YES is miles ahead of NO in latest EU referendum poll !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 Jun 2015, 2:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Latest ICM poll - Should Britain stay in Europe ????...

Stay in 59%.......................Get out 41% .....

Common sense seems to be prevailing..


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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 2:24 pm

Hmmm. To be fair it would have been significantly easier for my wife to come here with me when I moved had she been European rather than Chinese (significantly cheaper too Very Happy). Then again, both would also have applied had I just been French, rather than a dual national, so...

Agree that the irony about a UKIP supporter complaining of "unfair caps" on immigration is a bit too much to take...

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 2:53 pm

Rowley wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Rowley wrote:
Duty281 wrote: c) so that non-EU migrants are not discriminated against.


Any chance you can explain this point. I am not sure how this works.

Unfair caps are being imposed on the number of non-EU migrants allowed in to this country,.

That isn't really happening though. The only cap is that those coming in have to be skilled and capable of filling well paid roles. That has been the intention of the immigration system for countless years now. A couple of schemes have closed which allowed access to work, but those were closed because of widespread abuse of the systems, their closure was in no way shape or form related to Eastern European migration and nobody has ever claimed such was the case.

There are caps within the Tier 2 system, but in the nearly 8 years the scheme has been in place the monthly cap has been breached twice. That to me suggests the cap is set at a more than reasonable and sensible level. Again there is no evidence that in the two months the cap was breached was as a consequence of European free movement. Would be interested as to which caps in the current immigration system it is you think are so unfair.

I believe the Prime Minister is seeking to change several things within the tier 2 system, and it is partially to that which I was referring. He is looking at raising the wage threshold for potential migrants who qualify under the tier 2 system, and introducing harsher limits on the numbers allowed to migrate under the aforementioned system. How far he gets with this remains to be seen.

As for a present example, I read a couple of days ago that hundreds of foreign nurses, applying from outside the EU, have been denied tier 2 visas in a period of 7 months in 2015 - and this nation, not that it needs to be said, has a health service which needs desperate reinforcement.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2016-01-29/thousands-of-foreign-nurses-denied-tier-2-visas-say-uk-hospitals

Why is this happening? Well the Prime Minister is doing these things because he wants to reduce the net migration figures. Because he has no control of immigration from inside the EU, the Prime Minister has to enact punitive measures to immigration from outside the EU, to the overall detriment of our country.

This problem, of caps being hit, will happen more and more frequently if this country remains in the EU. Migration from inside the EU will only increase as the years go by, it will not diminish.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 2:55 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Hmmm. To be fair it would have been significantly easier for my wife to come here with me when I moved had she been European rather than Chinese (significantly cheaper too Very Happy). Then again, both would also have applied had I just been French, rather than a dual national, so...

Agree that the irony about a UKIP supporter complaining of "unfair caps" on immigration is a bit too much to take...

Ah, you give plenty of cheap jokes, but no counter-arguments. Interesting...

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Post by Rowley on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 3:12 pm

He is seeking to make Tier 2 harder in the hope that it will encourage businesses to invest more in resident labour, apprenticeships and upskilling the workforce we already have, and to stop abuse of some routes in it, the Intra Company Transfer route in particularly, within certain sectors such as IT. The report by the Migration Advisory Committee is some 250 pages and having read it all I am pretty sure there is not a reference to Eastern European migration in it. As I said previously to qualify for a Tier 2 visa you have to be doing a graduate level job, and be paid at least £20,800 and in most roles significantly more.

With regard to the nurses, you have no more idea than I do why they are getting rejected. However working in the industry there could be countless reasons, such as the hospitals not carrying out the Resident Labour Market test correctly or them not meeting compliance requirements. To assume it is in any way related to Eastern European migration is at best speculation and in reality correlating two completely unrelated issues. Should also be said that the link you provided is from a company such as the one I work with, whilst I am not contesting what they are saying is true, they do have something of a vested interest in suggesting Tier 2 visas are very difficult to get, and the best way to do it is through using a professional company. I would tell people the same.


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Post by Rowley on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 3:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:

This problem, of caps being hit, will happen more and more frequently if this country remains in the EU. Migration from inside the EU will only increase as the years go by, it will not diminish.

