England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

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England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by LondonTiger on Mon 04 May 2015, 9:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Less than two weeks to go before the Selectors announce England's squad for the first test, starting on 21st May. At the culmination of the West Indies first innings in Barbados you would have said that the test team had perhaps taken two steps forward and one backwards. The rest of that test were however several huge backward steps as we look to progress.

So what can we expect when the squad is announced in 12 days time? The guys on the current tour who have not played (Lyth, Bairstow, Rashid, Plunkett & Wood) will have just one first class game to try and make their cases for selection - and now you have to say that there are definitely places up for grabs.

Certain to be in Squad:

Cook, Ballance, Bell, Root, Buttler, Broad, Anderson

Cook will continue as captain in the near future, while his runs in the Caribbean have secured his spot at the top of the order for a while yet.
Broad will be included, but I feel his place is increasingly at risk.


Probably in Squad:

Stokes, Ali

Likely to both be in squad. Real question is should both be in the team at the same time? Stokes is surely a 4th seamer, while this tour has reminded us that Ali had a fantastic introduction to International cricket as a bowler, but as someone who has always been a batsman who bowls a bit he is still learning his trade. Should he really be the main spinner?


Likely to miss out

Trott, Jordan, Tredwell

The experiment with Trot at opener is surely over. Jordan has not looked good enough to fill the 3rd seamer role, and does not bat well enough to be 4th seamer. Tredwell can return to Canterbury to be Kent's second choice spinner.



So who will be asked to step up?

At opener Lyth is the next cab on the rank, but will have played bugger all cricket. Robson made a big hundred at the weekend, but bugger all in Middlesex first two CC matches. Hales is scoring runs for Notts, but at number 3.
Plunkett and Wood may be looked at but have the same problem as Lyth with no cricket under their belts. Who is there in county cricket who bowls with real pace, can offer something different and can get good batsmen out?  not sure there is anyone. If fit Woakes may well be looked at.
Finally we need a genuine spinner in the squad. Coach (should he survive) and skipper do not rate Rashid - so who do we look at next?




The good news, for England team, is that NZs preparations will be disrupted with several players not arriving from IPL until the eve of the first test.


NZ Squads:

Test squad:
Brendon McCullum (captain), Corey Anderson, Trent Boult, Doug Bracewell, Mark Craig, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Luke Ronchi (wk), Hamish Rutherford, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Neil Wagner, BJ Watling (wk), Kane Williamson.

ODI and T20 squad:
Brendon McCullum (captain), Corey Anderson, Trent Boult, Grant Elliott, Martin Guptill, Matt Henry, Tom Latham, Mitchell McClenaghan, Nathan McCullum, Adam Milne, Luke Ronchi (wk), Mitchell Santner, Tim Southee, Ross Taylor, Kane Williamson.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:47 pm

Or it highlights that shouldn't have axed in the first place, i'd far rather see Pietersen back and Cook than the other way round.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:51 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I see no long-term reason for taking KP back. First of all team morale will be affected, second of all he is 34 (?) and hardly a selection for the future and thirdly what message does it send out about how to conduct yourself when axed from a team?

You know quite a few of the England players actually like KP - guys like Bell, Broad, Anderson still get along with him. Really it was Cook/Prior who had major issues. 

On the second point they did just select Trott...and he's a batsman if he's good enough to play he will play.

The ECB certainly don't have a leg to stand on re point 3 - they handled the whole thing horrifically (and arguably still are!)
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:53 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I see no long-term reason for taking KP back. First of all team morale will be affected, second of all he is 34 (?) and hardly a selection for the future and thirdly what message does it send out about how to conduct yourself when axed from a team?
Team morale has to be on a high after the WC win and the clean sweep of the West Indies!. Oh wait!

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:55 pm

I'd just like to say I personally wouldn't pick KP for the NZ series, but if Bell has another bad series he should come in for the Ashes.

