What can we do about ISIS ???

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not interested in the historical blame game...........We have a very big problem at the moment as the atrocity over the weekend shows.........

I'm at a loss at what to do about iSIS........

Personally think the horse has bolted....

Tunisia can happen anywhere at anytime...

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:24 pm

kingraf wrote:No my post said suggested Africans didn't have the wealth Asians European nations had. You can tell that's what it suggested because that  what it says. You're conflating my statement with your own home theories.

Depends how you measure wealth, preposterous to suggest Africa has never had any wealth and/or its inhabitants have never shown any willingness to accumulate it by whatever means neccessary (including significant blood letting and general r@pe and pillage).

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:32 pm

seanmichaels wrote:I think it is a bit simplistic blaming africas ill's on Tarzan.

laughing .....

Anyway what can we do about Isis ?? Cool

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:33 pm

Again im not suggesting that. I don't know what you're reading that keeps making you repeat that. To say Africans were less materially wealthy than Eurasia isn't an opinion. Its a fact.
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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 2:38 pm

and im still not sure what your point to all this actually is; African people kill African people so that makes everything the west has ever done okay?

Fair enough but then French people kill french people so why are we so mad at ISIS?
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 3:35 pm

Laugh OK, fair play Raf. You make a shedload of good points. I would offer you Tutsis vs. Hutus but as that was Christian genocide, it hardly helps my point does it?
As an aside, recently watched this:

Spoiler:

Quite entertaining and he makes a lot of great points. It's too easy to assume Saudi/Iran etc are representative of Islam as a whole, something I'm increasingly getting caught up in. It's good to get pulled up sometimes.

As Truss says though, what do we do about Daesh though??? Come on, what's going to stop them, Boko Haram etc etc from committing more bloodthirsty nonsense? Harsh words?
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Post by seanmichaels on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 3:39 pm

I don't understand why they don't flatten Raqqa? Drop leaflets and tell civs to get out onto the desert plains. Then carpet bomb the crap out of it.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 3:44 pm

Unfortunately, too many innocents would get incinerated and the World doesn't accept that sort of thing any more. Then again, I don't think the World really knows what war means anymore either - politicians certainly don't appear to.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:08 pm

kingraf wrote:Again im not suggesting that. I don't know what you're reading that keeps making you repeat that. To say Africans were less materially wealthy than Eurasia isn't an opinion. Its a fact.

It's not a fact its hyperbole.

The African continent is hugely rich in natural resources, it's just it often wasn't Africans that made the most of exploiting those riches.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:11 pm

kingraf wrote:and im still not sure what your point to all this actually is; African people kill African people so that makes everything the west has ever done okay?

Fair enough but then French people kill french people so why are we so mad at ISIS?

Did I ever say it meant what the West has done is ok? No.

I just said drop that chip off your shoulder and making others out to be the source of everything that's ever gone wrong in the continent and that only the West/whites have ever shed people's blood there.

It isn't anyone in the West's fault that sub-sharan Africa is the only region in the world never to have expanded beyond its borders. I don't know why Africa never developed but it wasn't all the West's fault.

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Post by Gwlad on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 4:44 pm

kingraf wrote:You're clearly ignoring my point though.  All this enlightenment talk didn't stop the west from meeting up in 1884 to carve up Africa without a single African voice in the meeting. Didn't stop the genocide of Jewish people or Belgian Congolese. Didnt stop the mass murder of Iraqis. You basially tried to claim that the problem in the Middle East is that thy haven't been enlightened and seen "the error of their ways". I'm contending that Isis would have a couple million more people to kill in rapid time before they could even be mentioned in the same breath as some of these "Enlightened" who saw the fallacy of Religion. Instead they killed whole societies for more noble pursuits. Oil for one. Money for another. Because they were failed artists in Austria and had potty training problems is another. Maybe Syrians would feel better being killed for these reasons.

Given the fact that  two or three Algerians have been linked to these attacks and that another has been arrested in Germany over the attacks, I dont think establishing a link is particularly far reaching.

Another thing people don't really acknowledge is that its highly unlikely ISIS are merely religious zealots with machine guns. I suppose that makes a better narrative and they probably don't mind it too much as it certainly makes it much easier to recruit when you claim God is on your side. But they've shown no hesitation in killing Muslims, not even acknowledging or allowing them to complete the Islam final rites. ISIS is a run of the mill coup country trying to take over much of the middle East and North Africa in a bid to probably change trade routes to Asia and cut off Western supply to the Asian market. Nothing new. Sure they get their members by shouting death to the infidels instead of "Lets bring the word of God to the savages" but it's really no differebt different

Exactly

Isis may be morons I think we all agree on that, but they didnt wake up one morning and decide that we're all infidels and must be slaughtered

Any student of history knows the West has carved up the world for centuries and now what we are getting paid back by the extremist element using religion as a rallying cry. We created ISIS; we created the conditions and opportunity and for a period we even gave them the guns.

