YES is miles ahead of NO in latest EU referendum poll !!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 02 Jun 2015, 2:14 pm

First topic message reminder :

Latest ICM poll - Should Britain stay in Europe ????...

Stay in 59%.......................Get out 41% .....

Common sense seems to be prevailing..


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Post by Azzy on Fri 19 Feb 2016, 4:55 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Azzy wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:what were his points?
From memory:

- Coming out of the single market means you have no control over it, and have to pay whatever prices it demands/ - Norway is struggling due to this

- Being on the outside of Europe isn't wise in these troubled times (ie, ISIS and Russia, we should stick together)

1) Other way round. The UK has a trade deficit with the European Union - they need us more than we need them. Norway may be struggling, but then Norway isn't the 5th largest economy in the world.

2) A good thing, then, that the UK are members of Nato and permanent members of the UN Security Council! Whereas being in the EU renders our border security to be wholly lax - something that the people of Paris tragically discovered.
Farron stated your point 1, that the UK would be (I think) £3bn better off per year - but that that figure doesn't include cost of job and business losses, and the higher cost of doing business with Europe as the market would drive its price up for the UK in response to the exit. That $3bn gets wiped off quickly, says Farron.

NATO does diddly squat. It's done nothing in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Libya, Ukraine, most of Africa - you name it, NATO is ineffectual. I know two people who have served high up in NATO military circles, and both were frustrated at the lack of power to do anything substantial. The UN is hardly an effective tool either.

Our borders didn't serve us well when the IRA were bombing the hell out of us. Borders mean nothing to the determined attacker.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 19 Feb 2016, 6:21 pm

Azzy wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Azzy wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:what were his points?
From memory:

- Coming out of the single market means you have no control over it, and have to pay whatever prices it demands/ - Norway is struggling due to this

- Being on the outside of Europe isn't wise in these troubled times (ie, ISIS and Russia, we should stick together)

1) Other way round. The UK has a trade deficit with the European Union - they need us more than we need them. Norway may be struggling, but then Norway isn't the 5th largest economy in the world.

2) A good thing, then, that the UK are members of Nato and permanent members of the UN Security Council! Whereas being in the EU renders our border security to be wholly lax - something that the people of Paris tragically discovered.
Farron stated your point 1, that the UK would be (I think) £3bn better off per year - but that that figure doesn't include cost of job and business losses, and the higher cost of doing business with Europe as the market would drive its price up for the UK in response to the exit. That $3bn gets wiped off quickly, says Farron.

NATO does diddly squat. It's done nothing in Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Libya, Ukraine, most of Africa - you name it, NATO is ineffectual. I know two people who have served high up in NATO military circles, and both were frustrated at the lack of power to do anything substantial. The UN is hardly an effective tool either.

Our borders didn't serve us well when the IRA were bombing the hell out of us. Borders mean nothing to the determined attacker.

1) I think there are far too many variables, with regards to our economy, to make any grand predictions on the effect that leaving the EU will have on the UK. It is reasonable to assume that we will be somewhere between marginally worse-off and marginally better-off. It is also reasonable to conclude that, if we put it in terms of individual households, the difference for said households will be a few hundred pounds each way.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-questionable-numbers-eu-debate/21765

What I do not think is questionable is that our trade with the EU is declining, due to the glories of a globalising world. Leaving the EU will allow us the freedom to: a) conduct our own trade deals; and b) be members of the World Trade Organisation. This points us towards a road which is far greater in potential, over the long-term, than being confined in the EU.

But of course, this is not the main issue. The main issue of this referendum is the question of: who governs our country? Do we want a Parliament that is sovereign? A judicial system that is supreme? Control of our own borders?

Do we want to be an independent country, or a satellite state of the European Union?

Quite amusingly, I spoke to one gentleman the other day who was manning a stall from the (incorrectly-named) 'Stronger In Europe' group. He was very excitedly telling me about how households benefited to the tune of a few hundred quid because of the EU. He did not seem to realise that what he was effectively saying was that in exchange for the surrender of our own mechanisms that enable us to be an independent, functioning democracy, we get a paltry 30 pieces of silver in return (if his figures are correct, which are doubtful).