You do realise don't you that the cap in Tier 2 being hit or breached is actually an indicator of the exact opposite of what you're arguing? If the cap is reached more regularly it can only be interpreted that demand for workers who need a visa to fill highly skilled jobs is increasing, if that is the case, and it would be, that can only mean said jobs cannot be filled from the resident labour market or those with free movement. The cap being reached can be interpreted in many ways, but free movement in the EEA disadvantaging non EU migrants or diminishing demand for them is sure as bloody hell not one of them.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:38 pm

Rowley wrote:He is seeking to make Tier 2 harder in the hope that it will encourage businesses to invest more in resident labour, apprenticeships and upskilling the workforce we already have, and to stop abuse of some routes in it, the Intra Company Transfer route in particularly, within certain sectors such as IT. The report by the Migration Advisory Committee is some 250 pages and having read it all I am pretty sure there is not a reference to Eastern European migration in it. As I said previously to qualify for a Tier 2 visa you have to be doing a graduate level job, and be paid at least £20,800 and in most roles significantly more.

With regard to the nurses, you have no more idea than I do why they are getting rejected. However working in the industry there could be countless reasons, such as the hospitals not carrying out the Resident Labour Market test correctly or them not meeting compliance requirements. To assume it is in any way related to Eastern European migration is at best speculation and in reality correlating two completely unrelated issues. Should also be said that the link you provided is from a company such as the one I work with, whilst I am not contesting what they are saying is true, they do have something of a vested interest in suggesting Tier 2 visas are very difficult to get, and the best way to do it is through using a professional company. I would tell people the same.  


Well the report by the Migration Advisory Committee didn't look, specifically, at migration from inside the EU, because it wasn't asked to. They were merely requested to advise on how to reduce the level of economic migration from outside the EU.

The Prime Minister may say, in public, that he aspires to reduce the level of tier 2 immigration because he wants to see a greater number of apprenticeships or a higher-skilled British workforce, but I think the reality is rather different. His stated aim is to reduce net migration to below 100,000, and the only way to make inroads into that target is by harshly cutting non-EU migration.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:42 pm

Rowley wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

This problem, of caps being hit, will happen more and more frequently if this country remains in the EU. Migration from inside the EU will only increase as the years go by, it will not diminish.

You do realise don't you that the cap in Tier 2 being hit or breached  is actually an indicator of the exact opposite of what you're arguing? If the cap is reached more regularly it can only be interpreted that demand for workers who need a visa to fill highly skilled jobs is increasing, if that is the case, and it would be, that can only mean said jobs cannot be filled from the resident labour market or those with free movement. The cap being reached can be interpreted in many ways, but free movement in the EEA disadvantaging non EU migrants or diminishing demand for them is sure as bloody hell not one of them.

Essentially, as migration from inside the EU increases, the efforts to cap migration levels from outside the EU will also increase. The latter will be achieved through the means of making the caps, such as tier 2, harsher and more punitive.


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Post by Rowley on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 5:53 pm

You're answering different questions to the point you actually made. Your initial assertion was the free movement of EU labour was causing unfair caps on non EU migrants. This is simply not true. A cap is a limit on the number of people allowed, making it increasingly difficult or prohibitively expensive is not a cap. There is one cap, that is on Tier 2, and as I said at the initial stage this cap has been breached twice in eight years, or about 2 to 3% thus far. This suggests two things, the first being the cap is set at either the right or quite a generous level and secondly that EU movement is not in any way shape or form impacting on it.


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Post by Rowley on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 6:01 pm

Duty281 wrote: His stated aim is to reduce net migration to below 100,000, and the only way to make inroads into that target is by harshly cutting non-EU migration.

The thing is though, had you read the report, pretty much at the opening section the author acknowledges that were you to completiely stop fresh entrants into Tier 2 from entering the UK the net difference would not get within 100 yards of Cameron's ridiculous tens of thousands objective. When the report acknowledges a measure that is absolutely not going to happen would not achieve an objective think it is reasonable to assume said objective is not the driving force behind commissioning the report.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 30 Jan 2016, 9:35 pm

I'd just like to add more on the theory that foreigners (ie Poles) are taking work away from Brits. Tosh.