As for your Enlightenment argument blu shorts, its BS. What did the period of Enlightenment you refer to lead to; one of the bloodiest revolutions in history. Nearly every western nation has been involved in building empires and oppressing smaller nations to exploit their wealth. Now they want it back and would like to spread their hate filled doctrine in our towns and cities. And you know what, it sickens me. I hate them for what they are doing but i firmly believe that after decades of oppression they are fighting back in the only way they believe they can

Long may they rot in hell but unless we change fundamentally how we treat the smaller peoples of the world, they will keep trying to destroy us.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:01 pm

Are Truss and Raf still arguing about when that rapper hit a woman on stage?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:04 pm

I think you're part of the problem. If you think atrocities like 9/11 are in some way justified because of the way we treat little people you're out of order..

We didn't go into Afghanistan and Iraq to kill innocent civilians...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:07 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Are Truss and Raf still arguing about when that rapper hit a woman on stage?

Was he rapper ??..Thought he was some down on his luck guitarist.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:20 pm

I'm still not really sure what Afroman was. Outside of that one song about getting high, I don't know any of his songs. It does explain quite well the problems with getting high though.
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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:31 pm

Also TH I honestly don't ubderstand how you can't grasp the difference between Africa and Africans. One is a continent. The other are people. The wealth of a continent doesn't de facto lead to the wealth of its people.

An example of this would be the fracking fiasco currently occurring in the Karoo. There is wealth in the Karoo. Great wealth. But because there is no fracking in the Karoo... The people in the Karoo are poorer than People living in Cape Town which by comparison only has a mountain. An admittedly beautiful mountain but just a mountain. You don't need a chip on your shoulder to understand which area is richer. You dont even need a degree.

What you need is to drop your white guilt and get it through your head that no one has blamed the West for everything. That wasn't even the disgussion until you made it so. Sean said Africa and the Middle East had to be grateful for the West's intervention. I pointed out various examples to conclude that he was in fact talking bulls.hit. You proceed to then argue that because I don't believe one extreme, I must logically believe the opposite. It's actually amusing.
At least Truss quotes amusing groups that cite musicians for their stats. Debating with you has no upsides.
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Post by navyblueshorts on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:46 pm

Gwlad wrote:...As for your Enlightenment argument blu shorts, its BS....
Actually, it's not, but I accept that it's not a decent enough part of the argument. We didn't arrive at a non-theocratic situation overnight after some philosopher said "My word! I have experienced a most profound enlightenment! Gather round....". It certainly wouldn't do any harm for the more radical elements to have a good, long look at their theocratic outlook on the planet and their belief that they're the ones who give the orders. The theocrats' arguments are balls, as they always have been, but at least Europe has been through that and doesn't justify conquest as a function of religion anymore.

If "we" stopped and let them alone etc etc etc, do you seriously think these cretins would just go away? What do you suggest is done about the situation? Easy to blame isn't it? Any constructive suggestions?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:54 pm

ISIS aim is for the planet to become a Muslim utopia....Apparently it's the only way we can be saved...

What that has to do with Iraq you tell me..

Although you can chuck some of those virgins my way !!

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 5:57 pm

Problem with this is ISIS have declared Caliphate. All bombing the area does is

- Kill innocents
- Bring more crazies to Syria and Iraq who are HOPING TO DIE.

They literally can't lose. Thats why they are attacking the west. Theyre hoping for retaliation. Thats what they want. They want to go to war. They want to... if not lose... then look like thyve they've been bullied by the West. Thats absolutely the best way for them to gain new members. To start armageddon. To break what remaining structures of traditional there is left for them to break through.
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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:19 pm

They want retaliation and people to dislike the West.

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Post by kingraf on Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:39 pm

Precisely. I honestly couldn't tell you what the way forward is regarding ISIS.
Boko Haram is a slightly different chwlle challenge. They aren't particularly well organised. Generally come off on the wrong side of all battles, even with old gun for hire mercenaries. They really aren't particularly hot. Problem is Nigeria is a den of corruption and they are generally taking territory in which even an army of rugrats commandeered by Butter Skotch would be difficult to completely defeat.
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Post by Gwlad on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 2:22 am

navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:...As for your Enlightenment argument blu shorts, its BS....
Actually, it's not, but I accept that it's not a decent enough part of the argument. We didn't arrive at a non-theocratic situation overnight after some philosopher said "My word! I have experienced a most profound enlightenment! Gather round....". It certainly wouldn't do any harm for the more radical elements to have a good, long look at their theocratic outlook on the planet and their belief that they're the ones who give the orders. The theocrats' arguments are balls, as they always have been, but at least Europe has been through that and doesn't justify conquest as a function of religion anymore.

