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Is Nadal suffering with his game psychologically?

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Belovedluckyboy
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Post by temporary21 Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:27 pm

A few weeks ago during the Indian wells final a poster mentioned his displeasure at a lot of threads going off topic to discuss Nadals form issues and his psyche.
Its no surprise therefore given his dodgy clay season that this conversation has permeated almost every thread weve got, and is likely to continue to do so every time he loses right though to RG.
Since some of the implications, some people have found repeating themselves, or sometimes distasteful it seems a good idea to put this all into one thread, to give the other topics room to breathe.

With that said, heres the avenue to discuss Nadals current loss of form issues and whether its related to him psychologically, things like

. Has Nadal lost his competitive edge?
. Is he getting nervous on big points?
. Has he got a mental block in going for his big shots, like the FHDTL?
. Is he getting affected by the time violations rule in a way he wasnt previously?
. Has losing to people outside the top 100 dented his confidence?

and so on and so forth. I dont think it unreasonable to put these conversations into one place, so go nuts and do remember to rules on these things.

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Post by HM Murdock Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:11 pm

Strength and endurance are the foundation upon which the rest of his game his built.

He is now nearly 29 and has just returned from his third prolonged lay-off of recent years.

I suspect his foundation is beginning to crack and crumble.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:17 pm

I have aired my views on this elsewhere but here goes again. A lot of things have transpired against Rafa to get him to where he is now in my opinion. Injuries in the last year or two hindered him at the start of last year but he managed (somehow) to retain the French Open. Since then though there has been precious little for him to be happy with chiefly: -

He has lost matches you'd never have expected him to lose and that must erode confidence and self-belief.

With that title wins have slowed to a trickle - again must erode confidence and self-belief.

He then had the appendicitis and his season ended on a downer.

I'd guess this impacted his ability to have full-blown fitness training blocks leading into the new season - that would also put niggling worries in his head.

This season then began in the same way as last with surprising losses and again confidence and self-belief erodes away and takes us to where we are now.

In my years of watching Rafa he has had this aura of self-confidence that you felt he knew he'd win come what may whereas now he exudes the impression he is relieved to win matches (if he does). Also that air of invincibility he had when he walked on court against anyone has eroded away. Players now walk onto court and really fancy their chances of winning much more which in turn does increase their chances and mindset.

For me he is going through a clear crisis of confidence and self-belief is now not there to anywhere near the degree it once was. He needs wins and titles to solve this problem but it is a vicious circle. Will he return to domination? I really doubt that considering Djokovic's form and (sorry Hn) he may now be at a stage when he will only feed off crumbs left behind by Novak. We shall see.
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Post by bogbrush Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:12 pm

This non-stop emphasis on "confidence" suggests Nadal is some kind of mental midget.

Quite obviously he isn't.

He also obviously isn't unfit; it's almost a year since he had a genuine injury. Appendicitis is a nothing issue, soon recovered from.

He's almost 29, so can reasonably be expected to be past his peak but some contemporaries have won plenty, including Slams, after that so it doesn't explain everything.

I think a combination of  having to play faster, plus opponents knowing that he can't run them into the ground any more and do being less driven to take so many risks, is the issue. To counter it he's going to have to perfect a more aggressive game.
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Post by socal1976 Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:43 pm

I honestly don't think the time thing is the issue I mean they were enforcing even more strictly in 2013 than they are now that was the first year the rule was put into effect and Nadal had a great season. If the time rule was going to throw him off it would have impacted his 2013 results the most since that was the first time they imposed the rule and were making a point to get everyone moving quicker.

To me I think his style is harder to play as you get older and older. Federer and Djokovic by standing closer to the baseline do less chasing and also neither guy works as hard as Nadal point in and point out to run around every backhand. Rafa's court positioning both way behind the baseline and standing in his backhand corner to turn every shot into a forehand, both of these factors multiply the amount of running you do on the court. It isn't that he isn't fit enough, he absolutely is. It is just that each of these injuries take something out of your training and compound that with his intense style and increasing age. I also think continually coming back from injury has probably worn Nadal down a bit. So it is probably a combination of all these things and the mid season racquet switch I don't think was well timed making a bad situation worse. And the way Rafa positions himself on the court is asking a lot of his legs and lungs and he might not be able to pay that price as consistently.


