Hiroshima 70 years on.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Thu 06 Aug 2015, 1:08 pm

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33754931

The morality of what happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki has always troubled me. My grandfather who I never knew, suffered terribly at the hands of the Japanese in Burma, and I made a point of doing a bit of research into how cruel and degrading conditions were in that part of war.

WWII was a conflict that hopefully will never be surpassed in it's brutality and cruelty.

However the allies were responsible for some of the worst atrocities in the entire conflict.

The destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki whilst absolutley monstrous probably saved lives, however the morality still doesn't sit right with me.

‘ It is not enough that corruption is recognized, it must be opposed. It is not enough that ignorance is acknowledged. It must be defied. Win or lose, what matters is making a stand for the virtues we will bequeath to the human race in generations to come. When this war was finally "won", the Allies held a worthless prize since on the last day, on the last action, they led humanity into moral darkness. ’ - Hiroshima Survivor

Discuss....
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Post by Duty281 on Sat 08 Aug 2015, 8:22 pm

You debate the point, not the poster. And your continued ramblings about other people and how they (apparently) don't understand the subject is adding very little to the discussion.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 08 Aug 2015, 8:41 pm

I've debated the point ad nauseum. No one is condoning Russian behaviour in it's pre war non aggression pact with Germany...

But it doesn't alter the fact they were never an enemy..

Instead of scrambling around on the Internet for information buy a book on the origins of Operation barbarossa. ...

The NSWP hated communists and were always intending to invade Russia.

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 08 Aug 2015, 8:56 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I've debated the point ad nauseum.  No one is condoning Russian behaviour in it's pre war non aggression pact with Germany...

But it doesn't alter the fact they were never an enemy..

Instead of scrambling around on the Internet for information buy a book on the origins of Operation barbarossa. ...

The NSWP hated communists and were always intending to invade Russia.  

I've never said Russia were an enemy at any point. Headscratch

And as for your last point - yes, everyone knows that. And the Nazis were delayed in their invasion of the Soviet Union by their failure to conquer Britain. It was that delay which, ultimately, caused their defeat.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Sat 08 Aug 2015, 9:02 pm

I don't know WTF you're going on about and I don't think you do either.

However my Wife who is an allied force like Russia was in WW2 is waiting for me to take her out for a drink...

Like I said read about the origins of Operation Barborassa

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Post by Duty281 on Sat 08 Aug 2015, 9:06 pm

I have no clue what you are trying to argue, either. You said that Stalin's invasion of Poland was not part of the second World War - when I said it was (because it is) you said Churchill didn't declare war on Russia...which is irrelevant and completely obvious!

And I've got six books on the Second World War, thank you, don't need any more!

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Post by Hero on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 9:39 am

Was it not the case that in the weeks leading up to the bombings that Japan had been attempting to negotiate a surrender deal yet the stumbling block was that the U.S. were insistent upon it being an unequivocal surrender which would have resulted in Hirohito being tried for war crimes which the Japanese people couldn't accept as he had demigod status.
Odd that then after the bombings Hirohito was allowed to remain, perhaps the U.S. were well aware Japan would not accept an unconditional surrender and it was purely delaying tactics on their behalf until they were ready to flex their nuclear might?

The group that decided upon Hiroshima and Kyoto (the original target instead of Nagasaki) targeted them because of "their great psychological effect" and also did so with this quote “initial use was sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognised".
Effect and being internationally recognised by whom?

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 10:37 am

Sorry Truss but you take everything personal when it's about the US and as can be seen in this thread most of your 'rebuttals' come in the form of insulting the poster rather than the point. (Check Rudge, Rowley's, Shah's and Hero's posts to learn how to reply to a point you don't agree on)

Hero's post has opened up another point though and them quotes are supremely arrogant and disgusting. Bombing to end the war might still be distasteful to some but we can all see why the decision was made (although still don't understand why it had to be 2 cities bombed) but to do it to show everyone internationally what the US had is terrible.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-33754931  -  To put another side out there, this is one of the survivors of hiroshima's view on it all. Absolutely horrifying really.