If "we" stopped and let them alone etc etc etc, do you seriously think these cretins would just go away? What do you suggest is done about the situation? Easy to blame isn't it? Any constructive suggestions?

Did i say we should let them be? Where? I would never advocate that but the horse has well and truly bolted. Suggesting a radical theocracy should sit down and navel gaze is frankly ridiculous and a dumb suggestion. How is that constructive? Perhaps the theocrats giving the orders are actually a reaction to the feeling that they have been exploited for years. Hate grows as a reaction to injustice.

Problem is that the simplistic military attempts to silence Islamists in general don't work. You can't destroy an ideology that way. You can hurt it but only temporarily and in fact the best way to recruit more fanatics is to keep up the bombing; escalation doesn't work, just ask Israel. I repeat, watch the Gatekeepers. The only way to break them is from within by supporting their opponents in the FSA. But in the long term unless we change our attitude to wealth and economic empire, we'll just face the same problems elsewhere.

Also you might want to tell the US that it doesn't justify conquest on religious terms anymore, it might not be obvious to you but America is a highly religious country with a highly religious population. Their wars might not be crusades in name, but from the other side, the Moslem side, perhaps all that matters is the perception that the West is attacking Islam, because most of the simple everyday victims of Western oppression are Moslems and Middle Eastern Moslems are pious.

If American troops were on my street i'd resist. Wouldn't you? Now, imagine you are an iraqi youth, an Afghan….you've grown up in war either with russia, iran or Nato. Would you pick up a gun and resist?

Isis are monsters and need destroying, but they are a monster we created and until we recognize that then we will suffer much worse than what has just happened in Paris.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 10:00 am

That's a fair answer, although I'm not sure I agree with you that theocrats shouldn't take a good look at themselves.
Yes, I'd probably want to resist if my country was invaded by someone else. I'm not sure that translates as travelling to that country, strapping explosives around myself, walking into a bar and blowing up myself and innocents though. I'm not sure these people are Iraqis or Afghans are they? So despite their recent history, they aren't the ones interested in self-immolation along with innocents.

Pretty clear then (and I'm not really averse to it) that we leave well alone in Palestine, the rest of the middle east, central Africa etc etc. We just buy the oil etc we need, do trade for what we need (regardless of with whom it's with) and let those regions go to Hell (or further into it). Withdraw all existing military (overt and covert) support/interventions, sit at home and simply hunt down those terrorists before/after they act in our own countries. Let it burn as clearly we can't be seen/trusted to be involved at all.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 10:09 am

The majority of Daesh fighters are Algerian and Jordanian are they not with a surprisingly high amount of Belgians, this has nothing to do with Iraq or Afghanistan.

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Post by Pal Joey on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 11:32 am

Mostly Sunni Arabs from Iraq and Syria, Harrier.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 12:05 pm

The situation in Syria is worse the Iraq.

Lets be real. Western policy in regards to Syria has been reckless. Just 2 years ago idiot Cameron was asking parliment for permission to BOMB the Assad regime. What would that mean today? would ISIS be in control of Syria?

I am totally against ISIS but they are a result of Western intervention in the country. Remember that the west backed the so called free Syrian army. Sounds good free Syrian army lets back them because they fight for freedom/democracy . Now we know that there is no element in Syria fighting for freedom/democracy.

The elements the west were supporting were groups like Al Quida and Al Nusra Front all so called jihadists. The west did all they could to ensure there was a civil war in Syria all in the hope of displacing Assad. They knew who these groups were they have the intel but they dressed in up in the media as a pro democracy struggle.

I am tired to be honest. Whats the point of discussing what should be done to ISIS if people like TRUSS would rather ignore the wests involvement in the whole matter as if it does not matter. Of course ISIS need killing if they are attacking outside their so called state but what will the west do to ensure that this policy that they implemented in Afghanistan in the 80's that gave rise to Al Qiada, will not happen again? Namely flooding these nations with arms and funding and then going in to resolve the problem after a shed load of people have died.

