What can we do about ISIS ???

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Thu 02 Jul 2015, 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Not interested in the historical blame game...........We have a very big problem at the moment as the atrocity over the weekend shows.........

I'm at a loss at what to do about iSIS........

Personally think the horse has bolted....

Tunisia can happen anywhere at anytime...

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Post by Pr4wn on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 3:40 pm

Quite right!

The fact that there's no proof is irrelevant. Lock these scumbags up in the name of "The Land of the Free"!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 4:16 pm

We don't just pick people up and chuck them in jail.....We are America not some little scumbag Country..

Problem is we have bleeding heart types glossing over UK and US citizens getting their heads cut off.....and zooming in on their own side....

I'm a liberal but not when it comes to defence..


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Post by ShahenshahG on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 4:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We don't just pick people up and chuck them in jail.....We are America not some little scumbag Country..

Problem is we have bleeding heart types glossing over UK and US citizens getting their heads cut off.....and zooming in on their own side....

I'm a liberal but not when it comes to defence..

Laugh

You're not a liberal anymore you're turning into those "bitter old men who start wars where young men die". You're just in the middle of it and can't see it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 5:29 pm

If you say so...

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Post by Rowley on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 7:40 pm

Probably should look to take it down a notch or two kids.

This section has been locked/reopened more times than anyone would care to remember. I would guess the patience of the admins is finite.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 7:56 pm

My fault......The scumbag Country comment was out of order....

But I am a hardliner when it comes to terrorists...

The fact I grew up two hours away 9/11 may have something to do with it....

3,000 lives...
Thousands traumatized...
$4.5 billion in damage trade center damage..
83,000 job losses....
$17 billion in lost wages...
$95 billion in losses to New York...
$385 million in loss in commercial airplane costs...

For some reason I haven't got as much time for these terrorists as some seem to on here..

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:00 pm

Rowley wrote:Probably should look to take it down a notch or two kids.

This section has been locked/reopened more times than anyone would care to remember. I would guess the patience of the admins is finite.

Which is a pity because its the debate of our time but the bigotry and hypocrisy expressed by some here is frankly disturbing.

We can't beat these people by becoming them. And perhaps we all ought to look at the reasons we are in this position; decades of meddling in the Middle East to exploit their resources.

Bombing has NEVER worked apart from in 1945 and then it took two attempts.

I am beginning to believe the bombing is PR! It certainly is the least effective way to do what we need, like a surgeon doing heart surgery with a machete.

We need to be so much smarter and so much better than we have been to defeat this ideology, the more we bomb it the more we prove what Isis believe, that we are crusaders bent on the destruction of their religion. The rhetoric is steadily moving that way which is exactly what isis want. Why then shouldn't they fight us? Why shouldn't they bring that fight to our streets? Their perspective is that we are doing the same to them.

I am a liberal, but i have always believed that liberalism requires very, very strong laws and institutions to underpin it. We have to draw a line and invite people to join us on the right side and have very harsh penalties for those that don't. Sadly i think that the greed which is enveloping the world and fosters chaos in the Middle East will undermine even that.

Things do no look good.

For me the law is the answer; get these criminals, from both sides, in front of War Crimes tribunals.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:06 pm

We all know where you're coming from


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:14 pm

Gwlad wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:You can't defeat Daesh

Its an idea

It grew out of the US imprisoning Sunni fundamentalists

FFS we need to realize that the bombing just proves their point. How would you feel being on the receiving end every day, and now the Russians too and i don't think they are quite so discriminating.

We must stop bombing. Find any other way to neutralize their influence, reduce their power. Seize their assets, flood the market with oil and kill the price (never going to happen) Cyberattack them, anything but dropping bombs on towns.
Yup, it's an idea. Agreed. The idea that it's the U.S.' fault though is a bit trite and lazy. These nutters had these ideas way before 9/11. Tend to agree re. bombing, certainly on its own. Hem them in and leave them to it.

Totally agree. This 'blame the Yanks' excuse for a bunch of quasi-retarted evil Muslim f*cktard nutters is as pathetic as it is fallacious as it is apologist.