I work on the railways and in my previous post when based in Edinburgh the catering on trains was not the highest paid job on the railway (actually probably the lowest paid) and in over 12 years I did that job we had many nationalities taking on the role. My experience was that British nationals were far less likely to stick the job or even apply for the posts. Those that did then did not last as long in the role either quitting seeing the job as below them or not glamorous enough. On the other hand a far greater number of the Poles did stick the job and a lot have moved onto higher grade duties or other posts in the railway ie guards, conductors, drivers or such-like. In my experience I say thank god for the Poles otherwise god knows what would have become of the catering services.
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 7:49 am

Rowley wrote:You're answering different questions to the point you actually made. Your initial assertion was the free movement of EU labour was causing unfair caps on non EU migrants. This is simply not true. A cap is a limit on the number of people allowed, making it increasingly difficult or prohibitively expensive is not a cap. There is one cap, that is on Tier 2, and as I said at the initial stage this cap has been breached twice in eight years, or about 2 to 3% thus far. This suggests two things, the first being the cap is set at either the right or quite a generous level and secondly that EU movement is not in any way shape or form impacting on it.

Making it increasingly difficult or prohibitively expensive does, however, limit the potential number of people who qualify under the tier 2 system. As we can see from the article below, skilled migrants from outside the EU could be cut by as much as 20% a year if the Home Secretary endorses the recommendations of the government’s migration advisory committee - recommendations which include a substantial rise in the wage threshold.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jan/19/theresa-may-to-charge-firms-employing-skilled-migrants-1000-levy

These desperate measures from the government would not be happening if they could control migration from inside the EU.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 7:53 am

Rowley wrote:
Duty281 wrote: His stated aim is to reduce net migration to below 100,000, and the only way to make inroads into that target is by harshly cutting non-EU migration.

The thing is though, had you read the report, pretty much at the opening section the author acknowledges that were you to completiely stop fresh entrants into Tier 2 from entering the UK the net difference would not get within 100 yards of Cameron's ridiculous tens of thousands objective. When the report acknowledges a measure that is absolutely not going to happen would not achieve an objective think it is reasonable to assume said objective is not the driving force behind commissioning the report.

Well, perfectly true, cutting (or even abolishing) skilled migration from outside the EU would not get anywhere near the Prime Minister's ludicrous, and impossible, target on net migration.

But the Prime Minister would dearly want some cuts to net migration, any cuts would do in his mind. That is the only conclusion we can be left with.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 7:54 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:I'd just like to add more on the theory that foreigners (ie Poles) are taking work away from Brits. Tosh.

Whose theory is this?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 7:56 am

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I'd just like to add more on the theory that foreigners (ie Poles) are taking work away from Brits. Tosh.

Whose theory is this?

I have heard it spouted in many areas across social media and in sporadic news reports as well. It really is utter codswallop spouted by people with no experience of life out there in the real world of employment.
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Post by Rowley on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 9:24 am

The problem around this is the PM has shackled himself with this ridiculous 10s of thousands pledge, a pledge he has not even put a dint in. In reality there are only two ways of achieving this objective. The first is to stop free movement in Europe. He only does this by leaving the EU, which he does not want to do as he believes, rightly in my opinion that the downsides and other costs of leaving do not justify the move.

The only other route to achieving this objective is stopping overseas students coming to the UK, however if he does this, it a) damages relationships with a lot of countries we rely on for trade such as China and India, and b) leaves a funding gap in the higher education system which is Grand Canyon sized. As such the only two options that could make a difference are not really on the table. Therefore he does stuff like this in Tier 2 as he has to be seen to be doing something politically to attempt to achieve his 10s of thousands number and also because he knows hammering migrants, whatever the merits of the methods by which you choose to hammer them plays well politically, being seen to out Farage, Farage is unfortunately still in vogue.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 31 Jan 2016, 6:56 pm

Hardly shackled with it...He's made his 60th u turn today on migrants sending benefit money home...

Promises are made to be broken..

But it's okay because no one seems to care.. least off all the main opposition..

SNP are the only party tucking in to the posh boys..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 9:59 am

I love the EU/Non-EU UKIP argument, genuinely hilarious. It can basically be distilled as follows:

"We're not a bunch of ignorant racist bigots, honest, wants all those other foreigners to be given the same chance, all those lovely Jamaicans & Pakistanis we clearly have no actual affection for and would kick off at their 'influx' were our nonesense policies ever actually enacted".

