What can we do about ISIS ???

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not interested in the historical blame game...........We have a very big problem at the moment as the atrocity over the weekend shows.........

I'm at a loss at what to do about iSIS........

Personally think the horse has bolted....

Tunisia can happen anywhere at anytime...

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:25 pm

Even more stomach churning than I.S. not taking out U2 when they had the chance, is the fact that their actions have dragged uber-c*nt George Galloway out of the woodwork to offer his considered opinion.

George Galloway talking to Jeremy Vine....f*ck me, I now whole heartedly support the complete annihilation of I.S. by any means necessary...I mean, one can only take so much twuntishness on the radio.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:41 pm

How can you annihilate ISIS....They breed like ants.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:59 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How can you annihilate ISIS....They breed like ants.
Anihilate the ideologies not the people. We need to engage the states in the region particularly Sunni nations like Saudi Arabia which provide so much support and finance for them.

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:01 pm

Our politicians and the "apologists" have created a 1984 George Orwell scenario where the "truth" is distorted or wholly fabricated and dumbed down like a children's book or a fundamentalist religious dogma (even though atheistic).  So we have catch-all meaningless words and phrases: "terrorists", "evil-doers", "attack on civilisation", "attack on humanity", "War on Terror", "Islam is Peace", "Not all Muslims", "Attack by Evil" ... this is hardly scholarly debate or analysis.  

So what happens: France bombs Syria harder - but who exactly is it bombing?  When people say kill them all - who are "them" and how do we distinguish them from "not them".  We get extensive coverage of the Parisian attack, but virtually no media coverage of exactly what the French and others are actually bombing in Syria and Iraq nor its aftermath, apart from a few selective grainy images of buildings, tents, lorries being blown up with the words: we have just blown up evil and terror.

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Post by Scottrf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:12 pm

'They' are a number of merged organisations, mainly counter insurgency groups formed during the invasion of Iraq as offshoots of Al Qaida led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. They expanded into Syria to form ISIL/ISIS. The problem is that while a lot of the command structure is known, the militants are less so, and the support network is huge, expanding to some of our 'allies' in the region.

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:38 pm

Scottrf wrote:'They' are a number of merged organisations, mainly counter insurgency groups formed during the invasion of Iraq as offshoots of Al Qaida led by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. They expanded into Syria to form ISIL/ISIS. The problem is that while a lot of the command structure is known, the militants are less so, and the support network is huge, expanding to some of our 'allies' in the region.
The support network includes citizenry of Europe & North America - where it recruits expertise and strategic thinkers.  It's a form of traditional warfare in Iraq / Syria and asymmetric warfare against Europe (where Europe would annihilate them under traditional warfare due to the armoury asymmetry).  But Europe and North America have other goals in the region which are not openly discussed or debated - hence their past total focus on Assad and them allowing ISIS to destroy world heritage sites in the desert (human history) which could have easily been defended.

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:15 pm

Nore Staat wrote:So what happens: France bombs Syria harder - but who exactly is it bombing?  When people say kill them all - who are "them" and how do we distinguish them from "not them".  We get extensive coverage of the Parisian attack, but virtually no media coverage of exactly what the French and others are actually bombing in Syria and Iraq nor its aftermath, apart from a few selective grainy images of buildings, tents, lorries being blown up with the words: we have just blown up evil and terror.

Drone attacks solve very little, other than destroying more of Syria, creating more chaos, more homelessness, more poverty & eventually more refugees. IS, then use the drone attacks as a propaganda tool, too recruit vulnerable people with nothing left, who have no purpose anymore. It's playing into their hands.

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:19 pm

All this talk is lovely but none of you have thought about the horror of Jeremy Vine offering his considered opinion on the subject. Enough is enough, I.S. must be eradicated and the world spared Vine's inane ramblings.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:27 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Look this isn't difficult, rather like Israel and Palestine this is a struggle of cultures and socio political injustice coupled with years of corporate greed and ridiculous US foreign policy. We are reaping what we have sown.

I suggest anyone who wants a lesson in de escalation watches the Gatekeepers on netflix

Until we realize that revenge begets revenge and stop the boobie for tat bombing then what do you expect on our streets?

Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

That doesn't justify their actions, they are a disgrace to humanity, but while states answer their tyranny with more bombs then they will continue to fight, as I would, just categorically not the way they are doing it

It's ideology...........If you read about Isis their aims are for the world to become a caliphate....

If it's about revenge...WHY PICK ON FRANCE ???.  They weren't in Iraq ???......

Portugal, Spain, Holland, Hungary, Norway, Denmark, Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech rep all were...

They are in Europe why not pick on them...???

It's just garbage........

Everyone seems to have a stake in Syria.

Maybe this has missed you but during the begenning of the troubles in Syria France flooded that nation with Arms and funding that we was told was for the ''moderate'' groups who were fighting Assad. These weapons have found there way to ISIS. We now know that these so called moderates did not exist they are all so called Jihadists and you can bet your bottom dollar that France and the other parties like the west, SA, Qatar, and Turkey all knew who they were arming, training and funding.

France have been knee deep in Syria long before the attacks in January and last week. This policy of flooding these countries with weapons can only lead to war and will distablize the region. This is what I call sophisticated terrorism.

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Post by kingraf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:54 pm

kingraf wrote:I offer no solutions. ISIS is strong, the East is so fragmented. The problem with ISIS is that it's not so much a group as it is a movement. With groups, you can eliminate the heads, and they tend to collapse underneath themselves. With ISIS, you can kill as much of their foot soldiers as you want, but disenfranchised Muslim youths will remain seduced by the thought of Jihad. And unlike, say the Viet Cong, ISIS are capable getting members worldwide, for obvious reasons. No solutions, just problems.

still feel the same way.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:02 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Look this isn't difficult, rather like Israel and Palestine this is a struggle of cultures and socio political injustice coupled with years of corporate greed and ridiculous US foreign policy. We are reaping what we have sown.

I suggest anyone who wants a lesson in de escalation watches the Gatekeepers on netflix

Until we realize that revenge begets revenge and stop the boobie for tat bombing then what do you expect on our streets?

Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

That doesn't justify their actions, they are a disgrace to humanity, but while states answer their tyranny with more bombs then they will continue to fight, as I would, just categorically not the way they are doing it

It's ideology...........If you read about Isis their aims are for the world to become a caliphate....

If it's about revenge...WHY PICK ON FRANCE ???.  They weren't in Iraq ???......

Portugal, Spain, Holland, Hungary, Norway, Denmark, Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech rep all were...

They are in Europe why not pick on them...???

It's just garbage........

Everyone seems to have a stake in Syria.

Maybe this has missed you but during the begenning of the troubles in Syria France flooded that nation with Arms and funding that we was told was for the ''moderate'' groups who were fighting Assad. These weapons have found there way to ISIS. We now know that these so called moderates did not exist they are all so called Jihadists and you can bet your bottom dollar that France and the other parties like the west, SA, Qatar, and Turkey all knew who they were arming, training and funding.

France have been knee deep in Syria long before the attacks in January and last week. This policy of flooding these countries with weapons can only lead to war and will distablize the region. This is what I call sophisticated terrorism.

I was referring to the point that this was all revenge for Iraq...

France was one of the few European countries not involved..

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Post by Guest on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:23 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote: Everyone seems to have a stake in Syria.

... during the begenning of the troubles in Syria France flooded that nation with Arms and funding that we was told was for the ''moderate'' groups who were fighting Assad. These weapons have found there way to ISIS. We now know that these so called moderates did not exist they are all so called Jihadists and you can bet your bottom dollar that France and the other parties like the west, SA, Qatar, and Turkey all knew who they were arming, training and funding.

France have been knee deep in Syria long before the attacks in January and last week. This policy of flooding these countries with weapons can only lead to war and will distablize the region. This is what I call sophisticated terrorism.
Likewise Soviet - Afghanistan War 1979 - 1989: US provided equipment & training & funding (S. Arabia provided most funding) to the Mujahadeen and Jihadis including Osama bin laden, to fight against the Soviets as part of a cold war strategy. This spawned al-Qaeda.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:24 pm

The British sold weapons to him..

