England vs Pakistan 4th Test, The Oval 11th-15th August

The final Test of the summer will take place with England looking dominant after back to back wins, but Pakistan still with a chance of a series draw, which would be a great result for them

England are expected to be unchanged despite there yet again be talk of Rashid playing (he must have the highest number of non-caps in cricket history )

Pakistan might look to drop Hafeez and potentially take the risk of playing 5 bowlers

Think Pakistan have to play 5 bowlers, the problem then becomes how to re-jig the batting order.

Azhar's going nicely at three so I'd be reluctant to change that. Does anyone know the Pakistan squad well enough to know what the possible options would be?

That's a good question - it is very hard to find any media coverage from a Pakistan angle, I am guessing because of their recent history when touring England

I think they have two players in the squad that haven't played yet: the promisingly named Imran Khan and Iftikhar Ahmed, the latter being a batsman who bowls some decent spin I believe

What happened with Hafeez getting his action re tested? Thought that was meant to happen after the second test (so he'd be the 5th bowler)

For me Vince would bee dropped for Rashid - but I expect they'll go with an unchanged XI

Olly - as ever hard to get information, but I think we can conclude that he didn't get the remedial work done in time so the tests never went ahead. Or to put it another way, he's still chucking them down in the nets!

The latest I heard re Hafeez is that they were hoping to get his action tested in time for him to bowl in the ODIs, I think Athers or Nass mentioned it in the last Test.

England will be unchanged. Talk of Rashid, but possibly more due to looking ahead to India IMO*. Vince showed a few signs of improvement in the last game, but needs a score. I think it's right that he's given the whole summer to make his case, and for me he has the ability, so hopefully he can produce. Finn's form has steadily improved throughout the two Tests he's played in this series, and he picked up the two big wickets in the last game, so he stays.

*As an aside, I agree with Olly that England's six bowler attack worked well in Pakistan, albeit it required shoehorning Moeen into the opening slot, which really didn't work. Going a similar route this time would possibly require Bairstow to move up to five (Stokes 6, Moeen 7, Rashid 8, Woakes 9, etc.) with one of Ballance and Vince to miss out. With Woakes at 9, Broad at 10 (rather than Broad and Wood as in SA) I think that works.

Pakistan have problems. England have played Yasir much better on pitches not doing much for him, and with only four bowlers they were visibly wilting in the previous game. Amir has been excellent throughout (and deserves better figures), the other seamers a bit uneven. Both Rahat and Sohail have bowled some great spells, but inconsistently so; in Sohail's case a fitness issue, with Rahat more his action. Hafeez hasn't fired, but I think having just apparently fixed one opener spot they'll be reluctant to change the other one, especially if it means moving Azhar up to open right when he's also found some form.

If they want to go to five bowlers, the logical choice would be to drop Younus Khan. Legendary as his career has been, and hard though he's scrapped in this series, he just hasn't been at the races. Shafiq has really struggled after a great start, with England finding a weakness to the ball nipping back into him, while Sarfraz has mostly flattered to deceive. I personally think Pakistan need to pick the extra bowler, especially with the quick turnaround.

Dropping Younis is an interesting suggestion, and one that would not damage Pakistan's batting really. Great career as you say but it looks to be over

Yasir Shah the Test number 7 is the most worrying prospect since Andy Caddick the Test number 8. But I am struggling to see a different option if they want another fast bowler in there

TBH I don't see Pakistan picking five out and out bowlers, Yasir at 7 strikes me as suicidal. Yes Pakistan's lower order have provided some unexpected resistance at times in the last couple of Tests, but I think there's an element of England relaxing a bit there. Noticeable that in the first Test and first innings of the third, when England needed to wrap the tail up quickly, they did so with minimal fuss.

I was more advocating Pakistan bringing in Iftikhar Ahmed, who bowls some decent off-spin, as their fifth man.