Last edited by socal1976 on Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:48 pm

bogbrush wrote:This non-stop emphasis on "confidence" suggests Nadal is some kind of mental midget.

Quite obviously he isn't.

He also obviously isn't unfit; it's almost a year since he had a genuine injury. Appendicitis is a nothing issue, soon recovered from.

He's almost 29, so can reasonably be expected to be past his peak but some contemporaries have won plenty, including Slams, after that so it doesn't explain everything.

I think a combination of  having to play faster, plus opponents knowing that he can't run them into the ground any more and do being less driven to take so many risks, is the issue. To counter it he's going to have to perfect a more aggressive game.

Confidence is everything in sportsmen. Take it away and it affects various aspects of the game. If you are assuming an operation to remove the appendix is something fairly routine you'd be correct. However, that operation and scar needs time to heal etc I'd say it is a fair to very good chance it affected his pre-season training programme and so fitness is not to the level he would have perhaps liked.

Yes he is 29 and you are correct that it may be he is past his peak and that can be another thing to erode confidence and self-belief if he believes that may be the case as well.

As for your claim it is because he can't time violate I say you obviously haven't watched his matches of late. If you had you'd note his game has been absolutely devoid of the Dtl shots he had as a trademark. Why? Not because of time violations but more down to lack of confidence to play the shot.
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Post by bogbrush Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:13 pm

Definitely the style is tougher to play as time goes by. In that sense this is a one-way street.

I don't think he's reached the point Federer had when he was losing to all & sundry but I think there could be an early shock at RG this year.
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Post by socal1976 Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:22 am

bogbrush wrote:Definitely the style is tougher to play as time goes by. In that sense this is a one-way street.

I don't think he's reached the point Federer had when he was losing to all & sundry but I think there could be an early shock at RG this year.

Nadal's game requires so much from him physically and even the best trained and most talented athletes have a certain finite amount of energy left in the tank. And certainly with his deep court position, aggressive running round of every backhand he can, and fighting for every point is much easier at 21 than at 29. I still think though that Nadal could have another run of slams and results in him, it is too early to tell in my mind if this is a permanent decline with no hope for a return to winning slams and competing for the number 1. I mean yes, for all these guys it is one way street but Nadal may have another lengthy run in him. But I don't think I can not see Nadal lasting into the early to mid thirties and laying great tennis like Roger has. His style is not very energy efficient and he has such problems with injuries. Right now at least Rafa looks like a very old 28 or 29. Interestingly, Djoko is only a year younger and he seems to have very little issues with injuries over the last few years.

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Post by Silver Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:25 am

socal1976 wrote:To me I think his style is harder to play as you get older and older. Federer and Djokovic by standing closer to the baseline do less chasing and also neither guy works as hard as Nadal point in and point out to run around every backhand. Rafa's court positioning both way behind the baseline and standing in his backhand corner to turn every shot into a forehand, both of these factors multiply the amount of running you do on the court...

...and the way Rafa positions himself on the court is asking a lot of his legs and lungs and he might not be able to pay that price as consistently.

This is definitely worth highlighting. It is a complex one with multiple factors involved and I think all the reasons that have posted so far have merit. But Nadal has never really had to adapt his game before - he is technically exceptional and tactically poor, always has been. I don't blame him, if I had that forehand then I wouldn't have bothered to change my game either.

Relentlessly defending the backhand corner is not only no longer enough; it's now actively hurting him. It's putting huge pressure on his forehand, and now that Novak and others have begun to take him wide on that side and abuse the court position he's left open, he is beginning to ask too much of the shot. It has crumbled time and again this year, and without the forehand in good working order, he has a far slimmer chance of beating the other top players. Add a probable slight physical decline and disappearing confidence, and you have a potential major problem. The aggressive gameplan is what's needed, and a few tactical adjustments, but I honestly don't think he has it in him. The switch toward a racquet that's designed to give more control and spin is absolutely not a good sign. He has incredible timing on the ball, but refuses to stand up to the baseline - if baffles me.

That being said...he's still in the top four, and like Novak and Federer, he is a victim of his own success. For all we know, he's going to blow away everyone at Madrid, Rome and RG and make us all look like idiots. I wouldn't bet on it, though...