But I certainly don't think he should be taken away from selection altogether. That'd be the worst move the ECB could make - the general public hardly have great feelings towards them at the moment, this would tip it further towards anarchy (An example of the public's disinterest/anger is shown by the fact there are quite a few tickets to the Ashes/NZ matches available)
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Mon 11 May 2015, 7:58 pm

All that I would say is, well timed KP!.
If they are to come out with disaster, let them fully know what nonsense they are up to!

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:12 pm

They've actually done it again - KP told he won't be picked in the future.

The ECB are actual living clowns
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:16 pm

They told him to go and score runs, he scores a TRIPLE CENTURY FOR CHRIST SAKE and then they say no actually we were lying.

Absolute shambles of an organisation, absolute shambles
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:39 pm

Olly wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I see no long-term reason for taking KP back. First of all team morale will be affected, second of all he is 34 (?) and hardly a selection for the future and thirdly what message does it send out about how to conduct yourself when axed from a team?

You know quite a few of the England players actually like KP - guys like Bell, Broad, Anderson still get along with him. Really it was Cook/Prior who had major issues. 

On the second point they did just select Trott...and he's a batsman if he's good enough to play he will play.

The ECB certainly don't have a leg to stand on re point 3 - they handled the whole thing horrifically (and arguably still are!)
I cannot see how on earth he gets on passably with Anderson and Broad. He labelled them as bullies as far as I recall.

And I would understand the call to get him back in if he was a lot younger. He has perhaps a couple of years left in him at the most.

Best looking to the future and not the past.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:40 pm

One less potential headache for Australia.

I've said it before on here that our players have the highest respect for KP and dare I say it; would have been slightly worried at the prospect of having to deal with probably the most destructive batsman who has ever played for England and who also loves a sporting challenge (in the modern sense of the phrase) and playing the psychological game against the old enemy.

For those who have said that he's unsettled and shown considerable disrespect to many of his former team mates - true - however why shouldn't have Strauss & Co. buried the hatchet, swallowed some pride and at least have allowed KP to have another crack at the Aussies? Big mistake, imo.

I do realise KP has had a difficult and unconventional character to deal with in the dressing room (not forgetting his almost childish 'sense of humour... his high-pitched laugh shreds my ears!) but maybe he would have been, once again, the best person to show the others how to well and truly rattle the Aussie's cage. I'm sure our blokes will now be collectively having a jolly good 'howl' of relief; knowing he won't be part of their plans.

The England management team should have taken a page from KP's book (figuratively, not literally of course) and have taken the risk with him. After all, if they are serious about wanting to firstly take on a rapidly improving and confident NZ side and then wrestling the Mace back from Australia later in the summer; then why not take a punt with the guy?


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:43 pm

Come on New Zealand and Australia is all I can say, I am done with the England cricket team, incompetence of the highest order.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:45 pm

I would say England need a long-term fix and that isn't KP. Nobody knows the full facts about this as how do we know the present players have shown reservations having him back or perhaps the ECB are purely more interested in the future and not the past.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Pal Joey on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:47 pm

Harrier... please excuse my late editing. It's difficult referring to KP in the conditional perfect tense! It feels quite awkward to be talking like this.

Craig, 34 is not too old at all. At least a few seasons left in the guy. ECB should be concerned with the now... not the future nor the past.


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 11 May 2015, 10:48 pm

Test cricket is about the here and now, you pick the best available players not someone who might but won't be up to it in a few years time.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Mon 11 May 2015, 11:18 pm

Even if his age weren't an issue then you are overlooking what effect his inclusion will have in the dressing room. Even by his own admission it was far from great so what is going to change now to make him get on with people he has bad-mouthed in his book.

I will say this though - whatever the decision is the ECB have handled this, like the Moores sacking, appallingly.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 11 May 2015, 11:19 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I would say England need a long-term fix and that isn't KP. Nobody knows the full facts about this as how do we know the present players have shown reservations having him back or perhaps the ECB are purely more interested in the future and not the past.

