England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

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England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by LondonTiger on Wed May 27, 2015 2:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

After an England win that for much of the first four days looked unlikely we move up to Leeds for round 2.

England have added Plunkett to the squad either as cover for Wood, who has a poor fitness record, or maybe because the senior seamers may be a touch tired. Very much doubt we will see any changes to the starting XI however. Selectors will be hoping that Adam Lyth can get some runs at his home ground as lord alone knows where they go next. Lyth and Ballance will both be hoping to be in the runs - and England need them to as you cannot keep losing 3 or 4 cheap top order wickets.

New Zealand have their own issues. Anderson and Watling have caused the physios some concern, Craig did not look like an internationalk spinner and with Anderson's issues the 3 main seamers were perhaps overbowled.


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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:14 pm

So in all Ali has had one good series with the ball (a year ago now) and it is enough to keep him in the side? I am no CC specialist but stats suggest Rashid is better in all categories than Ali for wickets taken, wicket hauls, economy rate and strike rate. Yes we know Rashid figures are CC-based but Ali's do contain his CC figures as well and the difference in the stats is eye-opening. I am more inclined to believe the selectors are too won over by Ali with the bat to contemplate keeping him in because he is the best spin option. Stats say he certainly isn't that.
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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by alfie on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:32 pm

Not quite saying that , Craig. Just that the sample is small so far ; does include some serious success against good opposition ; and , yes , he has some batting ability.
Rashid may be better. But CC success doesn't always translate at Test level. And some good judges aren't convinced yet.
I don't think it is clear cut.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:39 pm

alfie wrote:Not quite saying that , Craig.  Just that the sample is small so far ; does include some serious success against good opposition ; and , yes , he has some batting ability.
Rashid may be better. But CC success doesn't always translate at Test level. And some good judges aren't convinced yet.
I don't think it is clear cut.

Oh by no means am I saying he is the answer as I know diddly-squat (in all honesty) with regards to CC. Stats say Rashid is far better than Ali but of course his are all at CC level. However, Ali has had his chance and with the ball he just hasn't done it for a year now that is my chief gripe. The warning signs are there that he will fail to deliver this summer and so than giving a chance to someone fresh who surely cannot bowl any worse than Ali has makes much more sense and sends out a message that mediocre performances are unacceptable at Test level for England.
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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by alfie on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:44 pm

Guildford ...I hadn't seen your post when I was composing my rather lengthy one. But I see you do share my reservations about the potentially long tail if Tredwell were brought in.
I still have nightmares about Irani/Caddick/Mullally/Tufnell/Giddins ghost
That was against NZ , too. (21 between the five of them in the first innings , 16 in the second , in case you've forgotten Smile )

This wouldn't be in that class , of course. But although I do prefer to look at bowler's primary skill first , one can't deny that runs from the tail are an important factor in modern Test cricket. In fact I saw a stat recently that in all but one of the Ashes series in the last forty years , the urn has gone to the team whose last four wickets performed better. Of course that fact may often flow from earlier dominance so one can't read too much into it ; but still it offers some food for thought.
As you say ; in the absence of a perfect solution we have to put up the best available. Just not quite sure what that is yet...

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by LondonTiger on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:46 pm

Well most pundits are saying that Rashid should have played in T2/3 in Windies and then maybe against NZ. Even He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named reckons he should have played.

I have no doubts about his ability. I do have doubts about his temperament and confidence.

Tredwell demonstrated against WI in the second innings just why he should not play tests. On a worn wicket he bowled fast, low darts.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by alfie on Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:48 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
alfie wrote:Not quite saying that , Craig.  Just that the sample is small so far ; does include some serious success against good opposition ; and , yes , he has some batting ability.
Rashid may be better. But CC success doesn't always translate at Test level. And some good judges aren't convinced yet.
I don't think it is clear cut.

Oh by no means am I saying he is the answer as I know diddly-squat (in all honesty) with regards to CC. Stats say Rashid is far better than Ali but of course his are all at CC level. However, Ali has had his chance and with the ball he just hasn't done it for a year now that is my chief gripe. The warning signs are there that he will fail to deliver this summer and so than giving a chance to someone fresh who surely cannot bowl any worse than Ali has makes much more sense and sends out a message that mediocre performances are unacceptable at Test level for England.

