England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

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England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 May 2015, 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Less than two weeks to go before the Selectors announce England's squad for the first test, starting on 21st May. At the culmination of the West Indies first innings in Barbados you would have said that the test team had perhaps taken two steps forward and one backwards. The rest of that test were however several huge backward steps as we look to progress.

So what can we expect when the squad is announced in 12 days time? The guys on the current tour who have not played (Lyth, Bairstow, Rashid, Plunkett & Wood) will have just one first class game to try and make their cases for selection - and now you have to say that there are definitely places up for grabs.

Certain to be in Squad:

Cook, Ballance, Bell, Root, Buttler, Broad, Anderson

Cook will continue as captain in the near future, while his runs in the Caribbean have secured his spot at the top of the order for a while yet.
Broad will be included, but I feel his place is increasingly at risk.


Probably in Squad:

Stokes, Ali

Likely to both be in squad. Real question is should both be in the team at the same time? Stokes is surely a 4th seamer, while this tour has reminded us that Ali had a fantastic introduction to International cricket as a bowler, but as someone who has always been a batsman who bowls a bit he is still learning his trade. Should he really be the main spinner?


Likely to miss out

Trott, Jordan, Tredwell

The experiment with Trot at opener is surely over. Jordan has not looked good enough to fill the 3rd seamer role, and does not bat well enough to be 4th seamer. Tredwell can return to Canterbury to be Kent's second choice spinner.



So who will be asked to step up?

At opener Lyth is the next cab on the rank, but will have played bugger all cricket. Robson made a big hundred at the weekend, but bugger all in Middlesex first two CC matches. Hales is scoring runs for Notts, but at number 3.
Plunkett and Wood may be looked at but have the same problem as Lyth with no cricket under their belts. Who is there in county cricket who bowls with real pace, can offer something different and can get good batsmen out?  not sure there is anyone. If fit Woakes may well be looked at.
Finally we need a genuine spinner in the squad. Coach (should he survive) and skipper do not rate Rashid - so who do we look at next?




The good news, for England team, is that NZs preparations will be disrupted with several players not arriving from IPL until the eve of the first test.


NZ Squads:

Test squad:
Brendon McCullum (captain), Corey Anderson, Trent Boult, Doug Bracewell, Mark Craig, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Luke Ronchi (wk), Hamish Rutherford, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, BJ Watling (wk), Kane Williamson.

ODI and T20 squad:
Brendon McCullum (captain), Corey Anderson, Trent Boult, Grant Elliott, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Mitchell McClenaghan, Nathan McCullum, Adam Milne, Luke Ronchi (wk), Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Kane Williamson.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 05 May 2015, 4:35 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Just to add that it makes perfect sense to send Ali back to CC and hope he can find a semblance of form. IF he does and IF Treadwell disappoints then he can always be reconsidered.

You're mellowing! Wink

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 05 May 2015, 5:45 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:

Just to add that it makes perfect sense to send Ali back to CC and hope he can find a semblance of form. IF he does and IF Treadwell disappoints then he can always be reconsidered.

You're mellowing! Wink

Just emphasising on a sense of fairness. Wink
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Tue 05 May 2015, 8:43 pm

While Moeen Ali did have a fine series against India with the ball, it should not be forgotten that India is relearning how to tour....... It was a general batting lineup that was struggling for form and was far too dependent on Bhuvneshwar Kumar and the lower order to put some runs on the board with Rahane and Vijay. Broad and Anderson were bowling well, Moeen was considered the release option. Thought the Indians were overconfident against Ali and that contributed to their undoing.
Not suggesting the performance has to be discounted, but he just can't stay in the side on the basis of that for ever. Other than 2 or 3 tests against India, Ali was either average or below in all the remaining games. And he has not proven himself to be a consistent batsman either.
I don't think Rashid will be running through sides just like that. Perhaps the Australians/ New Zealanders might treat him like they did with Imran Tahir and Tharindu Kaushal and smash him around the park. But considering England's present situation, think giving Rashid an opening is an option worth it. Particularly considering his performance in the domestic season last year.......
I noted Guildford's comments on Panesar, otherwise without a doubt, he's the best spinner in England and when his head is in the right place and when on form, he certainly is international class. But I am not sure Monty can rediscover all that now to make an immediate comeback into the side.
Is the Strauss appointment finalized by the way?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 06 May 2015, 3:55 am

Craig : I wouldn't complain too much if the selectors came up with your selection for the first Test. But as guildford suggested we should probably wait until the nect round of CC matches give us some additional indications before settling on an XI.