Who cares if the players have reservations they're not the ones who pick the bloody team!! They're paid to win cricket matches
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Duty281 on Mon 11 May 2015, 11:31 pm

It's one triple century against a side who haven't won a solitary game since September 2012!

That doesn't make him the saviour!

His first first-class century since summer 2013, I believe, as well.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Mon 11 May 2015, 11:35 pm

He's still England's best batsmen Duty and by some distance at that.

If the other players can't handle a bit of tension in the dressing room then sod them they clearly don't have the required mentality for test cricket, I don't if he's popular but he is and always has been a fine batsmen.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Liam on Mon 11 May 2015, 11:42 pm

I'm torn on this. On the one hand, he shouldn't have been axed in the first place. He was actually the highest scoring batsmen in the disaster down under. He wasn't prolific, but he did score runs unlike many other of england's batsmen. he's gone away to county cricket, turned down the IPL and has now hit a triple century whilst making a few starts and looking in decent knick. You've got young up and coming batsmen like Root and Ballance, Buttler and Stokes who i'm sure would love someone like KP in the dressing room to gain advice from. I've always got the impression KP wants to help the younger players and is always willing to give advice, hardly damaging the team environment? Also annoyed that Strauss was the man to do it, considering their past. Seems a bit of a revenge story if you ask me.

On the other hand, like Trott, I don't see the point in him coming back now. If he hadn't released his book then maybe I would feel different. That burnt his bridges no matter what, you can't come back from that really i'm afraid. I'd rather see the current batsmen backed, with Lyth coming in to open with Cook the batsmen (Not captain, i'd give it to root personally).

All in all, its been a shambles, the story of english cricket for the past year and a bit. Major changes need to happen still, with Cook dropped as captain and Gillespe brought in as coach for the ashes.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Tue 12 May 2015, 7:33 am

Tbh, I'm more in the Duty school of thought. He just scored a triple century, sure. But its not exactly Johnson and Co. That said, KP probably can feel aggrieved.

The biography wasn't particularly bright mind you
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 12 May 2015, 12:10 pm

Liam wrote: You've got young up and coming batsmen like Root and Ballance, Buttler and Stokes who i'm sure would love someone like KP in the dressing room to gain advice from.

Weeeeeelllll. Not sure how Stokes got on with him in Australia, but the Yorkshire lads came back from Australia talking about how much help and advice they got from Bell. Plus most on here should have read about how Pietersen treated James Taylor.

Now this last innings is a reminder of the days when Pietersen was the best batsman in the country, though the fact he was dropped four times early on and Leicestershire have the worst bowling attack in the country must be taken into account.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Tue 12 May 2015, 1:48 pm

So it seems KP is no longer "banned" ...but isn't in the management's immediate plans - for trust issues rather than form.   Bit different from the rumours ; but practically speaking not much change. (Actually this formula would have been far better applied in early 2014 than the mess that was made )
To be honest I didn't think he had much chance of a return this summer ; and even a remarkable innings like this one would surely need to be backed up by further good form for him even to be considered. And of course he is off back to the hit and giggle circus shortly , so the timing probably wouldn't have worked for him.
I suppose it leaves open the possibility that he might earn a recall after the Ashes series ( highly unlikely , but still) if he were to continue to make runs in the CC ...sort of serving a bit more penance for his crimes Smile
In a way , that constitutes a test of his supposed burning desire to get back in an England shirt : does he want it enough to keep playing for Surrey for the whole season - and nominally beyond ?
Is it fair to him ? Perhaps not...but it is probably the best he could hope for after tipping a bucket on a host of former teammates in his book. After once being brought back from the cold previously , one should not forget.