Things change...We are where we are..

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 4:17 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:The British sold weapons to him..

Things change...We are where we are..

These policies wont change sadly.

If flooding these nations like Libya and Syria with arms is something you agree with then fair enough but it never ends well and it always ends in some violent extreme group taking root. It has been done before in South American nations which has resulted in chaos and if you look at African American communities the same trend seems to be applied. The influx of guns and drugs over the decades has resulted in thousands dead and the rise of gang culture. Bare in mind these weapons were never manufactured in AA communities in the first place. Its an effective way to distablize a people.

The same applies to these middle eastern countries. Flood them with the weapons and in some cases training and it will eventually implode.


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Post by Scottrf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 4:31 pm

And of course Mr. Osbourne's friend Rothschild (Genel energy) is involved in oil deals with ISIS, operating with permission of the British government. No conflict of interest though of course.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 4:46 pm

Scottrf wrote:And of course Mr. Osbourne's friend Rothschild (Genel energy) is involved in oil deals with ISIS, operating with permission of the British government. No conflict of interest though of course.
Just for me, could you provide your sources for the above bit of info?
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Post by Scottrf on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 6:55 pm

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/uk-us-turn-blind-eye-islamic-state-oil-sales-553879014

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 7:58 pm

This horrible mess has been going in in the Middle East since the late 1960s with one religious sect or another.

The Israel situation started it in the 60s and various conflicts in various Middle East countries has carried on and invariable the Western World has waded in trying to be the global police. Bad move.

Let the Middle East take care of their own affairs - if they want to blow each other up then it is up to them to see the wisdom of their ways and no amount of bombing by the global powers are going to make an iota of difference.

This bombing is only fanning the flames as you get gullible people easily brain-washed into supporting the IS and setting up sects in countries all over the world. They will strike again and bombing the Middle East even with a nuclear bomb isn't going to stop it.

It is probably far too late now but the western world should have adopted a Star Trek-esque approach of non-interference. Let them blow each other up - it is their countries and not worth putting a cross on our backs by getting involved.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 10:01 pm

Scottrf wrote:http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/uk-us-turn-blind-eye-islamic-state-oil-sales-553879014
Thanks for that. Interesting read and pretty sad if the majority is accurate.
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Post by aja424 on Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:32 pm

We should engage community leaders.

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Post by Gwlad on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 3:22 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Look this isn't difficult, rather like Israel and Palestine this is a struggle of cultures and socio political injustice coupled with years of corporate greed and ridiculous US foreign policy. We are reaping what we have sown.

I suggest anyone who wants a lesson in de escalation watches the Gatekeepers on netflix

Until we realize that revenge begets revenge and stop the boobie for tat bombing then what do you expect on our streets?

Would you sit back if you had suffered years of exploitation? Of watching your homes destroyed and your religion vilified? Young ISIS fighters are now born into an era of hate, into a hard wired loathing of the west and all it stands for.

That doesn't justify their actions, they are a disgrace to humanity, but while states answer their tyranny with more bombs then they will continue to fight, as I would, just categorically not the way they are doing it

It's ideology...........If you read about Isis their aims are for the world to become a caliphate....

If it's about revenge...WHY PICK ON FRANCE ???.  They weren't in Iraq ???......

Portugal, Spain, Holland, Hungary, Norway, Denmark, Slovakia, Ukraine, Czech rep all were...

They are in Europe why not pick on them...???

It's just garbage........

The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 12:52 pm

Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.
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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 1:05 pm

Also doesn't change that every Middle-Eastern country we've "intervened" in in the last twenty years is now a total basket case.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 1:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.

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Post by Mind the windows Tino. on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 1:11 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.

كنت الديك سخيف حقا .

Mind the windows Tino.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 1:12 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.

كنت الديك سخيف حقا .

haha

cheers rodders

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Post by Guest on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 1:42 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote: ...

This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.
The arabs also relied on SLAVES.  In fact the N. American slave trade had arabs in Africa (as well as certain leading African tribes) rounding up "blacks" for Europeans to buy off them.