And another point on why the bombing wasn't needed and Japan would have surrendered anyway (Taken from American studies and notes at the time) http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-lies-of-hiroshima-are-the-lies-of-today

http://stammsternenstaub.tumblr.com/post/85114518119/m-m-mad-madness-engineercat-lumoblaze - GIF and explanation of a nuclear explosion (I've watched this about 10 times now, it's fascinating yet has horrible implications)

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Post by Rowley on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 11:58 am

in all fairness Hero and Derby a lot depends on how you want to interpret the quotes. An equally plausible explanation is not that America are boasting about their new toys, but are saying to nations who may consider starting a global conflict again, that look at Hiroshima, look at Nagasaki, that is what global conflict now looks like. That is what we now have at our disposal to settle these conflicts. On the back of two global conflicts in 30 years, probably well over 50 million people lost ensuring such a conflict did not happen again was surely at the forefront of most rational folks mind. Suspect that is the rationale underpinning the "internationally recognised" quote.

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Post by Derbymanc on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 12:15 pm

Never thought of it like that Rowls, just seen the quote and thought that's terrible (probably after seeing it within this context) but it would actually make more sense the way you described it.

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Post by Hero on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 2:43 pm

General Stimson who chose the targets for the weapons himself said for why he chose civilian targets so that the world would 'better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon'.
The bombs were dropped not to end a war, but to send a warning to future aggressors that a war on a global scale again would put all those previous wars into pale insignificance for the amount of casualties.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 10:30 pm

Hiroshima and Nagasaki are the two reasons why I cannot and never will have any respect for people who try and condone the use of atomic weapons. Under no circumstances is it a morally acceptable thing to do and becomes even more unacceptable when carried out by a country with such a holier than thou attitude, it is the biggest and most disgusting act of terrorism in the history of humanity.

The lives of 250,000 innocent people were taken away with the click of a finger and it is a major bone of contention in my family as my great grandfather was a lead researcher on the manhattan project.

I am become death the destroyer of worlds.


Last edited by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Xenophobic views are not appreciated, although that may have been poor wording rather than intent.)

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Sun 09 Aug 2015, 11:15 pm

Truss, keep to the debating not the arguing, yeah? Your points would probably be very interesting to people with less knowledge on the subject if there wasnt such aggression in them.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 10:00 am

So Stalin wasn't part of the Allies? Am I missing something?
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Post by seanmichaels on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 10:31 am

Yeah he was. PQ17 where 24 of 35 merchant ships sailing to Russia with supplies were lost.

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Post by aja424 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 12:45 pm

If it wasn't for America, there would likely be another attrocity in the future similar to that in Japan, on European and/or UK soil from the likes of Iran. We should be thankful to the Yanks for assisting us in a turmoil era, although us British were as tough and brave as they come, who knows what would have became of our ancestors if it wasn't for American muscle.
Is this relevant? Does this justify dropping the bomb in Japan? I don't know?
But why the hate for America as opposed to the nation's which really are a threat?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 1:43 pm

I don't get this "hate" thing that people keep throwing around. I don't hate the USA and I don't think anyone on here that has posted "hates" the USA.

To quote myself:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
It is because of US intervention in both of the world wars that the UK was able to fight of German imperialism and national socialism. However that cannot, should not and will not exempt the US from criticism.

To put in laymans terms, just because the USA have done us a favour that doesn't mean we shouldn't criticize them.

Lets be clear about another thing. FDR wanted to assist Europe from the beginning of the war. His cabinet on the other hand were very reluctant to do anything more than sending weapons to Europe. It was only after the US own strategic interests were threatened that they entered the war.

The US and the UK's special relationship is one that we all should cherish but a partnership is worthless if they countries and political leadership just become a mutual admiration society. A partnership like that doesn't work if we don't discuss our mistakes of the past.

WWII was a barbaric war that reduced plenty of people to little more than savages. Total war normally results in the lines between civilian and soldier becoming very blurry. However using that as an excuse to vaporize and entire city doesn't wash with me. As I said the Japanese were a beaten force, even if their military leaders didn't see it that way. Ultimately it was the innocent people of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki that paid the heaviest price.