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 10:04 am

Rowley wrote:He is seeking to make Tier 2 harder in the hope that it will encourage businesses to invest more in resident labour, apprenticeships and upskilling the workforce we already have, and to stop abuse of some routes in it, the Intra Company Transfer route in particularly, within certain sectors such as IT. The report by the Migration Advisory Committee is some 250 pages and having read it all I am pretty sure there is not a reference to Eastern European migration in it. As I said previously to qualify for a Tier 2 visa you have to be doing a graduate level job, and be paid at least £20,800 and in most roles significantly more.

With regard to the nurses, you have no more idea than I do why they are getting rejected. However working in the industry there could be countless reasons, such as the hospitals not carrying out the Resident Labour Market test correctly or them not meeting compliance requirements. To assume it is in any way related to Eastern European migration is at best speculation and in reality correlating two completely unrelated issues. Should also be said that the link you provided is from a company such as the one I work with, whilst I am not contesting what they are saying is true, they do have something of a vested interest in suggesting Tier 2 visas are very difficult to get, and the best way to do it is through using a professional company. I would tell people the same.  


That moment you try to argue a point with someone who is actually professionally qualified & experienced in the subject matter you're idley opining on..... Laugh picard

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 10:07 am

Duty281 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I'd just like to add more on the theory that foreigners (ie Poles) are taking work away from Brits. Tosh.

Whose theory is this?

Yours. It's your whole raison d'etre. (apologies for speaking a dirty foreigner language, google translate can assist you)

Despite the research you provided, which I read properly, debunking the myth as I've mentioned previously.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 11:29 am

Awwww did it upset you to be proven wrong, TopHat? Does it hurt to see your prejudice and bigotry be shown up for what it truly is?

Bless.

Wait a moment, I think have the perfect word to describe you.

"If someone demonstrates unending stupidity, ignorance and point black refusal to contribute rationale to support their argument - call them a knuckledragger."

Ah OK, you're a knuckledragger, TopHat. thumbsup

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 11:36 am

Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

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Post by greengoblin on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 11:47 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

A question for you.

Do you think present levels of immigration are sustainable for a small Island?

Maybe you want to concrete over what's left of our countryside.

I always find it amusing that the green party's hatred of borders trumps their 'love' of the countryside.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 11:50 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

a) Well you ignored this - "And, in reply, does society or the economy benefit when doctors, teachers (and such) have to be turned away for the simple reason that they are outside the EU?"

b) And you ignored the point about wage compression.

c) You told me to speak to anyone who employed unskilled/manual labour, and they would tell me about how immigrants do better work than Brits, how Brits are lazy, or how jobs couldn't be filled by Brits.

I showed you a survey which dismisses that as the ignorance it is, with only a minority (around 1 in 4, or slightly less) agreeing with you.  You then did some desperate back-tracking with a post saying 'basically almost half' agree with you (read: not a half).

d) Oh and your idiotic point about how the whole economy would collapse if the free movement of persons ended, when that same survey showed a majority of employers would hire more British workers if that happened.

e) As for 'I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.'

Are you 11 years old?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 11:59 am

greengoblin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

A question for you.

Do you think present levels of immigration are sustainable for a small Island?

Maybe you want to concrete over what's left of our countryside.

I always find it amusing that the green party's hatred of borders trumps their 'love' of the countryside.

I don't think economic migration is the most significant issue facing this country. Have no major issue with it in its current state.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 12:06 pm

Duty, Toppy, debate the points directly and refrain from slinging mud, please.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 12:31 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

a) Well you ignored this - "And, in reply, does society or the economy benefit when doctors, teachers (and such) have to be turned away for the simple reason that they are outside the EU?" Red herring/strawman, as noted earlier.

b) And you ignored the point about wage compression. No, I dealt with it earlier when quoting your research doc, migrants not hired for cheaper labour. Acknowledge there's an element of supply and demand, but there's also significant spare capacity, which has been shown to have a great impact on wages during/since the recession.

c) You told me to speak to anyone who employed unskilled/manual labour, and they would tell me about how immigrants do better work than Brits, how Brits are lazy, or how jobs couldn't be filled by Brits. We've had another two posters support this with real life examples. It is so commonly known it is now bordering on fact. Your research also tacitly supported it with almost half of employers stating that migrants were hired because Brits wouldn't take the jobs or were worse when they did. Vis a vis 12% due to cost.

