Moeen Ali : Seems he is the last spinner in English camp??

English team mostly depends on its seamers for hunting 20 wickets, but the likes of Swann and Giles and also some one great like Jim Laker once filled one place in the dressing room.

Moeen now though filling the boots, but on debut I don't think he was taken as a prime spinner, being given just 28 overs in the first test and that too against SL. I think series against India not only boosted his confidence but also allowed selectors to close their eyes to other spin talent.

But still leaving India his bowling ties are not too impressive to take him as a front-line spinner as British selectors are thinking. Its no doubt he has batted in some critical situation for England but in my view thinking of him as a front-line spinner may put a line in the selection.

Still good luck to him for more better performance later in the series.

Its worth remembering that noone thought much of swann as a spinner and he was derided for being selected because he could at a bit. It took several years for people to decide he was a good spinner, and for some only on the basis that all the genuinely good ones except murali had retired.
Ali has the potential to improve, if he keeps doing that he will retain his place with Rashid as backup/second spinner so log as England want 5 bowlers. Lets not forget he got his place to allow the luxury player in Stokes.

Well he can't have done much more than in the First Test. 5 wickets, almost 100 runs with the bat, with contributions at vital times. We have to remember he is an all-rounder rather than a front-line spinner, you can't really argue with those returns to be honest

VTR wrote:Well he can't have done much more than in the First Test. 5 wickets, almost 100 runs with the bat, with contributions at vital times. We have to remember he is an all-rounder rather than a front-line spinner, you can't really argue with those returns to be honest

But I think that was the point of the OP ...can/should a team like ENgland rely on an all rounder as a spinner or should they pick their spinnner on the grounds they are the best spinner?

Its somehwat different with seamers where having 4 allows them to hedge their best in that regard... some get in for their bowling and stokes for his batting.
But if they are only playing one spinner should their batting even be a consideration? It was for Ali certainly. What it does do is allow englanmd to play the agressive game with bat and have 5 decent bowling options.

The only other spinner battering down the door is Rashid, and to be fair a lot of us exected him to be sleected and I dont think many wouldve seen it as a bad call had he been. But then rashid is essentially in the same bracket as Ali ( and borthwick before him) as an all rounder.

Anyway going round in circles on this Ali is the match of most test spinners operating at the moment, espeiclaly in the light of the ICC crackdown on illegal actions. SA are number one with Dean Elgar who averages less with the bat and more with the ball. India have gone back to picking Harbajahn.
Good enough, and importnatly hes coachable. He has the potential to be more than adequate. Wth Root offering backup I dont have any great issues with Englands bowling, although at some point they may get caught out by not having anyone who can bowl nagging consistent control. Thats not allowed under the new England exceitement model anyway though.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned his runs to make my point a bit clearer: he took a quarter of the wickets on a pitch where the quicks were doing very well and sharing wickets around. I doubt there is any spinner in England who would have done better. Then I also doubt there are any spinners who could also make such a stylish and vital first innings contribution with the bat.

I get the sense people want him to fail so Rashid can come in, I blame Mr Warne for making people think legspinners are going to scythe through the opposition

To be fair, outside of a pace battery of 90mph plus bowlers, nothing quite screams attacking like a leg spinner.

As for Ali, he's done well. But he can be expensive. He's picked the Aussies off because they have proven repeatedly (UAE and in India) that they really don't know how to keep their heads when going after a spinner. Will be interesting to see him past this Ashes, in UAE, and South Africa. UAE will offer great insights into his ability to contain, and then take wickets. SA an insight into his ability to build pressure against a country which won't take the Aussie route, but has enough good players of spin to really hurt him. If he can't contain in those series, England lose both. Badly.

How often has Rashid bowled in powerplays? That has to be the litmus test for a white ball spinner to make the transition. It is one thing taking wickets with attacking batsmen and defensive fields and a totally different one where a test batsman milks a four ball per over through wide open spaces.

Rashid should have got a Test in the West Indies where the conditions were perfect for him, but it's hard to see how he's going to come into this series - at least until England have already won it!

Even in April I would have picked Rashid in the tests that Moeen played in the West Indies; Moeen shouldn't have been rushed back. But he was apparently "unselectable" and had Rashid been carted around he probably wouldn't be mentioned in selection discussions now, so it may even be better for him to disassociate himself from that tour.

I think Rashid will probably come into it in the UAE if England decide to go down the two spinners route and he'll get a chance to impress from there. England started off with one spinner against Pakistan in the last series in the UAE, then corrected for their error. Last series, Ajmal took 24 wickets (3 tests), Rehman 19 in 3, Panesar 14 in 2 and Swann and Broad both took 13 in 3, so for both teams it was all about the spinners. I expect to see us start the series with two spinners, possibly with Wood missing out.

Well, looks like Moeen's golden arm tendencies have struck again.