And everyone knows I'm hardly one to defend the Yanks and protect them from criticism. But this kind of rubbish does nothing to solve the problem and is just more head in the sand b*llocks.

We all now know that the oft quoted suggestion that US foreign policy objectives are the best recruiter for terrorism, is true..

Yep all America's fault....

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My fault......The scumbag Country comment was out of order....

But I am a hardliner when it comes to terrorists...

The fact I grew up two hours away 9/11 may have something to do with it....

3,000 lives...
Thousands traumatized...
$4.5 billion in damage trade center damage..
83,000 job losses....
$17 billion in lost wages...
$95 billion in losses to New York...
$385 million in loss in commercial airplane costs...

For some reason I haven't got as much time for these terrorists as some seem to on here..

I hear you but the US is not the only victim here! You speak as if an attack on the US means the rules have to change well actually the world has been subject to terrorism long before 9/11. And if you really want to use that incident as your motivation i suggest you look long and hard at the intelligence available to the CIA and others pre 9/11. the signs were there but were ignored. In 1941, the White house no less was notified the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor - a Soviet mole orchestrated Hull's foreign policy on Japan - but they ignored the warnings! The US prefers to be on the receiving end so it starts wars with a moral advantage!

The UK was being bombed week in week out by the Provisionals in the 70s and 80s, and other countries are now falling victim to this scourge. Including in the Middle East and Africa.

I do object to the premise that the USA has all the answers on this issue and that the military industrial complex is that answer. Am I soft on terrorism because I dont want to bomb them into next week? Revenge begets revenge, ask the Israelis. De escalation is key and those that refuse to accept that will ruin us. We have to find another way for a long term solution; because cut off the head and another more heinous one appears doesn't work.

There has to be a military input, but lets be smarter and precise. And lets remember that the military are servants of govt (theoretically) and that the long term solution lies in some sort of social justice and legislation, not with guns.

I would like to see leaders brought before tribunals but that of course will give them a platform hence why UBL was dealt with as he was I expect. But we can freeze assets, seize funds and property and choke the life out of this monster in various more clinical ways than just dropping bombs and hoping we hit a few of them. I don't think that civilians being bombed are thinking 'its the good ol' U S of A trying to liberate us'…i expect they think: stop destroying my country and killing innocents to !

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:22 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Gwlad wrote:You can't defeat Daesh

Its an idea

It grew out of the US imprisoning Sunni fundamentalists

FFS we need to realize that the bombing just proves their point. How would you feel being on the receiving end every day, and now the Russians too and i don't think they are quite so discriminating.

We must stop bombing. Find any other way to neutralize their influence, reduce their power. Seize their assets, flood the market with oil and kill the price (never going to happen) Cyberattack them, anything but dropping bombs on towns.
Yup, it's an idea. Agreed. The idea that it's the U.S.' fault though is a bit trite and lazy. These nutters had these ideas way before 9/11. Tend to agree re. bombing, certainly on its own. Hem them in and leave them to it.

Totally agree. This 'blame the Yanks' excuse for a bunch of quasi-retarted evil Muslim f*cktard nutters is as pathetic as it is fallacious as it is apologist.

And everyone knows I'm hardly one to defend the Yanks and protect them from criticism. But this kind of rubbish does nothing to solve the problem and is just more head in the sand b*llocks.

We all now know that the oft quoted suggestion that US foreign policy objectives are the best recruiter for terrorism, is true..

Yep all America's fault....

Oh for goodness sake grow up…its at least partially the US governments fault, along with Sykes picot and every other legislator who has taken a piece of someone else's lands for their own greed!

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:25 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:We all know where you're coming from

is that right. likewise Trussman. Rolling Eyes

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:25 pm

My place is better...

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Post by Rowley on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:27 pm

I often think in the West we tend to fall into a trap that if the solution to a problem is not immediately apparent or may be incredibly difficult we believe by default that a policy that is almost certainly misguided becomes credible just on the grounds we have done it before. This seems to be our policy in the Middle East at the minute, we don't really have a handle on what will work, know something must be done, so let's just do what we have always done over there. This despite the fact there is no tangible evidence that bombing for a few months and then sticking around for a few months to force through some puppet government actually works.