The Allies the US included in my opinion had just as big a responsibility to keep the ordinary Japanese people safe, as they would in an occupation like in Okinawa. It's all very well saying that Japan would have armed every man woman and child to defend Japan but doing some research it's easy to see that the Civilian side of the Japanese government wanted to surrender whereas the Militarized parts of the government wanted to fight on. I think had the US invaded (boots on the ground in a military campaign) the reality would be a few die hards fighting on whilst the majority of frightened conscripts would be surrendering.

It's no wonder the Japanese resisted unconditional surrender, after seeing what the Red Army did in occupied Germany can we really blame them for trying to negotiate better terms?
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 1:59 pm

America = Bad..

Everyone else = Good...

Glad we've cleared that up.. thumbsup

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:06 pm

Why wouldn't America move on the unconditional surrender thing Truss (I'm asking you cause i'm guessing you'll know more about it being the resident yank) ???

I was reading up on this the other day (in the links I posted) and it stated that the Japanese wouldn't accept unconditional surrender as this would mean a lot of the hierarchy being done for war crimes.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:23 pm

We wouldn't move because 2,400 families were ruined and billions of dollars of money was lost in an unprovoked attack on Pearl harbor...

Who are they to ask for conditions ???

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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:25 pm

Yet Hirohito wasn't then taken to trial after the war so the conditions could have been accepted.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:38 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:America = Bad..

Everyone else = Good...

Glad we've cleared that up.. thumbsup

Let me help you Truss, to understand my point of view.

I'm Scottish, I study Scottish history because it puts the history of Britain into a bit of perspective.

Scotland has 2 wildly supported heroes from history, William Wallace and Robert the Bruce. Now forgive me for being patronizing but you seem to play on your knowledge of History so I'm sure the only history you know about these two comes from Mel Gibson.

Wallace a fierce warrior, a patriot but also a product of his time. The battle of Stirling Bridge, (bridge omitted from movie for filming purposes) was a war crime in it's day. Decorum stipulated that the armies of England and Scotland would meet in open ground and fight it out. Meeting England's armies in open ground was suicide (a lesson later learned by the Patriots of the US fighting for independence from Britain 400 years later) so Wallace waited for them to start crossing the bridge and Slaughtered them when only half of the army had made the crossing. By all accounts this was a crime. He later sacked York.

Robert the Bruce murdered John Comyn (a rival to the throne of Scotland) in a church at a peace meeting.

Now I am a patriot I love my country, however I can't look back on this stuff with pride. We basically cheated and did what we had to do. These men were products of their times. However it doesn't mean we can excuse their actions.

Flying forward a bit :

The conduct of the Great Britain in the wars of US independence was dreadful.
The horrific expansion of the British empire as they took what they wanted backed up by firearms from civilizations far older than ours.
The US expansion and wars against the native American Indian people.
Use of chemical and germ warfare agents in WWI
The bombing of Dresden in WWII.
The sinking French Fleet at anchor in WWII.
The bombing of Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki better take that out it might offend people  Rolling Eyes

What I'm getting at is that our countries have both made mistakes in the past, perhaps mistakes is the wrong word.

Let's try : done things we cannot be proud of.

People like bashing the US (in particular Bush) for the Iraq war, but not me I disagree with that stand point. The world is a better place without Hussein. However that doesn't mean I think the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acceptable.


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:38 pm

Hero wrote:Yet Hirohito wasn't then taken to trial after the war so the conditions could have been accepted.

Saddam wasn't taken after the first Iraq war.....

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:39 pm

To save a lot of civilian lives the yanks should have gone back to the table in my opinion, they would (possibly) have accepted a surrender with the war crimes bit taken out (as Hero pointed out, that made no difference on the outcome).

I don't really understand that mentality of 'i'm refusing to budge so instead we'll destroy 2 cities'

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:43 pm

They wouldn't surrender unconditionally Derby............

Whilst the atomic bombs were more potent than we realised...........They knew what was coming If they didn't surrender..

They didn't tell us about Pearl Harbor..

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Post by Derbymanc on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:47 pm

They never would have if they thought their hierachy was going to be done for War Crimes, if bombing Pearl Harbour (a military target) was considered a war crime by the Americans then surely devasting 2 cities full of civilians should be looked on the same?