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Post by socal1976 Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:00 am

Silver wrote:
socal1976 wrote:To me I think his style is harder to play as you get older and older. Federer and Djokovic by standing closer to the baseline do less chasing and also neither guy works as hard as Nadal point in and point out to run around every backhand. Rafa's court positioning both way behind the baseline and standing in his backhand corner to turn every shot into a forehand, both of these factors multiply the amount of running you do on the court...

...and the way Rafa positions himself on the court is asking a lot of his legs and lungs and he might not be able to pay that price as consistently.

This is definitely worth highlighting. It is a complex one with multiple factors involved and I think all the reasons that have posted so far have merit. But Nadal has never really had to adapt his game before - he is technically exceptional and tactically poor, always has been. I don't blame him, if I had that forehand then I wouldn't have bothered to change my game either.

Relentlessly defending the backhand corner is not only no longer enough; it's now actively hurting him. It's putting huge pressure on his forehand, and now that Novak and others have begun to take him wide on that side and abuse the court position he's left open, he is beginning to ask too much of the shot. It has crumbled time and again this year, and without the forehand in good working order, he has a far slimmer chance of beating the other top players. Add a probable slight physical decline and disappearing confidence, and you have a potential major problem. The aggressive gameplan is what's needed, and a few tactical adjustments, but I honestly don't think he has it in him. The switch toward a racquet that's designed to give more control and spin is absolutely not a good sign. He has incredible timing on the ball, but refuses to stand up to the baseline - if baffles me.

That being said...he's still in the top four, and like Novak and Federer, he is a victim of his own success. For all we know, he's going to blow away everyone at Madrid, Rome and RG and make us all look like idiots. I wouldn't bet on it, though...

Yeah good post Silver. There is a problem though if he decides to change his court positioning and to not run around every forehand that represents a huge change to his game. He can't all of a sudden morph into Agassi and stand up in the court. If he stops running around every backhand then players will start picking on the backhand which he doesn't hit up the line particularly well. These two changes would dramatically alter everything in his game and would represent major changes to his game and not minor tweeks. Also I think he needs to stop going so far back on the return as well. He needs to do more damage on the first ball. Step in and try to damage with the return as opposed to just trying to push your opponent back and to win the neutral or near neutral position. Also he needs to go for more free points with his first serve and work his way to net quicker and pull the trigger on the FH faster in rallies. But like you said I don't know if he can do all or most of these things at this stage in his career.

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Post by Henman Bill Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:06 am

SOme unknown personal life issue is another possibility.

IMBL, what do you make of it? I think I saw you posting that you watch every Rafa match?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:28 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:I have aired my views on this elsewhere but here goes again. A lot of things have transpired against Rafa to get him to where he is now in my opinion. Injuries in the last year or two hindered him at the start of last year but he managed (somehow) to retain the French Open. Since then though there has been precious little for him to be happy with chiefly: -

He has lost matches you'd never have expected him to lose and that must erode confidence and self-belief.

With that title wins have slowed to a trickle - again must erode confidence and self-belief.

He then had the appendicitis and his season ended on a downer.

I'd guess this impacted his ability to have full-blown fitness training blocks leading into the new season - that would also put niggling worries in his head.

This season then began in the same way as last with surprising losses and again confidence and self-belief erodes away and takes us to where we are now.

In my years of watching Rafa he has had this aura of self-confidence that you felt he knew he'd win come what may whereas now he exudes the impression he is relieved to win matches (if he does). Also that air of invincibility he had when he walked on court against anyone has eroded away. Players now walk onto court and really fancy their chances of winning much more which in turn does increase their chances and mindset.

For me he is going through a clear crisis of confidence and self-belief is now not there to anywhere near the degree it once was. He needs wins and titles to solve this problem but it is a vicious circle. Will he return to domination? I really doubt that considering Djokovic's form and (sorry Hn) he may now be at a stage when he will only feed off crumbs left behind by Novak. We shall see.