Do you know , I would honestly love to see the man batting for England again ; but not if his return were to cause serious problems within the playing group. (And I cannot judge whether it would or not , any more than anyone else on here can - we just don't know what has gone on in that dressing room.)  I hear people laugh about prioritizing team harmony over pure runs and wickets : but when you have a team that possesses only a handful of experienced Test class players and is clearly still fragile in terms of confidence , I can see why any manager would be a bit wary of reintroducing a player who , it can hardly be denied , has a bit of history in the "disruptive influence" area.
Put it this way : it would be great if he came back , settled his differences with whoever is still in the team , and gave us all another taste of his undoubted talent. But I don't want that to come about at the cost of a young and improving Ballance , say ; or moving Root back to open ; or ditching the fifth bowler ...so not too much room to spare , is there ?
I resolved not to feed the Pietersen frenzy a while back ...so this will be the extent of my contribution to the debate. But I hope he makes many more runs for you Surrey fans...

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by king_carlos on Tue 12 May 2015, 3:26 pm

kingraf wrote:Tbh, I'm more in the Duty school of thought. He just scored a triple century, sure. But its not exactly Johnson and Co. That said, KP probably can feel aggrieved.

The biography wasn't particularly bright mind you

My thoughts as well kingraf.

The fallout started in 2012 with his retirement from ODI and T20 cricket (whilst complaining that he still wanted to play T20 but hated ODIs). Then he reversed that decision saying he 'might' play ODIs in the future but not really committing to the team. At the end of the summer we then had the post 2nd test vs SA interview in which he stated he may be retiring altogether and that issues in the dressing room needed to be resolved. Finally we then had the text messages with the SA dressing room about Strauss, talks with ECB about his future and that bizarre YouTube interview stating his commitment to all 3 forms of the game.

Following Struass' departure he then returned for the India tour under Cook during which he performed well in a rare win on the subcontinent for England and played in the NZ tour away, followed by the home Ashes series win. All this without incident.

Then came the disastrous Ashes tour in which it is fair to say KP looked disinterested towards the end, however given how the tour had gone most fans felt many players were. Following this tour and the view that he had a negative impact on the dressing room he was fired by the ECB.

Having been fired he then released an autobiography slating the dressing room and certain players still in the side to this day.

Now, of the above you'd have to say that between the Strauss fallout in '12 and the autobiography there isn't really anything that you can solely say in KPs sole fault. The text messages were incredibly stupid from him but given he was brought straight back in when Cook became captain and performed well in a successful side it's pretty clear the team got over it back then.

He definitely looked disinterested in that 5th Ashes test but a few of the senior players did. Let's face facts, it wasn't only KP who seemed to have forgotten how to deal with defeat having played in a successful side for so long! I think he was used as a bit of a scapegoat following that Ashes tour, and can rightly feel aggrieved for that. However the final straw it now feels was the autobiography and when releasing that so soon after his retirement he must have known he was putting the final nail in his own coffin.

For what it's worth I think it's worth noting that most of this fiasco could have been avoided had the ECB just waited until the new coach and selectors were put in place following the Ashes tour and then allowed them to drop KP if he wasn't wanted by the set-up. By firing Pietersen as they did the ECB created this continuing problem for themselves.


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Tue 12 May 2015, 3:27 pm

ECB proving themselves to be made of utter clowns and lyers. The new director proving himself to be a vindictive little joker!. Or should I call you 'an absolute ****', Andrew?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by JDizzle on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:19 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Liam wrote: You've got young up and coming batsmen like Root and Ballance, Buttler and Stokes who i'm sure would love someone like KP in the dressing room to gain advice from.  

Weeeeeelllll. Not sure how Stokes got on with him in Australia, but the Yorkshire lads came back from Australia talking about how much help and advice they got from Bell. Plus most on here should have read about how Pietersen treated James Taylor.

Now this last innings is a reminder of the days when Pietersen was the best batsman in the country, though the fact he was dropped four times early on and Leicestershire have the worst bowling attack in the country must be taken into account.

Entirely circumstantially, I also heard along many grapevines that Root and Ballance don't particularly get along with KP. Which there is nothing wrong with, not everyone has to be best mates with everyone and Root/Ballance might just respond better to Bell's advice, but it does irk me when people suggest KP is great with younger players, like it is 100% fact and he is some sort of oracle for young batsmen. Undoubtedly he'll help plenty of them, but just as many won't respond well to his advice.