Incidentally ; who were the three extra "reserves " on your squad list ?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 06 May 2015, 8:15 am

Nothing too imaginitive alfie just Robson, Bairstow and Wood.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Mike Selig on Wed 06 May 2015, 9:24 am

Hello Smile

I had a really busy bank holiday week-end and so (probably thankfully) missed the unfolding of the 3rd test.

I really just wanted to make the point that selection decisions are very very rarely black and white. Even if you disagree with the decision and are proved "right" by subsequent events doesn't make the decision fundamentally wrong.

I am thinking here mainly of the call to give Trott a chance. I know that a lot of people on here expressed reservations/disagreement at the time. I am certain that the England camp shared those reservations, it is just that given all the pros and cons which they knew probably (hopefully anyway) better than anybody they came down the other side of the argument. I don't personally think that makes them wrong, because there isn't really a right and wrong here.

Fundamentally the issue with English cricket at the moment is there aren't that many outstanding options out there. This is reflected by the fact that by and large the same names keep cropping up including at times people who have been tried and turned out to not be very good - the old syndrome of improving as a player when out of the team (Plunkett seems to be this guy at the moment; I am half expecting a clamour for a return for Bresnan to start up soon enough).

I think Lyth will get the next shot as Cook's opening partner (I have made the point before but I will make it again - this procession of openers cannot be helping Cook in any way), but I am not that optimistic. Unfortunately Compton wasn't very good (and isn't opening ATM), Carberry was generally poor at batting and rubbish at fielding, and Robson turned out to have a good temperament but fundamentally unsound technique.

I'd like to see Hales at some point - I think he has something special about him - but he isn't opening.

I really really don't know what to make of Jordan. So much of what he does looks so wrong, but yet 80% of it turns out to somehow work. He is just a terrifically natural and talented athlete - at all 3 disciplines IMO. If you could somehow harness that natural ability then you could have an amazing player. I am just not sure how you do that. I would always want him in my side because I reckon he is the type of guy who might just produce a moment which turns the game on its head (for example it wouldn't surprise me if England were in the middle of a collapse and he came in and whacked 60 or more) but I'm not sure you can afford such a luxury in a side which isn't doing so well. So basically I don't know.

Pretty much all the other arguments have been bashed around and I don't really have much to add in terms of reasoning, but for the record:
- I don't see how or why Broad's place should even be under any kind of pressure, especially given that England don't exactly have great options ATM
- I side with those who think the criticism of Ali has been OTT and I think he is probably still the man in possession. It was one (admittedly apparently very very) bad innings - if he was a batsman people wouldn't suggest dropping him based on that.
- Bell's place should be under threat IMO. For a senior player he isn't performing consistently enough, and Root/Ballance are now established enough that bringing a new player into the middle order wouldn't necessarily be that bad a thing.
- Buttler hasn't performed as hoped, but there is no one else. He gets the summer at least.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by VTR on Wed 06 May 2015, 10:37 am

Good post Mike. The only one I would take issue with is Buttler not performing as hoped. He has 3 50's in his first 6 Tests which is not bad going. In the last game he was not out in both innings, in the second Test he got out cheaply going for quick runs.

He has been moved around in the batting order so probably doesn't know what his role is, I feel he should be at 6 ahead of Stokes and Ali, but definitely 7 at the lowest.

His keeping has not been too bad and he is improving. He will miss a few but we need a keeper who can bat.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Wed 06 May 2015, 10:42 am

Buttler is a strange one... he is good enough for tests, and will be one of our best keeper-batsman IMO.....however he should not be batting at 8... he's good enough to bat 6 for christ's sake...he needs to be higher than 8..