People seem to be content with starting the book in the middle rather then from the beginning.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 12:44 pm

Decent post 1-2. As I said, let's withdraw, sit back, keep an eye out for the terrorists and let them all fight it out. Trade with anyone who has what we want/need. Let Israel do what they want as well while we're at it. None of our concern. No ethical considerations. Just business. Much cleaner.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 1:25 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:Decent post 1-2. As I said, let's withdraw, sit back, keep an eye out for the terrorists and let them all fight it out. Trade with anyone who has what we want/need. Let Israel do what they want as well while we're at it. None of our concern. No ethical considerations. Just business. Much cleaner.

I think we should never had joined US with there regime change agenda. It has done nothing to improve situations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Syria. However bad the west thought of Saddam, Assad and Gadafi duck the region was in much better shape then it is now. Fair enough if you agree with this agenda which if you remember G.W.Bush outlined in his axis of evil speech, but I think it has just made the world a dangerous place for ALL involved. Sad thing is I don't think we have a say in the matter as a people the west will just go ahead with this for whatever reason.

As for Israel I don't agree. I can't agree with letting a mighty power like Israel oppress a poor, occupied, humiliated people. The west went into Iraq, Libya and Syria under the pretence that those regimes would attack their own people because they have the weapons and air craft to do so yet Israel seems to get away with it.

I think all the problems in the middle east stem from 1948.

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Post by kingraf on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 1:42 pm

Let them be. ISIS will collapse under itself I reckon. The fuel that keeps it going is feelings of injustice, etc. Invading countries to put West appointed puppets in charge is going to end badly.

Also reckon we should be careful of linking every single attack to ISIS. The Paris attack probably was, but we should be wary of over crediting them. The Russian airplane disaster was a tragedy, but ISIS' desire to make sure everyone knew they were responsible was a little questionable I thought. When everyone thought the Plane had been shot down ISIS claimed that they had shot the plane down. Once it became clear that there was in fact a bomb explosion... ISIS claimed they bombed the plane. I was prepared to play along with this inconsistency and put it down to the higher ups not being in touch with jihadists, but then they came out with that article which which gave the incident a preposterous back story.
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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 1:51 pm

Nothing is clear at the moment raf and I had the same sentiments about the russian plane bombing.

What seems to be clear is that you have the west and its allies on 1 side and Iran and Russia on the next.

Just recently there was a meeting of world leaders in Vienna where both Russia and Iran have asked that the world powers involved in the Syria conflict compile a list of all the TERRORIST GROUPS they are working with?????

WHAT?????

That in itself is just insane but says a lot about whats really going on. Madness

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Post by kingraf on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

I don't think its a de facto case of they didnt bomb the Plane... I just found the fact that they basically said "look whatever it you guys think happened... we definitely did it" ingeresting. ISIS in Syria and Iraq are on the decline they've been pegged back badly (think their territory is down by 1/4 from its peak). They need to change the narrative. Wouldn't surpriese me if they begin to play a game of lost and found with any terrorist attack not immediately claimed by someone else. ISIS are nearing the point of having to roll the dice.
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Post by Gwlad on Sat 21 Nov 2015, 7:04 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:That's a fair answer, although I'm not sure I agree with you that theocrats shouldn't take a good look at themselves.
Yes, I'd probably want to resist if my country was invaded by someone else. I'm not sure that translates as travelling to that country, strapping explosives around myself, walking into a bar and blowing up myself and innocents though. I'm not sure these people are Iraqis or Afghans are they? So despite their recent history, they aren't the ones interested in self-immolation along with innocents.

Pretty clear then (and I'm not really averse to it) that we leave well alone in Palestine, the rest of the middle east, central Africa etc etc. We just buy the oil etc we need, do trade for what we need (regardless of with whom it's with) and let those regions go to Hell (or further into it). Withdraw all existing military (overt and covert) support/interventions, sit at home and simply hunt down those terrorists before/after they act in our own countries. Let it burn as clearly we can't be seen/trusted to be involved at all.

First off i do not advocate what they are doing in terrorist terms but, i totally understand where it has come from. I detest them and i would happily fight them myself. I repeat these are monsters, but they see US as monsters. I wonder just how many innocents have died in 2 Iraq conflicts one of which was illegal, in Afghanistan for literally centuries and traditionally the playground of empire armies who always get booted out eventually because the Afghans actually like a good fight. And now the West decides to go all moral when Syria is being eviscerated by its own leader.

You can't defeat a people. What you can only achieve in trying to do that is to recruit more people to their cause and harden their resolve to the extent it turns into exported terrorism. As fir the origins of these particular terrorists, no i accept there is no evidence they are Afghan or Iraqi but what the Middle East believes is that the West has sponsored instability in the region in order to control oil and their own interests and that when it should have acted to defeat Isis and remove Assad, it failed to do so because finally, after creating the monster, it learned it could not defeat it (or depending on your outlook, has lost its balls)

Should we be isolationist about the middle East…I just dont know. I have to say I think its an option. But unfortunately Europe must act because with Isis dominating the middle East there will be a diaspora of such magnitude that Europe will be unable to handle. Should we let them self determine, as is their right and and let the sunni shiite battle happen. There will be further slaughter of the innocents no doubt as the stated aim of Isis is a caliphate; if they achieve it we are looking at religious war across the world IMO.