Ah the days of Caddick at 8, followed by that wonderful trio of Mullally, Tuffnell and Giddins

That last four was a true nightmare ! Remember it all too well...

Honestly can't see Pakistan lengthening that tail any more , never mind they do need another bowling option. Admit to knowing little of Ahmed but if he can bowl off spin better than Azhar can bowl non-spin - and can bat properly - then surely he's the natural pick. For Younus ? Or for Hafeez , maybe...Can Ahmed open ?
(Even if Hafeez were able to bowl , his batting is a liability right now.)

England presumably go with the same XI. (Rashid talk sounds like the usual two spinners smokescreen that Australian coaches always trot out Generally to con their hapless opponents into going spin heavy while they pick a full set of fast bowlers and a pitch to suit )

Finn did seem to get it just about right this weekend : wish I could be sure he will be right again on Thursday ! But he stays.
As does Vince. Who clearly has talent ; but seems a slow learner. I'd have sent him back to think about it and maybe return a better player , myself. But I get they want to give him a good chance - and the fact that the team is winning saves him for now. The problem will be : if he fails here , do they take him to India ? And if not , who replaces him ?
Of course , the balance of the squad in India will be different. That six bowler team may happen... But they'll need options. Let's hope Vince fires at The Oval...

Hi MfC and all - apologies that much of this goes beyond the next Test but it follows from parts of some of the posts above.

It does seem to be a decision already made (for India although not the Oval) that Moeen and Rashid will be playing alongside each other. I'm not convinced by that. Whilst they are different bowling types, what they are likely to produce is too similar - ie a few for plenty. Even with six bowlers, I wonder if we would be better off with a slow man who is more likely to control the run rate.

I posted in the past that I considered Panesar a good foil for Swann but not his replacement. Someone I sometimes disagreed with here was kind enough to comment warmly on that at the time. As for Moeen and Rashid, I'm inclined to think the opposite. I can see Rashid standing in for / replacing Moeen but I don't see them (regularly) working well in tandem. Too much of a risk for me of too many runs being conceded too quickly and the game being taken away from us.

As always, easier to talk about problems than solutions. If not Rashid - and, yes, we will need two spinners playing in India -, then who? At risk of stating the bl**ding obvious, there isn't much choice. The best spinner in the county game is Jeetan Patel who - as Gooseberry might say in his usual style - is inconveniently a Kiwi. Some who are England qualified appear to have fallen away - Riley at Kent (I said Tredwell would be back ) and Kerrigan at Lancs whilst Briggs, now at Sussex, seems increasingly a white ball bowler. I hear good things about young leggie Crane at Hants but I strongly suspect India now would be a massive step for him.

Realistically that probably just leaves two old hands in the aforementioned Tredwell and Batty plus the up and coming Ansari. My feeling is that, despite regaining his county place, Tredwell hasn't quite done enough this season. Ansari would give a good mix of slowies to the squad with Moeen and Rashid (despite any reservations, I accept he is certain to travel) - left arm, off break and leg spin; that almost certainly makes him favourite to tour. However, I would still give serious consideration to Batty. He's bowling better than at any time in his Oval career and would imo be the one best at keeping it dry. Whilst it would it be very short term in terms of Moeen and Batty playing together, I also believe that Batty could usefully mentor Moeen just as he has done for Ansari at Surrey.

Going back to this 4th Test, the Oval is more helpful to spinners than most Test grounds in England. However, I wouldn't overstate that or feel that head groundsman Lee Fortis and his crew have been so naive as to produce a delight for Shah.

Good post guildford (and others) - I am with you on the spin options, which is why I suggested a 3 man spin attack on the other thread - or more realistically you could call it Moeen the batting all-rounder,Rashid, plus a spinner who will hopefully not go for 4-6 runs per over

Batty is not the worst shout ever - I am sure you remember Shaun Udal bowling England to a famous victory in a Test in India not too long ago. He played the series after that then never again. It was short-term but he did a decent job, nothing wrong with that

EDIT: and for this Test I really want to see Yasir Shah the Test number 7, for the comedy factor of course. I am trusting the Pakistan selectors are big fans of this site and will make it happen

I have vague recollections of a horrible Pakistan team with Moin Khan batting at 5 as a specialist batsman in a Test match - does that ring any bells with anyone?