On a more serious point, as it stands (since Swann's retirement) there is no spinner in county cricket that is making an overwhelming case for their selection for England as an out and out bowler. As such, picking a guy who bowls well enough (and certainly gets a few valuable wickets) and has the potential to be a genuine top order batsman is a reasonable option.

And being honest, if we picked Rashid instead, he would be fulfilling essentially the same role of all-rounder / spin bowler.

Moeen does fine and I'm pretty sure barring Swann actually has the lowest average of any English spinner in 20 years.

Yes he's expensive - but let's face it what spinner isn't? It's just the nature of their bowling, there bad balls are easier to dispatch.

Given time he could be a really good off spinner - but it will take time

Olly wrote:Moeen does fine and I'm pretty sure barring Swann actually has the lowest average of any English spinner in 20 years.

Yes he's expensive - but let's face it what spinner isn't? It's just the nature of their bowling, there bad balls are easier to dispatch.

Given time he could be a really good off spinner - but it will take time

Borthwick averages 20.5 ...bit of a false stat of course. But ist amazing just how far and quickly he dropped off the radar.


Tredwell 29.18, economy 2.45 ....Results beyond his apparent abilities. But them that was true of both Swann and Giles before him as well as a number of other wheelie bins.


*Edit just checked Giles stats ...he averaged over 40 with the ball! It is easy to forget just how bad things used to be I guess. The period of Ian Salisbury getting regular caps is at least long gone.

Borthwick really suffers through not bowling enough for Durham. His batting this season must be keeping him on the radar ; but unless/until he starts bowling a lot more and gathering wickets in numbers it is hard to see him forcing his way into the Test team again. Lions tours look to be his lot for now.

Giles' figures were ordinary. But remember in his time Flintoff meant he was always just there to provide a bit of rest for four pace men and make the odd break through . Which he did quite well , as well as making some handy runs down the order.

Bit like Moeen really

To be fair on Giles he was very economic, and used as a containing bowler rather than an attacking option which Swann, Panessar and now Ali are generally called upon to be. Alis strike rate is pretty awesome (pre this test anyway!) which with a pretty poor economy rate translates to a decent average.

The last two Tests haven't advanced the case for and against Moeen Ali as the England spinner : Pace bowlers have enjoyed the conditions and the loose Australian batting and done the job without much help.

However with the Ashes in the bag thoughts of the UAE trip start to intrude ; and I wonder if we have anything new to consider in terms of spin options ?

Obviously Ali will tour ; conceivably moving up to open the batting - which would open room to play a second spinner , presumably Rashid.

But is that it ? Or are England likely to use this trip as a opportunity to look at any other prospects ? Could they take a third spinner - and if so , who ?
Tredwell needs no introduction and I suppose would be the logical spare . Though I can't see them wanting to field him alongside Moeen (and Root) Variety appeals more.

I guess if , say , Bell didn't want to travel to the scene of his previous nightmare there might be a top order vacancy ; which might give an outside chance to Borthwick , who has made plenty of runs for Durham , and would supply another spin option. Unlikely , I know.

Trawling for any other suggestions ...

At some point England need to try Rashid if only to prove that he isn't the second coming of Shane Warne. To be honest i think that Rashid and Ali are probably of a similar level in terms of overall contribution to the team, with Ali being slightly better at batting and Rashid slightly better at bowling.

alfie wrote:The last two Tests haven't advanced the case for and against Moeen Ali as the England spinner : Pace bowlers have enjoyed the conditions and the loose Australian batting and done the job without much help.

However with the Ashes in the bag thoughts of the UAE trip start to intrude ; and I wonder if we have anything new to consider in terms of spin options ?

Obviously Ali will tour ; conceivably moving up to open the batting - which would open room to play a second spinner , presumably Rashid.

But is that it ? Or are England likely to use this trip as a opportunity to look at any other prospects ?  Could they take a third spinner - and if so , who ?  
Tredwell needs no introduction and I suppose would be the logical spare . Though I can't see them wanting to field him alongside Moeen (and Root) Variety appeals more.

I guess if , say , Bell didn't want to travel to the scene of his previous nightmare there might be a top order vacancy ; which might give an outside chance to Borthwick , who has made plenty of runs for Durham , and would supply another spin option. Unlikely , I know.

Trawling for any other suggestions ...

Hi Alfie - I'm sure that Surrey's left arm spinner Zafar Ansari (regularly (over?) championed on these threads by Olly) will come under consideration.

Alec Stewart has emphasised at members' forums how impressed the ECB have been with him when on Lions' tours, get togethers etc. He's had more opportunity to bowl this season and has undoubtedly come on with the ball. Now Surrey's leading spinner, having bowled about a third more CC overs this season than skipper Batty. He's also opening the batting in Championship games [ ''unusual and not ideal for a front line bowler'' - me to Stewie; ''being kept under review'' - Stewie in response to me. ]. Also a fine fielder, especially around the boundary.

A very clever guy academically but with a practical approach and a good temperament. Viewed by many at the Oval as a future Surrey captain. Also a classical pianist - don't know if that will help with sing songs on tour!