The same has happened with the War on Drugs, for nigh on 40 years the west has ploughed trillions of dollars into targeting the suppliers in their home countries and criminalising the users at home. What has any of this achieved, supply is as rife as ever, use remains remarkably static and prisons are bursting at the seams. Add into that managing to turn Mexico into a virtual Narco State, as Colombia was before it and it is hard to see what the end game is.

What is really worrying is 40 years into the war on drugs there is no inclination to try something different, one wonders how long we are going to pursue endless bombing in the Middle East before we realise the folly of our ways.

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:36 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My place is better...

I am sure you believe that but in doing so reveal that you have no respect for the rights of all humanity.

And actually you are wrong. I hitchhiked through Jordan and Syria aged 22 to see the likes of Palmyra and Petra. I have never met kinder more hospitable people with a love of family and a proper sense of community and respect for family values. People who made a basic living in a harsh environment but would literally kill their only chicken to feed a guest, and they did.

Until the USA stops behaving like the immature and arrogant playground bully, the over eaten schoolboy whose brain has yet to evolve as fast as his mighty body, then we will continue to have to manage the victim like attitude and superiority complex so often evidenced by their policy to smaller countries with oil.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:39 pm

I think we are through Gwlad......

Definitely a naivety in American foreign policy for sure.......

But I think those people and there are many of them....who try to blame foreign policy for the actions of cowardly terrorists are scraping the barrel......

It's incredulous that some think we should have just let 9/11 go !!..

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 8:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think we are through Gwlad......

Definitely a naivety in American foreign policy for sure.......

But I think those people and there are many of them....who try to blame foreign policy for the actions of cowardly terrorists are scraping the barrel......

It's incredulous that some think we should have just let 9/11 go !!..

Yes let t it go or let it consume you. But that is fine…disengage when you hear the truth and call it naivety...no doubt as the great R Reagan said in the 80s 'bombing will start in 5 minutes' Laugh

Do you need my address or will you just go for a carpet bomb effect?

Go do some reading, look up Sykes Picot (that was my lot). Read Weiner's CIA tome and tell me regime change wasn't a sponsored US policy post war for decades. A country that lives on war has to have one every few years.

Isolationism , followed by the fight against nazism, followed by the embellished fear of communism and now the enemy is Islam?!!!!!!

Look at what the west has done in carving up the middle east. Not just the USA though they seem intent and going for gold now.


Open your eyes man!

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Post by Gwlad on Mon 25 Jan 2016, 11:55 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My fault......The scumbag Country comment was out of order....

But I am a hardliner when it comes to terrorists...

The fact I grew up two hours away 9/11 may have something to do with it....

3,000 lives...
Thousands traumatized...
$4.5 billion in damage trade center damage..
83,000 job losses....
$17 billion in lost wages...
$95 billion in losses to New York...
$385 million in loss in commercial airplane costs...

For some reason I haven't got as much time for these terrorists as some seem to on here..

and try this on for size, conservative estimate of Iraqi civilians killed over a 21 month period from Jan 2014 to Oct 2015….

19000!!

Is that enough vengeance blood for you or do you need more?

And you wonder why isis has grown into the power it is now!

If 19000 Americans had died i am pretty sure we'd all know about it because the sad perception around the world is that American lives seem to have greater worth than those of iraqis, Afghans, Syrians etc etc. AND THEY DONT!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 26 Jan 2016, 1:00 pm

Didn't know I was looking for vengeance.......Think you want to calm down...

I was against the Iraq war...How many times must I tell you that !!!

Sad thing is you're very much in line with Corbyn with your World view......

Me.... I've voted Labour in every GE since I was allowed to in 97....Wouldn't have voted for Blair in 2010 and luckily I didn't have to..

But I won't vote Labour now !!!!

Sad thing is there are thousands like me.... and those thousands can't stand what these spoilt, posh boys have done to the UK....with their ignorance.

You're kind of liberalism you can keep....I'll stick with mine...

Mine has a chance of winning elections..

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Post by Gwlad on Wed 27 Jan 2016, 4:59 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Didn't know I was looking for vengeance.......Think you want to calm down...