I showed you a survey which dismisses that as the ignorance it is, with only a minority (around 1 in 4, or slightly less) agreeing with you.  You then did some desperate back-tracking with a post saying 'basically almost half' agree with you (read: not a half). Still the largest majority answer when paired. Which is signficant. Versus the 12% to support your contention.

d) Oh and your idiotic point about how the whole economy would collapse if the free movement of persons ended, when that same survey showed a majority of employers would hire more British workers if that happened. See comments above re analysis of the research you supplied. 'Collapse' was somewhat hyperbolic, but nothing like the rose-tinted spectacle nonesense you're spouting. If British workers aren't taking the jobs, or arent' employable in them, now (46%) - why would closed borders mean Brits would suddenly cure both those jobs market ailments??

e) As for 'I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.'

Are you 11 years old?

Nope. But it is true. His level expertise clearly surpasses yours (and mine) yet you continue on as a Farage mouthpiece in spite of the evidence.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 12:56 pm

A quick update on some polling figures from the last few days.

ComRes released a new telephone poll for the Daily Mail on Friday. On the EU referendum ComRes had voting intentions of REMAIN 54%, LEAVE 36%, DK 10%.

YouGov also released new figures on voting intention and the EU referendum on their website. On the EU referendum they have Leave slightly ahead – REMAIN 38%, LEAVE 42%, DK/WNV 20%.

Finally Ipsos MORI also released EU referendum figures (part of the monthly Political Monitor survey I wrote about earlier in the week). Their latest figures are REMAIN 50%, LEAVE 38%, DK 12%.

There continues to be a big contrast between EU referendum figures in polls conducted by telephone, and conducted online. The telephone polls from ComRes and Ipsos MORI both have very solid leads for remain, the online polls from ICM, YouGov, Survation and others all tend to have the race very close.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 1:30 pm

the whacky world of polling eh?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 1:46 pm

Yeh, don't put much stock in it myself, but it can have interesting nuances at times.

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Post by greengoblin on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 3:14 pm

A lot of the debate on here is about the economy, but to me the social impact of immigration is much more important and irreversible. We used to be a much more friendly and cohesive society because people had shared roots with the people around them. Research has shown that monocultures are happier places. We can never go back to that but we need to shut the door now and try and create as integrated a society as we can.

Plus there is the unanswerable argument about limitless numbers and finite land.

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 4:21 pm

greengoblin wrote:A lot of the debate on here is about the economy, but to me the social impact of immigration is much more important and irreversible. We used to be a much more friendly and cohesive society because people had shared roots with the people around them. Research has shown that monocultures are happier places. We can never go back to that but we need to shut the door now and try and create as integrated a society as we can.

Plus there is the unanswerable argument about limitless numbers and finite land.

Those hardworking BNP researchers never rest!

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 4:54 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Must've missed where you did that, Duty?

I do remember using your own research/source to undermine the bulk of your arguments. I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.

But hey ho, keep playing in your dreamland. It's safe there.

a) Well you ignored this - "And, in reply, does society or the economy benefit when doctors, teachers (and such) have to be turned away for the simple reason that they are outside the EU?" Red herring/strawman, as noted earlier.

b) And you ignored the point about wage compression. No, I dealt with it earlier when quoting your research doc, migrants not hired for cheaper labour.  Acknowledge there's an element of supply and demand, but there's also significant spare capacity, which has been shown to have a great impact on wages during/since the recession.

c) You told me to speak to anyone who employed unskilled/manual labour, and they would tell me about how immigrants do better work than Brits, how Brits are lazy, or how jobs couldn't be filled by Brits.   We've had another two posters support this with real life examples.  It is so commonly known it is now bordering on fact.  Your research also tacitly supported it with almost half of employers stating that migrants were hired because Brits wouldn't take the jobs or were worse when they did.  Vis a vis 12% due to cost.

