England v New Zealand ODI Thread

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England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 02 Jun 2015, 10:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

Tuesday 9th June 2015
14:00 Edgbaston

Friday 12th June 2015
13:00 The Kia Oval

Sunday 14th June 2015
10:30 The Ageas Bowl

Wednesday 17th June 2015
14:00 Trent Bridge

Saturday 20th June 2015
10:30 Emirates Durham ICG


New Zealand Squad

Brendon McCullum (c)
Corey Anderson
Trent Boult
Grant Elliott
Martin Guptill
Matt Henry
Tom Latham (wk)
Mitchell McClenaghan
Nathan McCullum
Adam Milne±
Luke Ronchi (wk)
Mitchell Santner
Tim Southee
Ross Taylor
Ben Wheeler
Kane Williamson


England Squad

TBC


Last edited by LondonTiger on Tue 02 Jun 2015, 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Capitalising "England")

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by NickisBHAFC on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:38 pm

Awesome from England today! May have FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY turned a corner in ODI format! FINALLY!

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:38 pm

4-for probably a little flattering but a very encouraging 10 overs from Rashid

And you saw a little at the end how he can be useful in getting the tail out as well (something we've notoriously struggled with)
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Duty281 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:39 pm

NickisBHAFC wrote:Awesome from England today! May have FINALLY FINALLY FINALLY turned a corner in ODI format! FINALLY!

Calm down, my dear.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Hammersmith harrier on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:40 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Fingers tightly crossed that Rashid does get into the Test team on the back of this.

I thought you didn't watch one-day stuff. Wink

I'm not Duty but anything that increases the likelihood of Ali being dropped for the Ashes is a huge plus in my eyes.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:41 pm

And encouraging returns from Steven Finn too. He may not be that close to the test squad at this point, but this should keep his confidence up.
Sterner tests would surely await both Finn and Rashid, they wouldn't always have the cover of 400+ on the board, Brendon McCullum might remember his nuanced game yet again...... But this has been a good start to the series from both of them.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:44 pm

The Cricinfo text commentary helpfully observes: "The end is neigh" Very Happy

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:44 pm

It would be wrong to judge Roy on a single innings, similarly wrong to judge Dilly on a single day. Lets see what happens across the series.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:46 pm

Finn too finishes with 4 and England win by 210!. Has to be one of their biggest wins of all time!. This has been a bright start to a new era.......

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:46 pm

Haven't been able to watch the NZ innings but certainly an excellent return for Rashid. As mentioned in the past, I like bowlers sometimes being given their 10 overs on the reel. Doesn't happen enough imo. All well and good mixing up the bowling to keep the batsmen thinking but rhythm is important to a bowler - particularly a leg spinner - and often worth ensuring it's maintained when the bowler has it. Credit to Morgan on that front.

Tiger has recently suggested that a possible weakness of Rashid is a lack of self confidence. This game should clearly do him a lot of good.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:52 pm

LondonTiger wrote:It would be wrong to judge Roy on a single innings, similarly wrong to judge Dilly on a single day. Lets see what happens across the series.
Indeed...... Hope they give Roy the entire series.......
It was so very important for Rashid to come through the first game OK. It is another matter he did much better than OK. If he had a bad day, it would have been very difficult thereafter. Now the team management will give him a fair chance, at the same time the level of expectation would all of a sudden go up. Will be a test of his temperament as to how he would cope with it.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:54 pm

Excellent performance from England - with a couple of asterisks (it is only one performance, and New Zealand were missing two key players in Southee and Anderson)

Very encouraging start to this "new era" and it'll be great for the confidence of this young side. There is a really good balance to it on paper, Roy/Hales opening (Roy more of a "dasher", I think Hales can build an innings better than given credit for) - Root at 3 is busy, and clever. I've always thought Morgan plays better when he can build an innings too, although he needs more than one innings to prove he's back. Stokes/Buttler at 5 and 6 is good, both should enjoy the extra responsibility.

Billings at 7 is the "finisher", hopefully coming in around over 40 - think he might struggle a bit at this early stage of his career if asked to come in around over 28-30, but he can develop. 