2) You seemed to be suggesting that leaving the EU would make us isolated in times of strife. I was merely pointing out that this would not be the case, for we are members of Nato and the UN Security Council.

In terms of ISIS, their threat has never been greater thanks to the idiotic actions of the German Chancellor. ISIS threatened to flood Europe with their jihadists amongst the tidal wave of economic migrants and refugees that came across the Mediterranean. Thusly, Merkel's response was to allow 1.1 million 'refugees' into her country, with little to no checks. It is reasonable to assume that the odd ISIS fighter is amongst these 1.1 million. And when these people get German passports, they have free entry to this country. It may be difficult to police your borders, but that does not mean that our nation should not try to prevent any further ISIS fighters and sympathisers from entering.

In terms of Russia - our allies against Napoleon, Hitler and ISIS - they are being provoked by the expansionist actions of the EU, most notably in Ukraine. Putin is not our enemy. We are not his.

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 19 Feb 2016, 6:29 pm

The BBC has been told that Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary, and close friend of David Cameron, has decided to oppose him in the EU referendum and campaign for the UK to leave the European Union.

Good, good. Just need Uncle Boris to sign up now.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Fri 19 Feb 2016, 6:32 pm

Gove is about as popular as a hedgehog up the a*se. Boris might swing it ( the vote - not the hedgehog)

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Post by Duty281 on Fri 19 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

Very Happy

The thing about Gove is that his taking the first step may very well be the precursor to other cabinet ministers deciding they will back Leave.

I'm aware his popularity is pretty much zero.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 6:30 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768

Yay, Cameron has successfully got bugger all in his negotiations. Something that will not even tickle the 'Leave' voters; something that will make the 'Remain' voters squirm with embarrassment; and something that will take the 'Don't Know' voters in one solid direction.

And he may very well get less than bugger all, after the European Commission and Parliament have picked it through with the federal comb.

"God bless you, Mr Chamberlain Cameron, we're all mighty proud of you. You look swell holding your umbrella, all the world loves a wonderful fellow. So carry on, Mr Chamberlain Cameron, you know we're all with you, and when we shout 'God bless you Mr Chamberlain Cameron', our hats go off to you! Come on, everybody!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HREwAVExBBw&t=1m3s

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 8:33 am

If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 7:31 pm

23rd June - British independence day. thumbsup

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Sat 20 Feb 2016, 7:48 pm

Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



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Post by Duty281 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 1:03 am

Duty281 wrote:Very Happy

The thing about Gove is that his taking the first step may very well be the precursor to other cabinet ministers deciding they will back Leave.

I'm aware his popularity is pretty much zero.

Another five have joined up, and Boris is likely to tag along tomorrow (for personal gain, one feels, not principle, like Mr. Gove).

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:18 pm

https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.b2slcwchn

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Post by GSC on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 12:50 pm

To be honest, I've always suspected we'll stay in.

Much easier to make a case for maintaining the status quo
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Post by Duty281 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 6:45 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.b2slcwchn

1a) "EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone," - Jean Claude Juncker can't be thrown out any voter!

1b) "but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either," - But then the UK government has a vested interest in looking after the people of Liverpool, because they are directly democratically accountable. A commissioner from Poland cares very little about the UK, for instance, a predominant reason for why the UK is often marginalised by the EU.

2) "only 13% of laws come from EU level." - Estimates range from 10-50%, there is nothing conclusive.

3) "the most powerful transnational Parliament." - So amazing that it cannot enact new legislation!

4a) "Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque." No idea what this is referring to. But the EU (led by Merkel) did encourage a mass migration of people from North Africa, mostly economic migrants and a few refugees, which has caused huge internal problems for member states.

4b) "the nastier sort of xenophobe" Do you want your nation's borders to be secure at the time of a great terror threat? You do?! How dare you, you <insert insult here>

5) "Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP." The problem being of course that the UK holds very minimal influence within the EU, making any chance of reform highly unlikely.

6) "Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage." No, being the 5th largest economy in the world, one of the greatest manufacturers (still), having the freedom to trade, and opening ourselves out to the world rather than being tethered to a failing political union - that is the means to being a success on the international stage.

7) "And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?" Just throw in some insults here (I've never heard Farage or Helmer say they want to close down immigration).

