What can we do about ISIS ???

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not interested in the historical blame game...........We have a very big problem at the moment as the atrocity over the weekend shows.........

I'm at a loss at what to do about iSIS........

Personally think the horse has bolted....

Tunisia can happen anywhere at anytime...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 15 Nov 2015, 7:16 pm

In 7/8 months time Euro 2016 soccer takes place in France...

Bit of a worry.

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Post by Guest on Sun 15 Nov 2015, 7:42 pm

Support Assad to defend his country.  He kept a fairly tight ship.

All the interventions of US & NATO have either directly or indirectly helped ISIS, as ISIS was fighting Assad & US and European prime policy was to topple Assad at all costs, following past success with toppling Saddam Hussein and Colonel Ghadaffi.  ISIS is allegedly supported by Saudi Arabia.  Europe happy to allow five thousands of its citizens to go to Syria to help with ISIS. But the brutality of ISIS has grown too much for the media to ignore, but US & Europe still dithering over their number one target Assad.  They are beginning to move to the position that ISIS might be as bad as Assad - but they still claim that Assad is responsible for all the refugees, despite ISIS saying in February of this year they are going to swamp Europe with refugees as part of their asymmetric war tactic ...

It needs boots on the grounds - best to support Assad and use his Syrian troops.  You could support the Kurds but Nato's ally Turkey is actually bombing the Kurds because they don't like them that much.  US has a special deal to involve the Iranians but not sure how Saudi Arabia would like that.

Europe could perhaps get its own house in order and prevent its own citizens going to join ISIS to help support the mayhem and crack down on the radical Islamic clerical network funded by Saudi Arabia who move freely around Europe gathering up recruits.

I heard somewhere that the US and Europe want to build a pipeline through Syria so Europe can get quick access to Gulf Oil and so undercut Russia Gasprom and Oil. That's why they want to focus on toppling Assad and why Russia would prefer him not to be toppled.

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Post by Duty281 on Sun 15 Nov 2015, 7:56 pm

Nore Staat wrote:Support Assad to defend his country.  He kept a fairly tight ship.  

All the interventions of US & NATO have either directly or indirectly helped ISIS, as ISIS was fighting Assad & US and European prime policy was to topple Assad at all costs, following past success with toppling Saddam Hussein and Colonel Ghadaffi.  ISIS is allegedly supported by Saudi Arabia.  Europe happy to allow five thousands of its citizens to go to Syria to help with ISIS. But the brutality of ISIS has grown too much for the media to ignore, but US & Europe still dithering over their number one target Assad.  They are beginning to move to the position that ISIS might be as bad as Assad - but they still claim that Assad is responsible for all the refugees, despite ISIS saying in February of this year they are going to swamp Europe with refugees as part of their asymmetric war tactic ...

It needs boots on the grounds - best to support Assad and use his Syrian troops.  You could support the Kurds but Nato's ally Turkey is actually bombing the Kurds because they don't like them that much.  US has a special deal to involve the Iranians but not sure how Saudi Arabia would like that.

Europe could perhaps get its own house in order and prevent its own citizens going to join ISIS to help support the mayhem and crack down on the radical Islamic clerical network funded by Saudi Arabia who move freely around Europe gathering up recruits.

Excellent post.

Unfortunately, it doesn't look as though the Prime Minister is thinking along those lines - he's meeting with Putin tomorrow to try and get a Russian commitment to removing Assad from office; something which Putin will surely not agree to, and something which will further hinder efforts to defeat ISIS.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sun 15 Nov 2015, 7:59 pm

These things are not in anyones control

Protect your families is all I can offer. People on here asking what can be done like what they think matters.

Let the Most High judge these things, the wicked and guilty will incure his wrath.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 15 Nov 2015, 8:15 pm

Do me a favor....

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Post by aja424 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:01 am

I see the Russians and now the French have retaliated to the i.s threat. To be honest, if a lack of British involvement spares us the attacks such as the Russian airliner and Paris massacre, then I'm all for staying well clear.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:13 am

aja424 wrote:I see the Russians and now the French have retaliated to the i.s  threat. To be honest, if a lack of British involvement spares us the attacks such as the Russian airliner and Paris massacre, then I'm all for staying well clear.
We are involved.
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Post by aja424 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:22 am

Think we should retract though. Not worth British civilian lives.