Then the bowlers did well - Finn looks a lot more consistent (de-Sakered?), Jordan was tidy. I'd rather see Wood than Plunkett, but he did nothing wrong. Rashid had a very encouraging performance with bat and ball on debut.

Hopefully we've found a winning balance/formula with that team, and certainly there are capable backups in the wings across the board (Vince/Taylor with the bat, Willey/Woakes in the all rounder role, Ali with spin, Wood/Anderson/Broad with the ball). 

Promising - lets hope they're given time to develop, through the inevitable bad times as well
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 8:55 pm

Cricinfo confirms, not only a record ODI total for England, but the biggest margin too!

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 9:00 pm

Not a debut for Rashid, its a comeback! His ODI career is 6 years old!

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Hibbz on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 9:01 pm

Whilst we're on the subject of being annoyed I'm getting increasly irritated by batsmen walking off shaking their heads, feeling hard done by because an lbw appeal has been upheld on umpires call.

It's hitting the stumps, you've blocked it with your leg, you're out. Would you consider yourself hard done by if you were out bowled if the ball just clipped the stumps?

Botham doesn't help either with his ignorant comments about "it wouldn't be out the other way round" either.

Just desserts served up for a later batsmen.

Lovely performance from England. Didn't see Root's innings but Buttler's was just fantastic. He's a joy to watch.

Wasn't over impressed by Finn's first spell, his action looks so contrived now and he's lost pace but couldn't fault him when he came back to wrap up the innings. Don't rate Jordan, especially as an opening bowler but thought both Plunkett and Stokes bowled some decent stuff at pace.

Rashid is the real wild card. I follow but don't watch much if any county cricket at the moment so judging from a very small sample of ODIs makes me less than expert but I'll still give my tuppence worth. Obviously a great performance with bat and ball but my concern if we're discussing him as a test player would be much the same as with many other spinners in that batsmen could just wait for the bad ball. Saying that his googly looks fairly potent.

Enjoyable win but I'd back the Kiwis to come firing back. Is Southee out for the whole series?

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 9:29 pm

Hibbz wrote: Is Southee out for the whole series?

Should be back for the next match.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by ChequeredJersey on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 10:06 pm

Buttler is a match winner, pure and simple
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 10:15 pm

I would say we have all seen enough to realise Rashid deserves a shot in test cricket now. Okay figures may have flattered him but this was on a pitch that bowlers were getting smacked to all corners of the ground.
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by JDizzle on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 10:24 pm

My club team made 300 in 40 overs last Saturday and I made 4. I'm feeling your pain Jason Roy!

Aside from that, I thought they were wrong to go with Root up at 3, but that was a fine innings. What a lovely player he is becoming. Ludicrous ball striking from Buttler too. One of only 6 men I think, to have 2 ODI centuries in less than 67 balls! ABDV has 4...

Well bowled Adil too. Googly was brilliantly effective, bamboozled the lower order. No doubt teams will be pouring over even more video footage of how to pick it, which will test him, but couldn't ask much more for his comeback game.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Mike Selig on Tue 09 Jun 2015, 11:02 pm

I missed the last few wickets - seems to have finished in a hurry.

All things said an excellent win for England, with the caveats which most people are acknowledging (in the same way that I and others ask for patience when things go wrong, we shouldn't be too quick to decide that everything is marvellous on the back of one very good game).

I think England will chop around a few things in this series (I expect to see Willey in action at some point, Wood will surely get a game also) and I wouldn't be too quick to say that this is a winning formula, but it seems like a good base to build on. Guys like Roy, Hales et al will hopefully be given a decent run, and hopefully fans will remain patient if they struggle initially rather than pronounce them rubbish and clamour for the latest flavour to be given a go.

Buttler's straight 6 off McClenaghan was extraordinary I thought.

Oh and I guess having been one of the main sceptics I can't really go without commenting further on Rashid. I really liked the action he got on the ball. At the risk of sounding obsessed about pace, I thought he was getting it down quicker than I've seen in the past - he seemed to have a bit of zip. The one time where I did think he looked below standard was when he floated it right up (sort of 46ish on the speed gun) - I think that might be one to leave in the locker or only use when the tail come in. His googly was a weapon but it will be interesting to see how it fares under the scrutiny of video analysis and as players see more of him.