I showed you a survey which dismisses that as the ignorance it is, with only a minority (around 1 in 4, or slightly less) agreeing with you.  You then did some desperate back-tracking with a post saying 'basically almost half' agree with you (read: not a half). Still the largest majority answer when paired.  Which is signficant. Versus the 12% to support your contention.

d) Oh and your idiotic point about how the whole economy would collapse if the free movement of persons ended, when that same survey showed a majority of employers would hire more British workers if that happened. See comments above re analysis of the research you supplied. 'Collapse' was somewhat hyperbolic, but nothing like the rose-tinted spectacle nonesense you're spouting. If British workers aren't taking the jobs, or arent' employable in them, now (46%) - why would closed borders mean Brits would suddenly cure both those jobs market ailments??

e) As for 'I've also just had the pleasure of reading Rowley completely expose you.'

Are you 11 years old?

Nope.  But it is true.  His level expertise clearly surpasses yours (and mine) yet you continue on as a Farage mouthpiece in spite of the evidence.

a) Except you didn't. It was a direct retort to your point about tradesmen, but you ignored it, deleting it out of the quotation box on your next reply.

b) You ignored the point that I quoted from the Bank of England made on wage compression.

c) 'Bordering on fact' - no it isn't. You have completely failed to grasp the data from the survey I posted. The employers could pick multiple options on that survey as to why they hired EU migrants (hence why the %s on that bar graph add up to 181%) . You can't simply add 26% to the 20% and say nearly half support you, because the two options may have been selected by the same people.

And I'm supposed to be ignorant?!

The 12% figure has nothing to do with my contention, because I don't think that employers are solely hiring EU migrants for cheap labour.

And if you note what one of the two posters wrote, he described two British workers out of the three getting on their work in a satisfactory manner, whereas you would have us believe British people would not dare do any labour that EU migrants do.

d) That is a question you would have to pose to those employers. And I'm not spouting 'rose-tinted nonsense,' I'm spouting claims that are backed up with evidence - the very opposite of ignorance.

e) Rowley's expertise may indeed surpass mine, but I don't see anything to dissuade the notion that free movement of persons within the EU is unfairly hindering migrants from outside the EU.

And the only person continuing on in spite of all the evidence is you, and that won't change - no matter how many petty insults you throw in.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 8:44 pm

So in conclusion.......Remain wants to stay in Europe to nail British down jobs..Keep tariffs low....sustain the economy..Keep Britain's voice strong inside a formidable union... and wants to guarantee Britain's future...

and Duty wants out so he can be proud to be British again..

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 9:08 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So in conclusion.......Remain wants to stay in Europe to nail British down jobs..Keep tariffs low....sustain the economy..Keep Britain's voice strong inside a formidable union... and wants to guarantee Britain's future...

and Duty wants out so he can be proud to be British again..

Remain wants to stay in Europe (too true, they don't even know what the referendum is about!); nail down British jobs (except in the steel industry); keep tariffs low (but give the EU lots and lots of money); sustain the economy (but don't do too well, the EU charges you extra for that!); keep Britain's voice strong inside a formidable union (the UK has never held substantial influence within the EU, but don't let that put you off!); and guarantee Britain's future (as a satellite state of the United States of Europe).

Or you could vote leave for: the restoration of parliamentary sovereignty; to regain the supremacy of our courts; to control our borders; to regain control of our fishing waters; to take our seat with the World Trade Organisation; to conduct our own trade deals; to take back our ludicrous membership fee; and to open our once-beautiful nation out to the developing, expanding world.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 01 Feb 2016, 9:19 pm

greengoblin wrote:...Plus there is the unanswerable argument about limitless numbers and finite land.
While I don't pretend to address the need/cost for social/NHS support/education etc for incoming migrants, the idea we're running out of land to concrete over is tosh. Less than 5% of our land mass is 'concreted over'.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 9:46 am

greengoblin wrote:A lot of the debate on here is about the economy, but to me the social impact of immigration is much more important and irreversible. We used to be a much more friendly and cohesive society because people had shared roots with the people around them. Research has shown that monocultures are happier places. We can never go back to that but we need to shut the door now and try and create as integrated a society as we can.

Plus there is the unanswerable argument about limitless numbers and finite land.

Oh dear god......where to start...!! picard

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 10:07 am

I'm not sure I'd bother Toppy, I'm not sure that sort of person can be reasoned with really...