It is possible that we could finally say enough is enough and send in boots on the ground but this time it would be for keeps so i dont see it happening UNLESS the US gets hit again. The US will be working behind the scenes to dissemble Isis and anyone who knows Tim Weiner's book on the CIA knows they are absolutely crap at that.

Its a mess, but lets not forget, its of our own making. We've been playing around with the Middle East for the last two centuries at least. I can't say I am surprised.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sun 22 Nov 2015, 3:41 pm

Heaven forbid they take any responsibility for their actions.....

Like I said it's all about idealism.......They want a caliphate....

I mean Americans didn't particularly enjoy having Pearl Harbor destroyed.......But they weren't hunting Japanese people after 1945.....and using Pearl Harbor as an excuse...

In fairness neither are ISIS using Iraq..........Because only an idiot would think this terrorism is about anything other than promoting a perverted form of Islam..

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 1:19 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Heaven forbid they take any responsibility for their actions.....

Like I said it's all about idealism.......They want a caliphate....

I mean Americans didn't particularly enjoy having Pearl Harbor destroyed.......But they weren't hunting Japanese people after 1945.....and using Pearl Harbor as an excuse...

In fairness neither are ISIS using Iraq..........Because only an idiot would think this terrorism is about anything other than promoting a perverted form of Islam..

only a simpleton would think that this is the reason for terrorism.

If there wasn't oil in the Middle East I expect it would be more like Africa in that no one would give a sh$t about it except for its mining potential

Try social injustice, years of tyrannical empire building, Sykes-Picot, exploitation of resources, theocracy, a clash of civilizations, freedom of knowledge and increasing education standards, over population and scarce resources, radicalization of disenfranchised youths, right wing European politics, racism, the EU, freedom to cross EU borders, the f^&king media, tv, gender politics, religion, oil, illegal invasions, MI6 and the CIA, Western foreign policy, Israel, Saudi, the Arms trade and the need for wars, fat re construction contracts, lack of national identity vs tribal enmity vs versions of Islam, Judaism, nuclear politics, secularism, the dissolution of religion ion Europe, merchant banking, sadism, the Koran, the Bible, greed, Catholicism, patriarchal misogyny, social envy, despotic dictators propped up by the West, Islamists, Hezbollah, Russia, Iran, The domino effect and Communism, The Republican Party, GW Bush Snr and Jnr, famine, poor people trying to live the same lives we all want, capitalism, materialism.

And that's just for starters.

As for pearl harbor the US knew it was coming...ever wonder why the US carrier fleet was out on a jaunt that day?

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 8:24 am

Gwlad wrote:only a simpleton would think that this is the reason for terrorism.

If there wasn't oil in the Middle East I expect it would be more like Africa in that no one would give a sh$t about it except for its mining potential

Try social injustice, years of tyrannical empire building, Sykes-Picot, exploitation of resources, theocracy, a clash of civilizations, freedom of knowledge and increasing education standards, over population and scarce resources, radicalization of disenfranchised youths, right wing European politics, racism, the EU, freedom to cross EU borders, the f^&king media, tv, gender politics, religion, oil, illegal invasions, MI6 and the CIA, Western foreign policy, Israel, Saudi, the Arms trade and the need for wars, fat re construction contracts, lack of national identity vs tribal enmity vs versions of Islam, Judaism, nuclear politics, secularism, the dissolution of religion ion Europe, merchant banking, sadism, the Koran, the Bible, greed, Catholicism, patriarchal misogyny, social envy, despotic dictators propped up by the West, Islamists, Hezbollah, Russia, Iran, The domino effect and Communism, The Republican Party, GW Bush Snr and Jnr, famine, poor people trying to live the same lives we all want, capitalism, materialism.

And that's just for starters.

As for pearl harbor the US knew it was coming...ever wonder why the US carrier fleet was out on a jaunt that day?
Huh? Now we're getting a bit "tin foil hat" I think. That would suggest the U.S. knowingly allowed the Japanese navy to murder thousands at Pearl for what reason exactly? The U.S. may have had suspicions the Japanese were up to something, but to suggest they knew exactly what was coming is a bit much I think.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 9:25 am

Best summary I've read so far, c/o Hassan Ali via Facebook:

"Incase you don't know what's happening in the middle east:

President Assad ( who is bad ) is a nasty guy who got so nasty his people rebelled and the Rebels ( who are good ) started winning ( Hurrah!).
But then some of the rebels turned a bit nasty and are now called Islamic State ( who are definitely bad!) and some continued to support democracy ( who are still good.)