There are historical myths on both sides (Christian and Arabic/Islamic).  That's one of the major issues in the public dialogue - "explaining" or "apologising" todays events in terms of selective myths of a thousand years ago.  A myth is a gross simplification, distortion or fabrication of history for bedtime stories for young children.  Unfortunately these bedtime stories tends to be believed by adults too - when the children grow up they still believe these bedtime stories are truth.

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 2:06 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.

You see way back then, Sicilians were like wops from northern Italy. They all had blond hair and blue eyes. But, then the Moors moved in there, they changed the whole country. They did so much f*ckin’ with the Sicilian women, that they changed the whole blood-line for ever. That’s why blond hair and blue eyes became black hair and dark skin.


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Post by Gwlad on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 3:31 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

Enlightenment?

You mean like two World Wars and the holocaust? A world economy underpinned by arms trading which requires wars to ill order books.

Yep we sure are enlightened.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 18 Nov 2015, 5:21 pm

Thank goodness we have got arms....

Try stopping these b**tards with stones..

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 7:41 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Thank goodness we have got arms....

Try stopping these b**tards with stones..

Typical anglo arrogance.

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Post by kingraf on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 8:56 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

Guess raaping Algerian women and beheading and castrating their men while sticking their di.cks in their mouth is a little too advanced for the Muslims
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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:47 am

kingraf wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
The ideology you refer to is borne out of years of oppressive exploitative foreign policy in the west; Isis dont discriminate between western countries to the extent you think because as you correctly point out, their proposed caliphate is the antithesis of ALL western nations. We are all their enemy.

Why France? You obviously aren't aware of the Imperial history of France in North Africa. Arguably Algeria was the precursor of extremism on North Africa and France has a terrible history there.

France is a ridiculously soft G7 target with a significant Moslem population and is a high profile Western state. Paris, the greatest city in western Europe, just got f$$ked.

ISIS want to strike at the heart of western civilization and destroy our ideology; they aren't interested in the Czech republic or countries of that ilk. Think the press care about what happens there, did they care  about Beirut?

This is shop window terrorism, no point doing it if no one is looking. And were it not in such a beautiful city that has been largely peaceful for 65 years, then it would not have us all reeling today.
Interesting post although Algeria etc is just an excuse. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslims in France who may well be better off than if they'd stayed in Algeria, but I guess that's missed. France may have done some things they'd rather forget there 60 odd years back, but as your mother might have said, "Two wrongs don't make a right". So what if Paris just got mullered? It isn't going to suddenly disappear, it's not going to change the fact that Daesh and their ilk are scum and it isn't going to change the "West's" ideological approaches.
It's obviously all the "West's" fault though so that's OK. At least we've had an Enlightenment within the last, what, 500 years - most of the Muslim world hasn't even contemplated that sort of philosophical epiphany yet and often actively refuses to engage in anything approaching it.

Guess raaping Algerian women and beheading and castrating their men while sticking their di.cks in their mouth is a little too advanced for the Muslims
Sounds like something David Cameron can empathize with

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Post by rick_dagless on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:56 am

Why don't we change the name to ISNTISNT and then they will perhaps go away

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:59 am

Then they be WASWAS

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:00 am

Oooh TISWAS

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Post by rick_dagless on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:08 am

That Sally bird is much better than terrorism...

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:17 am

I had a real crush Sally James as a child

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Post by rick_dagless on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:31 am

Whereas I bet you have real negative feelings towards terrorism...

So my point stands up Smile

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Post by Guest on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 11:50 am

rick_dagless wrote:Whereas I bet you have real negative feelings towards terrorism...

So my point stands up Smile
Like I said, had they committed these atrocities when U2 were playing I'd be less inclined to be judgmental. As it is, they've sh!t in their own cornflakes as far as I'm concerned so, yes, Sally James (from TISWAS) is/was (hahahaaaaa) better than terrorism

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Post by rick_dagless on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:26 pm

DAVE wrote:Like I said, had they committed these atrocities when U2 were playing I'd be less inclined to be judgmental. As it is, they've sh!t in their own cornflakes as far as I'm concerned so, yes, Sally James (from TISWAS) is/was (hahahaaaaa) better than terrorism

I think we have found something that all creeds/races/beliefs can agree on mate...