I'm not quite willing to call him the messiah (but I must hasten to add I'm please that I haven't seen many on here proclaim him so) but it has gone some way to address concerns I had about him in internationals. Now for consistency, and performing under different types of pressure. A leg-spinner is potentially a very exciting thing...

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 5:45 am

England should keep playing this way, though another set of rule changes, this time possibly for the good of the game is coming in in October, and they'll have to be able to adapt. Willey should be given an opportunity at some point. As for Wood, yes he's a very fine prospect, but I think for the time being he should be kept test only. When he played a back to back test, he was seriously down on pace and didn't look his best fitness wise. Since Finn's not quite back to a point wherein he can come back into the test fold, they would need Wood to be able to stay on the park........

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by VTR on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 9:52 am

A great and very un-England-like performance there. Root, Buttler, Rashid top performances, Morgan and Finn very good.

Not getting too carried away about the new era, because if you look at those names, it is mainly the old heads doing the work - Root and Buttler in particular setting up an impossible chase.

Did like the look of Rashid, won't have done his Test prospects any harm, but I would urge people not to get too carried away as its a very different format, and I doubt he will be facing too many batsmen in Tests trying to hit him out of the park first ball.


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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:36 am

VTR wrote:...

Did like the look of Rashid, won't have done his Test prospects any harm, but I would urge people not to get too carried away as its a very different format, and I doubt he will be facing too many batsmen in Tests trying to hit him out of the park first ball.


I agree with all that. With regard to the ''trying to hit him out of the park first ball'' comment, that's certainly right although, to be fair, Rashid's contribution with the bat helped create that situation.

Anyway, let's see how he gets on at the Oval on Friday. His confidence should be up and he shouldn't be too daunted following in the footsteps of such Surrey and England leg spinners as Salisbury and Schofield ...

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by VTR on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:43 am

guildfordbat wrote:
VTR wrote:...

Did like the look of Rashid, won't have done his Test prospects any harm, but I would urge people not to get too carried away as its a very different format, and I doubt he will be facing too many batsmen in Tests trying to hit him out of the park first ball.


I agree with all that. With regard to the ''trying to hit him out of the park first ball'' comment, that's certainly right although, to be fair, Rashid's contribution with the bat helped create that situation.

Anyway, let's see how he gets on at the Oval on Friday. His confidence should be up and he shouldn't be too daunted following in the footsteps of such Surrey and England leg spinners as Salisbury and Schofield ...

Laugh Don't forget Scott Borthwick!

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:58 am

I was restricting the Leg Spinning Hall of Fame to those with Surrey connections! Smile

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:04 am

Not wanting to be too critical, but I feel that England were a bowling option light and overall the makeup of the bowling worries me.

Finn - happy enough with him playing, but like Rashid he does suffer from confidence issues
Jordan - Struggle to see what he brings as a bowler, but will see what happens across the series.
Plunkett - great sixes, but not good enough
Stokes - do we wanr to have to rely on 10 overs?
Rashid - did well, but that situation with Batsmen coming hard at him but with a huge total to defend was tailor made.

What was good was that the bowlers did not panic when NZ came at them, but easier to do defending over 400. How woudl we have reacted had they batted first and been 140-3 after 20 overs (which they were roughly).

OPf course Ali coming back would give us an extra option, and I would like to see Willey have a game replacing Billings rather than a bowler.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Stella on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:17 am

Willey replacing Billings sounds like a decent option for the next match, or one after.
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:19 am

LondonTiger wrote:Not wanting to be too critical, but I feel that England were a bowling option light and overall the makeup of the bowling worries me.
...

Agree with that.

It seems that Root is the sixth bowler to go to as and when required. I'm not convinced that is a sufficient option.

As regards freeing up a space for a front line bowler, I see Billings as a handy reserve keeper/batsman for Buttler but am unsure he belongs in the team as an outfielder biffing at number 7.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by jimbohammers on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:23 am

Finally the penny's dropped. Stop playing Cook, Bell, Balance, Broad and Anderson.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by king_carlos on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:25 am

Agree with that LT.