So the Americans ( who are good ) started bombing Islamic State ( who are bad ) and giving arms to the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) so they could fight Assad ( who is still bad ) which was good.
By the way, there is a breakaway state in the north run by the Kurds who want to fight IS ( which is a good thing ) but the Turkish authorities think they are bad, so we have to say they are bad whilst secretly thinking they're good and giving them guns to fight IS (which is good) but that is another matter.

Getting back to Syria.
So President Putin ( who is bad, cos he invaded Crimea and the Ukraine and killed lots of folks including that nice Russian man in London with polonium poisoned sushi ) has decided to back Assad ( who is still bad ) by attacking IS ( who are also bad ) which is sort of a good thing?

But Putin ( still bad ) thinks the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) are also bad, and so he bombs them too, much to the annoyance of the Americans ( who are good ) who are busy backing and arming the rebels ( who are also good).

Now Iran ( who used to be bad, but now they have agreed not to build any nuclear weapons and bomb Israel are now good ) are going to provide ground troops to support Assad ( still bad ) as are the Russians ( bad ) who now have ground troops and aircraft in Syria.

So a Coalition of Assad ( still bad ) Putin ( extra bad ) and the Iranians ( good, but in a bad sort of way ) are going to attack IS ( who are bad ) which is a good thing, but also the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) which is bad.

Now the British ( obviously good, except that nice Mr Corbyn in the corduroy jacket, who is probably bad ) and the Americans ( also good ) cannot attack Assad ( still bad ) for fear of upsetting Putin ( bad ) and Iran ( good / bad) and now they have to accept that Assad might not be that bad after all compared to IS ( who are super bad).

So Assad ( bad ) is now probably good, being better than IS ( but let’s face it, drinking your own wee is better than IS so no real choice there ) and since Putin and Iran are also fighting IS that may now make them Good. America ( still Good ) will find it hard to arm a group of rebels being attacked by the Russians for fear of upsetting Mr Putin ( now good ) and that nice mad Ayatollah in Iran ( also Good ) and so they may be forced to say that the Rebels are now Bad, or at the very least abandon them to their fate. This will lead most of them to flee to Turkey and on to Europe or join IS ( still the only constantly bad group).

To Sunni Muslims, an attack by Shia Muslims ( Assad and Iran ) backed by Russians will be seen as something of a Holy War, and the ranks of IS will now be seen by the Sunnis as the only Jihadis fighting in the Holy War and hence many Muslims will now see IS as Good ( Doh!.)

Sunni Muslims will also see the lack of action by Britain and America in support of their Sunni rebel brothers as something of a betrayal ( mmm.might have a point.) and hence we will be seen as Bad.

So now we have America ( now bad ) and Britain ( also bad ) providing limited support to Sunni Rebels ( bad ) many of whom are looking to IS ( Good / bad ) for support against Assad ( now good ) who, along with Iran ( also Good) and Putin ( also, now, unbelievably, Good ) are attempting to retake the country Assad used to run before all this started?

So, now you fully understand everything, all your questions are answered!!!!"

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 9:31 am

Gwlad wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Heaven forbid they take any responsibility for their actions.....

Like I said it's all about idealism.......They want a caliphate....

I mean Americans didn't particularly enjoy having Pearl Harbor destroyed.......But they weren't hunting Japanese people after 1945.....and using Pearl Harbor as an excuse...

In fairness neither are ISIS using Iraq..........Because only an idiot would think this terrorism is about anything other than promoting a perverted form of Islam..

only a simpleton would think that this is the reason for terrorism.

If there wasn't oil in the Middle East I expect it would be more like Africa in that no one would give a sh$t about it except for its mining potential

Try social injustice, years of tyrannical empire building, Sykes-Picot, exploitation of resources, theocracy, a clash of civilizations, freedom of knowledge and increasing education standards, over population and scarce resources, radicalization of disenfranchised youths, right wing European politics, racism, the EU, freedom to cross EU borders, the f^&king media, tv, gender politics, religion, oil, illegal invasions, MI6 and the CIA, Western foreign policy, Israel, Saudi, the Arms trade and the need for wars, fat re construction contracts, lack of national identity vs tribal enmity vs versions of Islam, Judaism, nuclear politics, secularism, the dissolution of religion ion Europe, merchant banking, sadism, the Koran, the Bible, greed, Catholicism, patriarchal misogyny, social envy, despotic dictators propped up by the West, Islamists, Hezbollah, Russia, Iran, The domino effect and Communism, The Republican Party, GW Bush Snr and Jnr, famine, poor people trying to live the same lives we all want, capitalism, materialism.