Fair enough , Craig. As I say , it is a moot point at the moment. I guess we'd probably be voting different ways , were we on the selection committee ...as it is we will just have to wait and see.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by guildfordbat on Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:43 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Well most pundits are saying that Rashid should have played in T2/3 in Windies and then maybe against NZ. Even He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named reckons he should have played.

I have no doubts about his ability. I do have doubts about his temperament and confidence.

Tredwell demonstrated against WI in the second innings just why he should not play tests. On a worn wicket he bowled fast, low darts.

Bit of selective picking and choosing as to when to trust He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named there, eh Tiger?Wink

A bit of selective picking and choosing now by me. If Tredwell hadn't bowled so well in the first innings of that Test, the opportunity for him to deliver as wanted in the second would never have arisen.

Despite Tredwell being labelled here ''my man'', I'm not immune to his lack of cutting edge. However, I do see him as capable of usefully playing a necessary role. Probably supporters and critics alike would regard him as ''a poor man's Swann''. It's the value of that which differs amongst posters.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by msp83 on Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:26 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Some very good posts above on the slow bowling front.

One name from the recent past I'll quickly mention but only to take out of the equation is Kerrigan. I saw him on Monday bowling for Lancs against Surrey at the Oval. He posed little threat and Roy really tore into him. The only reason his figures (0/50 off 8 overs on the day) weren't worse was that he didn't bowl more and was promptly taken out of the attack more than once.

MSp - if you are going with Rashid, who are your other bowlers? In line with my earlier posts and subsequent ones from Goose and VTR, I do feel the containment factor is important.
Guildford, I don't think any of the recent bowling England introduced in international cricket would be a seriously containing option if the opposition really attempts to take them on. The onely containing option in their lineup is their most important strike bowler as well, James Anderson. So in the absence of a proper bowler who can keep an end shut down, think England will have to look at different possibilities. As they say, attack can some times be the best form of defense. Keep taking wickets, the containing job can be taken care off. So I would go in with a lineup that has the most wickettaking potential. That would be Anderson, Broad, Wood, Stokes and Rashid.
Is Rashid automatically going to fix all their issues and run through lineups? I don't think so. He might or might not even be an international success. But you'd reach a point when the hunch really fails and you have to look at domestic performance. I flagged it in the past, the way India kept faith for long with Virender Sehwag, Gautam Gambhir and to a great extent Harbhajan Singh though their performances were dipping. The results continued to go south, and eventually they had to go for domestic performers, Murali Vijay, Shikhar Dhawan, Ravichandran Ashwin/Ravindra Jadeja all came in and had relative success.
Think England has reached such a point in the spin department. They picked Ali on a hunch, gave him a pretty decent run, he had great success in a couple of games but have been average or below in others. Doesn't contain, doesn't take enough wickets, doesn't offer consistency with the bat....... There clearly is some ability, but with no form or confidence to back him, its time to take a step back and trust the domestic performer.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by guildfordbat on Wed Jun 03, 2015 8:25 pm

Msp - thanks for your reply and reasoning.

As a strong supporter of the county game, I realise I may seem hypocritical in my distrust of Rashid on the Test arena. Call it a hunch if you want, not the best criteria but not always the wrong one.

I remember years ago being exceptionally doubtful when Surrey legspinner Ian Salisbury was called up by England. His 20 wickets from 15 Tests at 77 each showed I was a lot more right than wrong there and that an impressive first class record of almost 900 wickets at under 33 shouldn't be the only determining factor for Test selection. In case you think I'm claiming psychic powers, I'm certainly not and in all honesty that was a bit more than a hunch. I knew Solly's strengths and weaknesses fairly well and my doubts were shared by many Surrey supporters.

My knowledge of Rashid is considerably less. Furthermore, particular circumstances which applied to Salisbury aren't relevant to him. I also don't discount Tiger's guarded [hope that's accurate] support for Rashid having seen him a lot more than me. I still though can't shake off my doubts which incidentally seem to be shared by Alec Stewart which may or may not have any bearing on the matter (''Surrey news/ articles'' thread refers).