Don't apologise CC I know what you are saying, sadly I have to agree, personally I feel as vulnerable as he does. I have tried to stay optimistic and tell myself, he will come back to form, but the closer it gets to RG... Rolling Eyes  I have no explanation and Im not sure he has. Falling short of asking "has he burned himself out?" and if he has he is trying to fool himself into believing he hasn't. Every time he walks out on court, his mere presence, does not exude confidence.
He looks like he has just turned professional and is scared stiff of being in the spotlight. He knows he has expected nothing but the best of himself, and he now cannot deliver. His play is tentative, and without conviction. He has made a career out of putting the fear of god into his opponent, and now he is running scared. I feel sad, as I am not sure we will ever see Rafa Nadal again, and as a fan Its hard watching him take these defeats at the hands of oponents he would have otherwise beaten if he had been on crutches. He once said, that he would know the time has come to retire, when he stops winning .. I hope that if he retires he does so with grace. It is also upsetting as a fan to see everyone having a post mortem, when he has not been declared dead out of the water. But until that day happens, I will support him as Ive always done.

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Post by bogbrush Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:23 am

I agree with much of the posts above.......

Socal is spot on about the court positioning and defence of the backhand. This goes back to my own view that many years ago his back and was much better (remember the "two forehands" comment?).

I also think he is panicking, but I think it's because he knows players aren't going to be easily bullied off court by being made to run for 20 or 30 stroke rallies..... because now he can't either, and in this aspect I believe his realisation that the officials will now be much less forgiving on taking massive time to allow him to recover plays a part. That muscle bulk needs time.
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Post by Jahu Sun Apr 26, 2015 6:43 am

So if he has lost power, why is he staying so far back on the baseline?

His shots barely make over the net and are very short, can't he see that and move forward 2 meters?

I think sTOmeone has misused his money, bit of a Arantxa Sanchez money gone thing here, so Nadal is peed off censored
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 11:53 am

Let's see what Rafa is made of this time. Time and again he was able to rise after a fall, remember 2009, then 2011, then 2013?

His game is obviously there, it's iust that he couldn't bring it to the tennis court match after match, ie he lacks consistency. This is another test of Rafa's character and also Toni's method of coaching, ie concentrating on the mental aspect more than anything else. I sometimes wonder what if Rafa mentally collapsed, would his game still be good enough to win him matches? Of course I'm not talking about vs top players, but players in the top 20 or 30? I draw on his matches where he went auto pilot mode, ie he played with instinct instead of following a game plan, matches where he was forced to do so because he was injured during the match(es). His Rotterdam 2009 final and the AO2014 final came to mind. After he got injured in the match, he started playing freely as if he was not thinking, hitting and serving freely, no time wasting, but just served and hit big and he was able to hit some fantastic winners and even won a set in both of these matches.

His game is solid enough that without any game plan, he's still able to win at least a set against a top ten player playing based on instinct. Toni was interviewed after Rafa's loss here and he mentioned that Rafa was feeling down after the loss, but Toni told him to forget about this loss, and to concentrate on working to carry on from where they left off at MC. Toni has lots of work to do, to instill some belief in Rafa, giving him some positive vibes. I wrote a message to Rafa at his Facebook, telling him that he has to counter his Opponent's aggression with his very own aggression, play like Canada/Cincy 2013. I had a glimpse of an aggressive Rafa in that MC match vs Novak, but I didn't see that Rafa at Barcelona. It's either he's mentally or physically fatigued, that he couldn't hit his FH with power, or couldn't think his way out of trouble.

To me, Rafa is in this plight because he's physically and mentally not up to par yet. He telling the whole world that he's nervous only made things worse, his opponents would be more than happy to capitalize on his nerve. I bet he must be regretting it now, practically in every presser, he's being asked about his nerve, his confidence! Silly boy!

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Post by bogbrush Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:54 pm

There's no doubt he still has it in him to win stuff, even Slams. Federer did it well after his best was behind him so there's no reason Nadal can't follow suit.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:58 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Let's see what Rafa is made of this time.  Time and again he was able to rise after a fall, remember 2009, then 2011, then 2013?  