I know that some of the people involved greatly regret the Atom Bomb but I would be interested to know if the people ultimately in charge showed regret after the fact (With hindsight).

I am reluctant to absolutely condemn America for it as it was a different time and none of us (I assume) had to live through it just wonder if any regrets would be shown now.

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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:54 pm

To me the bombs were dropped not to end a war, but to warn against a future one.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:56 pm

Pearl Harbor...Was just as much of a crime as 9/11..............

We weren't at war........... Rolling Eyes

It was murder...

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 2:57 pm

Hero wrote:To me the bombs were dropped not to end a war, but to warn against a future one.

Well that's it then......I've changed my mind.

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:01 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They wouldn't surrender unconditionally Derby............

Whilst the atomic bombs were more potent than we realised...........They knew what was coming If they didn't surrender..

They didn't tell us about Pearl Harbor..

The Pearl Harbour one always makes be a little confused. Sure it was a surprise attack and a little bit un-sportsman like however as Wallace did with the English so many years ago, you have to play to your strengths.

Hashinobi tactics in Feudal Japan were very similar.

In every war the Hashinobi fought, they struck first and without warning. For the Hashinobi, to know an enemy plans to attack and let it happen is folly; to announce their own plans to attack is insanity.

They found the Samurai moral concepts of "honour" and "declare a war before prosecuting it" incredibly naive. In defensive wars, they execute devastating preemptive strikes hours before the enemy's own attacks. On the offense, they have never issued an official declaration of war before attacking.

Western society knows them as Ninjas...

Pearl Harbour by extension is an entire country playing by this set of rules. I don't agree with it, but it's hard to argue against the methodology.

Similar to the Atomic bomb. I don't agree with it but again the methodology of finishing the war quickly was ultimately successful.

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Post by Rowley on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:01 pm

Hero wrote:To me the bombs were dropped not to end a war, but to warn against a future one.

Even if this is correct is it such a bad thing? As i said previously there had been two world wars in less than 30 years. Is seeking to ensure that does not happen again such an ignoble objective?

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:03 pm

Rowley wrote:
Hero wrote:To me the bombs were dropped not to end a war, but to warn against a future one.

Even if this is correct is it such a bad thing? As i said previously there had been two world wars in less than 30 years. Is seeking to ensure that does not happen again such an ignoble objective?

At the expense of over a quarter of a million innocent lives?
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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:04 pm

Not at all, certainly can be argued the case that without the bombings that aggressors would be far more likely to have entered another global war with their eyes not fully opened to nuclear strikes.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:05 pm

You'll find that the position of the US military and which Truman went along with was to end the war before we lost thousands and thousands of allied soldiers in an invasion.....

I think you need to remember we were dealing with unresonable people who produced Kamikaze pilots and thought starving troops and bayoneting living soldiers was acceptable behaviour..

Like I said we funded your welfare state program and gave you the money for the NHS all you boys use...

We do have a nice side..


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Post by Adam D on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:13 pm

Hero wrote:Not at all, certainly can be argued the case that without the bombings that aggressors would be far more likely to have entered another global war with their eyes not fully opened to nuclear strikes.
racist

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:14 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You'll find that the position of the US military and which Truman went along with was to end the war before we lost thousands and thousands of allied soldiers in an invasion.....

I think you need to remember we were dealing with unresonable people who produced Kamikaze pilots and thought starving troops and bayoneting living soldiers was acceptable behaviour..

Like I said we funded your welfare state program and gave you the money for the NHS all you boys use...

We do have a nice side..


Get the chip of the shoulder mate, no one is saying you don't have a nice side.

Not every American is a Lion shooting dentist or gun totting warmonger. Wink

However you seem to fall into the trap of every single Japanese person was a Kamikaze pilot or commandant of a Labour camp.

There were hundreds of thousands of normal people vaporized too, are they acceptable collateral?

