England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

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England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 6:00 pm

First topic message reminder :

Good afternoon all.

I accept this is a bit premature with the 5th Ashes test and ODI series still to come. However with 3 tests against Pakistan and a further 4 against South Africa to follow before the end of January I thought I would start a thread to discuss possible squad changes and team selection for these coming tours.

Due to the vast difference in conditions with which the side will be faced by in each of the series the squad selection will be more pertinent than usual.

In the UAE we will need 3 spinners in the squad. With two guaranteed to be Moeen and Rashid that leaves space for a bolter. With no real standouts there are plenty of names being thrown around with Tredwell, Riley, Panesar, Ansari, Borthwick and even 18 year Mason Crane being touted as possibilities. (I think I will politely pass over Corporals suggestion of Gary Keedy Wink )

In short we very much need a third spinner to throw their hand up. Running through the options listed above:

Tredwell - He has displaced Riley from the Kent CC side and would offer a solid pair of hands if we wanted a more controlling option next to Rashid or Ali.

Riley - He has really struggled this season and has now not played for Kents first XI in 6 weeks. Rumours abound that his action was remodelled over the winter. I'm not sure how substantiated this however.

Panesar - Only just returned to the Essex side and is a suggestion of hope rather than expectation really. I'd love to believe he could put his recent issues behind him and find his old form as of all our spinners available he has the most pedigree, at his best, by a distance. I very much struggle to believe that he will however.

Ansari - A slow left armer who has been much improved with the ball this season. His returns are still more solid than spectacular with 39 wickets at 32.4 runs apiece in division 2. He is however a very good all round cricket who is rated highly by the England selectors and coaches. He bats anywhere in the order but vitally given our struggle for openers, and talk of Ali opening, he has opened the batting well for Surrey. A good bet for the squad in the UAE given he would offer versatility and another option at the top.

Borthwick - 116 overs bowled for 9 wickets at an average of 57 in CC cricket this season. It looks like he will need a change of county if he truly still wishes to be a spinner. He has batted very well from number 3 however with over 900 runs at an averge of 41.

Crane - Only two FC matches into his proffesional career and he's being touted for England selection. That probably sums up our spin problems as well as anything! He looks a real talent at he can turn the ball big and give it some air. We've been here with leg spinners before however.

Beyond this obvious problem there is also the question of opening batsmen and reserve batsmen, wicket keeper and seamers.

If Lyth remains we will still need a 3rd opening batsmen in the squad as reserve. If he goes then we could even need a couple. There are talks of Ali opening in the UAE where his struggles against the short ball shouldn't be exposed as brutally. Can Alex Hales find the consistency needed in test cricket? Has Nick Compton burnt his bridges? Daryl Mitchell and Rory Burns are also scoring strongly at the top of the order for their counties.

In the middle order James Taylor is coming back to form at a good time. Gary Ballance also won't be too far away I imagine. Steve Davies and Jason Roy are scoring strongly in division 2. Sam Hain is a huge talent but it is probably a winter too soon.

With question marks over Butler as a test batsmen and Bairstow as a wicket keeper, Chris Read hasn't chosen a bad season to average over 60 with the bat. If we wanted the option of an excellent gloveman for difficult keeping conditions in the UAE and also an experienced head for a tough winter then he wouldn't be a bad option in the short term.

Anderson, Broad, Wood and Finn, with Stokes supporting, are now obviously going to tour. However with Anderson injured, Broad prone to fatigue and Wood prone to injury we will need the right players in the squad behind them. In South Africa especially this will be vital.

Plunkett and Footit being called up as cover for Anderson must have a foot in the door. Chris Woakes is back playing as well. In division 1 Craig Overton, Jack Brooks, Jack Shantry, James Harris and the ever impressive Chris Rushworth are having strong seasons.

Guaranteed for the UAE tour squad - Cook, Bell, Root, Bairstow, Butler, Stokes, Ali, Rashid, Broad, Wood, Anderson, Finn.

By my logic that leaves 2 openers, a middle order batsmen, a 3rd spinner and at least one more seamer still required.