I was against the Iraq war...How many times must I tell you that !!!

Sad thing is you're very much in line with Corbyn with your World view......

Me.... I've voted Labour in every GE since I was allowed to in 97....Wouldn't have voted for Blair in 2010 and luckily I didn't have to..

But I won't vote Labour now !!!!

Sad thing is there are thousands like me.... and those thousands can't stand what these spoilt, posh boys have done to the UK....with their ignorance.

You're kind of liberalism you can keep....I'll stick with mine...

Mine has a chance of winning elections..

You're either with us or against right? Rolling Eyes

I'd like to see western policy reflect a world view, not take a stance that western lives mean more, ought to be richer, better educated and with greater opportunity because that attitude is why we are where we are, but its clearly an attitude you identify with.

What we need is more cycloptic foreign policy and a few massive arms orders to keep the coffers filled.

And i dont think you'd understand liberalism if it dropped a bomb on you.

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 27 Jan 2016, 8:14 am

Gwlad wrote:

Do you need my address or will you just go for a carpet bomb effect?


I have been an advocate of carpet bombing the entire middle east for a while. Needs a fresh start.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 27 Jan 2016, 9:21 am

Gwlad wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Didn't know I was looking for vengeance.......Think you want to calm down...

I was against the Iraq war...How many times must I tell you that !!!

Sad thing is you're very much in line with Corbyn with your World view......

Me.... I've voted Labour in every GE since I was allowed to in 97....Wouldn't have voted for Blair in 2010 and luckily I didn't have to..

But I won't vote Labour now !!!!

Sad thing is there are thousands like me.... and those thousands can't stand what these spoilt, posh boys have done to the UK....with their ignorance.

You're kind of liberalism you can keep....I'll stick with mine...

Mine has a chance of winning elections..

You're either with us or against right? Rolling Eyes

I'd like to see western policy reflect a world view, not take a stance that western lives mean more, ought to be richer, better educated and with greater opportunity because that attitude is why we are where we are, but its clearly an attitude you identify with.

What we need is more cycloptic foreign policy and a few massive arms orders to keep the coffers filled.

And i dont think you'd understand liberalism if it dropped a bomb on you.

You really are something ...I haven't insulted you yet I know you've reported me to the moderators...Whilst i've been accused of racism..bigotry and heaven knows what else by you.....But freedom of speech and all that...

Run along...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Tue 23 Feb 2016, 8:54 pm

I see one of ISIS great recruiting tools Guantanimo Bay is to be closed under proposals sent to Congress by Obama...(Must not have fancied playing golf that day)......Barack is obviously looking to enhance his lack of legacy..

My guess is that any other time Republicans would chuck the proposals out (Own both houses) but it's an election year and they will have to see how Guantanimo plays......Security vs Rights..

He promised to close it in his first term when he had more clout.....Been a real disappoint this guy. Probably a reason Sanders and Trump have done well..

Sooner he slings it the better....All style and no substance..


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Post by Scottrf on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 10:09 am

Obama has said he'd close Guantanimo multiple times before. He said he'd close it within a year when he first joined office.

Hopefully he does more than all his empty talk about gun control every few weeks after a bunch of innocent people are killed.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 12:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see one of ISIS great recruiting tools Guantanimo Bay is to be closed under proposals sent to Congress by Obama...(Must not have fancied playing golf that day)......Barack is obviously looking to enhance his lack of legacy..

My guess is that any other time Republicans would chuck the proposals out (Own both houses) but it's an election year and they will have to see how Guantanimo plays......Security vs Rights..

He promised to close it in his first term when he had more clout.....Been a real disappoint this guy.  Probably a reason Sanders and Trump have done well..

Sooner he slings it the better....All style and no substance..

So, the idiot GOP majorities in the two Houses have nothing to do with Obama's record then?
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Post by SecretFly on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 1:28 pm

Donald Duck got other plans ready for Guantanimo so he's okay with the idea of it closing. He's planning a theme park golf club there for undocumented Mexican housecleaners, when they've finished building him his wall.

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:33 pm

I wish Gwlad were our PM.

Thats some of the most sensible discourse I've ever read on this subject.

