England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

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England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 6:00 pm

Good afternoon all.

I accept this is a bit premature with the 5th Ashes test and ODI series still to come. However with 3 tests against Pakistan and a further 4 against South Africa to follow before the end of January I thought I would start a thread to discuss possible squad changes and team selection for these coming tours.

Due to the vast difference in conditions with which the side will be faced by in each of the series the squad selection will be more pertinent than usual.

In the UAE we will need 3 spinners in the squad. With two guaranteed to be Moeen and Rashid that leaves space for a bolter. With no real standouts there are plenty of names being thrown around with Tredwell, Riley, Panesar, Ansari, Borthwick and even 18 year Mason Crane being touted as possibilities. (I think I will politely pass over Corporals suggestion of Gary Keedy Wink )

In short we very much need a third spinner to throw their hand up. Running through the options listed above:

Tredwell - He has displaced Riley from the Kent CC side and would offer a solid pair of hands if we wanted a more controlling option next to Rashid or Ali.

Riley - He has really struggled this season and has now not played for Kents first XI in 6 weeks. Rumours abound that his action was remodelled over the winter. I'm not sure how substantiated this however.

Panesar - Only just returned to the Essex side and is a suggestion of hope rather than expectation really. I'd love to believe he could put his recent issues behind him and find his old form as of all our spinners available he has the most pedigree, at his best, by a distance. I very much struggle to believe that he will however.

Ansari - A slow left armer who has been much improved with the ball this season. His returns are still more solid than spectacular with 39 wickets at 32.4 runs apiece in division 2. He is however a very good all round cricket who is rated highly by the England selectors and coaches. He bats anywhere in the order but vitally given our struggle for openers, and talk of Ali opening, he has opened the batting well for Surrey. A good bet for the squad in the UAE given he would offer versatility and another option at the top.

Borthwick - 116 overs bowled for 9 wickets at an average of 57 in CC cricket this season. It looks like he will need a change of county if he truly still wishes to be a spinner. He has batted very well from number 3 however with over 900 runs at an averge of 41.

Crane - Only two FC matches into his proffesional career and he's being touted for England selection. That probably sums up our spin problems as well as anything! He looks a real talent at he can turn the ball big and give it some air. We've been here with leg spinners before however.

Beyond this obvious problem there is also the question of opening batsmen and reserve batsmen, wicket keeper and seamers.

If Lyth remains we will still need a 3rd opening batsmen in the squad as reserve. If he goes then we could even need a couple. There are talks of Ali opening in the UAE where his struggles against the short ball shouldn't be exposed as brutally. Can Alex Hales find the consistency needed in test cricket? Has Nick Compton burnt his bridges? Daryl Mitchell and Rory Burns are also scoring strongly at the top of the order for their counties.

In the middle order James Taylor is coming back to form at a good time. Gary Ballance also won't be too far away I imagine. Steve Davies and Jason Roy are scoring strongly in division 2. Sam Hain is a huge talent but it is probably a winter too soon.

With question marks over Butler as a test batsmen and Bairstow as a wicket keeper, Chris Read hasn't chosen a bad season to average over 60 with the bat. If we wanted the option of an excellent gloveman for difficult keeping conditions in the UAE and also an experienced head for a tough winter then he wouldn't be a bad option in the short term.

Anderson, Broad, Wood and Finn, with Stokes supporting, are now obviously going to tour. However with Anderson injured, Broad prone to fatigue and Wood prone to injury we will need the right players in the squad behind them. In South Africa especially this will be vital.

Plunkett and Footit being called up as cover for Anderson must have a foot in the door. Chris Woakes is back playing as well. In division 1 Craig Overton, Jack Brooks, Jack Shantry, James Harris and the ever impressive Chris Rushworth are having strong seasons.

Guaranteed for the UAE tour squad - Cook, Bell, Root, Bairstow, Butler, Stokes, Ali, Rashid, Broad, Wood, Anderson, Finn.

By my logic that leaves 2 openers, a middle order batsmen, a 3rd spinner and at least one more seamer still required.