Admittedly, being a James Taylor fan boy, I don't really like KP and I wouldn't have had him back post 2012. But I also agree with the general sentiment the ECB have handled this atrociously, as is sadly becoming par for the course.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:22 pm

JDizzle wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Liam wrote: You've got young up and coming batsmen like Root and Ballance, Buttler and Stokes who i'm sure would love someone like KP in the dressing room to gain advice from.  

Weeeeeelllll. Not sure how Stokes got on with him in Australia, but the Yorkshire lads came back from Australia talking about how much help and advice they got from Bell. Plus most on here should have read about how Pietersen treated James Taylor.

Now this last innings is a reminder of the days when Pietersen was the best batsman in the country, though the fact he was dropped four times early on and Leicestershire have the worst bowling attack in the country must be taken into account.



Admittedly, being a James Taylor fan boy, I don't really like KP and I wouldn't have had him back post 2012. But I also agree with the general sentiment the ECB have handled this atrociously, as is sadly becoming par for the course.

On that I think everyone is in agreement here. Right and only decision (IMO) in my book but like the Peter Moores affair terribly and utterly ineptly handled.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 12 May 2015, 9:51 pm

The thing that I really, honestly, cannot get my head round is this.

If they don't trust him to play in the side, why on earth did they offer him a role with the one day side?
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 12 May 2015, 10:25 pm

Olly wrote:The thing that I really, honestly, cannot get my head round is this.

If they don't trust him to play in the side, why on earth did they offer him a role with the one day side?

I don't know but I do know there is no surprise at the Oval that he turned the offer down.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:01 pm

kingraf wrote:Tbh, I'm more in the Duty school of thought. He just scored a triple century, sure. But its not exactly Johnson and Co. That said, KP probably can feel aggrieved.

The biography wasn't particularly bright mind you

Nor was laughing at his captain with the opposition whilst sat in the dressing room apparently. Especially when said captain got made director.

This is KPs problem all along, he just cant see past his own point of view and ego and absolutely believes his hype. His close links with the media (espeiclaly murdochs) only makes it worse with them massing his ego and feeding false flags both ways.

As it was one person in the ECB, who isnt the decision maker on the subject, had made one vague intimation that KP might be able to get back in ....ignoring that the then coach, captain and many team mates cant abide him. It was always press spin that he had a chance, and he failed to listen to the statements being made by those who actually would have final word on his inclusion.
Quite how he then thought he still had a chance of selection when Strauss was put in charge is quite beyond me. Obviously he is as delusional as his fanboys.

As Strauss said this goes back beyond his book and is down to him being fundamentally disliked by a number of people hes worked with, because (in Strauss's words) hes a c*nt.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 12 May 2015, 11:34 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
kingraf wrote:Tbh, I'm more in the Duty school of thought. He just scored a triple century, sure. But its not exactly Johnson and Co. That said, KP probably can feel aggrieved.

The biography wasn't particularly bright mind you

Nor was laughing at his captain with the opposition whilst sat in the dressing room apparently. Especially when said captain got made director.

This is KPs problem all along, he just cant see past his own point of view and ego and absolutely believes his hype. His close links with the media (espeiclaly murdochs) only makes it worse with them massing his ego and feeding false flags both ways.

As it was one person in the ECB, who isnt the decision maker on the subject, had made one vague intimation that KP might be able to get back in ....ignoring that the then coach, captain and many team mates cant abide him. It was always press spin that he had a chance, and he failed to listen to the statements being made by those who actually would have final word on his inclusion.
Quite how he then thought he still had a chance of selection when Strauss was put in charge is quite beyond me. Obviously he is as delusional as his fanboys.

As Strauss said this goes back beyond his book and is down to him being fundamentally disliked by a number of people hes worked with, because (in Strauss's words) hes a c*nt.