I think you only have to look at the fact we've been attempting to stamp out various terrorist organisations in the Middlle East for the better part of a decade and a half, (most recently) with very little to show for it.

I think its been pretty well proven you can't fight terrorists with conventional military tactics. Or, as Rowley pointed out, drug cartels.

Its unlikely we can bring them to the negotiating table, as we did with the IRA, but I'm certainly not saying we should try to appease them either. They are fanatics and cannot be reasoned with, as they follow a highly twisted version of Islam, which bears little resemblance to the religion followed by most of its adherents.

However, as Gwlad said, we need to approach this is a much smarter way, that isn't just going to prolong the misery and cause unnecessary suffering to innocent people.

I'm no political or military expert, but it has been pointed out terrorists have become very tech-savvy and rely on the internet and mobile communications to plan their attacks. With this in mind I think more resources need to be diverted to disrupting their comms and chains of command, as well as using their electronic activity to track them down, meaning individual cells or commanders can be taken down with relatively small-scale strikes, rather than trying to fight a war on multiple fronts in multiple countries.

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Also think Trussman should change his name to Trumpman...I'm sure Donald would wholeheartedly embrace his way of thinking. devil
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Post by Guest on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 2:43 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:I wish Gwlad were our PM.

Thats some of the most sensible discourse I've ever read on this subject.

I think you only have to look at the fact we've been attempting to stamp out various terrorist organisations in the Middlle East for the better part of a decade and a half, (most recently) with very little to show for it.

I think its been pretty well proven you can't fight terrorists with conventional military tactics. Or, as Rowley pointed out, drug cartels.

Its unlikely we can bring them to the negotiating table, as we did with the IRA, but I'm certainly not saying we should try to appease them either. They are fanatics and cannot be reasoned with, as they follow a highly twisted version of Islam, which bears little resemblance to the religion followed by most of its adherents.

However, as Gwlad said, we need to approach this is a much smarter way, that isn't just going to prolong the misery and cause unnecessary suffering to innocent people.

I'm no political or military expert, but it has been pointed out terrorists have become very tech-savvy and rely on the internet and mobile communications to plan their attacks. With this in mind I think more resources need to be diverted to disrupting their comms and chains of command, as well as using their electronic activity to track them down, meaning individual cells or commanders can be taken down with relatively small-scale strikes, rather than trying to fight a war on multiple fronts in multiple countries.

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Also think Trussman should change his name to Trumpman...I'm sure Donald would wholeheartedly embrace his way of thinking. devil
Using Trumps idea to use "our most brilliant minds" to prevent ISIS from using America's internet (still makes me chuckle) why not get aforementioned brilliant minds to swamp all ISIS communications devices with Louis Van Gaal's press conferences and team talks? This should render them utterly incapable of thought, speech and action...or they''ll be so busy p!ssing themselves laughing they won't want to blow anything up.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:09 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see one of ISIS great recruiting tools Guantanimo Bay is to be closed under proposals sent to Congress by Obama...(Must not have fancied playing golf that day)......Barack is obviously looking to enhance his lack of legacy..

My guess is that any other time Republicans would chuck the proposals out (Own both houses) but it's an election year and they will have to see how Guantanimo plays......Security vs Rights..

He promised to close it in his first term when he had more clout.....Been a real disappoint this guy.  Probably a reason Sanders and Trump have done well..

Sooner he slings it the better....All style and no substance..

So, the idiot GOP majorities in the two Houses have nothing to do with Obama's record then?

He's not always had GOP majorities.....Instead of being argumentative all the time......Do your homework....

We've had this kind of conversation before..

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:37 pm

DAVE667 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I wish Gwlad were our PM.

Thats some of the most sensible discourse I've ever read on this subject.

I think you only have to look at the fact we've been attempting to stamp out various terrorist organisations in the Middlle East for the better part of a decade and a half, (most recently) with very little to show for it.

I think its been pretty well proven you can't fight terrorists with conventional military tactics. Or, as Rowley pointed out, drug cartels.

Its unlikely we can bring them to the negotiating table, as we did with the IRA, but I'm certainly not saying we should try to appease them either. They are fanatics and cannot be reasoned with, as they follow a highly twisted version of Islam, which bears little resemblance to the religion followed by most of its adherents.