His game is obviously there, it's iust that he couldn't bring it to the tennis court match after match, ie he lacks consistency.  This is another test of Rafa's character and also Toni's method of coaching, ie concentrating on the mental aspect more than anything else.  I sometimes wonder what if Rafa mentally collapsed, would his game still be good enough to win him matches?  Of course I'm not talking about vs top players, but players in the top 20 or 30?  I draw on his matches where he went auto pilot mode, ie he played with instinct instead of following a game plan, matches where he was forced to do so because he was injured during the match(es).  His Rotterdam 2009 final and the AO2014 final came to mind.  After he got injured in the match, he started playing freely as if he was not thinking,  hitting and serving freely, no time wasting, but just served and hit big and he was able to hit some fantastic winners and even won a set in both of these matches.  

His game is solid enough that without any game plan, he's still able to win at least a set against a top ten player playing based on instinct.   Toni was interviewed after Rafa's loss here and he mentioned that Rafa was feeling down after the loss, but Toni told him to forget about this loss, and to concentrate on working to carry on from where they left off at MC.  Toni has lots of work to do, to instill some belief in Rafa, giving him some positive vibes.  I wrote a message to Rafa at his Facebook, telling him that he has to counter his Opponent's aggression with his very own aggression, play like Canada/Cincy 2013.   I had a glimpse of an aggressive Rafa in that MC match vs Novak, but I didn't see that Rafa at Barcelona.  It's either he's mentally or physically fatigued, that he couldn't hit his FH with power, or couldn't think his way out of trouble.

To me, Rafa is in this plight because he's physically and mentally not up to par yet.  He telling the whole world that he's nervous only made things worse, his opponents would be more than happy to capitalize on his nerve.  I bet he must be regretting it now, practically in every presser, he's being asked about his nerve, his confidence! Silly boy!

I see one chief difference from 2009, 2011 and 2013. Prior to those falls he had been winning big tournaments and had good runs of form. Prior to appendicitis he had been on a long run of poor form - the longest certainly in his career. That MUST erode confidence and self-belief and make it harder to bounce back like he did in the past plus as well he is now older so the body may not be so willing.
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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:06 pm

Rafa's whole career has been blighted by injuries due in the main to his style of play. Many times Ive seen these boards and the media discuss the possibility of Rafa changing his style because of the toll it was taking on his body. None of us know, what was or has been discussed by his medical advisers behind the scenes, what warnings they may have given him or if these injuries would shorten his career. Rafa's body has let him down so many times, and on occasions during a match. Is it possible therefore that he has lost confidence in his own physical ability.? The knees are not discussed anymore but Im not sure they are cured.  Is this the reason for his nerves? another angle but I do not believe that the pressure being applied because of time violations is the cause for a great champion to crumble.. he is made of sterner stuff than that.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:07 pm

Rafa's whole career has been blighted by injuries due in the main to his style of play. Many times Ive seen these boards and the media discuss the possibility of Rafa changing his style because of the toll it was taking on his body. None of us know, what was or has been discussed by his medical advisers behind the scenes, what warnings they may have given him or if these injuries would shorten his career. Rafa's body has let him down so many times, and on occasions during a match. Is it possible therefore that he has lost confidence in his own physical ability.? The knees are not discussed anymore but Im not sure they are cured.  Is this the reason for his nerves? another angle but I do not believe that the pressure being applied because of time violations is the cause for a great champion to crumble.. he is made of sterner stuff than that.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:42 pm

Hmm.. I see his 2011 being worse than now, because he wasn't injured or ill and just coming off a very good year, yet he was beaten everywhere by one player, that really dampened his spirit. His confidence was rock bottom, he even sounded like he's suffering a burn out, losing interest in his tennis career, saying something like he felt like he's playing tennis for a hundred years. His fans were really worried that he might quit then.

At least now he sounded more positive and said that he would carry on working to get back to his best level. He may or may not be in time to win the FO, but there're still Wimbledon and USO or the AO next year. He had lost the FO once, so he could build on that bad experience and how he had overcome that bad feeling. I bet he would tell his fans it's just tennis, it's not the end of the world when he lose a tennis match.

Of course he will be down if he loses at the FO, but I think he'll come back strong, it's just that he and his fans have to be prepared for the Parisan crowd cheering for his downfall at RG again!