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 7:25 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:https://medium.com/idea-of-europe/why-michael-gove-is-wrong-on-europe-479b50c5f23b#.b2slcwchn

1a) "EU decisions are taken by ministers of member states and the European Parliament, both of whom can be thrown out by their voters. Sure, they can’t be thrown out by British voters alone," - Jean Claude Juncker can't be thrown out any voter! dont know enough about this one, sorry

1b) "but then the voters of Liverpool can’t throw out the UK Government on their own either," - But then the UK government has a vested interest in looking after the people of Liverpool, because they are directly democratically accountable. A commissioner from Poland cares very little about the UK, for instance, a predominant reason for why the UK is often marginalised by the EU.Yet in this country politicians dictate to what valuable voters might want, not what is best. In the same way as Mr Poland may back reforms that suit his country (although I find this thought of the UK being a marginalised voice a tad unlikely), government here will dictate policies based on winning votes or commercial interests, or powerful allies. Arguably, the UK Government has limited interest in the people of Liverpool, as the people of Liverpool widely distrust the Conservatives anyway

2) "only 13% of laws come from EU level." - Estimates range from 10-50%, there is nothing conclusive.

3) "the most powerful transnational Parliament." - So amazing that it cannot enact new legislation!

4a) "Finally, the idea that a French plumber moving to the UK (or a Brit retiring to Spain) has brought desperate refugee camps to our borders is just grotesque." No idea what this is referring to. But the EU (led by Merkel) did encourage a mass migration of people from North Africa, mostly economic migrants and a few refugees, which has caused huge internal problems for member states. with an idea of aid, damn ugly aid

4b) "the nastier sort of xenophobe" Do you want your nation's borders to be secure at the time of a great terror threat? You do?! How dare you, you <insert insult here> some of us think this "us and them" attitude is the problem

5) "Every EU law he saw could have been altered by a British minister or a British MEP." The problem being of course that the UK holds very minimal influence within the EU, making any chance of reform highly unlikely. I suspect if they are not having influence it is because their argument is weak. I also trust these issues to be dealt with in a way that lessons corporate control, as well as gives stability between government changes

6) "Being outside the EU does not mean being a success on the international stage." No, being the 5th largest economy in the world, one of the greatest manufacturers (still), having the freedom to trade, and opening ourselves out to the world rather than being tethered to a failing political union - that is the means to being a success on the international stage. something we are currently, as well as on strong terms with close beneficiaries and, basically, customers

7) "And if Gove doubts that, he should look at the people standing next to him on the Out platform. Nigel Farage, George Galloway, Roger Helmer. Are these people who want to create an open and optimistic UK; or are they not rather people who want to put up barriers, close down immigration, turn back the clock to some imagined fifties heyday?" Just throw in some insults here (I've never heard Farage or Helmer say they want to close down immigration).
when your team is Farage, Gove and Galloway you are basically the most comical team of politicians on show, and that should be a notable consideration.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 7:53 pm

1b) The UK is marginalised because we are one voice out of 28 in the European Commission, and form approximately 10% of members in the Parliament.

4a) Which has caused a horrific breakdown on the continent, increased tensions and...well it's all a bloody mess. Calais is the epitome of this near-disaster.

4b) It's thoroughly boring to be incorrectly labelled as a xenophobe, or a racist, simply because you want this nation to be as secure as possible, and not have a repeat of Paris, or 7/7.

5) It's for the same reason as 1b. To highlight how weak our influence is:

"FOI documents reveal that, since records began in 1996, Britain has opposed 55 measures in the Council of Ministers, and been overruled 55 times."

I doubt our arguments have been weak 55 consecutive times! All 28 member states of the EU have a differing set of social and economic challenges; it's highly unreasonable to think we could all pull in the same direction

6) We could be doing better - by securing independence and not being chained to a Eurofederalist state. Our trade with the EU is declining, and will continue to decline. We cannot take our seat on the World Trade Organisation, or have the freedom to conduct our own trade deals, until we leave the EU.

7) Farage is a bloody hero. He has single-handedly done more to deliver this referendum to the British people than any other politician, by a considerable distance. The only time a party other than Labour or Conservative have won an election in the last 100 years was UKIP in 2014, and Farage was almost the sole driving force.