Anyway, I suspect we may find out this summer as calls for Rashid do seem to be growing.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by Gooseberry on Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:00 pm

With regard to Rashids record its been good for some years and hes been sniffing round the edge of the england set up carrying drnks several times. From memory though he got smacked about a bit in one f the warm up games in the windies which is perhaps why he hasnt managed to oust Ali... despite taking wickets for yorkshire and despite Boycot and Vaughn leading the pro yorkshire media lobby.
I guess overall the point is you could make a strong case both for and against Rashid and Tredwell. Theres a feeling to reach an acceptable level England do need a small reshuffle, even if its just to account for poor form.

So they will probably pick Ali for the next test just to urine off the internet.

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

Post by msp83 on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:07 am

alfie wrote:Looking at the spin options : Tredwell is probably the most likely to contain successfully ; and he bowled well in Antigua.  True , as msp pointed out , he was hit around by the Australians last time they clashed in 50 over cricket...but there is a considerable difference between that format and the long game so it doesn't automatically follow that the same will happen . Incidentally - I haven't checked - how many games were involved in that last meeting ? I have vague memories that he did get smashed around ; but I can't recall the details or the number of different occasions.
I think the other thing against Tredwell is his batting - or the lack thereof. Not that he is a total rabbit ; but he is no Ali - or Rashid for that matter.  Broad did better this match , but I'm not sure I want him at eight just yet , with Wood Tredwell and Anderson to follow.

Rashid is a bit of a wild card , really.  Those who have seen him in the CC seem to have widely differing opinions : he may well be a better wicket taking option than Ali ; but it seems very doubtful he'd offer much control.  The Aussies cut their teeth on wrist spinners ; and the fate of previous hopeful English leggies has not been a pretty one in modern times. Not ruling him out , mind. Just saying we shouldn't assume too much.

And Ali , who is taking a bit of stick for his recent efforts.  But perhaps we should back up a bit : he has only played 11 Tests.
He came in as a batsman  - with his useful bowling ability as a second string. Against Sri Lanka , in May , they probably didn't expect to use much spin at all. But of course he made a hundred at Headingley , booking his place for the India series despite not doing much with the ball. And then he had some serious bowling success against India ...which rather changed everyone's perception of him.
Was it a fluke ? I don't think so : it wasn't just one match , and the Indians are known as good players of spin? but it is probably true to say things went his way a bit ; so we probably shouldn't have been too carried away. He needed to back it up.
Unfortunately for Moeen - and probably unfortunately for England generally  - the programme then led to a prolonged diet of one day cricket...I don't think adjusting to the different demands of that game did him any favours. Especially with his pace colleagues not having much success.  And then he got injured.
Since he came back (perhaps too quickly ?) he has lacked any control ; though he has , to be fair , picked up a few wickets - and could have had a few more if England's catching had been sharper.  Memory tells me he bowled a much better length last year against India.  Even so , he didn't have a fantastic economy rate  - though it compares quite well overall with that of Craig , his opposite number in this series , for one.
He's still new at this level. He can bowl better than he's done so far this season. If he can get some decent bowling done for his county before Cardiff , I think he should be starting the Ashes.

But his place isn't set in stone.
Alfie,
As for Ali's performance v India. Of course he had a pretty good series overall. He did particularly well in the 3rd and 4th games where in his spells where match defining. He didn't do anything remarkable in the 1st test and got thrashed around in the first innings, wasn't required to bowl much in the last test. So a couple of pretty good games, 1 decent game and an average game. He didn't do anything remarkable with the ball in the Sri Lanka series, he was average and then downright awful in the West Indies, and he was by and large pretty ordinary against New Zealand. So that is 1 in 4 series....... Not good for your led spinner. whatever people say about his batting, he's picked in the side primarily as the led spinner, his batting has to be a bonus there, and his record anyways is inconsistent and patchy in that department for a batsman. As I said, he was selected on a hunch, how long would the selectors and management act stubborn and ignore the domestic performer?

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Re: England v New Zealand, Headingley 29th May to 2nd June

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