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Mike Selig on Wed 06 May 2015, 10:58 am

Look I'm a massive massive Buttler fan, but my perception has been that when he has scored it has generally been "cheap" runs (if that makes sense) and at times he has struggled. He has not done badly by any stretch, but he has simply been... OK. I think we are all hoping he will end up being quite a bit better than that (I certainly am).

Agreed that having him at number 8 isn't helping much, although not 100% convinced he is a number 6 either. 7 would be fine.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by VTR on Wed 06 May 2015, 11:06 am

Well I think "OK" is a fair assessment and meets expectations - he is a young player finding his feet in the long form of the game.

I think he is a real talent and needs to be persisted with, the same goes for Stokes.

I am thinking back to a young Flintoff and even Harmison and how good they became, players with that something extra need to be nurtured and they will come good once they have the experience.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 06 May 2015, 11:30 am

I think Mike is correct to utter a cautionary note about Buttler.  I actually have high hopes for him ; but I would agree he hasn't yet set the place on fire.
His keeping is perhaps best described as "adequate" at Test level...not bad , mind ; but if he were not considered a serious talent with the bat he wouldn't have been selected at all. And after a fine score on debut he hasn't really followed on from that.
I do take the point about his batting at eight not being ideal ; but good players adjust to situations (fairly sure Prior batted at eight on a number of occasions when a night watchman was employed , for example ) ...and in any case one of the criticisms I would make is that he has not yet displayed the aptitude for batting with the tail which is one thing the last of the recognized batsmen - whether at 7 or 8 - needs to develop. In the first innings in Barbados he didn't seem to make much of an attempt to take control once he was left with the rabbits - to be fair he didn't get much time to do so ! And in the second he again waited until he was left with just Anderson for company before he started to unleash his range of strokes - with success. Probably a confidence issue ; and I'm sure he will learn.
And there was that peculiar strokeless effort in the earlier match...I am not sure he knows how good he is yet.
This sounds overdone now even to me . But what I'm trying to say is that a player with his ability needs to impose himself on the bowlers more ; not just when leading up to a declaration under no pressure at all.  
I am in no doubt that he is safe for the summer - and probably beyond. But I really want to see a bit more from him. Centuries will be harder to come by against NZ and Australia . But his predecessor made them ; and I am hoping he will do the same. Setting the bar high ? Certainly : but if you want to be the England wicketkeeper...

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 06 May 2015, 11:57 am

While I'm here I'd also like to remind everyone that of the ten players "in " the team at the moment , five have played from six to eleven Tests each ; and none of them have been poor ; though perhaps only Ballance can be said to have over performed. A quick look at the figures shows Moeen averaging under 30 with the ball and just shy of the same mark with the bat ; Stokes 28 (bat) though his bowling is a little disappointing at 39 , and Jordan a modest 18 batting and 35 with the ball : nothing fantastic ; but surely something to build on ?
They may well not all fit in the same team every time (A fit again Woakes will challenge for a start) ; but I would hope none are discarded completely at this stage . (In my opinion ) that would be a waste of some promising talent just as their early experience ought to start paying off in improvements.
Whether they will all survive the next year is another matter . But I think there is a fair chance that several of them will. For the good of English cricket I hope I'm right !

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 06 May 2015, 12:07 pm

VTR wrote:Good post Mike. The only one I would take issue with is Buttler not performing as hoped. He has 3 50's in his first 6 Tests which is not bad going. In the last game he was not out in both innings, in the second Test he got out cheaply going for quick runs.

He has been moved around in the batting order so probably doesn't know what his role is, I feel he should be at 6 ahead of Stokes and Ali, but definitely 7 at the lowest.

His keeping has not been too bad and he is improving. He will miss a few but we need a keeper who can bat.