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Post by navyblueshorts on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:16 pm

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.
:yawn: I know all that stuff about science and the arts although I think the Moors did well enough with slavery themselves. I'd be interested though in how the thinking has gone so backward in the last several hundreds of years. What is it with that? Why is it that discussion and challenge to Islamic dogma is so frowned upon throughout the Islamic world? Please 'enlighten' me...

Gwlad wrote:Enlightenment?

You mean like two World Wars and the holocaust?  A world economy underpinned by arms trading which requires wars to ill order books.

Yep we sure are enlightened.
WTF have two World Wars and a holocaust got to do with the Enlightenment?
FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment. Just so we're clear on what I'm referring to.

kingraf wrote:Guess raaping Algerian women and beheading and castrating their men while sticking their di.cks in their mouth is a little too advanced for the Muslims
picard Huh? What's that got to do with the Enlightenment? In any case, that's the justification for butchery of innocents today? Something from ~70 years ago? Seriously?? This is by people who weren't even born then? By people who're allowed to travel freely to and leave freely from the country they carry out their butchery in? This would be the same people that're allowed to live and work in a country not of their birth? Raise a family there? Become naturalised French maybe? This would be the same people who're allowed to freely practise their own religion in the adopted country they've committed their atrocity in? A more pathetic justification for butchery, it's hard to imagine.

This is all pretty comic really. The bleeding heart liberals can't lose. If "the West" left the middle east to burn, that would be the "West's" fault. If the "West" intervened, in any way at all, then any outcome that's not Utopian would be the "West's" fault as well. Must be nice to have one's head so far up one's arse.
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Post by ShahenshahG on Thu 19 Nov 2015, 10:51 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
ONETWOFOREVER wrote:This is how ignorant some morons are.

When the Moors invaded Spain they brought science and the arts with them while the rest of Europe were freezing their nuts off in their cold a55 caves. The only reason Europe was able to take the upperhand as it were in the battle for supremacy was down to SLAVERY. Without the forced free labour you would all be typing in Arabic right now.
:yawn: I know all that stuff about science and the arts although I think the Moors did well enough with slavery themselves. I'd be interested though in how the thinking has gone so backward in the last several hundreds of years. What is it with that? Why is it that discussion and challenge to Islamic dogma is so frowned upon throughout the Islamic world? Please 'enlighten' me...

Gwlad wrote:Enlightenment?

You mean like two World Wars and the holocaust?  A world economy underpinned by arms trading which requires wars to ill order books.

Yep we sure are enlightened.
WTF have two World Wars and a holocaust got to do with the Enlightenment?
FWIW, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment. Just so we're clear on what I'm referring to.

kingraf wrote:Guess raaping Algerian women and beheading and castrating their men while sticking their di.cks in their mouth is a little too advanced for the Muslims
picard Huh? What's that got to do with the Enlightenment? In any case, that's the justification for butchery of innocents today? Something from ~70 years ago? Seriously?? This is by people who weren't even born then? By people who're allowed to travel freely to and leave freely from the country they carry out their butchery in? This would be the same people that're allowed to live and work in a country not of their birth? Raise a family there? Become naturalised French maybe? This would be the same people who're allowed to freely practise their own religion in the adopted country they've committed their atrocity in? A more pathetic justification for butchery, it's hard to imagine.

This is all pretty comic really. The bleeding heart liberals can't lose. If "the West" left the middle east to burn, that would be the "West's" fault. If the "West" intervened, in any way at all, then any outcome that's not Utopian would be the "West's" fault as well. Must be nice to have one's head so far up one's arse.

Yet earlier in this thread you saw that it's not a clear cut as that with the government conniving with people buying cut price oil from Isis. Recent mistakes. Arming Isis in the first place to destabilize a relatively stable government in Syria and Libya so we could install a pipeline through each country. Arming Saddam with chemical weapons to use on the Iranians then crying about it when those same ones were used on western troops in the first gulf war. Then using the same weapons as an excuse to sanction Iraq until (170000 children had died) then using the same weapons as a pretext to launch an illegal war.