I don't particularly like Galloway, but I have been pleasantly surprised by the passion shown by Gove in the early stages.

And more comical than Kinnock, Blunkett and Blair, one wonders?

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 21 Feb 2016, 11:44 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35625067

Can anyone explain this lady's logic?

She wants Scotland to gain independence from the United Kingdom, but she then wants Scotland to surrender that new-found independence to the European Union as soon as possible. Headscratch

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:55 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.


Last edited by navyblueshorts on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 9:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:58 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 10:21 am

Boris backs LEAVE.

Makes some very good points re legal colonisation too - which has always been my major issue with the EU, not economics or immigration.

So now I agree with Tim Farron and Boris Johnson...........bugger!

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 1:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-35625067

Can anyone explain this lady's logic?

She wants Scotland to gain independence from the United Kingdom, but she then wants Scotland to surrender that new-found independence to the European Union as soon as possible. Headscratch

It's quite simple Duty and the following explanation will be issued to all SNP supporters to avoid confusion.

The EU is a political and economic union of nations with separate cultural identities and legislatures who work together and individually for the common good. VOTE TO REMAIN

The UK is a political and economic union of nations with separate cultural identities and legislatures who work together and individually for the common good. VOTE TO LEAVE

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Post by GSC on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 1:26 pm

There's a brilliant short clip on the beeb of them asking people why they were leaving a conference after Galloway was announced as a speaker.

It then cuts directly to George Galloway for his reaction.
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Post by Steffan on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 5:50 pm

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 6:00 pm

One of the best politicians I've seen is old George..

I'm a huge fan..

Sure he'll be gutted at all the lightweights walking out..

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:16 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute fucknugget moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:22 pm

Duty281 wrote:
4a) Which has caused a horrific breakdown on the continent, increased tensions and...well it's all a bloody mess. Calais is the epitome of this near-disaster.

4b) It's thoroughly boring to be incorrectly labelled as a xenophobe, or a racist, simply because you want this nation to be as secure as possible, and not have a repeat of Paris, or 7/7.

Woe is thy. This is nonsense and so weak. I haven't labelled anyone a xenophobe, although I will go ahead and leave it to you to decide whether I think you are both, but that was not my point. Some of us think fearmongering like "not have a repeat of Paris, or 7/7" is rabble-rousing, purposefully used to cause a tension between races, nationalities and faiths.

And I would disagree that the EU is causing this mess.


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Post by Rowley on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:30 pm

In the last few days Louise Mensch, Michael Gove and George Galloway have come out in the exit camp. At this rate the stay campaign will not have to do any actual campaigning. We only need Jeremy Hunt to declare for the exit camp and the debate will be all but over.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:38 pm

Don't forget IDS

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 8:54 pm

Would have been better for Remain if the date of the vote was the same as the May elections.....

Not sure there is a huge interest in Europe in this Country and turnout could be important...I imagine BREXIT will be more motivated...

Closer than expected for me..But remain will win..

Latest poll has it 15 points ahead..

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 22 Feb 2016, 10:23 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
4a) Which has caused a horrific breakdown on the continent, increased tensions and...well it's all a bloody mess. Calais is the epitome of this near-disaster.

4b) It's thoroughly boring to be incorrectly labelled as a xenophobe, or a racist, simply because you want this nation to be as secure as possible, and not have a repeat of Paris, or 7/7.

Woe is thy. This is nonsense and so weak. I haven't labelled anyone a xenophobe, although I will go ahead and leave it to you to decide whether I think you are both, but that was not my point. Some of us think fearmongering like "not have a repeat of Paris, or 7/7" is rabble-rousing, purposefully used to cause a tension between races, nationalities and faiths.

And I would disagree that the EU is causing this mess.


I know you haven't labelled anyone a xenophobe, I was referring to the author of that article which you posted and his insinuations.

It's not fear-mongering to say that having open borders with 27 other countries will increase our chances of being attacked by terrorists, it's common sense. We know ISIS are a very active threat. We know that the gravest terror attack on the continent in 70 years took place a mere three months ago. We know that it is the only through the sheer brilliance of our secret services which have prevented similar occurrences taking place on British soil.

And we further know that the naive idea of open borders makes it easier for these terrorists to zip from country to country on the continent (thank you, EU). Oh, and inviting a million or so from North Africa has probably seen the odd ISIS jihadist come over as well (thank you, EU).