Even though I'm probably one of the harshest judges on Buttler here, I'm not advocating he be dropped. Unless we opt for a short-term solution, he is the best we have. A year ago my choice was Read. However, as I said, the other day that ship has sailed and it would be ridiculous now to turn again to the Notts keeper or someone similar like Foster of Essex for this summer, only to bring back a somewhat chastened Buttler after that.

Generally, the current descriptions of Buttler are agreed with such terms as ''ok'' and ''average''. I think that's fair. The important thing to emphasise though is that I cannot recall a good - let alone better than that - Test team over the last 45 years (my main cricket watching time) whose keeper or keeper-batsman was only ok. It is such a pivotal role it needs the holder to really demand selection.

So what needs to happen? Well, for a start, I think people like me need to appreciate he's young and inexperienced and display some patience. However, I also believe that at the same time Buttler needs to push himself further forward. VTR refers to him probably not knowing what his (batting) role is - that may well be so but I would like to see him more making the case rather than others having to decide for him, he's not just a piece on the chess board but a player in every sense as well.

As a keeper, I would also like to see Buttler being a more forceful guide and aide to his captain. I appreciate you can't completely change character but for international cricket he could imo do with a bit more edge. In interviews, he comes across as nice and polite - just the sort of young man I would be delighted for any of the Bat girls to bring home for tea. Whilst I would never have said the same about Rod Marsh in his twenties, I know who I would rather have behind the stumps in an Ashes series!

Edit PS: hadn't seen Alfie's post when I posted this. Some similar themes.


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 06 May 2015, 12:15 pm

The averages of Ali are irrelevant to me, I can see he's not good enough for test cricket with either the ball or bat.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 06 May 2015, 1:47 pm

Mike Selig wrote:Hello Smile

I had a really busy bank holiday week-end and so (probably thankfully) missed the unfolding of the 3rd test.

I really just wanted to make the point that selection decisions are very very rarely black and white. Even if you disagree with the decision and are proved "right" by subsequent events doesn't make the decision fundamentally wrong.

I am thinking here mainly of the call to give Trott a chance. I know that a lot of people on here expressed reservations/disagreement at the time. I am certain that the England camp shared those reservations, it is just that given all the pros and cons which they knew probably (hopefully anyway) better than anybody they came down the other side of the argument. I don't personally think that makes them wrong, because there isn't really a right and wrong here.

Fundamentally the issue with English cricket at the moment is there aren't that many outstanding options out there. This is reflected by the fact that by and large the same names keep cropping up including at times people who have been tried and turned out to not be very good - the old syndrome of improving as a player when out of the team (Plunkett seems to be this guy at the moment; I am half expecting a clamour for a return for Bresnan to start up soon enough).

I think Lyth will get the next shot as Cook's opening partner (I have made the point before but I will make it again - this procession of openers cannot be helping Cook in any way), but I am not that optimistic. Unfortunately Compton wasn't very good (and isn't opening ATM), Carberry was generally poor at batting and rubbish at fielding, and Robson turned out to have a good temperament but fundamentally unsound technique.

I'd like to see Hales at some point - I think he has something special about him - but he isn't opening.

I really really don't know what to make of Jordan. So much of what he does looks so wrong, but yet 80% of it turns out to somehow work. He is just a terrifically natural and talented athlete - at all 3 disciplines IMO. If you could somehow harness that natural ability then you could have an amazing player. I am just not sure how you do that. I would always want him in my side because I reckon he is the type of guy who might just produce a moment which turns the game on its head (for example it wouldn't surprise me if England were in the middle of a collapse and he came in and whacked 60 or more) but I'm not sure you can afford such a luxury in a side which isn't doing so well. So basically I don't know.

Pretty much all the other arguments have been bashed around and I don't really have much to add in terms of reasoning, but for the record:
- I don't see how or why Broad's place should even be under any kind of pressure, especially given that England don't exactly have great options ATM
- I side with those who think the criticism of Ali has been OTT and I think he is probably still the man in possession. It was one (admittedly apparently very very) bad innings - if he was a batsman people wouldn't suggest dropping him based on that.
- Bell's place should be under threat IMO. For a senior player he isn't performing consistently enough, and Root/Ballance are now established enough that bringing a new player into the middle order wouldn't necessarily be that bad a thing.
- Buttler hasn't performed as hoped, but there is no one else. He gets the summer at least.