Exactly. thumbsup

In any case it is a given that in all places of work I know of if you go onto Facebook/Twitter or any other social media outlet and make derogatory remarks about management or your company then it is a certain sackable offence. No comebacks and no appeals - you are out the door. Well here KP wrote a ruddy book full of derogatory stuff about team-mates - that therefore is a sackable offencce on its own so disqualifies you from regaining employment there. And lets not forget that he had already transgressed before in any case and been given another chance.

It is irrefutable. He does not have a leg to stand on.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 7:29 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Gooseberry wrote:
kingraf wrote:Tbh, I'm more in the Duty school of thought. He just scored a triple century, sure. But its not exactly Johnson and Co. That said, KP probably can feel aggrieved.

The biography wasn't particularly bright mind you

Nor was laughing at his captain with the opposition whilst sat in the dressing room apparently. Especially when said captain got made director.

This is KPs problem all along, he just cant see past his own point of view and ego and absolutely believes his hype. His close links with the media (espeiclaly murdochs) only makes it worse with them massing his ego and feeding false flags both ways.

As it was one person in the ECB, who isnt the decision maker on the subject, had made one vague intimation that KP might be able to get back in ....ignoring that the then coach, captain and many team mates cant abide him. It was always press spin that he had a chance, and he failed to listen to the statements being made by those who actually would have final word on his inclusion.
Quite how he then thought he still had a chance of selection when Strauss was put in charge is quite beyond me. Obviously he is as delusional as his fanboys.

As Strauss said this goes back beyond his book and is down to him being fundamentally disliked by a number of people hes worked with, because (in Strauss's words) hes a c*nt.

Exactly. thumbsup

In any case it is a given that in all places of work I know of if you go onto Facebook/Twitter or any other social media outlet and make derogatory remarks about management or your company then it is a certain sackable offence. No comebacks and no appeals - you are out the door. Well here KP wrote a ruddy book full of derogatory stuff about team-mates - that therefore is a sackable offencce on its own so disqualifies you from regaining employment there. And lets not forget that he had already transgressed before in any case and been given another chance.

It is irrefutable. He does not have a leg to stand on.
I see that's why Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, Matt Prior and Tim Bresnan, were all banned from playing for England since 2012 as some of them helped create the paroty twitter account that insulted Kevin Pietersen and some of them followed it....... #strausslogic is infectious!!!


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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Wed 13 May 2015, 8:06 am

[/quote]
I see that's why Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, Matt Prior and Tim Bresnan, were all banned from playing for England since 2012 as some of them helped create the parity twitter account that insulted Kevin Pietersen and some of them followed it....... #strausslogic is infectious!!![/quote]

Did they help create it?

Not according to the players themselves:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/kevin-pietersen-autobiography-tim-bresnan-joins-graeme-swann-and-stuart-broad-in-100-denying-involvement-in-fake-pietersen-account-9784083.html

Or the guy who set up the account:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/9473845/Kevin-Pietersen-parody-Twitter-KP-Genius-account-was-me-says-cricket-fan.html

Or cricinfo:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-south-africa-2012/content/story/576497.html

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 8:34 am

The Pleyers themselves, The guy himself, Hoggie, don't think I need to really say anything more on that to someone who has been following the game long enough like you. And even that wouldn't pass the test of commonsense either. Where was this account created? What were the players doing with it anyways?
And as for the cricinfo article, it only says that it was not managed by a player.......
Anyways, its all in the past, I mentioned it because people were talking endlessly about textgate and Pietersen's book as if it all existed without a backdrop.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Wed 13 May 2015, 8:44 am

msp83 wrote:The Pleyers themselves, The guy himself, Hoggie, don't think I need to really say anything more on that to someone who has been following the game long enough like you.

So they're all lying? Any evidence of that, or are you simply dismissing them because it doesn't support your argument?
As for backdrop. If the players WERE involved in the fake account (which I'm not saying they were), do you think they did it because they're all just naturally bullies who chose to pick on poor old KP, or do you think they did it because KP was getting on their nerves for some reason or another?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 8:48 am

Any evidence that they are indeed speaking the truth? Or do you want to believe them because that supports your case?
KP might have been getting on the nerves of some players, some of them might have been getting on his nerves, any which way he's not the only party involved....... And again, why was he sacked in 2014? What for?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Wed 13 May 2015, 9:06 am

msp83 wrote:And again, why was he sacked in 2014? What for?