"Denis Halliday was appointed United Nations Humanitarian Coordinator in Baghdad, Iraq as of 1 September 1997, at the Assistant Secretary-General level. In October 1998 he resigned after a 34-year career with the UN in order to have the freedom to criticise the sanctions regime, saying "I don't want to administer a programme that satisfies the definition of genocide"[35] However, Sophie Boukhari a UNESCO Courier journalist, reports that "some legal experts are skeptical about or even against using such terminology" and quotes Mario Bettati: "People who talk like that don’t know anything about law. The embargo has certainly affected the Iraqi people badly, but that’s not at all a crime against humanity or genocide."[36]

Is that not as repugnant to you as these murdering b*stards in Paris?

Alqaeda and Isis, funded and armed by the west both guilty of widespread acts of terror within western nations.

You seem to be taking this personally as if the "west" in this scenario includes you. It doesn't - You're not important enough for that neither am I or anyone else in this forum, no general no soldier no citizen. Only businessmen interested in resources and lobbying and intelligence services who love to justify their own existence by ruining other countries then whining about a lack of security or a lack of permission to be the professional perverts that most of them really are.

Can you not see the parallel between the middle east non combatant suffering and the western non combatant suffering? All people who weren't involved in the sh*t in the first place paying with their lives for business decisions made under the pretense of democracy, freedom blah blah blah.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:04 am

Seventy years ago? You really think the French army are just pushing daisies in Central and eastern Africa?

Well hopefully we can get the careless editor of this paper to change his date of publication from 2015 to 1945

http://m.mgafrica.com/article/2015-05-01-un-denies-cover-up-in-c-africa-child-sex-abuse-scandal
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 8:31 am

Shah

Nice reply and you're right, of course I can see the parallels between deaths and there's obviously a lot of complexity. Paris is nearer to home but, amazing as it may seem, I'm still similarly taken aback by civilian massacres in the middle east and elsewhere.

Raf

Huh? I thought you were talking about France in Algeria some way back, not central and East Africa now. I'm even more confused now as well, as I don't quite see how 14 soldiers in central Africa acting like pigs justifies Daesh zealots murdering >100 people in Paris, not to mention the thousands they've butchered in Syria and Iraq simply because they don't subscribe to their medieval doctrine. Presumably that sort of butchery is the fault of the French? Must be I guess.
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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 8:41 am

Its quite simple. Any time the French are in Africa they fu.ck up. Generally badly. You then act shocked when there are eight people who are angry enough at this history

You then seem to blame the problem on the Muslim East not having reached "enlightenment" in the past 500 years which I found amusing given the fact that in five years the West once managed to wipe out 20 million people. Or that as recently as a decade ago when the West backed an invasion to the WRONG country and cost up to over a million lives.
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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 9:39 am

Talking out your backside.


We have misunderstood the nature of the Islamic State in at least two ways. First, we tend to see jihadism as monolithic, and to apply the logic of al‑Qaeda to an organization that has decisively eclipsed it. The Islamic State supporters I spoke with still refer to Osama bin Laden as “Sheikh Osama,” a title of honor. But jihadism has evolved since al-Qaeda’s heyday, from about 1998 to 2003, and many jihadists disdain the group’s priorities and current leadership.

We are misled in a second way, by a well-intentioned but dishonest campaign to deny the Islamic State’s medieval religious nature. Peter Bergen, who produced the first interview with bin Laden in 1997, titled his first book Holy War, Inc. in part to acknowledge bin Laden as a creature of the modern secular world. Bin Laden corporatized terror and franchised it out. He requested specific political concessions, such as the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Saudi Arabia. His foot soldiers navigated the modern world confidently. On Mohamed Atta’s last full day of life, he shopped at Walmart and ate dinner at Pizza Hut.

There is a temptation to rehearse this observation—that jihadists are modern secular people, with modern political concerns, wearing medieval religious disguise—and make it fit the Islamic State. In fact, much of what the group does looks nonsensical except in light of a sincere, carefully considered commitment to returning civilization to a seventh-century legal environment, and ultimately to bringing about the apocalypse.