Nothing wrong with short term fixes when touring India...

Never mind Udal : in 1984/5 the thirty eight year old "Percy" Pocock was recalled to the colours for David Gower's touring team , after an eight year absence from the squad.
They won the series .

Interesting points , guildford , re spinners who can play together ... or replace each other : but not really the converse.
Certainly the risk of "no control " is a concern , with a Moeen/Rashid pairing. I'm a bit doubtful about the alternatives though - obviously I'm not watching Batty each week so I can't judge ; but would he really trouble India's batsmen? Think I'd be more inclined to look at Ansari , for variety and batting ability. And probably look to the seam bowlers to supply the brakes when needed...

VTR wrote:Good post guildford (and others) - I am with you on the spin options, which is why I suggested a 3 man spin attack on the other thread - or more realistically you could call it Moeen the batting all-rounder,Rashid, plus a spinner who will hopefully not go for 4-6 runs per over

Batty is not the worst shout ever - I am sure you remember Shaun Udal bowling England to a famous victory in a Test in India not too long ago. He played the series after that then never again. It was short-term but he did a decent job, nothing wrong with that

EDIT: and for this Test I really want to see Yasir Shah the Test number 7, for the comedy factor of course. I am trusting the Pakistan selectors are big fans of this site and will make it happen

I have vague recollections of a horrible Pakistan team with Moin Khan batting at 5 as a specialist batsman in a Test match - does that ring any bells with anyone?

I agree with the idea that a short term solution is viable for something like an India tour, where the requirements are specific and only possibly transfer to a tour of Sri Lanka. It's likely that the starting 11 will only have one specialist pace bowler (Broad - I'd give Anderson a rest), with Woakes and Stokes (fitness permitting) providing the additional pace / seam options. I can then see room for 3 spin bowlers, especially given that Moeen is a better batsman than bowler and Rashid is no mug with the bat, so we can simply pick a spinner to be the main controlling bowler. Could be Batty or Tredwell - I'd love to be able to suggest Panesar, but he's hardly played all summer...

You'd have to tie Anderson down to get him to rest ! Think it would be crazy to leave him out - especially as he actually has a good record in India. And is well respected - if not exactly loved - by India's batsmen.
Three seamers - or four. At least with all the all rounders they have options that won't greatly weaken the batting.

alfie wrote:Nothing wrong with short term fixes when touring India...

Never mind Udal : in 1984/5 the thirty eight year old "Percy" Pocock was recalled to the colours for David Gower's touring team , after an eight year absence from the squad.  
They won the series .

Interesting points , guildford , re spinners who can play together  ... or replace each other : but not really the converse.
Certainly the risk of "no control " is a concern , with a Moeen/Rashid pairing. I'm a bit doubtful about the alternatives though - obviously I'm not watching Batty each week so I can't judge ; but would he really trouble India's batsmen? Think I'd be more inclined to look at Ansari , for variety and batting ability.  And probably look to the seam bowlers to supply the brakes when needed...

Cheers, Alfie.

I certainly hadn't forgotten Percy Pococock. He's currently Club President at the Oval and often seen prancing around there.  I'm glad it was you - and not me! - who first mentioned another Surrey spinner, albeit one from yesteryear. Thought I would get some flak for narrowing things down to one of two Surrey slow men for the third spinner's place. The fact I haven't probably shows the lack of options -or that Gooseberry isn't online!

As I'm sure you appreciate, my earlier post came with no guarantees. All I would say is that Batty is more likely to trouble India's batsmen now than he was Brian Lara when entrusted to play Test cricket in the West Indies a dozen years ago.