However, as Gwlad said, we need to approach this is a much smarter way, that isn't just going to prolong the misery and cause unnecessary suffering to innocent people.

I'm no political or military expert, but it has been pointed out terrorists have become very tech-savvy and rely on the internet and mobile communications to plan their attacks. With this in mind I think more resources need to be diverted to disrupting their comms and chains of command, as well as using their electronic activity to track them down, meaning individual cells or commanders can be taken down with relatively small-scale strikes, rather than trying to fight a war on multiple fronts in multiple countries.

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Also think Trussman should change his name to Trumpman...I'm sure Donald would wholeheartedly embrace his way of thinking. devil
Using Trumps idea to use "our most brilliant minds" to prevent ISIS from using America's internet (still makes me chuckle) why not get aforementioned brilliant minds to swamp all ISIS communications devices with Louis Van Gaal's press conferences and team talks? This should render them utterly incapable of thought, speech and action...or they''ll be so busy p!ssing themselves laughing they won't want to blow anything up.


Oh lordy! I'd not heard that one before! Shocked

How the hell did that man manage to become a billionaire?

Love the LvG idea though. Combine it with some of Mourinho's more bizarre offerings and maybe they'll decide to just blow themselves up.
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Post by Pal Joey on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:39 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Yes, that is the way. It has to be done with a smart and tech savy "hearts and minds" approach. That might take some time but so be it.

You only have to look at all the ugly failures; Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq,... in just about every other post WW2 invasion it follows the same scenario. A much stronger force gets bogged down in a campaign and then suffers considerable losses and casualties over time. It's all because the besieged defender has the psychological advantage of fighting for their homeland and have learnt to improvise and cause maximum trauma with the use of relatively lesser resources (than the West) in a battle of attrition.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:41 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see one of ISIS great recruiting tools Guantanimo Bay is to be closed under proposals sent to Congress by Obama...(Must not have fancied playing golf that day)......Barack is obviously looking to enhance his lack of legacy..

My guess is that any other time Republicans would chuck the proposals out (Own both houses) but it's an election year and they will have to see how Guantanimo plays......Security vs Rights..

He promised to close it in his first term when he had more clout.....Been a real disappoint this guy.  Probably a reason Sanders and Trump have done well..

Sooner he slings it the better....All style and no substance..

So, the idiot GOP majorities in the two Houses have nothing to do with Obama's record then?

He's not always had GOP majorities.....Instead of being argumentative all the time......Do your homework....

We've had this kind of conversation before..
Yep. You're in the wrong camp as usual. I know he's not always had GOP majorities to deal with but he's certainly had trouble with them for more than 50% of his 8-years. Didn't the Democrats lose at least one during the mid-sessionals of his first term? Pretty sure they did and GOP made gains in the other (Senate?). So, in other words, Obama has been stymied for a huge chunk of his 8 years by opponents whose only interest is to stifle anything he proposed.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:44 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I wish Gwlad were our PM.

Thats some of the most sensible discourse I've ever read on this subject.

I think you only have to look at the fact we've been attempting to stamp out various terrorist organisations in the Middlle East for the better part of a decade and a half, (most recently) with very little to show for it.

I think its been pretty well proven you can't fight terrorists with conventional military tactics. Or, as Rowley pointed out, drug cartels.

Its unlikely we can bring them to the negotiating table, as we did with the IRA, but I'm certainly not saying we should try to appease them either. They are fanatics and cannot be reasoned with, as they follow a highly twisted version of Islam, which bears little resemblance to the religion followed by most of its adherents.

However, as Gwlad said, we need to approach this is a much smarter way, that isn't just going to prolong the misery and cause unnecessary suffering to innocent people.

I'm no political or military expert, but it has been pointed out terrorists have become very tech-savvy and rely on the internet and mobile communications to plan their attacks. With this in mind I think more resources need to be diverted to disrupting their comms and chains of command, as well as using their electronic activity to track them down, meaning individual cells or commanders can be taken down with relatively small-scale strikes, rather than trying to fight a war on multiple fronts in multiple countries.