It is not purposefully used to cause a tension between 'races' (What does this even mean?) or nationalities (since this isn't a national threat) or faiths (since we only have a problem with a minor, extremist faction of one faith).

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Post by Azzy on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:27 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute Frak moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated
Twice in the same lifetime you and I agree Dolph, someone must have altered the space-time continuum Laugh

If Michael Gove wants us to leave, then stay we shall.

Which I must say, is astonishingly good politics from Cameron - his mates Gove and Johnson, pretending to want to leave the EU so that no right-minded individual would vote with them. Genius.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:53 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute Frak moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated
Excellent. A wonderful, evidence-based, non-biased opinion of someone you have clearly no knowledge of. Congrats. Going to be a great 3 months with sort of debating 'skill'....
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 9:59 am

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute Frak moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated

Teacher??

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:02 am

ICM have released their weekly tracker on the EU referendum. The poll was conducted between Friday evening and today, so it was after Cameron’s EU deal was announced but was almost entirely before Boris Johnson endorsed the leave campaign (only eleven responses are “post-Boris”). Topline voting intentions are REMAIN 42%, LEAVE 40% – so wholly in line with ICM’s polling before the deal. Tabs are here.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

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Post by Mad for Chelsea on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:40 am

Time and time again, the public votes show that the "not sure" ultimately tend to stick with the "devil-you-know" rather than take the plunge into the unknown. We saw it in the last GE, we saw it in the Scottish referendum. Would be very surprised if it was any different this time around.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:54 am

I don't think the GE really reflected 'the devil you know' as LD's took such a pounding.

It was monikered 'the night of the shy Tory' rightly and for good reason. Though many of us are now regretting it....

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:55 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute Frak moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated
Excellent. A wonderful, evidence-based, non-biased opinion of someone you have clearly no knowledge of. Congrats. Going to be a great 3 months with sort of debating 'skill'....

Yeah, this is debate. Well done for showing me the way. You appear to have learned something from Gove, and learning things under Gove is not something often evidenced, believe me.

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 10:59 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Time and time again, the public votes show that the "not sure" ultimately tend to stick with the "devil-you-know" rather than take the plunge into the unknown. We saw it in the last GE, we saw it in the Scottish referendum. Would be very surprised if it was any different this time around.

Only 45% of voters in the GE voted for either Conservative or Lib Dem, and voting to remain part of the union in Scotland was probably more down to the lack of a coherent economic plan, than sticking with the "devil-you-know".

And I'm not sure the UK being independent counts as an unknown, I'm sure this nation has been independent before.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 11:20 am

There were also almost 3 million 'new' UKIP voters.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 4:55 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:If Gove wants us to leave then I'll vote to stay. Gove is a moron.
Nice. Except Gove is far from a moron. Disagree with his politics by all means, but he's very far from a moron.

No, he's a moron. An absolute Frak moron. I wish him nothing but ill will and he is the main reason I will be voting to stay. He is a horrid, empty vessel who reminds me of why politicians are to be hated
Excellent. A wonderful, evidence-based, non-biased opinion of someone you have clearly no knowledge of. Congrats. Going to be a great 3 months with sort of debating 'skill'....

Yeah, this is debate. Well done for showing me the way. You appear to have learned something from Gove, and learning things under Gove is not something often evidenced, believe me.
OK. How's this then for size? I don't see or hear anything re. Gove from the judiciary that says he's doing anything other than a good job. He's clearly an intelligent man (a.k.a. not a moron) but don't let that get in the way of your outpourings. Personally (and I'm not even pro-Gove), I think he said a lot of sensible stuff re. education but it was all drowned in knee-jerk BS from many of the teaching profession. Given your lack of anything other than a shout of "Moron!", I'm not sure it's wise of anyone to "believe" you is it?
My point (which you clearly missed) is that he's not a moron.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 5:30 pm

Personally I'd say a state school kid that went on to get a 2:1 from Oxbridge was anything but a 'moron'. He may be a numpty, to some, but not a moron.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:27 pm

Yeah, his academic grade of a 2:1 (I got a bloody 2:1) means he can't be a moron. Sounds like a strong defence of a Gove backer though, an academic result is the point of the education system after all.