Don't know. Nobody outside of the England set-up really does, probably. It would strike me as odd, however, that so many people, some of whom had been perfectly willing to give KP another chance after textgate, should take or support such a, frankly, unprecedented decision, knowing the backlash they would face, without having a very good reason.
Now, the way they've handled it, particularly on the PR side, has been awful, but I would be surprised if the decision to sack KP was based on nothing more than the fact that he was a bit annoying.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 9:42 am

Michael Vaughan, Andrew Flintoff, Steve Harmison, Paul Collingwood, Eoin Morgan, Ashley Gyles, all teammates of KP and most having held leadership positions with sides involving Pietersen are supporting him. So this theory of he being a problem for all is a total myth.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by kingraf on Wed 13 May 2015, 9:54 am

I thought the whole 34 average played a role? Being a force of personality is great... But you then have to perform. Warne would have been dropped without question after his transgressions... But he kept running through hapless English sides every Ashes. KP has never been dominant on that level. He's only had one year with an average significantly above 50. You look at the really great players of the era... Kallis had two separate runs where he scored five centuries in as many games. Ponting had that crazy run in 2001-2 where he nailed 11 centuries in 22 Tests. Even a rung down, you've got a guy like Clarke. 14 centuries in his last 40 Tests, KP has 7 in his last 50. That's not good enough. Ballance averages near 60 having taken to Test cricket like a duck to water. Root averages >50. Bell is probably the weakest middle order gun, but he has 11 centuries in his last 45. Given the fact that all pretenders to the throne are scoring at CC as well... who exactly do you want dropped? England have taken the decision to bat with five specialist batters, and two all rounders. The wisdom of the decision can be questioned, but as that's the reality, and KP isn't an opener... there is no viable route back, for this summer.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Wed 13 May 2015, 9:56 am

msp83 wrote:Michael Vaughan, Andrew Flintoff, Steve Harmison, Paul Collingwood, Eoin Morgan, Ashley Gyles, all teammates of KP and most having held leadership positions with sides involving Pietersen are supporting him. So this theory of he being a problem for all is a total myth.

Didn't say it was a problem for all. It does, however, seem to have been a problem to a number of people actually involved in the last Ashes series, and their views certainly seem to have been given a great deal of credence by those in charge of the ECB.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:03 am

So why do they have a problem? At least in 2012, there was a reasonable explanation, what was it in 2014? Other than they need a face saver after the whitewash? By sacking Pietersen, they successfully diverted a lot of questions that would have come their way?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:07 am

kingraf wrote:I thought the whole 34 average played a role? Being a force of personality is great... But you then have to perform. Warne would have been dropped without question after his transgressions... But he kept running through hapless English sides every Ashes. KP has never been dominant on that level. He's only had one year with an average significantly above 50. You look at the really great players of the era... Kallis had two separate runs where he scored five centuries in as many games. Ponting had that crazy run in 2001-2 where he nailed 11 centuries in 22 Tests. Even a rung down, you've got a guy like Clarke. 14 centuries in his last 40 Tests, KP has 7 in his last 50. That's not good enough. Ballance averages near 60 having taken to Test cricket like a duck to water. Root averages >50. Bell is probably the weakest middle order gun, but he has 11 centuries in his last 45. Given the fact that all pretenders to the throne are scoring at CC as well... who exactly do you want dropped? England have taken the decision to bat with five specialist batters, and two all rounders. The wisdom of the decision can be questioned, but as that's the reality, and KP isn't an opener... there is no viable route back, for this summer.
So how many batsmen have England produced in the league of Sachin, Lara, Ponting, Kallis or even Clarke in the last 40 years? Who would be the England players who can even be mentioned in that kind of a discussion?
And anyways, according to #strausslogic, its not form of KP or the players in the side that is the issue. Had they said there is no opening fo KP at the moment as the others are doing alright, that would still have been OK. but........