Shah at 7 for pakistan with Rashid at 9 and broad 10 for england would have been ultimate lols.

Agree with the points about spinners. The positive of having 3 all rounder types rather than a specialist who bats at 12 is that it does enable england to select any configuration they please and give the captain all the options he could dream of should india win the toss on a flatter than normal pitch in 50 degree heat. England could send a squad that allows them a 7 man attack plus some part time options and still bats pretty well.

Vince theres an article on cricinfo jokingly comparing him to ramprakash. Bell perhaps another ( although he started his career by destroying the mighty bangladesh) ...we know hes better than his test record to date. Or at least he looks better.

As for this game..well the series has panned out largely as predicted. Pakistans 4 man attack was always going to be problematic as the series progressed especially as england have learnt to cope with shah. The extent of the turnround is pretty extreme but Pakistan were never going to be able to rely solely on him. England have done well to take opportunities to grind pakistan and overload their bowlers.
England should go into this as the firm favourites, if ever theybwere going to win a test it should be this one..just as the first test was always pakistans best chance.
The Rashid thing is becoming a recurring joke now. I wonder if they tell him upfront or if hes genuinely dissapointed every time hes tipped publically then not selected.

Pakistans selections...the Younis things an interesting shout but a huge call to make. He was given the kiss of death by being publically backed by the captain.
Again it all makes you relaise how blessed england are by their all rounders even without Stokes .

Threats to England?
Shah turns up again, Pakistan win a good toss, Anderson breaks down, Finn doesnt turn up.


Background to all this...as things stand 4 teams are contesting the number 1 test team slot dependant on results. Mist likely India will win in the windies and take it but if not Pakistan and England both could with a win. And everyone wants to be the team to take it off Australia.

Its just as well geoff boycotys mum isnt a surrey lass Guilford or youd have her opening the batting

Gooseberry wrote:Its just as well geoff boycotys mum isnt a surrey lass Guilford or youd have her opening the batting

If there was absolutely no one else from any county, I would have her opening the batting. Fortunately, there is.

Unfortunately, there aren't so many options when it comes to spinners. Perhaps Geoffrey has an aunt who bowls chinamen? Although preferable, it's not even essential that she comes from Surrey!

Theres always Samit Patel.

Victory in this Test will put England as officially the best in the world - little surprise, seeing as how it would also mean they will hold every test trophy.

To stay at number 1, England will also require the Windies to win/draw one of the last two tests against India.

Should be a simple task of beating Pakistan, who will have nothing left after their earlier capitulation.

Duty281 wrote:Victory in this Test will put England as officially the best in the world - little surprise, seeing as how it would also mean they will hold every test trophy.

To stay at number 1, England will also require the Windies to win/draw one of the last two tests against India.

Should be a simple task of beating Pakistan, who will have nothing left after their earlier capitulation.

Either way, I imagine the series this winter will be a shoot-out to decide who starts 2017 as number 1.

I do wish Duty would stop tempting fate by putting up these "It's in the Bag" posts ...

Look at all the trouble that caused last week ! And only saved by the likes of Trebell and VTR working overtime posting counter-curse reverse jinxes (well done chaps )

Have some consideration for hard working wizards , man

In all seriousness I do expect England to prevail ; but I am not assuming it will be easy . Pretty sure they won't either after the scare they got at Edgbaston.
Expecting the intensity to be on from the start.

There is actually a lot to like about this Pakistan team , and I think they will have a real go at fighting back - if Misbah can win the toss it will be important for England to get their lines and lengths right from the off...will also help if they have worked out a way to bowl to young Sami now that he's replaced Jimmy's favourite bunny at the top of the order...

How does the weather look ?

Hi Alfie - you would be better off hearing from the Corporal who is the weather expert for all Surrey matches but my understanding is that it's not expected to be a problem for this Test. Some cloud around today but a belter tomorrow.