Hi Mike - good and thorough post as ever.

I understand your comment that ''selection decisions are very very rarely black and white''. However, I do believe we shouldn't say selectors cannot and do not make wrong decisions. I appreciate those are not your words but your post travels a bit in that direction for me. Any disagreement here is on emphasis and wording rather than fundamental. Leave it at that for my part.

Your comments on Jordan at England level very much mirror the issues Surrey had with him at county level. He burst on the scene to considerable effect around the age of nineteen but was then plagued by back trouble and missed the large part of two seasons. At the Oval he failed to recapture confidence (never great anyway) and form upon his return. Surrey really needed - and this is where I draw parallels with England now - to back him or let him go. Instead, Adams characteristically tried to be all things to all people at all times and would alternately drop and recall Jordan. Not surprisingly, that strategy bombed along with Jordan's performances leading to his eventual release at Surrey (generally regretted but still felt to be the right call at the time) and subsequent revival at Sussex. We obviously can't keep him in the England side indefinitely hoping for proof of mastery but I believe a little longer run might just produce benefits for all. Equally, and harking back to his Surrey days, I don't think that bringing him in and out of the side will work. If that is the intention, I would prefer a hard decision be made sooner than later.


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Mike Selig on Wed 06 May 2015, 1:58 pm

I didn't mean to open up such a discussion about Buttler. My point was only that anybody thinking about dropping him (I don't actually think anybody really is) should come up with alternatives which they think would be better.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The averages of Ali are irrelevant to me, I can see he's not good enough for test cricket with either the ball or bat.

I am interested in this comment, not only because I fundamentally disagree but mainly because you have offered precisely zero reasoning for your opinion. What is it about the technical/tactical/mental/psychological/physical/other components of Moeen Ali's game which have drawn you to this conclusion?

From where I'm standing:

batting-wise Moeen has an issue of being loose outside off. There are question marks also over his ability to play the short ball, but he seems to have improved at that aspect considerably. I like the way he plays spin, and he seems to be able to adapt his game to the situation all right. The issue outside off should be worked on, and for now I think prevents him from playing up at the top of the order, but there is enough there IMO to suggest he could be a decent no 7, maybe even no 6.

On the bowling front he clearly gets quite a bit of action on the ball, and is capable of bowling quickly whilst still getting good flight and dip. He has troubled some very good players of spin bowling in his short test career so far. Obviously consistency is still a big issue, and I would like to see him work over batsmen more with subtle changes in line and length - at the moment I think he sometimes just bowls the ball in the right area and hopes for something to happen. On the other hand spin bowlers mature late so this is something I imagine he'll improve on.

One thing which has impressed me the most about Moeen is his ability and willingness to work on aspects of his game and improve them, potentially making adjustments as they seem necessary. We've seen this already with his bowling which has come on massively, and as I hinted at earlier he seems to be trying to sort out his issues against the short ball. That for me is as important as anything.

I'd like to see his fielding improve, at the moment it is adequate at best I would say. His fitness seems fine, certainly he hasn't stood out either way.

But certainly I can see him playing the all-rounder's role in this England side, batting at 6 or 7 and either as the support to a 4-seam attack or as one of 2 spinners on subcontinental wickets.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 06 May 2015, 3:28 pm

I see many here rate Chris Jordan pretty high. But I really can't see him as an all-rounder. He's not even a bowling all-rounder. He's a bowler who can bat a bit. Say like Brett Lee or Harbhajan Singh. As such his runs are to be a bonus, a worthwhile one, but his primary duty is with the ball. In that respect, Jordan's 8 tests so far have been rather disappointing. He doesn't offer much control as such, it would have been ok if he was giving away a few too many runs had he been taking wickets regularly. He hasn't averaged even 3 wickets per test. He might evolve into a better bowler, but at the moment he's not doing enough to be selected.......