And as one of those in the teaching profession Navy, I have knowledge on this, other than being sensitive to the word moron and deriving one meaning from it. But it's fine, your kids are the ones suffering from his inadequacies so who cares.

My point, that you still seem to be missing, is that he's a moron. And you're a Kumquat

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:36 pm

The education system is a complete mess in this country. Unfair to blame it on a sole figure.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:44 pm

It's not a name you say in a staff room. If you can't blame it on the Secretary of State for Education when they drove nails into the body then you can't blame anyone. All the teaching unions did, but he just got moved around. Funny how failure is so acceptable within the Conservatives but not the education system. Kids deserved to be judged and discarded, not politicians eh

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:46 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.

Hmm.....well never saw a Nationalist screwing a pig. Laugh
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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 6:49 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.

Hmm.....well never saw a Nationalist screwing a pig. Laugh

Sturgeon not married then?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:00 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.


Hmm.....well never saw a Nationalist screwing a pig. Laugh

Sturgeon not married then?

Is that the best you can do?

When this Euro referendum was being talked about I saw it as a one horse race with the vote to staying in surely winning. However, Cameron's incompetence is making it more interesting. He has done a deal with Europe that many of even his own party see as an almighty mistake. The Tories are split right down the middle by this and the polls are moving in the wrong direction for him. He'd better have his prayer mat out because if the UK opt out then he'll be out of No. 10.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:07 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.


Hmm.....well never saw a Nationalist screwing a pig. Laugh

Sturgeon not married then?

Is that the best you can do?

When this Euro referendum was being talked about I saw it as a one horse race with the vote to staying in surely winning. However, Cameron's incompetence is making it more interesting. He has done a deal with Europe that many of even his own party see as an almighty mistake. The Tories are split right down the middle by this and the polls are moving in the wrong direction for him. He'd better have his prayer mat out because if the UK opt out then he'll be out of No. 10.

He's got very little to lose as he's not contesting the next election and whoever the next leader is, is going to get it in the neck

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:11 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:Anyone see glaring similarities between this and the Scottish independence referendum? There are plenty.

All ready banks and big companies threatening to pull out of UK if they vote to opt out of Europe (as they did in Scottish independence run-in).

People up for opting out of Europe as they are fed up with big brother (Europe) having too much of a say in UK affairs (similarities again as this is how many Scots see Westminster).

Those opting out of Europe looked upon very unfavourably by those opting in (much like happened in Scottish independence debate).

I wonder if those backing a pull out of Europe will be painted as crazed anti-Europeans as Scots were of being anti-English who voted for independence. Point being that people are NOT anti-Europe or anti-English just because they feel they'd be better off going it alone.

Anyway carry on debating...... thumbsup



Yep. I noticed - quite funny really. I also noticed that, in general, the only crazies in the Scottish Ref were Nats.


Hmm.....well never saw a Nationalist screwing a pig. Laugh

Sturgeon not married then?

Is that the best you can do?

When this Euro referendum was being talked about I saw it as a one horse race with the vote to staying in surely winning. However, Cameron's incompetence is making it more interesting. He has done a deal with Europe that many of even his own party see as an almighty mistake. The Tories are split right down the middle by this and the polls are moving in the wrong direction for him. He'd better have his prayer mat out because if the UK opt out then he'll be out of No. 10.

He's got very little to lose as he's not contesting the next election and whoever the next leader is, is going to get it in the neck

Well it would shorten his reign as PM by a couple or so years. Also, if he believes so passionately in remaining in Europe, his feeble attempt to curry favours with his weak deals with the EU could definitely come back to blow up in his face and force the UK out of Europe.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:18 pm

Cameron has quite a lot to lose......The guy is so vehemently pro European should he lose the vote there is no way he will be allowed to preside over the transition..

He wants to leave under his own steam... not as a loser who's told there is no other choice..

Cameron goes this year if Leave wins..

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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 7:23 pm

Possibly, and probably but I don't think he gives as much of a sh*t as you think he will. If we leave the EU theres going to be low confidence for a while and next man along is going to take it up the a*se. Dunno what's in it for Boris really, On a hiding to nothing.

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