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:53 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Hmm.. I see his 2011 being worse than now, because he wasn't injured or ill and just coming off a very good year, yet he was beaten everywhere by one player, that really dampened his spirit. His confidence was rock bottom, he even sounded like he's suffering a burn out, losing interest in his tennis career, saying something like he felt like he's playing tennis for a hundred years.  His fans were really worried that he might quit then.

Sorry I can't agree. Around this time in 2011 he was going to RG in much better form wherein that in 2010 he was a hair's breath away from the calendar grand slam and began 2011 with a QF at the Australian Open. This year he came into the year on the back of a 4th Round exit at Wimbledon, absent from the US Open and a QF in Australian Open. Like night and day really.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:08 pm

CC, have you really paid attention to what Rafa had said back in 2011? What is worse, to be fit and healthy yet losing to a single player seven in a row in finals including 3 slam finals? Or losing to players due to bad form when coming back from injury/surgery?

You got a bit mixed up, Rafa wasn't going for a calendar slam in 2010 as he lost in the QF at AO 2010. He was going for a non calendar four in a row at the AO2011 but failed when he had a thigh injury. He was devastated and I do feel that had affected his 2011 in addition to Novak's surge.

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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:24 pm

Nonsense. Rafa finally met someone who could beat him at his own game.
He was at full tilt for most of 2011, he was just bettered by Djokovic at every turn.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:26 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Nonsense. Rafa finally met someone who could beat him at his own game.
He was at full tilt for most of 2011, he was just bettered by Djokovic at every turn.

Here comes the size 13's again. The only thing that wont be nonsense to you is when he retires eh LS??

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:34 pm

LuvSports! wrote:Nonsense. Rafa finally met someone who could beat him at his own game.
He was at full tilt for most of 2011, he was just bettered by Djokovic at every turn.

I definitely agree.
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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:36 pm

SORRY! Can't offend the untouchable rafa!
Why can't people just admit he was outplayed for a year?
Massive plaudits should go to Djoko for outplaying Rafa.

Do you think that injury loss to Ferrer impacted his entire year?


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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:38 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Nonsense. Rafa finally met someone who could beat him at his own game.
He was at full tilt for most of 2011, he was just bettered by Djokovic at every turn.

Here comes the size 13's again. The only thing that wont be nonsense to you is when he retires eh LS??

CC definitely agrees with me. Are you going to say the same to him? Your views of me are way off as per.


Last edited by LuvSports! on Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:38 pm

LuvSports, was your post directed at me? If yes then read my earlier posts.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:42 pm

I guess posters here have to read properly, didn't I say Rafa was fit and healthy in 2011 and lost to the same player everywhere? Care to read again?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:43 pm

LuvSports! wrote:SORRY! Can't offend the untouchable rafa!
Why can't people just admit he was outplayed for a year?
Massive plaudits should go to Djoko for outplaying Rafa.

Do you think that injury loss to Ferrer impacted his entire year?


And why do you think I have agreed with CC in an earlier post, I am not defending Rafa at all, but you LS continue to walk a well trodden path, and it is not so much the content of your posts as the tone. You would never miss an opportunity to get the boot in whether he was outplayed or not. So before you accuse me of being sensitive which is what you are doing,, Ive already well outlined my view on Rafa's play, but I unlike you do not give ALL THE CREDIT to Djokovic.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:44 pm

CC and LuvSports, you have problems reading?

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:45 pm

LuvSports! wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:
LuvSports! wrote:Nonsense. Rafa finally met someone who could beat him at his own game.
He was at full tilt for most of 2011, he was just bettered by Djokovic at every turn.

Here comes the size 13's again. The only thing that wont be nonsense to you is when he retires eh LS??

CC definitely agrees with me. Are you going to say the same to him? Your views of me are way off as per.

DITTO

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:45 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:CC, have you really paid attention to what Rafa had said back in 2011?  What is worse, to be fit and healthy yet losing to a single player seven in a row in finals including 3 slam finals?  Or losing to players due to bad form when coming back from injury/surgery?

You got a bit mixed up, Rafa wasn't going for a calendar slam in 2010 as he lost in the QF at AO 2010.  He was going for a non calendar four in a row at the AO2011 but failed when he had a thigh injury.  He was devastated and I do feel that had affected his 2011 in addition to Novak's surge.