England win the toss and bat first

Pakistan have brought in Ifkithar for the woeful Hafeez and shuffled the order - Azhar Ali will open, Shafiq at 3, Ifkithar at 6

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:England win the toss and bat first

Pakistan have brought in Ifkithar for the woeful Hafeez and shuffled the order - Azhar Ali will open, Shafiq at 3, Ifkithar at 6

Oh and Wahab is in for Rahat

Bit surprised at Wahab for Rahat as I thought he bowled some decent spells at Edgbaston , and Wahab has been a bit disappointing .
The batting change was obvious - this new fellow can bowl , apparently ; and he can't make any less runs
But they've really rejigged the batting order ...and they can't do much about that tail.

Ball moving a bit this morning , but the bowlers are spraying it everywhere so far.

But what's this - catch at mid wicket ? Doesn't seem to have carried ...surely not going to be given ?

Given out ! Hales not impressed ...

TV replays were next to useless...Oxenford must have been pretty sure it was a clean catch ; though it looked a bit dodgy to me.

Shouldn't have hit it in the air at all I guess...

Whatever : against the run of play , as it were. Pakistan will be pleased to have a break.
And Hales still isn't exactly forging a record of reliability.

Its a shame for Hales - he played a good innings just a few days away. Catch or no catch, to clip it anywhere near the square leg fielder in the air, that's not really good batting

I thought it was out tbf

The voice of Joel Wilson practically begging for another camera angle was quite sad

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I thought it was out tbf

The voice of Joel Wilson practically begging for another camera angle was quite sad

Agree on both comments.

As you might expect, my ears pricked up when, just after the toss, I heard Cook say that he had spoken to Alec Stewart who made it ''pretty clear'' that batting first was the way to go. No surprise there.

Cook genuinely fascinates me sometimes

Well well ...England seem to be back to the first innings Edgbaston template...

Three loose shots - three top players gone and up to Vince and Ballance to arrest the slide.

Not exactly learning from mistakes , are they ?

Poor start from England, the traditional 3 down before lunch, with time to become more

Are they really up for this one or getting complacent again?

Uncharacteristic poor shot from Cookie...just proves he is merely mortal I suppose. Leaves England in a bit of a dodgy position with Root and Vince now at the crease.

Could definitely do with a big partnership now.


EDIT:

Jesus - no sooner do I post this than Root is back in the pavilion. What the hell...?

England in some serious bother now. Can Vince and Ballance hang around and trouble the scorers for a while?

Really hoping we don't need another Bairstow & Moeen show to save us just yet.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Cook genuinely fascinates me sometimes

Care to elaborate ?

alfie wrote:Well well ...England seem to be back to the first innings Edgbaston template...

Three loose shots - three top players gone and up to Vince and Ballance to arrest the slide.

Not exactly learning from mistakes , are they ?

Exactly.

Not down to the pitch. Cook made the right decision on winning the toss in the eyes of most Ovalgoers. Just poor batting.

VTR wrote:Poor start from England, the traditional 3 down before lunch, with time to become more

Are they really up for this one or getting complacent again?

Surely they aren't getting complacent again already ? Unless they've been reading Duty's posts...

I know they bat deep ; but really think they would do better to be a bit more careful in the first session. Can't expect Bairstow or Ali or Woakes to rescue them every time.

At the risk of being considered over cautious : this situation is why I would still prefer Root at four rather than three.

And now Vince falls to a beauty from Wahab ! 74/4 and this could turn into a total disaster...

alfie wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Cook genuinely fascinates me sometimes

Care to elaborate ?

I will when I have time after work!

Hey look James Vince has nicked one behind - oh and the sky is also blue!

This is really bad, can we go back in time, lose the toss and have a bowl?

I think we have to hope Jimmy Anderson was speaking the truth:

England bowler James Anderson says the impressive third Test victory over Pakistan at Edgbaston shows the team can win from "any position".

After England were bowled out for 297, Pakistan replied with 400 but the hosts won by 141 runs to take a 2-1 lead into Thursday's final Test at The Oval.