I continue to feel that Jordan just lacks that bit more potency needed in international cricket. I really hope he proves me wrong as his all round athletic ability and talent across all three facets of the game is huge.

Plunkett I was very happy to see back in the international fold but as you pointed out at the time one day cricket isn't his strongest suit. It feels a bit like an audition for the Ashes.

Stokes I continue to be unsure about, in short bursts he looks a really handy bowler. He seems to struggle to keep it tight over a longer spell however which for a 4th/5th bowler in ODIs is an issue.

In short I think we're simply lacking an experienced bowler in the attack to open with Finn. Whilst I agree with him missing out on this squad completely, we could really do with Broad refinding his one day form as that touch more experience opening the bowling would aid this side massively.

Woakes returning to fitness should be an interesting addition as well.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:38 am

Think you've gotta give Billings more of a go than one game, but agree his slot is the one to be moved if we want to play willey
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Mike Selig on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:39 am

I think Root as a 6th bowler is fine, provided your 5 front line bowlers are sufficiently reliable. He can chip in with 4 or 5 tidyish overs either to break things up or if one of the bowlers is having an off day, which is really all your 6th bowler should be doing.

That "if" however I think is probably the issue, because an attack of Finn, Jordan, Plunkett, Rashif and Stokes is many things, but "reliable" is probably not one of them.

Add to that that Root is probably a small notch below a genuine bowling option (in comparison to say someone like Maxwell), and also that England's other batsmen don't really bowl at all. Roy does a bit I think (Surrey fans?), but Hales, Morgan and Billings... although Morgan did once get through 10 overs 1-18 for me on cricket captain (that was a strange match...)...

Compare to Aus who have 3 top bowlers in Johnson, Starc and Hazzlewood, then Faulkner, Watson backed up by Maxwell, and then if that goes wrong then there's still Smith, Finch, Clarke, even Warner.

So yeah I'd agree that England are light on bowling, not necessarily because of Root as 6th bowler, but also because of the 5 guys ahead of him and the lack of options beyond him.

Having said that, if Moeen returns (either down the order or up top again) then that looks quite a lot better: 5 bowlers plus Ali plus Root is probably enough you'd think.

Moreover I'd be loathe to drop Billings after one match, I'm really quite keen to see what he can do.

And finally, whilst Willey at 7 does seem like an option, if his bowling turns out not to be good enough, what then? Do you go back to Woakes, in which case the batting starts to look a little light again?

It could still be that the current shape up is the least bad option. If you get to the stage where you have to use your 7th bowling option then you're probably in trouble anyway (but admittedly there are times where you might want to use it for reasons other than the other guys going around the park - that is a subtle but real difference).

Loads of questions. Not necessarily a bad thing, just hope that England don't wait until 6 months or so before the world cup to try and answer them this time...

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Stella on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:47 am

Olly wrote:Think you've gotta give Billings more of a go than one game, but agree his slot is the one to be moved if we want to play willey

Billings only played as Willey was injured, by all accounts, hence for me, Willey coming in. If they had selected Billings as they think he's a better option then yes, he would deserve a run.
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 11:59 am

Just to confirm / clarify - my concern about Root the bowler isn't so much about him being a potential sixth bowler but the frequency imo in which he'll likely have to bowl. With yesterday's team, I can certainly see 20 overs having to be shared out amongst three.

As for Billings, I accept he shouldn't be dumped after one game. That would be a return to the bad old days of never knowing if you had someone really good and if they were making them too scared to show their proper worth. My point was that he wouldn't have been in my team to begin with - that's different (as Mike would say) from calling for him to be dropped.