Well he won THREE slams in 2010 and one quarter (okay exaggeration about calendar slam) but pretty sure he was winning plenty of Masters around that time as well. Compare that to the here and now and it is vastly different. In 2014 Rafa won the French Open, Madrid Open and lesser tournaments in first half of the year at Doha and Rio. Since then.....zilch. That is around nine month spell until he won a small tournament in Buenes Aires on clay. In 2010 he won three slams, three Masters titles and Tokyo title - so he was in far better shape going into 2011 confidence-wise than in the here and now.
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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:48 pm

As to what Rafa says or does (or anyone for that matter) I prefer judging them on the tennis courts rather than what they say. And going by that this is the lowest point in Rafa's career. I sincerely hope he can get his mojo back and his self-belief and confidence and we'll see but at the moment it doesn't look good. I sympathise as Murray had a similar 2014 - pretty poor and I still have my doubts whether he will scale the heights again. Again we shall see.
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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:58 pm

I make my position clear, I am not a fan so much as a supporter of Nadal :
I recognise the situation Rafa is in and as a TENNIS FAN, I get no pleasure in seeing the demise of any player, particularly one that has given so much to the sport. What I do abhor is fans that have jumped off one bandwagon on to another, I saw it happen when it looked like Roger had hit the wall.
At the moment Djoko is the flavour of the month, has he earned that position? of course he has, but to undermine the rest of the field because he has now usurped the other two Rolling Eyes  (wait for the GOAT debate to resurface) So the King is dead, long live the King. king
Enjoy his success, I await to see what happens when a wheel falls off that bandwagon.

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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:14 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:CC and LuvSports, you have problems reading?

I did but then you added the Aus loss which I didn't agree with.

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:15 pm

Nobody says Rafa is not down in confidence but he had already warned us his fans not to expect a comeback like his 2013. He was 9 months without a title until BA, but bear in mind he didn't play for a good few months, it's unlike 2009 to 2010 where he played for ten months without winning anything. It's unlike 2011 when he wasn't prepared for Novak's surge, hence he was more negative in 2011 but right now he's more positive and patient. Of course playing so badly wasn't anything to be positive about but he did show signs of better play at MC.

I really don't see why everyone has to be so negative about Rafa now, even if he loses at the FO, he'll carry on working to come back to his normal level. He may be in worse conditions than his 2011 or 2009 but he has 14 slams now, compared to 6 in 2009 or 10 in 2011; so even if he's not winning anything this year, what he has achieved in his career up to now is still much better than when he's in 2009 and 2011.

If Rafa is not going to win anymore and thus decides to call it a day, then that's his choice and his fans though can't bare to let him go, would have to accept his decision.




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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:18 pm

CC, that AO2011 loss affected him mentally, but that doesn't mean that he's not playing well for the rest of the season.

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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:23 pm

I deffo want Rafa back and playing well again. I just hope a few more Stanimal slam runs halt the likes of him, Murray and Djoko along the way.
Attacking tennis ftw!

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:25 pm

If Rafa is not going to win anymore and thus decides to call it a day, then that's his choice and his fans though can't bare to let him go, would have to accept his decision

I would hate to see him retire, the sport needs him, but rather than see him constantly being beaten by second rate players, and slipping further and further down the rankings I would prefer that he did. Let the sport remember the champion he is and the enormous contribution he has made. I don't agree that if he fails to hold on to the RG, which is essentially Nadal, he will find the momentum to continue.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:30 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Nobody says Rafa is not down in confidence but he had already warned us his fans not to expect a comeback like his 2013.  He was 9 months without a title until BA, but bear in mind he didn't play for a good few months, it's unlike 2009 to 2010 where he played for ten months without winning anything.  It's unlike 2011 when he wasn't prepared for Novak's surge, hence he was more negative in 2011 but right now he's more positive and patient. Of course playing so badly wasn't anything to be positive about but he did show signs of better play at MC.  

I really don't see why everyone has to be so negative about Rafa now, even if he loses at the FO, he'll carry on working to come back to his normal level.  He may be in worse conditions than his 2011 or 2009 but he has 14 slams now, compared to 6 in 2009 or 10 in 2011; so even if he's not winning anything this year, what he has achieved in his career up to now is still much better than when he's in 2009 and 2011.