And that's just for starters.

As for pearl harbor the US knew it was coming...ever wonder why the US carrier fleet was out on a jaunt that day?

Your hatred of the USA chucks all rationale out of the window..

The British knew Pearl Harbor was coming and warned us...But as with 9/11 we were too arrogant and dismissive to believe the Japs or Al qaeda would have the audacity. ..

Learn your history..

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 23 Nov 2015, 6:10 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Heaven forbid they take any responsibility for their actions.....

Like I said it's all about idealism.......They want a caliphate....

I mean Americans didn't particularly enjoy having Pearl Harbor destroyed.......But they weren't hunting Japanese people after 1945.....and using Pearl Harbor as an excuse...

In fairness neither are ISIS using Iraq..........Because only an idiot would think this terrorism is about anything other than promoting a perverted form of Islam..

only a simpleton would think that this is the reason for terrorism.

If there wasn't oil in the Middle East I expect it would be more like Africa in that no one would give a sh$t about it except for its mining potential

Try social injustice, years of tyrannical empire building, Sykes-Picot, exploitation of resources, theocracy, a clash of civilizations, freedom of knowledge and increasing education standards, over population and scarce resources, radicalization of disenfranchised youths, right wing European politics, racism, the EU, freedom to cross EU borders, the f^&king media, tv, gender politics, religion, oil, illegal invasions, MI6 and the CIA, Western foreign policy, Israel, Saudi, the Arms trade and the need for wars, fat re construction contracts, lack of national identity vs tribal enmity vs versions of Islam, Judaism, nuclear politics, secularism, the dissolution of religion ion Europe, merchant banking, sadism, the Koran, the Bible, greed, Catholicism, patriarchal misogyny, social envy, despotic dictators propped up by the West, Islamists, Hezbollah, Russia, Iran, The domino effect and Communism, The Republican Party, GW Bush Snr and Jnr, famine, poor people trying to live the same lives we all want, capitalism, materialism.

And that's just for starters.

As for pearl harbor the US knew it was coming...ever wonder why the US carrier fleet was out on a jaunt that day?

Your hatred of the USA chucks all rationale out of the window..

The British knew Pearl Harbor was coming and warned us...But as with 9/11 we were too arrogant and dismissive to believe the Japs or Al qaeda would have the audacity. ..

Learn your history..

Learn my history? Care to enlighten me since you obviously know so much. Know about Operation Snow or that through Sorge, Stalin knew the Japs would attack pearl and of course wanted them to as it would bring the US into a war that Stalin knew he'd eventually have to fight with Japan.

I can tell from this lame reply that you don't have any appreciation of history.

And to suggest i "hate" the US based on what i have written just underlines how simplistic you are, its the old pat argument and you sound like bush you're either with us or against us. Not suggesting you are intellectually comparable with him of course, i think he edges you on that.

You comprehend very little of the region or the issues that have lead us to where we are

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.

Do you even have a cogent opinion or are you just trotting out stereotypes?

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Post by Pal Joey on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 7:46 am

This is well worth a read if any of you want to really understand what has happened, what is happening now and what the shocking future of both Europe and the Middle East might look like.

http://oil-price.net/en/articles/oil-prices-and-syrian-civil-war.php
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Post by navyblueshorts on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 8:57 am

Gwlad wrote:Learn my history? Care to enlighten me since you obviously know so much. Know about Operation Snow or that through Sorge, Stalin knew the Japs would attack pearl and of course wanted them to as it would bring the US into a war that Stalin knew he'd eventually have to fight with Japan.

I can tell from this lame reply that you don't have any appreciation of history.

And to suggest i "hate" the US based on what i have written just underlines how simplistic you are, its the old pat argument and you sound like bush you're either with us or against us. Not suggesting you are intellectually comparable with him of course, i think he edges you on that.

You comprehend very little of the region or the issues that have lead us to where we are

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.

Do you even have a cogent opinion or are you just trotting out stereotypes?
If you could try steering away from personal attacks, this thread is likely to stay open longer. Especially ironic as you called someone else out on it earlier.
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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:05 am

Gwlad wrote:

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.


Terrorist.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:26 am

seanmichaels wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.


Terrorist.

laughing

Good way to break the tension! clap thumbsup

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:30 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:
seanmichaels wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.