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by dummy_half on Wed 06 May 2015, 3:46 pm

Mike

Relating to your above comments on Moeen, there were two interesting comments I heard on TMS during the Windies series. In both cases it was the expert summariser in conversation with Ed Smith (who seems to be excellent at getting these sorts of comment, even if sometimes his description of the actual game action is less colourful than some of his co-commentators):

First one was Boycott, talking about how every time you step up a level as a batsman you have to become incrementally better at playing / judging off stump and just outside, because you are going from facing bowlers who will get the ball in the right place 3 or 4 balls in 6 to 5 or 6 in 6. He commented that the young Yorkshire opener Alex Lees is showing signs of just this improvement.

Second was Graeme Swann, talking about how it took him about 5 or 6 years of County cricket to become a good spin bowler, and also how moving from Northants (a spin-friendly wicket) to Notts improved him. As a young player, he could bowl an assortment of good deliveries, and would take wickets on the turning pitch, but that he really didn't understand the nuances of how he should be bowling at high quality batsmen. Only experience and guidance from old heads taught him how to be a good bowler rather than just a bowler of good balls.

Thought both of the above were relevant to where Moeen is at the moment - probably was pushed into the side a bit sooner than expected and started well but still has areas to work on for both batting and bowling. Maybe also needs to work a bit on attitude, as he is generally quite a quiet guy and maybe could do to develop a more forceful personality, which maybe would allow him to be a more aggressive player especially as a bowler.

A further interesting comment from Swann was that he acknowledges he was initially picked for England much too early, but also that after his initial failure he was left out of the side for at least 2 seasons too long while there were attempts to find a younger option (he suggested Ryan Sidebottom had also been similarly overlooked for too long).

Oh, and I agree with MSP above - Jordan looks to be a bowler who can contribute some runs (would add Swann and Broad to MSP's list), so he has to contribute a bit more with the ball either in terms of being an economical stock bowler or a significant wicket taker. Not quite there yet, even if there is obviously some ability.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Wed 06 May 2015, 6:14 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The averages of Ali are irrelevant to me, I can see he's not good enough for test cricket with either the ball or bat.


have to say i tend to agree with that... think Rashid would be a much better option

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Jetty on Thu 07 May 2015, 2:35 am

Cook X Ballance Bell Root Ali Buttler Woakes Jordan Broad Anderson

As Woakes won't be fit then Stokes remains. We need a right-hand batsman who has a fairly good strike rate to open.

Would be nice to see Wood as the next bowler in. In the meantime he should be playing ODIs as should Stokes.




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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by gboycottnut1 on Thu 07 May 2015, 11:21 am

What about this lineup to represent England in the first test V New Zealand ?

1 Lyth
2 Lees
3 Cook
4 Root
5 Ballance
6 Plunkett (To play the Ian Botham 1981 role)
7 Bairstow
8 Rashid
9 Broad
10 Anderson
11 Shahzad

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Pal Joey on Thu 07 May 2015, 11:23 am

gboycottnut1 wrote:What about this lineup to represent England in the first test V New Zealand ?

1  Lyth
2  Lees
3  Cook
4  Root
5  Ballance
6  Plunkett (To play the Ian Botham 1981 role)
7  Bairstow
8  Rashid
9  Broad
10 Anderson
11 Shahzad

Looks good.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Thu 07 May 2015, 1:51 pm

Bairstow
Rashid
Plunkett

would be a better way round, other than that, pretty good lol.... may even go Brooks ahead of Broad

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 May 2015, 5:13 pm

It is probably worth noting that we're complaining of a spin crisis, but it's more of a worldwide spin crisis...

Australia - Nathan Lyon
New Zealand - Mark Craig
Saffers - Imran Tahir

Not exactly screaming top quality test spinners...

Speaking of NZ what's there likely 1st Test XI?