If Ali (and possibly Ansari) are considered as openers then probably only one spot up for grabs at the top of the order but possibly another middle order batsmen in with a shot?


Last edited by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 6:48 pm

Hi Carlos - little time to comment now but, as usual, a well thought out and detailed post.

The only thing missing - and you were probably unlucky that I was particularly looking after my comments earlier today on the ''Moeen'' thread - is that having mentioned Ansari, you don't give him an overview.

Of the other possible spinners, I do like Tredwell as I've often emphasised. However, I suspect that his greatest strength to my mind - him being a safe and dependable pair of hands - will count against him as the selectors look for a more adventurous third option.

I hadn't realised Read's average this season was so high. He's another I've liked for a long time and I suggested England went back to him last year. I would guess though that his time has now gone.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:09 pm

Cheers for pointing that our guildford - I have now added an overview for him.

I was planning on writing a seperate paragraph discussing the posibility of Ansari or Ali opening against Pakistan. In the end I completely forgot. Doh

I agree with Tredwell. If we want a controlling option to complement Ali or Rashid then he is our best bet by a distance. Ali and Rashid can both take wickets but if they are bowling in tandem and go round the park then we wont have many places to hide.

Re Read, I was more thinking out loud than anything else! I don't really think he will be under consideration. I just feel that given how tough keeping can be in the UAE and the depth our batting should have he would offer some nice balance and experience to the side.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:14 pm

Good opening post. OK

I imagine Moeen and Rashid are nailed-on. For the third spinner, if this was a tight series then I would advocate England playing it safe and going for Tredwell. But I think England are going to struggle, so they may as well have a little experiment and plump for Ansari to see what he can bring to this England team.

With any luck, it'll be just like the time England picked Swann for the India tour - he took two wickets in his first over, and the spinning conundrum was solved for the next five years.

I'm hoping Compton gets a recall. He's solid, unspectacular, has experience in the subcontinent, and can partner Cook at the top of the order. Just what the English need. I'm also hoping any talk of Alex Hales coming along is just that - talk.

Taylor and Ballance should definitely be in the squad, Bairstow too. I imagine Bell will be retiring soon, and if he doesn't I don't think his selection is merited.

16 the size of the squad, again?

If so: Cook/Compton/Ansari/Taylor/Root/Bairstow/Ballance/Buttler/Stokes/Woakes/Ali/Rashid/Broad/Wood/Anderson/Finn

With a starting XI of: Cook, Compton, Taylor, Root, Bairstow, Ali, Ansari, Stokes, Buttler, Broad, Anderson (Batting order not definite!).

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:21 pm

Thanks Duty. Smile

When I start hearing yourself say we will struggle then I really do worry however! Erm

Would you start Ansari over Rashid looking at that line-up?

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:55 pm

From day one I have stated that I do not feel Lyth would be good enough for international cricket, and do feel we need someone - however what has compton done to deserve a call up? He bats at 3 for Middlesex and has not been in the runs - unless he has been bradman-like while I have been away.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 8:35 pm

king_carlos wrote:Thanks Duty. Smile

When I start hearing yourself say we will struggle then I really do worry however! Erm

Would you start Ansari over Rashid looking at that line-up?

Yes, I think Ansari has greater potential than Rashid, so would be more inclined to give the left-armer a go.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 9:10 pm

LondonTiger wrote:From day one I have stated that I do not feel Lyth would be good enough for international cricket, and do feel we need someone - however what has compton done to deserve a call up? He bats at 3 for Middlesex and has not been in the runs - unless he has been bradman-like while I have been away.

Re Compton, the simple answer is a lack of other options. Most who want a change of personnel at the top of the order are looking for more solidity and obdurance to see off the new ball. Compton hasn't scored bucket loads of runs but he has been reasonably consistent and averages a tad under 40 for the season. He also offers a bit more toughness.

Given the potential of our middle order to capitilise on a good start with quick scoring I think most are tending towards an opener to build a foundation consistently rather than intermittently take an attack apart themselves. IMO this is what a test opener should do first and foremost anyway.