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:36 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:These things are not in anyones control

Protect your families is all I can offer. People on here asking what can be done like what they think matters.

Let the Most High judge these things, the wicked and guilty will incure his wrath.

1. This is the kind of stuff that zealots say so knock it off

2. God gave us free will for a reason, not to just sit back and say he'll sort everything out in the end.

3. Some really good posts but I honestly don't think there's anything we can do at this moment in time, not to say we should stop trying but it's a massive middle Eastern problem and we need them countries along with the highly respected religous leaders to come out and condemn every person in IS whenever something like this happens. Educate the youngsters that this is not the way to go and regardless of which religion you follow, God/Allah etc etc will not reward you for commiting atrocious acts.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 10:39 am

The thing is not to get involved in the first place. Once you get involved if you back out you show weakness and these motherf*ckers will exploit it. If you want to retract you gotta do it after a quiet period not after something that will be perceived as scaring seven shades of sh*t out of you.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:36 am

It's not about showing weakness...

It's about weighing up whether intervention in the long run is going to help....My guess is it won't !!

Afghanistan was unavoidable we had to do something about that..

I think we should just let these Countries get on with it and if innocents are stuck in the middle....It's just the way the cookie crumbles..

Look after your own people.....People suffering over here..

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:38 am

That's fair enough - but if you do it now it will look as if you bottled it. Then the F*ckers will attack here anytime theres something they don't like. America's unwillingness to pay ransoms or deal with (opposing) terrorists is one of their wiser policies.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:43 am

Who cares about bottle....

Lives are more important.......

They are going to try to attack here anytime they like anyway.....

Time should be spent protecting the borders and improving intelligence....Not peeing good money down the drain in futile gestures.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:47 am

Again I don't disagree but doing it now isn't smart. Withdrawal should be planned and on own terms not handing a propaganda victory for these bastards.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:52 am

They win all the time according to their propaganda.....

You think Russia lost the cold war.....

I win arguments with my wife all the time but I let her have the last word because it just isn't worth the hassle....

People needing food banks over here.....NHS is in a mess.......Tax credits are being cut .....Job losses......and we should be peeing millions on another Country in a war we can't win....

Give them their victory because in their own minds they'll win whatever happens !!.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:06 pm

Theres a difference between one superpower backing off from another and a superpower backing off from bunch of lunatics on meth and cocaine. Isis is just a glorified gang but it's a dangerous one. Any success will act as a catalyst for more atrocities.

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:08 pm

Ban all faith schools for a start...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:12 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:Theres a difference between one superpower backing off from another and a superpower backing off from bunch of lunatics on meth and cocaine. Isis is just a glorified gang but it's a dangerous one. Any success will act as a catalyst for more atrocities.  

Success is in the eye of the beholder...

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:19 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Theres a difference between one superpower backing off from another and a superpower backing off from bunch of lunatics on meth and cocaine. Isis is just a glorified gang but it's a dangerous one. Any success will act as a catalyst for more atrocities.  

Success is in the eye of the beholder...

The beholder is stupid and socially awkward attention starved kids who will do anything to be part of something they perceive to be worthwhile or something that will garner them the attention they so desperately crave. Not sure giving them that on a plate is the best idea

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:22 pm

ShahenshahG wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
ShahenshahG wrote:Theres a difference between one superpower backing off from another and a superpower backing off from bunch of lunatics on meth and cocaine. Isis is just a glorified gang but it's a dangerous one. Any success will act as a catalyst for more atrocities.  

Success is in the eye of the beholder...

The beholder is stupid and socially awkward attention starved kids who will do anything to be part of something they perceive to be worthwhile or something that will garner them the attention they so desperately crave. Not sure giving them that on a plate is the best idea

Ridiculous.