Rutherford/Guptill
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
McCullum
Anderson
Watling
Southee
Craig
Wagner
Boult

Would be my guess - little short on batting, but the bowling is scary good
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 07 May 2015, 5:37 pm

Is Jeetan Patel still available to NZ? Not sure why he appears to be off the international radar, done well here for Warks.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Thu 07 May 2015, 5:44 pm

Jeetan Patel was called up for the tour to West Indies, a while ago, and declined stating that he wanted to spend more time with his family, effectively ending his international career

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 May 2015, 5:56 pm

Much as I love me some Corey Jane Anderson, he probably isn't gonna play in the tests. Jimmy Neesham is probably the incumbent, and he's probably a better bat as well.

It's a very good NZ team, and I think man for man, they are a better unit than England. Mccullum is coming off the back of a career year in 2014. Williamson is possibly the best #3 in the world, at least top two. Ross Taylor is a quality performer, and Jimmy Neesham is certainly a, somehow, a class #6. Watling is a good operator, although I reckon Buttler is a better bat than him.

Southee, Wagner, Boult is serious bowling for a team that got bundled by Taylor, Gabriel, and Cotrelll
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:00 pm

we didn't get bundled by Cottrell lol... he didn't play in the recent test match series..

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:01 pm

wisden wrote:Jeetan Patel was called up for the tour to West Indies, a while ago, and declined stating that he wanted to spend more time with his family, effectively ending his international career

Thanks, CF, err wisden.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:03 pm

Shannon Gabriel... Sheldon Cotrell. Either or type of death knell
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:04 pm

??? who is CF..... and why do you people keep calling me that???

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:11 pm

What do you mean, "you people" Very Happy
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by wisden on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:18 pm

well if people are going to call me something im not, then how do you expect me to address others?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by ShankyCricket on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:24 pm

Olly wrote:It is probably worth noting that we're complaining of a spin crisis, but it's more of a worldwide spin crisis...

Australia - Nathan Lyon
New Zealand - Mark Craig
Saffers - Imran Tahir

Not exactly screaming top quality test spinners...

Speaking of NZ what's there likely 1st Test XI?

Rutherford/Guptill
Latham
Williamson
Taylor
McCullum
Anderson
Watling
Southee
Craig
Wagner
Boult

Would be my guess - little short on batting, but the bowling is scary good
India - Ravichandran Ashwin (who is worse than Craig and Lyon).

Only SL and Pak have good spin attacks right now. And even then, nowhere near the levels they had in the past.

Regarding the NZ XI, I hope they go in with Henry over Wagner (although totally understandable if they go with the latter). Rutherford/Guptill may depend on the warmups I guess. Guptill probably has a headstart thanks to his WC and early season county form. Rutherford, on the other hand, is the Test incumbent. Guess the warmups will be the deciding factor. Otherwise, you have it spot on I reckon.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Thu 07 May 2015, 6:39 pm

To be fair, it's really to tough to bowl spin now. Many years ago, a team knew if they had a young spinner, an England series represented a decent opportunity to learn the ropes against fairly hapless opposition. Same with a South African series, and probably an Australian one. Now though, every team is so good at playing spin, and the definition of a bad ball has broadened so much. Spin itself is still a rewarding art, once a player has "figured it out", but the apprenticeship procedd is probably the hardest it's ever been
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 07 May 2015, 7:06 pm

kingraf wrote:Much as I love me some Corey Jane Anderson, he probably isn't gonna play in the tests. Jimmy Neesham is probably the incumbent, and he's probably a better bat as well.

It's a very good NZ team, and I think man for man, they are a better unit than England. Mccullum is coming off the back of a career year in 2014. Williamson is possibly the best #3 in the world, at least top two. Ross Taylor is a quality performer, and Jimmy Neesham is certainly a, somehow, a class #6. Watling is a good operator, although I reckon Buttler is a better bat than him.