The most-articulate spokesmen for that position are the Islamic State’s officials and supporters themselves. They refer derisively to “moderns.” In conversation, they insist that they will not—cannot—waver from governing precepts that were embedded in Islam by the Prophet Muhammad and his earliest followers. They often speak in codes and allusions that sound odd or old-fashioned to non-Muslims, but refer to specific traditions and texts of early Islam.

To take one example: In September, Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the Islamic State’s chief spokesman, called on Muslims in Western countries such as France and Canada to find an infidel and “smash his head with a rock,” poison him, run him over with a car, or “destroy his crops.” To Western ears, the biblical-sounding punishments—the stoning and crop destruction—juxtaposed strangely with his more modern-sounding call to vehicular homicide. (As if to show that he could terrorize by imagery alone, Adnani also referred to Secretary of State John Kerry as an “uncircumcised geezer.”)

But Adnani was not merely talking trash. His speech was laced with theological and legal discussion, and his exhortation to attack crops directly echoed orders from Muhammad to leave well water and crops alone—unless the armies of Islam were in a defensive position, in which case Muslims in the lands of kuffar, or infidels, should be unmerciful, and poison away.


The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, “the Prophetic methodology,” which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn’t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We’ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State’s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 9:58 am

kingraf wrote:Its quite simple. Any time the French are in Africa they fu.ck up. Generally badly. You then act shocked when there are eight people who are angry enough at this history

You then seem to blame the problem on the Muslim East not having reached "enlightenment" in the past 500 years which I found amusing given the fact that in five years the West once managed to wipe out 20 million people. Or that as recently as a decade ago when the West backed an invasion to the WRONG country and cost up to over a million lives.
I don't dispute that there are and have been f*** ups in Africa. I mentioned THE Enlightenment, not simply enlightenment, but you seem to be ignoring me - deliberately. I'll make it plain for you - most of the Islamic world doesn't seem to have gone through a period of genuine introspection where it questions the ancient Islamic theocratic ideas and the power of their church. Generally, if anyone is ballsy enough to question the clerics or even, Heaven forbid, mention the Prophet by name or dare to question his 'teachings' etc, they tend to end up dead, imprisoned, flogged, stoned etc etc. The deaths in Paris have had no link made to Algeria etc. None. What.so.ever. It's all been claimed in the name of stone age theocratic bumpkins who, regrettably, have modern ordnance at their disposal.
This is only the "West's" fault in the sense that in the minds of these cretins, we're infidels and therefore deserve to die.
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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 10:08 am

This is only the "West's" fault in the sense that in the minds of these cretins, we're infidels and therefore deserve to die.

Nail on the head.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 10:23 am

You're clearly ignoring my point though. All this enlightenment talk didn't stop the west from meeting up in 1884 to carve up Africa without a single African voice in the meeting. Didn't stop the genocide of Jewish people or Belgian Congolese. Didnt stop the mass murder of Iraqis. You basially tried to claim that the problem in the Middle East is that thy haven't been enlightened and seen "the error of their ways". I'm contending that Isis would have a couple million more people to kill in rapid time before they could even be mentioned in the same breath as some of these "Enlightened" who saw the fallacy of Religion. Instead they killed whole societies for more noble pursuits. Oil for one. Money for another. Because they were failed artists in Austria and had potty training problems is another. Maybe Syrians would feel better being killed for these reasons.

Given the fact that two or three Algerians have been linked to these attacks and that another has been arrested in Germany over the attacks, I dont think establishing a link is particularly far reaching.

Another thing people don't really acknowledge is that its highly unlikely ISIS are merely religious zealots with machine guns. I suppose that makes a better narrative and they probably don't mind it too much as it certainly makes it much easier to recruit when you claim God is on your side. But they've shown no hesitation in killing Muslims, not even acknowledging or allowing them to complete the Islam final rites. ISIS is a run of the mill coup country trying to take over much of the middle East and North Africa in a bid to probably change trade routes to Asia and cut off Western supply to the Asian market. Nothing new. Sure they get their members by shouting death to the infidels instead of "Lets bring the word of God to the savages" but it's really no differebt different
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