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:12 am

Can I make it any clearer?

Golden rule of employment don't use social media in s derogatory manner likely to put your company into disrepute. KP's book did that and nothing will ever change that. Career over.
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:31 am

As this thread is supposedly about the England v NZ Test series I should perhaps point out that there was never any chance of Pietersen being selected for England in this as he will be playing for his franchise outfit in a commercial t20 competition...

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by Stella on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:36 am

alfie wrote:As this thread is supposedly about the England v NZ Test series I should perhaps point out that there was never any chance of Pietersen being selected for England in this as he will be playing for his franchise outfit in a commercial t20 competition...

very true. I blame the IPL OK
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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:48 am

alfie wrote:As this thread is supposedly about the England v NZ Test series I should perhaps point out that there was never any chance of Pietersen being selected for England in this as he will be playing for his franchise outfit in a commercial t20 competition...

Yep, Alfie, but the ECB and various of their leading figures have created a situation whereby this series will now be dominated by a player not playing in it. So not too surprising some of us harp on about it here.

Btw, I wouldn't particularly criticise Pietersen for being unavailable for the NZ series. As I understand it, following Graves' comments and then a request from Pietersen to his IPL side, they were prepared to release him from his IPL contract for the opening rounds of that tournament (thus allowing him to return to a county side as Graves wanted) but not the final stages if they got there (which they duly did). I think it's reasonable to assume that if Graves or someone similar had spoken along the same lines earlier, Pietersen would not have signed an IPL contract for this year.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by VTR on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:54 am

alfie wrote:As this thread is supposedly about the England v NZ Test series I should perhaps point out that there was never any chance of Pietersen being selected for England in this as he will be playing for his franchise outfit in a commercial t20 competition...

Its a warm up thread for a whole summer of being told, mainly by India supporters (not sure why they care so much?) of the difference KP would have made every time England slip up!

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 13 May 2015, 10:57 am

Guildford : believe it or not , I wasn't actually intending that as a criticism of Pietersen...merely trying to steer this thread back to its ostensible purpose (there is a dedicated KP thread - only one ? Smile - and I thought it would be nice to centralize activities...

I really don't blame him for taking up an IPL contract. But I think someone earlier on was calling for his immediate return to the team ; and as I say , that was not practical.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 13 May 2015, 11:04 am

That's fine, sure, Alfie.

I'll say a bit more to you about Pietersen on the ''Cut Nose'' thread.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by alfie on Wed 13 May 2015, 11:06 am

guildfordbat wrote:That's fine, sure, Alfie.

I'll say a bit more to you about Pietersen on the ''Cut Nose'' thread.

Can hardly wait . Will hurry across Smile

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by king_carlos on Wed 13 May 2015, 4:47 pm

Back in the county championship:

- Rashid bounced back well from a lack of recent cricket with 8-118 in Yorks win against Hampshire. He did pick up a duck in his innings though.

- Bairstow scored a century and fifty in either innings with both coming in good time - the 102 from 106 balls.

- Lyth got a fifty in the first innings but only 23 in the second innings as Yorks seemed to look to bat quickly to force the declaration.

- Mark Wood picked up match figures of 6 for 74 with the bonus of 66 4th innings runs as nightwatchmen to help Durham to victory over Notts.

- Meanwhile the ever dependable Chris Rushworth took match figures of 5 for 86 as he played a support role this time round. I've stated it before but I really don't understand how he hasn't at least had a look in with the Lions following his consistency over the last 3/4 seasons. Combine that to Englands desperate need for a dependable 3rd seamer to support Anderson/Broad and lock up an end I honestly think we're missing a trick there.

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

Post by msp83 on Wed 13 May 2015, 4:51 pm

Hope Rashid will be trusted for the New Zealand tests. Has Moeen Ali been involved in any county games?

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Re: England vs New Zealand Test Series - May/June 2015

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