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 10:09 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'm not sure I'd bother Toppy, I'm not sure that sort of person can be reasoned with really...

Nice bit of prejudice thrown in there, very neatly done. thumbsup

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 10:10 am

Yeh, much better off wrapping up prejudice in a "but I like some" red-herring....

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 10:16 am

It's just incredibly tiresome to read posts by people who think themselves so morally superior to another's viewpoint that it is somehow beneath them to give a meaningful reply, or that that other poster should be dismissed as 'that sort of person' and henceforth their viewpoint is irrelevant.

This is meant to be a 'debate' forum, after all. You are expected to disagree with each other, but to do so in a way that is conductive to a debate.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 10:28 am

Ok, will stop being petty now.

That said, goblin's rhetoric does present everyone else with a moral highground, even if not sought out.

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Post by greengoblin on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 11:51 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ok, will stop being petty now.

That said, goblin's rhetoric does present everyone else with a moral highground, even if not sought out.

This is the problem with the left's approach to the debate on immigration. If you're against immigration, then you automatically hate immigrants and are a nasty racist.

I don't blame the immigrants, who have been allowed to come here legally over the years, for immigration policy. They've done the rational thing and improved their living standards.

I blame government policy.

Hope that helps.

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 11:52 am

OK, I'll stop being flippant for a minute then.

Thing is, there are things that are wrong with Europe, in particular I'm not comfortable with some countries having too much say in how other countries are run (see Greece, where Europe through Germany basically forced through a great host of reforms that went directly against the democratic will of the Greek people). I still think the positives far outweigh the negatives, and as an academic my choice is entirely straightforward if I only think of myself.

I am getting a bit frustrated by Cameron's negotiations, his narrow-minded focus on what is a fairly minor point is annoying. Very few migrants from the EU end up claiming benefits (I think official statistics put it at somewhere like 2%?), and you're really not saving much by banning them from doing so. Therefore his insistence on putting this four-year ban on the table is IMO distracting from the real issues and what should be a very serious debate about a very important decision.

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Post by Rowley on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 12:15 pm

greengoblin wrote:

This is the problem with the left's approach to the debate on immigration. .

Christ on a bike, how far to the right do you have to be to describe Top Hat as left wing!!!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 12:19 pm

Rowley wrote:
greengoblin wrote:

This is the problem with the left's approach to the debate on immigration. .

Christ on a bike, how far to the right do you have to be to describe Top Hat as left wing!!!

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh just what I was thinking!! laughing

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Post by Lowlandbrit on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 12:25 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Thing is, there are things that are wrong with Europe, in particular I'm not comfortable with some countries having too much say in how other countries are run (see Greece, where Europe through Germany basically forced through a great host of reforms that went directly against the democratic will of the Greek people).
I am getting a bit frustrated by Cameron's negotiations, his narrow-minded focus on what is a fairly minor point is annoying.
The migrant issue is a simple, emotive issue to campaign on which is why it's getting all the attention but I agree that it's really not the most important thing. The key thing is how you feel about the safeguards from the Federal Europe/Euro as currency movements that so many of the top people in the EU commission are in (in part because they're the sort of people that get excited about running for EU office).

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 12:27 pm

Ironically, as noted by the Economist, 'in work' benefits aren't even the most important issue in relation to either immigration or welfare.

Saying that, what DC is asking for is sensible, reasonable and logical. It's just also a frustrating distraction from more important issues!

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Post by greengoblin on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 1:08 pm

Rowley wrote:
greengoblin wrote:

This is the problem with the left's approach to the debate on immigration. .

Christ on a bike, how far to the right do you have to be to describe Top Hat as left wing!!!

I'm talking about the cultural left you dingbat, which is the more important distinction nowadays. But please do try to deflect the debate some more.

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Post by superflyweight on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 1:15 pm

Yeah jeff you dingbat, this is your chance to live in a racially pure Britain with no immigrants - just like it was back in the ....errr..... never.


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 02 Feb 2016, 1:31 pm

superflyweight wrote:Yeah jeff you dingbat, this is your chance to live in a racially pure Britain with no immigrants -  just like it was back in the ....errr..... never.  


Sieg heil!

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