"It does a huge amount for the team, knowing you can be 100 runs behind and come back," Anderson said.

"It shows what sort of character we've got in the team as well."

Anderson returned to the top of the Test bowling rankings after a match haul of 4-85 in Birmingham and he believes his individual confidence is shared across the team.

"Going into this game we know now we can win from pretty much any position," added the Lancashire bowler.

Excellent decision to recall Wahab as he gets his second and the 4th wicket goes down.

Thought it was the right call to leave him out last time as he looked rather flat before that. However, with a rest behind him and a fifth bowler here (think that's right), he should now be able to bowl short spells in which he can give it everything. That's where he's at his best.

I would be looking to give him just 16 overs in the day - 4 spells of 4. We may not even last that long at this rate!

Hi guildford

Yeah I guess batting first is a reasonable choice. There is a bit there for the bowlers , mind : but I'd have thought they considered that and planned to make sure they got to lunch without too much risk , intending to gear up later as things settled down.

But then they play like this...

alfie wrote:Hi guildford

Yeah I guess batting first is a reasonable choice.  There is a bit there for the bowlers , mind : but I'd have thought they considered that and planned to make sure they got to lunch without too much risk , intending to gear up later as things settled down.

But then they play like this...

This really is rubbish. Just no need to try and smack the cover off everything. Its pretty obvious that Pakistan still have a bowling attack that will tire, so put the hard work in and cash in later. Instead we tried to stamp our authority as the number one Test team by racing to 120-1 at lunch. The best team in the world does not follow up good performances with such complacent rubbish two first innings in a row, nor does it gift a wicket from nothing that becomes three or four time and time again

Rant over

Boycott saying this is a 600 pitch !

If that's right it is just about game over already

Really does look as if they have fallen into an overconfident frame of mind again. Makes me a little concerned as to what Bayliss is actually telling them ( not that he should need to) : are they still going with the McCullum NZ style - fix bayonets , charge plan ?

Probably not a 600 pitch with these two lineups - but surely not even a 2 down at lunch pitch

This just happens too often and is the main thing Bayliss has to sort out. Even against the literally awful Sri Lankans we would be 3 or 4 down for not very many. I suspect better players than the likes of Vince are needed

alfie wrote:Boycott saying this is a 600 pitch !

If that's right it is just about game over already

Really does look as if they have fallen into an overconfident frame of mind again.  Makes me a little concerned as to what Bayliss is actually telling them ( not that he should need to) : are they still going with the McCullum NZ style  - fix bayonets , charge plan ?

Let's give Pakistan some credit too - the other team is allowed to play well...and they've bowled some magnificent stuff Wahab in particular

VTR - understand where your rant is coming from. Do feel a bit sorry for Vince though - more than any England player, he needs a score in this match and he was the one who got the ball that totally deserved a wicket.

guildfordbat wrote:VTR - understand where your rant is coming from.  Do feel a bit sorry for Vince though - more than any England player, he needs a score in this match and he was the one who got the ball that totally deserved a wicket.

That's true, but I find when a player isn't really up to it they will attract that good ball. Perhaps because they are not good enough they make the dismissal look better than it is, also perhaps the bowlers put just that bit extra in as they know a wicket is there for the taking. Also you can guarantee they will be somewhere in the middle of any collapse going

I don't think Vince is a lost cause, there is talent there. He's had a taste so he needs to go and work on his game if he really wants it. He couldn't have a better example than that in the same dressing room as Jonny Bairstow

Wahab is a total mavreck. A 4-man attack is not ideal for him as he's most effective bowling short spells as Guildford wrote earlier. Now that they have seemingly picked a parttime spinner, he's rightfully back and showed what he can do. Lets see whether England's batting depth will yet again save them. Pakistan would be hoping Yasir would be somewhere close to his best here. Its a day one track, he wouldn't get much help from the pitch. but he has to find other ways to get at the batsmen.