Terrorist.

laughing

Good way to break the tension! clap thumbsup

Gwlad keep up the good work. It is refresshing to see someone who can see as big a picture as possible not just what our corrupt media spew on a daily basis and don't worry about these guys who take exception they are just cowards through and through.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:38 am

Turkey has shot down a Russia Jet which they say violated it's airspace.

World War 3 Cometh.

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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:45 am

Oh FFS....

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:55 am

Yep..... Sad

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Post by kingraf on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 9:57 am

WTF is this?
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:00 am

Ruskies have been pushing their luck for a long while though, and this was always the risk of unco-ordinated airstrikes being launched.

Hopefully it's sensibly resolved - I think Russia has already offered an 'out' to Turkey by suggesting it was a sufface-to-air missle (i.e. terrorist fire) that brought the plane down.

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Post by ONETWOFOREVER on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:15 am

TopHat24/7 wrote:Ruskies have been pushing their luck for a long while though, and this was always the risk of unco-ordinated airstrikes being launched.

Hopefully it's sensibly resolved - I think Russia has already offered an 'out' to Turkey by suggesting it was a sufface-to-air missle (i.e. terrorist fire) that brought the plane down.

Turkey has been part of the effort to support ISIS, Russia along with Iran supports Assad who Turkey along with Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US, UK, and France want out.

but Hell is big enough for all.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:27 am

Gwlad wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Heaven forbid they take any responsibility for their actions.....

Like I said it's all about idealism.......They want a caliphate....

I mean Americans didn't particularly enjoy having Pearl Harbor destroyed.......But they weren't hunting Japanese people after 1945.....and using Pearl Harbor as an excuse...

In fairness neither are ISIS using Iraq..........Because only an idiot would think this terrorism is about anything other than promoting a perverted form of Islam..

only a simpleton would think that this is the reason for terrorism.

If there wasn't oil in the Middle East I expect it would be more like Africa in that no one would give a sh$t about it except for its mining potential

Try social injustice, years of tyrannical empire building, Sykes-Picot, exploitation of resources, theocracy, a clash of civilizations, freedom of knowledge and increasing education standards, over population and scarce resources, radicalization of disenfranchised youths, right wing European politics, racism, the EU, freedom to cross EU borders, the f^&king media, tv, gender politics, religion, oil, illegal invasions, MI6 and the CIA, Western foreign policy, Israel, Saudi, the Arms trade and the need for wars, fat re construction contracts, lack of national identity vs tribal enmity vs versions of Islam, Judaism, nuclear politics, secularism, the dissolution of religion ion Europe, merchant banking, sadism, the Koran, the Bible, greed, Catholicism, patriarchal misogyny, social envy, despotic dictators propped up by the West, Islamists, Hezbollah, Russia, Iran, The domino effect and Communism, The Republican Party, GW Bush Snr and Jnr, famine, poor people trying to live the same lives we all want, capitalism, materialism.

And that's just for starters.

As for pearl harbor the US knew it was coming...ever wonder why the US carrier fleet was out on a jaunt that day?

Your hatred of the USA chucks all rationale out of the window..

The British knew Pearl Harbor was coming and warned us...But as with 9/11 we were too arrogant and dismissive to believe the Japs or Al qaeda would have the audacity. ..

Learn your history..

Learn my history? Care to enlighten me since you obviously know so much. Know about Operation Snow or that through Sorge, Stalin knew the Japs would attack pearl and of course wanted them to as it would bring the US into a war that Stalin knew he'd eventually have to fight with Japan.

I can tell from this lame reply that you don't have any appreciation of history.

And to suggest i "hate" the US based on what i have written just underlines how simplistic you are, its the old pat argument and you sound like bush you're either with us or against us. Not suggesting you are intellectually comparable with him of course, i think he edges you on that.

You comprehend very little of the region or the issues that have lead us to where we are

Ever been to Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon? I have.

Do you even have a cogent opinion or are you just trotting out stereotypes?

Laugh ......

Not even going to dignify this crap with an answer...

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Post by seanmichaels on Tue 24 Nov 2015, 10:29 am

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Ruskies have been pushing their luck for a long while though, and this was always the risk of unco-ordinated airstrikes being launched.

Hopefully it's sensibly resolved - I think Russia has already offered an 'out' to Turkey by suggesting it was a sufface-to-air missle (i.e. terrorist fire) that brought the plane down.

Turkey has been part of the effort to support ISIS, Russia along with Iran supports Assad who Turkey along with Saudi Arabia, Israel and the US, UK, and France want out.

but Hell is big enough for all.

I'm rolling thunder pouring rain
I'm coming on like a hurricane
My lightning's flashing across the sky
You're only young but you're gonna die
I won't take no prisoners won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get ya satan get ya

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