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Also think Trussman should change his name to Trumpman...I'm sure Donald would wholeheartedly embrace his way of thinking. devil
Using Trumps idea to use "our most brilliant minds" to prevent ISIS from using America's internet (still makes me chuckle) why not get aforementioned brilliant minds to swamp all ISIS communications devices with Louis Van Gaal's press conferences and team talks? This should render them utterly incapable of thought, speech and action...or they''ll be so busy p!ssing themselves laughing they won't want to blow anything up.


Oh lordy! I'd not heard that one before! Shocked

How the hell did that man manage to become a billionaire?

Love the LvG idea though. Combine it with some of Mourinho's more bizarre offerings and maybe they'll decide to just blow themselves up.

Easy - spend all daddy's money. Then whenever you f*ck up or things go wrong just declare bankruptcy to screw all your creditors and walk away scott free, then go back to daddy's country club for more money to spend.

And idiot could get rich with the opportunties he's had open to him. Never had an innovative thought in his life.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:49 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:
DAVE667 wrote:
dyrewolfe wrote:I wish Gwlad were our PM.

Thats some of the most sensible discourse I've ever read on this subject.

I think you only have to look at the fact we've been attempting to stamp out various terrorist organisations in the Middlle East for the better part of a decade and a half, (most recently) with very little to show for it.

I think its been pretty well proven you can't fight terrorists with conventional military tactics. Or, as Rowley pointed out, drug cartels.

Its unlikely we can bring them to the negotiating table, as we did with the IRA, but I'm certainly not saying we should try to appease them either. They are fanatics and cannot be reasoned with, as they follow a highly twisted version of Islam, which bears little resemblance to the religion followed by most of its adherents.

However, as Gwlad said, we need to approach this is a much smarter way, that isn't just going to prolong the misery and cause unnecessary suffering to innocent people.

I'm no political or military expert, but it has been pointed out terrorists have become very tech-savvy and rely on the internet and mobile communications to plan their attacks. With this in mind I think more resources need to be diverted to disrupting their comms and chains of command, as well as using their electronic activity to track them down, meaning individual cells or commanders can be taken down with relatively small-scale strikes, rather than trying to fight a war on multiple fronts in multiple countries.

Gwlad makes another good point in that the West has been meddling with ME affairs since the end of WW2. We need to recognise and accept responsibility for, the amount of damage we have done...publicly apologise if need be and do our utmost to mend fences and establish good relations with the legitimate and (relatively) moderate regimes.

If this is ever going to end, we need more "Hearts and Minds" rather than "Shock and Awe", to prevent more people being brainwashed into joining the terrorists. The more the peoples of the ME believe the West are genuine friends and partners, the more co-operation we'll likely get from them in hunting down the nutters.

Also think Trussman should change his name to Trumpman...I'm sure Donald would wholeheartedly embrace his way of thinking. devil
Using Trumps idea to use "our most brilliant minds" to prevent ISIS from using America's internet (still makes me chuckle) why not get aforementioned brilliant minds to swamp all ISIS communications devices with Louis Van Gaal's press conferences and team talks? This should render them utterly incapable of thought, speech and action...or they''ll be so busy p!ssing themselves laughing they won't want to blow anything up.


Oh lordy! I'd not heard that one before! Shocked

How the hell did that man manage to become a billionaire?

Love the LvG idea though. Combine it with some of Mourinho's more bizarre offerings and maybe they'll decide to just blow themselves up.

Easy - spend all daddy's money. Then whenever you f*ck up or things go wrong just declare bankruptcy to screw all your creditors and walk away scott free, then go back to daddy's country club for more money to spend.

And idiot could get rich with the opportunties he's had open to him.  Never had an innovative thought in his life.

You advised Hatton to do the same once upon a time Laugh Is this where you divide your business and personal wealth to insulate you from bankruptcy? Just out of curiousity - how could he convince anybody that he was truly bankrupt when he's a billionaire?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:51 pm

Trump graduated from the Wharton school of finance...One of the most famous schools in America and turned his fortune into billions..

I know posters on here have an irrational hatred of Americans and feel the need to troll...

But it does get tiresome...

