of those looking for 100 percent results, but umpire's call and inconsistent use of technology are 2 things I would not have and I wouldn't want the review system in the current form with these 2 problems.
Devon Smith is not a player I rate, but had the review system had all the regular technology available, Smith might have got a reprieve on review in the first innings........

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by msp83 on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:44 pm

Bishoo not enjoying bowling with the newish ball. England take 16 of his comeback over.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by JDizzle on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 8:48 pm

In an ideal world, you do want an aggressor at the top of the order but he has to be good enough. We've seen it in the ODI side where England have just tried to force sloggers in there who aren't really good enough to play there. And I think at the stage of the development this team is at, they just want players who can score runs there.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:11 pm

England in firm control as the day draws to a close as they stand on 361 for 5. Root ploughs on (112 not out) is joined by Stokes and the lead is now at 63.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:15 pm

Stokes holes out on the boundary for 8 and a bit of needle as Samuels salutes him as he goes off and Stokes gives him some choice words as he passes him.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by VTR on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:16 pm

Brainless cricket from Ali and Stokes gifts Windies 2 wickets at a time when they should be cashing in on a demoralised attack.

If this innings unravels with less than a 150 run lead that's a very poor effort

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Mike Selig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:16 pm

England in danger of undoing some of their good work. 3 absolutely brainless dismissals and now 364/6. Still in a strong position, but could do with another partnership to get them up towards that 500.

The pitch looks very flat so it may be hard work second time around.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Mike Selig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:21 pm

People saying "oh well fans wanted England to play positive cricket" as an excuse for those dismissals are missing the point. Those are spectacularly poor dismissals whatever cricket you are trying to play.

Root to be fair has played a bit of a gem of an innings so far. Hard to score at this rate on this pitch with this outfield.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:24 pm

Yes the loss of wickets late on aren't great but England are still in control. Losing the wickets may be a blessing in disguise though as, even with only a lead of say 150 by mid-afternoon tomorrow it leaves more time in the game to press for a result especially if the pitch starts being susceptible to spin. In short I'd far sooner be in England's position right now than the Windies.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by alfie on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:32 pm

Didn't see the Ali run out , but Stokes will be annoyed getting out like that. Not that he was going to play for stumps , but Root is showing how to score at a good rate without taking needless risks.
England should be happy with the days work , but they'd have been happier with at least one more wicket in hand to push for quick runs tomorrow morning against what is going to be a rather tired West Indies attack.
Does look as if bowling West Indies out again will not be easy. But 300 runs today is a decent return. Hope the weather is kind.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by VTR on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:35 pm

I take the point about wickets moving the game on, but England should really have been 4 wickets down Max, aiming to get 200 ahead by mid afternoon. Now, even a 150 lead is not a certainty with only Jordan to come really

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by alfie on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:38 pm

Ha. Just saw the run out on replay. picard

Moeen hasn't had a good match so far. Perhaps he will do his part when they bowl again...

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:39 pm

The Ali run out was daft. Never was there a run there and Root (you could hear) clearly said no two or three times before Ali turned and tried to get back but was a long way out. Stokes will always run the risk of those sorts of dismissals. He is an aggressive player and looks to dominate - when it works it looks great but when it doesn't well it looks bad. England still in command of this match. I'd say the percentages now are something like 60% chance of a draw, 35% chance of an England win and 5% chance of a Windies win.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Mike Selig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:45 pm

Overall a decent day for England so I don't want to be overly negative, but Ballance, Ali and Stokes were all really poor wickets to lose, just such basic errors to make.

Anyway the positives are a first century opening partnership for ages, and Root and Ballance continuing to look the part.

England are in a strong position but will have to bowl well. Interested to see how Ali goes after a below par first innings.

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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:48 pm

Can we just fast forward to Stokes bowling at Samuels already.

Marlon saluting him off the field genuinely the funniest moment of cricket for a long time
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

Post by CaledonianCraig on Thu 23 Apr 2015, 10:57 pm

Mike Selig wrote:Overall a decent day for England so I don't want to be overly negative, but Ballance, Ali and Stokes were all really poor wickets to lose, just such basic errors to make.

Anyway the positives are a first century opening partnership for ages, and Root and Ballance continuing to look the part.

England are in a strong position but will have to bowl well. Interested to see how Ali goes after a below par first innings.

I don't know if it is just me Mike but do England tend to be overly loyal to its players compared to other countries? I mean they seem to persevere with players even if they have a few bad matches with no real scores or performances of note. Ali could be the latest in that group as he may not contribute much in this test but I'll bet there is a good chance he will keep his place. Carberry was another that springs to mind in recent times.
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Re: West Indies vs England 2nd Test - Greneda (Apr 21st-25th)

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