ISIS is a lot more than a glorified gang. It's this sort of thinking that has allowed them to proliferate so much in the first place. They're far more organized, far better resourced and far, far smarter than so many are giving them credit for. In my opinion, this sort of ignorance contributes to attacks such as these. Thinking that they're just some far-off, gun-toting rabble is not only stupid, it's destructive.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:37 pm

I'm perfectly aware of it's organisational qualities but those qualities were acquired through the use of professional armies disbanded post iraq. They have a finite amount they can recruit or a finite amount they can recruit and train to be effective fighters in the short time . Giving them recruits is stupid. Again - I was talking about perception rather than the reality - it's David vs Goliath and if david wins (or is seen to win) then he attracts more and more recruits. If they were just heading to Iraq it wouldn't be a problem but when you've got groups like boko haram pressured into joining ISIS (or face extinction by mass desertion) and school kids with no apparent reason in France, in Germany, Russia UK and USA then it becomes a bigger problem. Let's not strengthen the enemy eh?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 12:48 pm

You don't think that people who are easily led and indoctrinated will follow anyway.....

Think you're underselling the intelligence of people in that part of the world..

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Post by kingraf on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 1:04 pm

I had a Syrian neighbour a while back. She didn't like Assad much. She was a Kurd though and Assad would probably wipe them off the face of the earth if given the chance. Bad as IS are, I'm not in favour of putting a race to the sword to try solve another problem.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 1:14 pm

JFK on South Vietnam 1963 - "They will have to win or lose the war themselves.."..

All that waste of humanity and money...


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Post by Pal Joey on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 1:20 pm

Nore Staat wrote: ISIS is allegedly supported by Saudi Arabia.
And possibly Turkey (money from oil sales) and Israel (weaponry) Sounds unbelievable I know but could this be true?

It needs boots on the grounds - best to support Assad and use his Syrian troops.  You could support the Kurds but Nato's ally Turkey is actually bombing the Kurds because they don't like them that much.  US has a special deal to involve the Iranians but not sure how Saudi Arabia would like that.
Yeah, it must be infuriating for them. I think it's the right move though. For now.
Also, we need to work with Russia but redefine targets. This is what Obama is currently doing I believe.
Leave Assad for now and concentrate on cutting off the snake's head - IS.

I heard somewhere that the US and Europe want to build a pipeline through Syria so Europe can get quick access to Gulf Oil and so undercut Russia Gasprom and Oil.  That's why they want to focus on toppling Assad and why Russia would prefer him not to be toppled.

That's why control of the northern Iraqi oil fields is critical.

IS is selling cheap barrels to Turkey, the Saudis are trying to snuff out competition (other smaller Gulf states, Basra in Southern Iraq namely)... but not by that much! IS is undercutting them... giving it away to Turkey. It's a real mess.

However, regaining control of the oil in Iraq will severely compromise IS's ability to buy more weaponry whist at the same time begin to restore Iraq's former oil production capacity (think it's around 20% up there) and put it on a better footing if and when things return to "normal".
This is what China is banking on, btw. Huge investment potential for them whilst also reforming an end point to the Old Silk Road into a New Silk Road... or Pipeline.
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Post by kingraf on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 1:59 pm

Problem with the Middle East is that there are no friedns or allies. Just guys who happen to be pointing guns at the same people. The Muslim Brotherhood is fighting Saudi Arabia in Egypt, but fighting with Saudi Arabia in Yemen. ISIS Al Qaeda are helping the Brotherhood in Yemen, but basically fighting Brotherhood acolytes in Iraq.
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Post by Hero on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:02 pm

IS have released a video stating Washington DC is next.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:06 pm

Lucky for them.... There is plenty of room left in Guantanimo....

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Post by Hero on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:33 pm

Based upon past attacks, I don't think buckets of remains would be bothered about going there.

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Post by Guest on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:57 pm

There'd be an outcry about them being kept in metal buckets as opposed to plastic ones thus breaching their human (remains') rights

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 4:58 pm

Man, that was a really, really good quip.

Another please.

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 5:00 pm

Pr4wn wrote:Man, that was a really, really good quip.

Another please.

It's not that good - pails in comparison to a lot of other bucket jokes I've seen.

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Post by Guest on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 5:17 pm

superflyweight wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Man, that was a really, really good quip.

Another please.