I heard similar worries about Lyth from a few Yorkshire fans prior to his selection. His form last season meant that he deserved the chance he has got regardless of those views though. If he doesn't get a score in the 5th test it may well be his last for a while however.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 9:18 pm

Duty281 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:Thanks Duty. Smile

When I start hearing yourself say we will struggle then I really do worry however! Erm

Would you start Ansari over Rashid looking at that line-up?

Yes, I think Ansari has greater potential than Rashid, so would be more inclined to give the left-armer a go.

Do you think that as a batsmen, bowler or all round cricketer Duty?

I rate Ansari very highly and I believe he is a player who already offers much more to a side than many would think from simply surveying his figures. He has an excellent temperament and a real will to put his hand up during difficult spells whether batting, bowling or fielding.

There are facets of his game I still feel need improvement however. Namely, he has shown a tendency to get himself into a rut as a batsmen where he struggles to score for long spells though. Plus he has struggled for runs this season. He has also got starts without going onto big scores on too many occasions for my liking.

I also think Rashid is a very good cricketer. He is an underrated batsmen and has a knack of taking wickets which is what you want from a leggie. He can also turn the ball both ways which is great skill for any spinner.

Rashid has earn't his chance in the UAE if we go with two spinners - which seems like almost a certainty.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 9:43 pm

I certainly agree Ansari's bowling has come on a fair bit this season, so he is a reasonable outside bet for selection.  I would be doubtful about throwing him in as an opener.  Although his record, opening for Surrey, is reasonable it is not stellar and he is prone to becoming very becalmed. Ironically he is yet another player who could be well fitted to batting at 6, 7 or 8 for England.

Has Kerrigan been written off completely? In first class cricket this season he's taken 30 wickets at an average of 29.36, economy rate 2.77.  I'm not particularly advocating his selection.

It's worth noting that Ansari, Kerrigan, Tredwell, among others have been playing in Div 2, where there are, I fear, a fair number of ordinary batsmen.

A slightly less unlikely suggestion than Gary Keedy would be the old pro, Gareth Batty, whose figures in FC matches this season are fairly similar to those of Kerrigan.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by kingraf on Sat 15 Aug 2015, 11:21 am

Don't watch any County Cricket, so I can't comment on the spinners to pick. However, I watch a lot of Pakistani cricket, and I would say that it's very important to understand that the pitches over there generally don't break down into dustbowls. They are very conducive to slow bowling, yes. But it's not a simple case of only needing to chuck (I mean bowl legally, of course) it at 55mph and the pitch will do the rest. As such, I'd say that if England pick three spinners, they need to have three quality spinners. Can't just pick three and expect to win because they picked three. Pakistan are probably the premier spin players in the world now.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Sun 16 Aug 2015, 2:17 pm

I expect I've watched far less of games in the UAE than yourself kingraf but would agree with that assesment.

In fact I think that some of the pitches in the UAE are the best spin friendly test wickets I've seen because they don't break down to the point of being unplayable. They offer that bit for the quicks early on if they keep to their disciplines and put their back into it - hitting the pitch hard is often required to get much out of it. They also offer batsmen a chance to get in and score if they apply themselves. All this whilst offering an increasing amount for the spinners as the game goes on without it breaking down into a dust bowl or doing too much too early. Excellent pitches IMO.

I feel that the balance of our two spinners could be vital due to this and how well Pakistan play spin. Ali and Rashid should get a chance on merit but I fear that neither have the control to tie up an end if batsmen play themselves in. As such I think they could go round the park a bit leaving us with little/nowhere to turn as plan B.

This is why I think that the third spinner in the squad is very important. They need that ability to control an end when needed and make a settled batsmen work for their runs.

I would suggest Tredwell is best suited to this but many on these boards feel it would be a backward selection.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Mon 17 Aug 2015, 11:39 am

Well I for one would support Tredwell, though I think I will be in the minority as the masses tend to want the next great thing (Rashid at the moment!)

