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Should RG have a Wimbledon style forumula?

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Post by temporary21 Wed May 06, 2015 1:40 am

Watching Madrid,  a commentator was asked whether he thought it was right that Nadal might be outside the top 4 seeds for RG. Long story short he thought he could see both sides of the coin, which I was very surprised at.

Surely you must go on the rankings? How would that be fair to Nishikori to go "were bumping you down cause by some weird special exemption we want to put Nadal in the top 4". The idea of Wimbleodons special formula, putting more emphasis on grass points, was raised.

Anyone else think the same thing would be ok for RG? I dont personally think so, emphasis on grass points for Wimby makes sense because of how little grass court tennis there is, its nice for specialists on the surface to get more bang for their grassy buck when it comes down to the only big grass tourny. On clay tough theres ample points for good clay court players to get a decent ranking.


Last edited by temporary21 on Wed May 06, 2015 1:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Mad for Chelsea Wed May 06, 2015 1:52 am

I think you pretty much nail it. The reason Wimbledon has its special formula is because the better players basically play two grass court tournaments et most, one of which is a 250 tournament, so not many points. By contrast, the clay season is much longer: most play 3 Masters + RG, and possibly another smaller tournament in there somewhere.

The reason Nadal has slipped down the rankings is partly at least because he's had a fairly average start to the clay season. From a rankings viewpoint there's not a huge difference between being seeded 5-8 and being seeded 9-12 in any case, and Nadal's form over the last year doesn't warrant him currently being seeded top 4, surely?

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Post by hawkeye Wed May 06, 2015 2:46 am

There should be some consistency.

For example Wimbledon can see fit to boost Jerzy Janowicz seeding to 15 when he was ranked 24 in 2014 on the back of one draw opening up run to the semi's in the previous years tournament (it included facing a player ranked 130 in the quarters). Janowicz according to ATP stats has still only played 14 matches on grass (won 9 lost 4). Can't remember too many "it can't be fair" worries about players ranked 16 - 23 then?

It then looks a little incongruous when RG have made it clear that despite having the same powers as Wimbledon they don't think it fitting to seed their 9 times champion more appropriately. If Nishikori or Murray had 2 or 3 RG titles to their name concern about their supposed earned right to be seeded higher than Nadal would look more reasonable Very Happy

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Post by JuliusHMarx Wed May 06, 2015 2:54 am

I don't think there is any concern from anyone about anybody on this thread except the odd Rafa fan Wink

temp seems to have got it pretty much spot on.

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Post by hawkeye Wed May 06, 2015 3:07 am

JuliusHMarx wrote:I don't think there is any concern from anyone about anybody on this thread except the odd Rafa fan Wink

temp seems to have got it pretty much spot on.

Laugh Why don't you just remove the comment facility then? More fun to make snark remarks and shut down any discussion Wink

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Post by JuliusHMarx Wed May 06, 2015 3:28 am

Well, if you can make snark comments about Murray fans (which I'm happy for you to do) then surely I can make similar comments about Rafa fans.
Do you want me to shut down discussion by stopping people from agreeing with an OP?
It's all in good fun as far as I'm concerned.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed May 06, 2015 7:08 am

Well, if you can make snark comments about Murray fans (which I'm happy for you to do) then surely I can make similar comments about Rafa fans.


:laugh:Yeah why not?? why change the habit of a lifetime !!

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Post by JuliusHMarx Wed May 06, 2015 7:21 am

No-one on here changes Haddie - not hawkeye, not you, not me.
It's all taken in jest I hope.

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Post by Haddie-nuff Wed May 06, 2015 8:19 am

Nothing is forever

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Post by JuliusHMarx Wed May 06, 2015 8:31 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:Nothing is forever

Diamonds?

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Post by CaledonianCraig Wed May 06, 2015 8:43 am

The grass court season is miniscule so such a seeding system that they employ is necessary. The clay court season perhaps has three or four times as much tournaments so more than enough to just go by the ranking system otherwise should they not also just do the same as well with hard court tournaments as well? Of course not. In short you have to draw the line somewhere.
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Post by ZZ Wed May 06, 2015 10:04 am

9 times RG champion,

reining champion

only lost once due to injury

longest winning street in history

most masters ever on clay

beats the big nose like a red hared step child.

I think its obvious that RG needs to look at the seedings very carefully this year. otherwise its gona be a farce

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Post by temporary21 Wed May 06, 2015 10:26 am

Shall we all keep the snark down to a bare minimum eh gents? Seems like a lot are in agreement. The idea of making your court specific points count more is interesting for slams, but it would need to be on every slam type, and thats not dealing with the inbalance of surfaces.

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Post by summerblues Wed May 06, 2015 1:57 pm

I have no problem with any of the slams using formulas to adjust the seeding.  However, if they do, I would want it to be a set formula (no discretion allowed) and it should be advertised well ahead of time.

No last minute adjustments to deal with cases like Nadal this year - even though it may create an unbalanced draw.  Once you start making ad hoc adjustments, you are opening it up to possible arbitrary decisions.

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Post by YvonneT Wed May 06, 2015 11:40 pm

My thoughts are pretty much the same as summerblues (and the same as when discussed in 2013).

It's better that the seeding system is clear and published than be open to the preferences of individuals at each of the slams (or any other tournaments), even if this does sometimes produce unbalanced draws.