Trump is a very educated, intelligent and succesful man.....Regardless of how he started....

Worth $4 billion..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:54 pm

Frank has done it plenty of times, Shah, think I just suggested Hatton do the same.

Not saying it's bad advice either! But let's face it, Ricky has nobody else to fall back on, whereas Trump has had a safety net to make Tamara Eccelstone blush.

HE doesn't need to be bankrupt. He will never put his name (i.e. personal guarantee) against anything. It will just be corporate vehicles that can be collapsed at will - via Chapter 11 bankruptcy, which is a US version of our administration.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:56 pm

If Trump was British he'd vote Tory and be the greatest thing since sliced bread..

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:56 pm

Legal affairs
Corporate bankruptcies

Four of Trump's businesses have declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy.[347][348] According to a report by Forbes in 2011, these were the result of over-leveraged hotel and casino businesses in Atlantic City: Trump's Taj Mahal (1991), Trump Plaza Hotel (1992), Trump Hotels and Casino Resorts (2004), and Trump Entertainment Resorts (2009).[349][350] Trump said "I've used the laws of this country to pare debt. … We'll have the company. We'll throw it into a chapter. We'll negotiate with the banks. We'll make a fantastic deal. You know, it's like on The Apprentice. It's not personal. It's just business."[351] He indicated that other "great entrepreneurs" do the same.[349]

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 4:58 pm

He also sues the pants of anyone that disagrees with him or gets in his way (even impoverished local school districts). So basically he's a massive cnut, but to some that fact he's made a few $bn is all that matters, no matter how he's done it or who he's hurt on the way up (and back down and back up and back down and back up again).

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:01 pm

Fancy Trump using the system....Not like rich businessmen to do that...


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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:03 pm

Aye but you're saying its because he's clever - it's not (unless Frank Warren is a genius) - it's just that he's started from a very high point and funding not available to anyone else.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:09 pm

I've no doubt Trump has substantial business acumen.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:16 pm

Neither do I, but 4 billion is only amazing if he started from a low point and not from 3 billion for example

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:20 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Trump graduated from the Wharton school of finance...One of the most famous schools in America and turned his fortune into billions..

I know posters on here have an irrational hatred of Americans and feel the need to troll...

But it does get tiresome...

Trump is a very educated, intelligent and succesful man.....Regardless of how he started....

Worth $4 billion..


Well given the idiotic statements regularly issued by Trump (and many other Americans) its kinda hard NOT to troll sometimes. You do really bring it on yourselves. For what its worth, its more for amusement, than out of "irrational hatred". Wink

And if he really did get rich by "playing the system" to bail out his failures, rather than genuinely good business practice, I hardly think he warrants any admiration...regardless of where he graduated from.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:21 pm

I'd say Alan Sugar has been much more impressive.

Started from nothing and, to the best of my knowledge, never abused bankruptcy laws to further himself.

Though he did 'ruin football'.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:24 pm

$200 million net in 1982 ......................Worth $4 billion now..

$200 million is $370 million today.....Using a finance calculator.....

You wouldn't get 4 billion leaving it in a bank..

As I said if Trump was British he'd vote Tory and be a great guy... Cool  thumbsup

Some posters are just bitter..


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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:25 pm

How much would he have got if he'd left it in bonds?

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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:27 pm

And there's a man who had his share of flops with Amstrad.

Still, he now has a lucrative TV career to bolster his business earnings.
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Post by dyrewolfe on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:$200 million net in 1982 ......................Worth $4 billion now..

$200 million is $370 million today.....Using a finance calculator.....

You wouldn't get 4 billion leaving it in a bank..

As I said if Trump was British he'd vote Tory and be a great guy... Cool  thumbsup

Some posters are just bitter..


Actually Truss, I get the feeling if Mr Trump were British he would be throwing his vast fortune at Nigel Farage and UKIP. Wink
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 24 Feb 2016, 5:30 pm

dyrewolfe wrote:And there's a man who had his share of flops with Amstrad.

Still, he now has a lucrative TV career to bolster his business earnings.

Don't forget he threatened to sue Quentin Letts the Mail journalist..

I thought only naughty "Americans" like Trump did that !!! laughing

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