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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by alfie on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 12:27 pm

Delighted to see the bowlers finished the job quite nicely - suppose it would have been a severe indictment of them if they hadn't , given that score !
But still  : NZ came at them . And they evidently held their nerve. Saw the second half on replay and was quite impressed with Rashid : certainly spins it more than Salisbury Smile   With 400 behind him , he did exactly what was called for , and reaped the rewards. Add in his batting effort and it was a fine return to the colours  - and a decent audition for his five day prospects as well . Not calling for him to play in Cardiff on this performance ; but he's risen in my estimation - not least because his apparently sometimes fragile confidence must have just taken a hell of a boost. Plus he is a class act at appealing ...

msp must be delighted. : apart from Rashid , his other client turned in a fine set of figures...and he looked pretty accurate in the late spell , although I didn't see any 90 mph stuff.  Still good to see Finn at least on the comeback trail : he was in danger of disappearing ; but clearly they like him for ODi , and this has done him no harm. Maybe that Test bowler is still in there somewhere...
I share the concern a few have expressed about the lack of bowling options. Defending 400 is one thing , but another day they could be hideously exposed if Root is the only spare  - I like him for Tests , but suspect he could be a bit of a target in the short game.  However ,this is surely all about developing options , is it not ? With all the cricket played these days you need a fair sized group of bowlers to rotate. If they were about to play a Champions Trophy in England right now , they'd probably recall Broad and Anderson ; but if Jordan , Finn , Wood etc can get some games in then we can can realistically look at the New Generation.
Way to go : this is one game ; and they could be shot out for 170 next week. But , taken with the Lord's Test , I think there are good signs for England . For which a deal of credit must surely go to Farbrace : I am fine with Bayliss ; but I hope he has a light touch , because this chap seems to have them all playing as if they enjoy it ...and it seems to be working for them.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 12:37 pm

Mike Selig wrote: ...

Add to that that Root is probably a small notch below a genuine bowling option (in comparison to say someone like Maxwell), and also that England's other batsmen don't really bowl at all. Roy does a bit I think (Surrey fans?), but Hales, Morgan and Billings... although Morgan did once get through 10 overs 1-18 for me on cricket captain (that was a strange match...)...

...

Roy bowls a small bit of medium pace for Surrey, mainly as a sixth bowling option in CC games. He's picked up the odd useful wicket here and there but is still a long way off being a genuine bowling option imo. I don't believe he's bowled in t20 or any limited overs formats - if he has, hardly ever.


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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 12:58 pm

As I understand it England had intended to go in with Willey but he picked up a late injury?
If thats the case it gives a much more balanced look to the side without seriously denting the batting, which is ridiculously deep.
Adding a left arm seam option and having less reliance on Stokes really shores up the bowling front. Ali is also still an option for that spot, or jordans, in spin friendly games.

I dont think anyone would kid themsleves its a complete flawless package, but it did deliver depsite some individual failings (Stokes, Roy, Billings, Jordan) and missing some senior bowlers.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 1:00 pm

I Bet Voldermort wishes he'd took that job offer so he could grab trhe credit for this.


Last edited by Gooseberry on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : -Removal of reference to "he who should only be mentioned on his own twitter account")

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 6:00 pm

alfie wrote:msp must be delighted. : apart from Rashid , his other client turned in a fine set of figures...and he looked pretty accurate in the late spell , although I didn't see any 90 mph stuff.  Still good to see Finn at least on the comeback trail : he was in danger of disappearing ; but clearly they like him for ODi , and this has done him no harm. Maybe that Test bowler is still in there somewhere...
I share the concern a few have expressed about the lack of bowling options. Defending 400 is one thing , but another day they could be hideously exposed if Root is the only spare  - I like him for Tests , but suspect he could be a bit of a target in the short game.  However ,this is surely all about developing options , is it not ? With all the cricket played these days you need a fair sized group of bowlers to rotate. If they were about to play a Champions Trophy in England right now , they'd probably recall Broad and Anderson ; but if Jordan , Finn , Wood etc can get some games in then we can can realistically look at the New Generation.
Way to go : this is one game ; and they could be shot out for 170 next week. But , taken with the Lord's Test , I think there are good signs for England . For which a deal of credit must surely go to Farbrace : I am fine with Bayliss ; but I hope he has a light touch , because this chap seems to have them all playing as if they enjoy it ...and it seems to be working for them.
Alfie, I'll be subcontracting to the Raf Agency for a statement on Finn's performance!!
It indeed was a pretty good performance from Finn, but I would say he's not quite there to be considered for a test comeback. Let him build up his confidence in the limited overs stuff though that is a pretty horrible place to do that for a bowler, and let him get used to his reworked action, let him try and refind that additional yard or 2 of pace.......