It's not that good - pails in comparison to a lot of other bucket jokes I've seen.  
I've got a handle on it

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 5:25 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Man, that was a really, really good quip.

Another please.

It's not that good - pails in comparison to a lot of other bucket jokes I've seen.  
I've got a handle on it

There is a hole in your statement..

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Post by Guest on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 5:35 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
superflyweight wrote:
Pr4wn wrote:Man, that was a really, really good quip.

Another please.

It's not that good - pails in comparison to a lot of other bucket jokes I've seen.  
I've got a handle on it

There is a hole in your statement..
I agree it's no way to carry on

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 7:08 pm

Isis are despicable. But if i was a an Iraqi I'd say the same about the US and their disgraceful foreign policy which is by far the best recruiter for Islamic fundamentalism, something Obama knows hence his isolationist attitude.

Until the west acknowledges that these atrocities are not more significant when they happen in western cities and realize that the injustices created by corporate sponsored political policy in the middle east are perpetuating fundamentalism, then this will continue

Sadly i think fundamentalism now has its own internal drive; whereas before it was a genuine struggle against invaders now it is an ideological struggle and a clash of civilizations, which will end in all out war between east and west.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 7:27 pm

Victims of terror are not equal.

I have to confess the outpouring of sorrow at these attacks is heartfelt but it also disgusts me.

The cry today is ''LETS JUST KILL EM''

I agree ISIS need to be killed because they are killers but this Syrian conflict is much more complicated then that. The Wests policy in that region has been one of recklessness and very confusing at times.

Syria is one big cake and various factions are taking their slice and once again innocent people are the victims on both sides. We are stuck in the middle of a sinister game. Its not as simple as US AGAINST THEM although western media present it to you as such.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 7:34 pm

Gwlad wrote:Isis are despicable. But if i was a an Iraqi I'd say the same about the US and their disgraceful foreign policy which is by far the best recruiter for Islamic fundamentalism, something Obama knows hence his isolationist attitude.

Until the west acknowledges that these atrocities are not more significant when they happen in western cities and realize that the injustices created by corporate sponsored political policy in the middle east are perpetuating fundamentalism, then this will continue

Sadly i think fundamentalism now has its own internal drive; whereas before it was a genuine struggle against invaders now it is an ideological struggle and a clash of civilizations, which will end in all out war between east and west.

and If I was from kuwait or a kurd I'd think the Iraqi foreign policy was despicable....

Obama is following public opinion......He's so pacifistic Guantanimo is still there..


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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 7:54 pm

Funny how France needed US permission to bomb ISIS after an attack on thier own people in their own homeland.

The US gave them the intel of what to hit and where.

Not quite the French revenge as portrayed in the media.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 8:01 pm

We are working with them.......Targeting Isis command structure...We have the best intelligence...

I wish you'd...

1. Get your facts right...

2. Stop this boring anti US crap...


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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 8:13 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We are working with them.......Targeting Isis command structure...We have the best intelligence...

I wish you'd...

1. Get your facts right...

2. Stop this boring anti US crap...

Just seems odd.

You would think that ISIS this supposed major threat in the world would be a free for all for anyone at war with them but no no you must see uncle sam first in order to get the go ahead.

The US did'nt wait to invade IRAQ over what it claimed was a direct threat to the west yet ISIS is ACTUALLY attacking the west and the US don't seem too eager anymore.

strange

Their doing everything BUT destroying the 1 thing they say is the major threat to the world.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 8:18 pm

We have the best intelligence and we are working with them......

I imagine there are places we don't want them to bomb...

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 16 Nov 2015, 8:37 pm

Look this isn't difficult, rather like Israel and Palestine this is a struggle of cultures and socio political injustice coupled with years of corporate greed and ridiculous US foreign policy. We are reaping what we have sown.

I suggest anyone who wants a lesson in de escalation watches the Gatekeepers on netflix

Until we realize that revenge begets revenge and stop the boobie for tat bombing then what do you expect on our streets?

Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

That doesn't justify their actions, they are a disgrace to humanity, but while states answer their tyranny with more bombs then they will continue to fight, as I would, just categorically not the way they are doing it

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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 8:16 am

Gwlad wrote:
Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

Abo's, eskimos, Native Americans. Arguably the most exploited people on the planet. Takes a certain sort in my opinion - that is human nature not racist. Some people are just wired up wrong so that life has little value.

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Post by Breadvan on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 8:26 am

Syria's a mess. Assad is fighting the FSA and various militia's. are these aligned with IS or are they fighting each other? IS are a bigger threat to Assad than the fsa so why haven't they agreed some kind of truce to counter the brutality of IS? Something stinks..
The Paris & Beruit attacks surely now is enough to get world leaders talking to each other to get a combined force together and get boots on the ground because IS aren't going away. US, Russia, Europe, Iran, and the Arab states need to put historical differences aside and start talking. I know its not as simple as that as who exactly are the the IS leadership? The Saudi's? Governments in Jordan, Yemen? Who is relaying orders and rhetoric to radicalise young minds in the west?
A right mess and sadly, more innocent ppl are going to die before this is all sorted out..
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 8:29 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We are working with them.......Targeting Isis command structure...We have the best intelligence...

I wish you'd...

1. Get your facts right...

2. Stop this boring anti US crap...

Just seems odd.

You would think that ISIS this supposed major threat in the world would be a free for all for anyone at war with them but no no you must see uncle sam first in order to get the go ahead.

The US did'nt wait to invade IRAQ over what it claimed was a direct threat to the west yet ISIS is ACTUALLY attacking the west and the US don't seem too eager anymore.

strange

Their doing everything BUT destroying the 1 thing they say is the major threat to the world.
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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 9:52 am

Is this ONETWO guy a troll or something?

Personally, I think this intelligence sharing is a fantastic idea, particularly when dealing with a fractious enemy such as ISIS. The French and the US are allies, they have been allies for a very long time so good on them for collaborating to achieve a common goal. I also think that a lot more needs to be done within Europe on the intelligence front. Britain has by far the best intelligence agency in Europe and countries like Belgium are clearly lagging quite far behind. The UK should share all it can with its neighbours and allies to try to prevent attacks such as the one in Paris. Indeed, a former Belgian PM has suggest the formation of a European Intelligence Agency. Do we think this is a good idea?

After ISIS has been defeated - and it will be defeated - there has to be a major review in both the US and Europe on foreign policy. I subscribe to the theory that groups such as ISIS are borne out of the conflicts initiated by countries like the US, UK and France. We are not the world's police and we are not entitled to the resources of another country. We cannot install a government that bests suits us and, most importantly, we cannot impose democracy on a country that clearly is not ready to embrace it.

I think it was Tony Benn that said that democracy is not something that can be thrust upon a people, it must be embraced organically.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 10:04 am

Gwlad wrote:Look this isn't difficult, rather like Israel and Palestine this is a struggle of cultures and socio political injustice coupled with years of corporate greed and ridiculous US foreign policy. We are reaping what we have sown.

I suggest anyone who wants a lesson in de escalation watches the Gatekeepers on netflix

Until we realize that revenge begets revenge and stop the boobie for tat bombing then what do you expect on our streets?

Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

That doesn't justify their actions, they are a disgrace to humanity, but while states answer their tyranny with more bombs then they will continue to fight, as I would, just categorically not the way they are doing it

It's ideology...........If you read about Isis their aims are for the world to become a caliphate....

If it's about revenge...WHY PICK ON FRANCE ???. They weren't in Iraq ???......

Portugal, Spain, Holland, Hungary, Norway, Denmark, Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech rep all were...

They are in Europe why not pick on them...???

It's just garbage........

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Post by Pr4wn on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 10:08 am

Quite simply, France was a soft target with a massive Muslim population. A country that is easily picked on and any attack will create large divisions between the country's Christian and Muslim people.

Also, and I genuinely believe this, ISIS don't give a toss about airstrikes. For every militant killed by an airstrike more are recruited by the civilian deaths, poverty and homelessness that they create. They want more bombs.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:03 pm

More than that, airstrikes are exactly what they want. They literally wrote a book about it: Management of Savagery. The strategy is to manage resentment and violence with the goal of provoking military reactions to create propaganda opportunities.

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