In my OP I mentioned my grandad and how he was taken prisoner at Singapore, I know all about how badly the Japanese treated POWs. That doesn't excuse nuking 2 cities!
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Post by Rowley on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:14 pm

That's very good Adam, genuinely made me L*L

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:15 pm

Hero is typical of someone jumping in who knows nothing about the subject...

I don't think we thought that far ahead.....Americans and allied troops being killed and abused was more than likely a more immediate concern... Rolling Eyes

Geez..

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Post by superflyweight on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:26 pm

Your arguments are all well and good Truss but look at the result of your country's actions:

Hiroshima 70 years on. - Page 2 Godzilla%20-%209


Maybe they'll stop and think for a bit longer next time!

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:29 pm

superflyweight wrote:Your arguments are all well and good Truss but look at the result of your country's actions:

Hiroshima 70 years on. - Page 2 Godzilla%20-%209


Maybe they'll stop and think for a bit longer next time!

Laugh
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:31 pm

Truman had other pressures as well..............

1. The people were getting tired of war and wanted their children and Fathers back...

2. It was costing America a fortune...

His generals like they did with LBJ were briefing him horror stories also......

Truman expressed regret later that the bombs were as potent as they were.....But he never regretted ending the war, saving allied lives and months more misery for those involved and their people...

Truman was a good man..........."The accidental President" ....

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:37 pm

I don't hold Truman responsible, and feel he was left with little choice. A president is ultimately the decision maker, however his advisers will have played a key part.

However I remain unconvinced that those involved with the Manhattan project properly briefed the president on what he was about to give the order for.

Ignorance I'm sure had a part to play in the first bombing. Less so for the second one.

All parties in WW2 showed very little concern for civilian casualties. I suppose that's what marked it out as such a terrible conflict.

Terror bombings were deployed by all sides throughout the war.
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Post by seanmichaels on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:41 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Terror bombings were deployed by all sides throughout the war.

And war crimes. A lot of Jerry prisoners copped it at the end of the European campaign.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:43 pm

How many Jews were killed again....

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Post by RuggerRadge2611 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:50 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:How many Jews were killed again....

Noone really knows. Possibly as much as 1.5 million. A tragedy of staggering proportions.

But again you can't counter war crimes with other war crimes.

‘ It is not enough that corruption is recognized, it must be opposed. It is not enough that ignorance is acknowledged. It must be defied. Win or lose, what matters is making a stand for the virtues we will bequeath to the human race in generations to come. When this war was finally "won", the Allies held a worthless prize since on the last day, on the last action, they led humanity into moral darkness. ’ - Hiroshima Survivor
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Post by seanmichaels on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:55 pm

Were the Japs researching nuclear weapons? The Nazis definitely were. Could easily have been Coventry or Rotherham that was the first hit with the A-Bomb. The damage would have run in to tens of pounds......

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 3:56 pm

Anyway....It's been fun seeing so many posters pretending they know anything about WW2 and the motives of those involved....

Thanks for an entertaining thread !!

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 4:11 pm

Yep, you've embarrassed yourself on this thread, Truss, I hope you're pleased! thumbsup

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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 4:41 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hero is typical of someone jumping in who knows nothing about the subject...

I don't think we thought that far ahead.....Americans and allied troops being killed and abused was more than likely a more immediate concern... Rolling Eyes

Geez..

Nice of you to think that Truss, my grandfather was actually an American pilot for one of the Flying Fortresses (rather than the Super Fortresses that were used in the Pacific).

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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 4:49 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Hero is typical of someone jumping in who knows nothing about the subject...

I don't think we thought that far ahead.....Americans and allied troops being killed and abused was more than likely a more immediate concern... Rolling Eyes

Geez..

And I'm very much sure military leaders look long term, Germany pre-WW1 (not WW2) had provisional plans for a long term naval campaign against the US which it realized would be its main rival if they won the European war using the Schlieffen plan. These plans were made as early as 1897.

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Post by Hero on Mon 10 Aug 2015, 4:53 pm

seanmichaels wrote:Were the Japs researching nuclear weapons? The Nazis definitely were. Could easily have been Coventry or Rotherham that was the first hit with the A-Bomb. The damage would have run in to tens of pounds......

Yes they had two projects on it during the war but they were nowhere near completion.

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