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by msp83 on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 6:42 pm

Regardless of his inconsistencies in the longer format, Moeen Ali is a pretty handy ODI performance both with bat and ball, and think he should be brought back into the side....... Perhaps not for this series as the selected players need to be given a good run. But Ali in for Billings, either at the top of the order or lower down....... Would provide a pretty handy bowling option too, that would give England 6 genuine bowling options and the handy parttime option of Root. Woakes, ones fit, should come in for Jordan/Plunkett.
Ali
Hales
Roy
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Stokes
Rashid
Woakes
Jordan/Plunkett/Wood
Finn

Hales and Roy will have to prove themselves and establish themselves at the top, Rashid should be able to find consistency, and Morgan should show that he's really back. Stokes, Woakes, all of them have points to prove, only Root and Buttler are automatic selections, to a lesser extent Ali too. But England should give these players a decent run, as they all have some serious potential.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 8:36 pm

That's a pretty decent team msp

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Liam on Wed 10 Jun 2015, 10:44 pm

I'd definitely bring woakes back in as he can be the bowler that offers control amongst the wicket taking abilities of finn/stokes/rashid/plunkett/wood and others who play.

My main issue is with Jordan. I just feel he offers very little with the ball. He's just not threatening enough, neither does he offer control. He's a great fielder, that's for sure and handy with the bat. But as a bowling option first and foremost, I don't feel he has it at international level. Not to say he never will, as time is on his side. I feel he needs to go away to county level and try and bring his bowling up a level.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 8:22 am

Liam wrote:I'd definitely bring woakes back in as he can be the bowler that offers control amongst the wicket taking abilities of finn/stokes/rashid/plunkett/wood and others who play.

My main issue is with Jordan. I just feel he offers very little with the ball. He's just not threatening enough, neither does he offer control. He's a great fielder, that's for sure and handy with the bat. But as a bowling option first and foremost, I don't feel he has it at international level. Not to say he never will, as time is on his side. I feel he needs to go away to county level and try and bring his bowling up a level.

I have not seen much of Jordan's bowling but I agree. My question would be (to anyone who has seen a lot of his bowling), what type of bowler is he supposed to be? Because I don't see any great pace, control is an issue, he doesn't get bounce and he doesn't really move the bowl off the seam or in the air. To me, from what I have seen is just hittable straight up and down 85mph bowling.

Can anyone explain what he is supposed to be good at with the ball?

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 8:48 am

VTR - I'm not a total believer in Jordan but am more supportive than many here. I'm out now for the day but will give you a few thoughts tonight.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 10:08 am

guildfordbat wrote:VTR - I'm not a total believer in Jordan but am more supportive than many here. I'm out now for the day but will give you a few thoughts tonight.

Thanks in advance - I look forward to reading those thumbsup

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Stella on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 10:10 am

I hope Guildford doesn't mention his athletic ability Smile
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by VTR on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 10:15 am

Stella wrote:I hope Guildford doesn't mention his athletic ability Smile

Ha! Natural athlete/great fielder are heard a lot. Very little talk ever seems to be about Jordan the bowler, and that's what he's supposed to be!

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by LondonTiger on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 11:00 am

I have to say that for a natural athlete he looks really lumbering when he bowls.

Jordan does not look like a quality bowler, nor is his record promising. While not old, turning 27 later this year he is no spring chicken. I really do not understand either what sort of bowler he wants to be, nor why he is selected.

However I have to accept that Mark Robinson at sussex knows a lot more about seam bowling than I ever will, and he likes the lad.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Hibbz on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 8:23 pm

Willey currently going ballistic in the T20 on Sky. Never seen him bat before, by god do some of these young guns (Buttler, Billings, Roy etc) hit the ball hard.

No doubt the old f@rts would tell us it's the new bats but the way they swing at the ball is pretty spectacular.

Rarely watch T20 and not really a fan but the Mrs is out and seems like a guilty pleasure.