Southee, Wagner, Boult is serious bowling for a team that got bundled by Taylor, Gabriel, and Cotrelll

I believe Neesham is injured raf, otherwise he'd be in my test team over Anderson too tbf
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Thu 07 May 2015, 7:09 pm

I am not too sure about Martin Guptill the test opener. However, Rutherford has had plenty of chances, but he has been appalling after his debut ton. So think I'd certainly go in with Guptill.
As for Neesham/Anderson, Neesham has scored test runs, but I believe Anderson is a better batsman and as such he should to start. With the ball, they both aren't great.......
Between Buttler and Watling, I think the former is more talented, but if I want the guy to bat for my life, I'll certainly go for Watling. The guy is a man for a crisis...... I would also have Craig batting ahead of Southee. Southee bats a bit like Afridi while Craig is more of a proper bat. They both can score a few runs, but think Craig is a better bet at 8.
Wagner can bowl long spells and is handy with the old ball, so I'd stick with him for the first test at least though Henry is a worthy option to consider.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by ShankyCricket on Thu 07 May 2015, 8:04 pm

I think Neesham is technically a better Test batsman than Anderson tbh but he is injured and not even in the squad. So Anderson obviously plays.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by ShankyCricket on Thu 07 May 2015, 8:06 pm

Henry has been a wicket taking machine in ODIs and has been in superb FC form as well. He also brings a bit of extra pace and firepower, so I'd just go with him over Wagner, especially in a 5 man attack.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by robbo277 on Sat 09 May 2015, 12:15 pm

I think England have identified the players they want to take them forward (other than a second opener) and are doing the right thing by sticking by them. However, at some point you do have to possibly cut your losses on players.

I like Jordan and think he's gone play in one day matches. I'd give him both tests against New Zealand as the 3rd seamer but if he doesn't get a good return I'd be looking elsewhere (Woakes?) for the Ashes and let Jordan continue his development with Sussex.

I think England missed a chance to bring Rashid in against the West Indies when Ali was out and should have left Moeento get some more county games and overs under his belt. But having taken those wickets and been rushed back I think we have to stick with him now. I'd possibly look to bring Rashid in as a second spinner the next time we're on the subcontinent.

As for Stokes, I think we need to stop messing him about. He's a batting all rounder and should play top 6. His bowling is a bonus.

Buttler is the best we have and therefore should continue. He should probably bat 7.

So for me:

Cook, Lyth, Ballance, Bell, Root, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Jordan, Broad, Anderson.

I'd have Woakes ready to take over from Jordan and Hales and Taylor as my batting cover. Rashid as second spinner and Bairstow as keeper cover.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 5:22 pm

KP is 250* against Leicestershire today, nobody else has passed 50 for Surrey....
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Wellington on Mon 11 May 2015, 6:16 pm

KP 311 not out............
Just saying.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Mon 11 May 2015, 6:31 pm

Pietersen 326 not out at stumps. Splendid knock, how would Cook and the cosy club respond?
How would the incoming ECB chief respond? How would the director respond?
Hope they won't continue to make themselves total clowns.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by JDizzle on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:03 pm

Well, according to P***s M****n, Harrison and Strauss are meeting with KP tonight to tell him he will never play for England again.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:05 pm

In that case i'll have lost all respect for Strauss and hope to see him fail in his new role.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:07 pm

That'd be quite frankly ridiculous if true (although with Piers Morgan saying it I'm likely to believe it isn't)
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:12 pm

JDizzle wrote:Well, according to P***s M****n, Harrison and Strauss are meeting with KP tonight to tell him he will never play for England again.

Good.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by JDizzle on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:21 pm

Well, Alec Stewart has confirmed that KP is meeting Harrison/Strauss tonight. And it was arranged before today. So I guess we'll know either way soon.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:36 pm

Think that'll be the end.
KP can at last go out on his terms in a sense. He did everything possible, gave up his IPL deal, showed the world yet again as to what he can do with the bat. Mediocre Engnald don't deserve him.......
Strauss in parts was seemingly appointed to connect with the public, and seems he's set to start with a total disaster on that front.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:40 pm

I see no long-term reason for taking KP back. First of all team morale will be affected, second of all he is 34 (?) and hardly a selection for the future and thirdly what message does it send out about how to conduct yourself when axed from a team?
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

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