While I don't have an issue with including a points addition for previous clay court success, I don't think that's the specific issue in Nadal's case - the reason he is going to be seeded lower than you might feel he should is due to the absence/illness throughout non-clay parts of the last 12 months. If anything, that's a case for using some sort of protected ranking for seeded purposes - but it would need to be situational. For example, Nadal missed the second half of the 2012 season and after the first few tournaments in 2013, it was clear his level was back pretty close to his past form; in the same situation in 2015, this isn't evident - so maybe the points gained in the first few tournaments from an absence should be proportioned up to account, even in part, for the absence. If say, Del Potro comes back in similar winning form then he would get the same boost but if his results are not that great, he'd get very little boost from proportioning them up. I'm not so convinced by this that I'm advocating it, but it's more aimed at the problem than a Wimbledon type surface specific formula.

I also don't think thoughts on this issue should split depending on whether you're a Nadal fans or not - it's as much (if not more) the other players and the tournament itself that could suffer with an imbalanced draw.

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Post by YvonneT Wed May 06, 2015 11:44 pm

I'd also say that maybe Wimbledon need to consider their formula with the extended grass season and with Queens/Halle becoming ATP500s. It's maybe over-generous in today's conditions.

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Post by It Must Be Love Wed May 06, 2015 11:54 pm

Frankly the way Nadal's playing atm, he should be happy he's seeded higher than Fognini.

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Post by Silver Thu May 07, 2015 2:13 am

hawkeye wrote:There should be some consistency.

For example Wimbledon can see fit to boost Jerzy Janowicz seeding to 15 when he was ranked 24 in 2014 on the back of one draw opening up run to the semi's in the previous years tournament (it included facing a player ranked 130 in the quarters). Janowicz according to ATP stats has still only played 14 matches on grass (won 9 lost 4). Can't remember too many "it can't be fair" worries about players ranked 16 - 23 then?

It then looks a little incongruous when RG have made it clear that despite having the same powers as Wimbledon they don't think it fitting to seed their 9 times champion more appropriately. If Nishikori or Murray had 2 or 3 RG titles to their name concern about their supposed earned right to be seeded higher than Nadal would look more reasonable Very Happy

Any comment on the counter-argument that Falzy presented in the OP?

That is, that the formula needs to be used due to the lack of grass court tournaments available throughout the year. Clay doesn't have the same issue.

It is crazy that Nadal could be outside the top four, but that's the way the rankings may fall. As SB and Yvonne have said, bumping him arbitrarily would have disastrous implications for virtually every other tournament.

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Post by Josiah Maiestas Thu May 07, 2015 2:46 am

ZZ wrote:9 times RG champion,

reining champion

only lost once due to injury

longest winning street in history

most masters ever on clay

beats the big nose like a red hared step child.

I think its obvious that RG needs to look at the seedings very carefully this year. otherwise its gona be a farce
This isn't school no more champ. laughing

The rankings should not be judged per surface even if some of the star players deserve a top 4 place, it should always be about the year and the form guide rather than the history of the player.
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Post by Born Slippy Thu May 07, 2015 5:32 am

I think there is scope for a formula to alter seedings for RG. I don't agree that the fact there are more clay than grass events makes it redundant. As a commitment player only 4 of the 13 events worth 1000 or more points are on clay. A player who is good on hard courts will therefore be favoured.

As there are 4 main events on clay each year it would also be far easier to have a fair system - the Wimbledon seeding is very reactive to one good run.

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Post by Silver Thu May 07, 2015 6:54 am

Born Slippy wrote:I think there is scope for a formula to alter seedings for RG. I don't agree that the fact there are more clay than grass events makes it redundant. As a commitment player only 4 of the 13 events worth 1000 or more points are on clay. A player who is good on hard courts will therefore be favoured.

As there are 4 main events on clay each year it would also be far easier to have a fair system - the Wimbledon seeding is very reactive to one good run.

Would you favour removing the grass seeding, as well as implementing the clay one? Given that the former is more reactive to one good run.

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Post by CaledonianCraig Thu May 07, 2015 7:02 am

And also it then has to be pondered to go universal and include hard courts in this form of working out slam seedings. I mean we have seen players slip down the rankings by finishing their season early due to injury so have slid down the rankings by the time the Australian Open has come around. In other words where do we stop?
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Post by erictheblueuk Fri May 08, 2015 9:42 am

Seedings are based on merit and Nadal's form this year has been patchy, Nadal himself knows this:-

"Madrid 2015 Preview Interview Nadal":-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsIeI2IwR7Y
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Post by Born Slippy Fri May 08, 2015 5:49 pm

Silver wrote:
Born Slippy wrote:I think there is scope for a formula to alter seedings for RG. I don't agree that the fact there are more clay than grass events makes it redundant. As a commitment player only 4 of the 13 events worth 1000 or more points are on clay. A player who is good on hard courts will therefore be favoured.

As there are 4 main events on clay each year it would also be far easier to have a fair system - the Wimbledon seeding is very reactive to one good run.

Would you favour removing the grass seeding, as well as implementing the clay one? Given that the former is more reactive to one good run.

No, I would have both. I don't think the grass one is as important in today's game (most good hard-courters can translate their games easily to grass). However, there are still some seeds who should sensibly be moved.

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Post by Born Slippy Fri May 08, 2015 5:57 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:And also it then has to be pondered to go universal and include hard courts in this form of working out slam seedings. I mean we have seen players slip down the rankings by finishing their season early due to injury so have slid down the rankings  by the time the Australian Open has come around. In other words where do we stop?

But this isn't to deal with injuries. That is dealt with by protected rankings (and personally I would seed based on those protected rankings). With so many big events on hard, it is unlikely a hard court specialist will be far out of position in the rankings.

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