I actually think in the UAE, assuming Lyth doesn't smash a majestic double hundred at The Oval there could be a place for Moeen in the top 6, with both Rashid and another playing. I would personally go for Tredwell as you need some control and experience if we are going to play a rookie legspinner

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Mon 17 Aug 2015, 12:28 pm

I tend to agree with VTR that Tredwell might be the safe choice ; and a line up of Cook. Moeen. Bell. Root. Bairstow.Stokes. Buttler. Rashid. Broad. Tredwell. Anderson would provide deep batting and plenty of bowling options.
However guildford and Olly are half way to persuading me that the presence of a left arm spinner might be useful...having never seen Ansari I wouldn't have a clue but the variety is a little tempting...

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Tue 18 Aug 2015, 2:38 am

It will be important to not reduce our seamers to an after thought whilst trying to concentrate on dealing with the spin deficiencies.

Our seamer stocks are much stronger than our spin bowling stocks and we will still need them to perform. The UAE pitches aren't completely flat and dead tracks. If seamers stick to their discipline and hit the pitch hard they can still get some purchase. As in all test matches making us of the new ball will still be vital.

The difference in the UAE will be rotating our seamers more than we do in England. In order to get some purchase our quicks will need to bowl in short, sharp and accurate spells. A three man seam attack with Stokes as the 3rd seamer won't be able to do this consistently. Especially when you factor in the Jimmy isn't getting any younger and Broad is prone to fatigue.

With that three man attack we would allow a foundation to be set before our spinners came on. Sadly our spinners aren't currently good enough to break that foundation against Pakistans batsmen who are excellent players of spin.

Three proper seamers and two spinners with Stokes having justify himself as a batsmen first and foremost will be the way to go IMO. This is where Ali opening could be considered as it would allow us to keep Stokes at 6 and Rashid at 8 whilst maintaining three full seamers. I'm not a fan of selecting makeshift openers but given our lack of other options throwing their hands up it does have some merit.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 18 Aug 2015, 8:00 am

Was this the most recent first class match in UAE?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2015/engine/match/804121.html

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Aug 2015, 10:17 am

Its worth noting that Broad has his best overall figures of any country in the UAE (albeit from a tiny sample of games)
But it does show that even a green track bully can perform out there.

That said England fell into the trap of trying to rely on their seamers for the first test last time. This time they dont even have Swann, so really have to look at two full timers plus Root.

I cant see them picking 3 though, that would be a huge jump espeiclaly with some decent part time over available from Root.

Ali opening...hmm. A few weeks ago people didnt even think he was worth a place in the side. Some of the 3 spinner teams mooted would only leave England with 4 specialist batsmen in the side, it just doesnt sit right to me. With Buttler as well its too many players getting picked for supplemntray skills rather than being the best available at their primary role.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 18 Aug 2015, 10:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:Was this the most recent first class match in UAE?

http://www.espncricinfo.com/county-cricket-2015/engine/match/804121.html

Good find!

Moderately relevant that both Lyth and Rashid had very good games. Cook (who was firmly in his slump then), Ansari and Riley less so.

Obviously cant read too much into tone exhibition game but its nice to have some hope that Lyth may fair better there than he did against Aus and NZ

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 18 Aug 2015, 9:51 pm

Glad to see #ansariforengland is gathering real pace - it'll be majestic to see him 27* (165) at tea on day 1 of the 2nd test in UAE. 

On a more serious note, I'd go for Moeen to open in UAE, with Rashid coming in at 8. Think that is a logical solution that could work, and allows us to keep the 4 seamers in case these guys don't come off (which is a distinct possibility against Pakistan)

I would like to see Taylor included on the tour in the batting department, with Roy as a possible outsider. I wouldn't be adverse to Tredwell going as a backup option behind Ali/Rashid/Ansari...but do kind of think if we're taking 4 spinners it may be worth the 4th guy being a youngster with potential...so long as the Lions don't have games at that time.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Wed 19 Aug 2015, 10:51 am

Why would Tredwell be back up to Ansari? He's the more senior man with quite a lot of international experience

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 19 Aug 2015, 11:13 am

For the UAE the makeup of our XI will either be:

5 batters, Stokes, Buttler, 2 spinners, 2 seamers

or

5 batters (including Ali), Stokes, Buttler, spinner, 3 seamers


This probably means we will take at most:

3 batters deemed capable of opening, 4 batters for positions 3-5, Stokes, 2 keepers, 3 spinners, 4/5 seamers.