If Rafa is not going to win anymore and thus decides to call it a day, then that's his choice and his fans though can't bare to let him go, would have to accept his decision.




It is not about being negative about Rafa - more like being realistic. Some time his wins will dry up (and they have just now) so this may be terminal - I hope not but that is what is being discussed here. As I have said in the here and now look what he has on his plate - loss of form (beyond that of 2010 going into 2011, I'd suggest appendicitis op and scar healing prevented him doing a full pre-season fitness programme (unlike 2011) and a complete dry up of any major titles for almost a year (unlike any other time in his career). That is why people are discussing Rafa in this way. The challenge he faces to get back to the top is bigger than anything he has faced in the past (IMO) - it may happen and if it is going to happen you'd say it simply has to see him winning the French Open. If not then the questions being asked will be even more plentiful.
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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:58 pm

Rafa himself is more realistic than anyone here, he already told his fans that he may fall out of top ten, even top twenty. So, his fans shouldnt be shocked if he doesnt win the FO and falls down the rankings.

Rafa has been asked questions like these many times in his career, I'm sure he has already got used to it. Fed was also asked questions but hes still surviving, both of them would be asked questions till the day they really retired.

Lets wait and see how things go for Rafa..

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Post by laverfan Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:02 pm

The expectation that a player plays and keeps winning fails to recognize the shelf-life of an elite athlete. Nadal has been around for 10+ years in the ATP circuit (2005-2015).

To me, Borg is the role model in terms of desire, or lack thereof, and when to walk away, when the sport and the player have mutually benefited from and it is time to move on.

The constant analysis of Nadal's travails is tedious and fatiguing.

Djokovic is the new king. Long live the King! (... till his shelf life is over).

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:05 pm

I see Rafa playing attacking tennis to win his USOs and Wimbledons, even some of his FOs, dont understand this Stanimal thing. Nobody could defend all the way to a slam title!

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:09 pm

laverfan wrote:The expectation that a player plays and keeps winning fails to recognize the shelf-life of an elite athlete. Nadal has been around for 10+ years in the ATP circuit (2005-2015).

To me, Borg is the role model in terms of desire, or lack thereof, and when to walk away, when the sport and the player have mutually benefited from and it is time to move on.

The constant analysis of Nadal's travails is tedious and fatiguing.

Djokovic is the new king. Long live the King! (... till his shelf life is over).

And let us keep hammering the nails into the coffin its less tedious and fatiguing



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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:15 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I see Rafa playing attacking tennis to win his USOs and Wimbledons, even some of his FOs, dont understand this Stanimal thing. Nobody could defend all the way to a slam title!  

I will never see Nadal as an attacking player.
He stands too far behind the baseline, hits far too few winners for that and admitted that against feds for example he won't go for the winner but will wait when the opportunity arises.

When Stan won he played lights out tennis. Winners galore. I hope someone else of that ilk can do that soon.

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Post by summerblues Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:21 pm

As I said on the Barcelona thread, I still see Rafa as the main favorite for the RG.

However, if he were to struggle through the rest of the clay court season, including at RG, I would start having serious question marks about his ability to get back to winning ways. If he cannot win on clay where he normally wins in his sleep, then something may be so broken in his game that it will be hard to recover from.

But he would first need to fail at the FO before all this would matter. So far, he has always been able to get himself ready for the FO, and I expect he will be ready this year yet again. I should note that in this context I would not view a tight loss to Nole at the FO as a failure (though it would undoubtedly be a failure in some other contexts).

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Post by Belovedluckyboy Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:23 pm

Not when at Wimbledon and the USO, Rafa won not by defending there.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:27 pm

I agree Ive always thought Rafa to be defensive (too much so at times) he does have (or should I say did have) the ability to turn defence into attack very swiftly when the occasion presented itself. Making him very unpredictable but he has lost that he is much more reluctant to assert himself and lets the play be dictated to him now. He has admitted several times over the last few months as though it is something that is being drilled into him "I must be more aggressive and intense"

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Post by LuvSports! Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:39 pm

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Not when at Wimbledon and the USO, Rafa won not by defending there.  

Agree to disagree.

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