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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 8:25 pm

Excellent 21 ball 50 from David Willey. Like hibbz says he gives it a right old wallop
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Re: England v New Zealand ODI Thread

Post by guildfordbat on Thu 11 Jun 2015, 9:11 pm

Ok, a few words in support of Jordan without using the word ''athletic''. Wink

Firstly, let me make clear that anyone who claims Jordan has proven class or proven ability is a liar or an idiot. There just isn't enough that is proven. However, that doesn't stop me from thinking that something may be there.

I haven't seen him a massive amount 'live' but certainly saw him a few times when he was with Surrey between 2007 and 2012. He impressed when breaking into the first team as an eighteen year old and took about 20 wickets in the last couple of months of his first season.

I think ''what happened next'' goes some way to explaining why a question mark still hangs over him eight years later. He was bedevilled by a succession of niggling injuries which adversely affected form and confidence when he was able to play in 2008 and 2009. 2010 was then a complete write off as he played no cricket at all due to a serious back problem. He was eased back into the team in 2011 but was never really a commanding presence and ended that season with about 10 wickets and an average touching 50. Chris Adams, cricket boss at Surrey at the time, then needed imo to back him or sack him. Typically, Adams did neither and tried to be all things to all people by bringing Jordan in for one game and then leaving him out for the next during 2012. Not surprisingly, this failed to work and Jordan finished that season with very similar underwhelming figures as for the year before. That was it as far as Surrey were concerned and he was released. I actually thought that was the right decision at the time, albeit disappointed to see potential unfulfilled and feeling he hadn't been particularly well served by Lady Luck or the club's management.

Whilst the above doesn't argue the case for him having an England place today, it hopefully goes some way to explaining the ''missing years'' and perhaps allows a bit more tolerance being extended to someone still unproven approaching the age of twenty-seven.

As for what type of bowler he was ... he was very much an attacking bowler. Sometimes too much meaning he could be expensive; as a consequence, he rarely played in t20 and limited overs games. However, at his most effective when I saw him, he would hit the deck hard and surprise batsman with the ball rising and hurrying in on him. He could also move the ball away from the batsman although I was never certain as to how much in control he was of that. Based on my viewing with the naked eye, I feel he is - or can be - a lot quicker than is the view of many other posters. That's unscientific and may be wrong on my part but is my perception. Similarly - and this is certainly something personal to me - I regularly felt he was always likely to make something happen. This seemed to be the positive attitude of some England supporters when he first played at an international level although that subsequently seems to have declined. I suspect that's more down to impatience of some supporters rather than any failing of the player ... again my view.

I've not seen Jordan 'live' since he left Surrey but he's done more than ok on the domestic front. By all means ignore anything I say but, as Tiger suggests, Mark Robinson at Sussex is a canny pro who knows seam bowling. He was happy to sign up Jordan (there had been rumours from mid-way through Jordan's final season at the Oval when he was struggling to pull up weeds that Sussex were surprisingly interested) and it's worked well for all parties. Jordan took 59 CC wickets in 2013 (his first season for Sussex) at 26.7. He only played 5 CC matches last season (due to England call ups, ? injury - unsure) but still took 25 CC wickets for the same average. It's stats like that which make me disagree with Liam when he states Jordan ''needs to go away to county level and try and bring his bowling up a level''. His county level over those last two seasons has already been highly effective and impressive.

Issues Jordan had - besides fitness - during his Surrey days were inconsistency (a cracker of a delivery followed by a four ball) and, particularly in 2012, too many no-balls. The latter no longer appears an issue and I would credit Robinson for that. I don't see him sufficiently to judge (in)consistency but domestic stats suggest that corner has also been turned. If Robinson has rid or waterdowned Jordan's weaknesses whilst increasing previous strengths, I believe we just might have a valuable bowler available to us.

None of this is meant to convince doubters Jordan belongs in the England squad (note I don't even say team) but to show why I, at least, think it's worth keeping a bit of faith and keeping him involved. Robinson thought Jordan was worth investing in when he was near rock bottom and that seems to have paid off. Sure, England are at a higher level than Sussex but Jordan is also that much better than when he left Surrey.

As something of an aside, I cannot recall ever seeing Jordan field at slip when he was with Surrey!

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