That makes 17/18 players and with Cook, Bell, Root, Bairstow, Ballance, Stokes, Buttler, Ali, Rashid, Broad, Wood, Finn, Anderson and Plunkett (if they take 5 seamers) all likely to tour - not many spots free.

18 is also a fairly big party to take and a lot of drinks waiters. Of course that can be cut down by including Ali as cover for opener, and Bairstow as keeper cover.

Whichever way we look at however there will not be many additions to the guys who have featured so far this summer.

If he has a decent ODI series then Hales could go. Taylor will be at the front of the queue should there be a batting vacancy (but pretty sure Ballance will get first dibs) which potentially leaves us with just a backup spinner to find.

Really cannot see them taking 4 spinners.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 19 Aug 2015, 7:28 pm

VTR wrote:Why would Tredwell be back up to Ansari? He's the more senior man with quite a lot of international experience

Because Ansari is the better bowler...

It's also pretty ridiculous that they aren't giving Rashid a go in this final test. He's only played 5 championship games this summer, bowled only a smidge over 150 overs in those games and we expect him to just slot in in the UAE like he hasn't missed a beat.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by kingraf on Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:34 am

Well, it's ridiculous that he hasn't been sent back down to county at differing points, but not so much ridiculous that he isn't playing. You don't select players "to give them a go" in tests. Simply isn't the done thing. I also think England would be a little hesitant to do it given the fact that the last time they selected players for the sake of selecting them (fifth Ashes Test 2013), they didn't win another test for eleven tests.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:20 am

Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:Why would Tredwell be back up to Ansari? He's the more senior man with quite a lot of international experience

Because Ansari is the better bowler...

It's also pretty ridiculous that they aren't giving Rashid a go in this final test. He's only played 5 championship games this summer, bowled only a smidge over 150 overs in those games and we expect him to just slot in in the UAE like he hasn't missed a beat.

Is Ansari really the better bowler? His record seems decent but doesn't have the years of experience like Tredwell, who has been very highly ranked in ODIs before (top 10 I think) so has proven he can cut it bowling to international batsmen. Ansari has built up a record in Division 2 of the CC

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:26 am

Experience is the most overrated thing in sports, just because you've done something before five years ago don't mean it'll happen again.

Zaf is the better bowler as of this moment in time imo, and as such should be the third spinner not tredwell
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Thu 20 Aug 2015, 12:15 pm

I don't think experience is overrated when it comes to international spinners. Swann was a great spinner but did not really flourish until he was almost 30.

Ansari looks to have good potential, but I think it could be too early for him, maybe he will be better on the Lions tour?

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Thu 20 Aug 2015, 2:00 pm

Suppose if you have Rashid and Moeen who are both very new to Test cricket it makes sense to have a Tredwell up your sleeve rather than another raw recruit.
I'm not that set either way as I think the pace bowlers may do better than is generally assumed . If you look back to last time (shudder !) ; it was the pace men who had Pakistan collapsing in the first innings of the third Test to what really should have been a losing score. They won't be entirely impotent ; and the two spinners plus Root should be reasonable backup. Key is for England to make a lot of runs...

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by robbo277 on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 4:56 pm

Considering Hales has made 10 times more runs than Lyth today, I think Hales could definitely come into the squad for Lyth.

The issue is Lyth needs to be replaced and Rashid needs to come in, but they're not like for like. So do you do a patch job and throw Ali up to open and bring Rashid in at 8? Do you take out a seamer and bring in Rashid at 9 to go 3+2? Or do you bring Ali up into the middle order and play 3 bowlers + Rashid with Stokes and Ali as all-rounders in the lower middle order.

If you go with the first, the team is quite simple. Cook and Ali at the top, the middle order as is and Rashid taking Moeen's place in the lower order with 3 seamers.

If you go with the second, which seamers do you go with? Especially considering they may try to force Anderson back in the team. You'd imagine it would be Anderson and Broad, unless they give Jimmy the series off. You also need a new opener.

I favour the third. I'd bring in Hales to open and Rashid at 8. I would bring Ali up to 7 and then it's a shoot-out between Bairstow and Buttler to come in, with Stokes playing at 5 or 6. I'd potentially go with Buttler to start with, because his keeping is better and wickets will be at a premium. With Broad and Wood we bat down to 10, Stokes may be a little high at 5, but with less bowling to worry about as effectively the 6th option in spinning conditions, he can focus more on his batting.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 5:11 pm

Perhaps Hales does have a future. Perhaps he can be England's response to Virender Sehwag.

But I would rather he wasn't thrown in at the deep end, in conditions that are utterly alien. His confidence could be destroyed irreparably with a bad series in the UAE.

I think England should wait until next summer, against Sri Lanka at home, to give Hales a try.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 5:19 pm

Surely Bell's spot is still at risk?

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 5:31 pm

I think Bell's retiring after this test.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Fri 21 Aug 2015, 7:41 pm

Ballance on 98* overnight as he looks to regain form for Yorkshire
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 9:39 am

Duty281 wrote:Perhaps Hales does have a future. Perhaps he can be England's response to Virender Sehwag.

But I would rather he wasn't thrown in at the deep end, in conditions that are utterly alien. His confidence could be destroyed irreparably with a bad series in the UAE.

I think England should wait until next summer, against Sri Lanka at home, to give Hales a try.

UAE is one of the easier places in the world to open the innings (only test matches in India see openers average more). Certainly it is, statistically, easier to open in UAE than in England.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by kingraf on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 10:09 am

Duty281 wrote:I think Bell's retiring after this test.

You have made that abundantly clear. Repeatedly
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 10:21 am

kingraf wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I think Bell's retiring after this test.

You have made that abundantly clear. Repeatedly

This is only the 4th time I've said it!

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 10:21 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Perhaps Hales does have a future. Perhaps he can be England's response to Virender Sehwag.

But I would rather he wasn't thrown in at the deep end, in conditions that are utterly alien. His confidence could be destroyed irreparably with a bad series in the UAE.

I think England should wait until next summer, against Sri Lanka at home, to give Hales a try.

UAE is one of the easier places in the world to open the innings (only test matches in India see openers average more). Certainly it is, statistically, easier to open in UAE than in England.

Perhaps, but I don't think it will work the same way for England.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 11:25 am

If Hales deserves to go, he should. ODI series v Aus will tell us a lot.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 3:06 pm

LondonTiger wrote:If Hales deserves to go, he should. ODI series v Aus will tell us a lot.

Maybe. I think if they rate Hales for the five day game , take him whether or not he is dominant in ODI - though some scores wouldn't hurt !

You could keep him on ice with a view to the SA trip ; but I'd sooner see him introduced before . I'd have picked him for this Test , mind.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 3:10 pm

Maybe

Cook Hales Bell ? Root Bairstow. Stokes. Buttler.Ali.Rashid.Broad.Anderson.
+
Taylor Borthwick Finn Wood Woakes or Tredwell

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Sat 22 Aug 2015, 7:10 pm

I would drop Bell (unless he does as Duty thinks and not his agent) play Ali at 3, Rashid 8 and an extra seamer.

Pretty sure Ballance will be going as backup batter, perhaps Taylor as well.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Jetty on Sun 23 Aug 2015, 2:48 am

Last time in the UAE Broad econ 2.28 Anderson 2.30. Looks like we will need their economy with Stokes, Ali and Rashid unlikely to be tight Smile

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 8:42 am

alfie wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:If Hales deserves to go, he should. ODI series v Aus will tell us a lot.

Maybe.  I think if they rate Hales for the five day game , take him whether or not he is dominant in ODI - though some scores wouldn't hurt !

You could keep him on ice with a view to the SA trip ; but I'd sooner see him introduced before .  I'd have picked him for this Test  , mind.

Thing is his reputation is built on T20.
If he cant hack ODIs (which he hasnt done so far, his records pretty bad) what on earth would make people think he could in tests?
Lyth has a better CC record for all those runs are worth. Although the way things are being played now Im not sure how represnetative ODI batting is of tests anyway, England seem content to ask their players to act like theres 10 overs left from go.

He is a talented player but hes a long way off proving hes capable of opening the test batting in South Africa which is where they would head next after UAE. (I dont belive hes ever had a Lions "test"? )
I do think Hales has the potential to become an all formats player but Im really not sure hes there yet off the back of a few scores in the CC. Its pretty clear England are happy for him to concentrate on his core formats currently, they encouraged him to play (or sit on the bench) in the IPL rather than play CC games mid season.

Ali too...we are talking about a limited overs specialist whos struggling to keep a test average over 30, who only a few months ago was relegated to number 8, as an opener / 3? Its a leap of faith.


I really dont see England doing anything massively radical even if the side does have glaring issues. Dropping both Lyth and Bell would leave two spots to fill by guys previously not thought of as good enough to get in the squad at all.
Theres plenty of uncertainty with the mid order too, Bairstow has still got a bit of work to firmly assert himself as a long term test player. Buttlers been struggling for runs for some time.

You could make a case for replacing pretty much the entire team tbh. But they wont.

Lyth though, jeez. Its hard to see how you can retain him.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 11:49 am


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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 11:52 am

Appears tom westley may get a call up for the limited overs stuff
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 12:20 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:I think Bell's retiring after this test.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cricket/ian-bell-hints-at-retirement-after-england-win-the-ashes-10468295.html

He's hinting at it!



Ian Bell wrote:Hopefully, I've got a lot of cricket ahead of me

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 12:37 pm

County cricket? Or does he fancy himself for an IPL contract!

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by dummy_half on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 12:42 pm

I can see a case for Moeen or another stroke player (Hales?) being given the opener spot in UAE, but it's really only pushing the opener question into the long grass, as there is no way I want him opening in South Africa or in the next home series.

Lyth, as others have said, did enough last year in the CC to deserve an extended chance. Unfortunately, like many before, he has found the step up too great, and I think has to be consigned to the 'discard' pile now. The problem, as others have intimated, is who else is there? The other Yorkshire opener Lees is highly regarded but is young and hasn't been as good this year as last. Hales is a great T20 opener, but questions remain about his quality in the longer format games. Anyone else shining in the County Championship?

Spin options - Moeen and Rashid are obviously in, but I would be a strong advocate of having someone (Tredwell?) who can control an end. The question then is with the balance of the side - if Ali and Rashid are the primary spinners we can go with 3 specialist seamers + Stokes, but if Tredwell is in for Rashid or Ali do we need a second seamer / all-rounder (Woakes?) to keep the batting depth?

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 3:57 pm

Gooseberry : I really can't argue with any of the points you raised above. And I do share your reservations about Hales .

I notice however you don't offer a solution either Smile

I guess there is more than an element of hope about my championing Hales . Though in fairness he hasn't had a sustained run of ODIs yet ; even so I'd expected more.
It may seem counter-intuitive ; but I wonder if a combination of his ability to play aggressively (as in t20) with less need to hurry early in his innings might actually enable him to have more success in Tests than the fifty over game ... but perhaps I'm just rambling...
It is late. I will think some more on it and return .

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 4:57 pm

Its the usual no right answer only wrong ones isnt it.

Compton is the other one youd look at. His exile was as much to do with a misunderstading over a injury and the resultant falling out with the selectors as issues with his play, which i hindsight wast as ad as people thought at the time. That noone is prompting the media with his name though suggests hes still on the Poopie list.


Bayliss meawhile has Backed Bell


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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Fri 28 Aug 2015, 10:55 am

And Bell is not retiring

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

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