If Ali (and possibly Ansari) are considered as openers then probably only one spot up for grabs at the top of the order but possibly another middle order batsmen in with a shot?


Last edited by king_carlos on Fri 14 Aug 2015, 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by KP_fan on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:20 pm

guildfordbat wrote: Not surprising and probably why very few front line bowlers in the history of the game have opened the batting.

Perhaps a digression....Vinoo Mankad has been one of the few, quite successful
Shastri and Prabhakar....moderately so
Roger Binny.....very successful in Ranji trophy

suprisingly all Indians Shocked
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:27 pm

Olly wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

Because of course what division you play in decides how good a player you are.....

No but having only played at that level ( which is frankly a joke) its hard to know how good someone is or if they can stand up to proper bowling. Even division 1 is a big step down, and the gulf between D1 and 2 has grown.
Its only really this season and to some extent last thats hes broken through as anything mroe than a bit part player even at that level, and ahe still averages only 31 with the bat in first class. Frankly his record is barely adequate as an opener in Div 2 let alone test level ( Rob Key has averaged more than him this year, maybe they should recognise his amazing season and recall him) . If hes being considered at all it must be as cover for Ali/Rashid in the spin all rounder category.

Hales to is a huge risk, given how awful hes ODI form has been.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:31 pm

KP_fan wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:    Not surprising and probably why very few front line bowlers in the history of the game have opened the batting.

Perhaps a digression....Vinoo Mankad has been one of the few, quite successful
Shastri and Prabhakar....moderately so
Roger Binny.....very successful in Ranji trophy

suprisingly all Indians Shocked

KP_fan - fair enough. Very, very few though in the English game, even at county level.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:35 pm

Trevor Bailey combined opening the batting with the fifth bowler role towards the end of his Test career. But yes , not many.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:37 pm

Gooseberry wrote:
Olly wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

Because of course what division you play in decides how good a player you are.....

No but having only played at that level ( which is frankly a joke) its hard to know how good someone is or if they can stand up to proper bowling. Even division 1 is a big step down, and the gulf between D1 and 2 has grown.
Its only really this season and to some extent last thats hes broken through as anything mroe than a bit part player even at that level, and ahe still averages only 31 with the bat in first class. Frankly his record is barely adequate as an opener in Div 2 let alone test level ( Rob Key has averaged more than him this year, maybe they should recognise his amazing season and recall him) . If hes being considered at all it must be as cover for Ali/Rashid in the spin all rounder category.

Hales to is a huge risk, given how awful hes ODI form has been.

Oh yes Zaf himself has said he's not ready to open in tests - but he's gotten better this season and deserves a shot if he gets a chance (he's behind Rashid imo tho)

Tbh I don't think county cricket whatever division is a great indicator of who can step up or not.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by VTR on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:39 pm

So what is Ansari's bowling actually like? Does he turn it a lot, flight, dip etc?

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by NickisBHAFC on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:42 pm

Olly wrote:
NickisBHAFC wrote:Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

Because of course what division you play in decides how good a player you are.....

He sux

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Stella on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:52 pm

Ansari will be there for cover, so I wouldn't worry too much about how well he bats on division 2.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:56 pm

VTR wrote:So what is Ansari's bowling actually like? Does he turn it a lot, flight, dip etc?

I'd say he's a spinner who really can bowl it into the pitch (bowls around 55/56mph stock delivery) - so if it's spinning he will get turn. He's a canny bowler, very clever young lad understands the game. Wouldn't say he gets great dip from what I've seen.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:52 pm

Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:So what is Ansari's bowling actually like? Does he turn it a lot, flight, dip etc?

I'd say he's a spinner who really can bowl it into the pitch (bowls around 55/56mph stock delivery) - so if it's spinning he will get turn. He's a canny bowler, very clever young lad understands the game. Wouldn't say he gets great dip from what I've seen.

I would add that some of Ansari's character (which I for one like) comes out in his bowling. Not dissimilar to his batting, he's unruffled and patient. If you judge him as a bowler on just one pretty typical ball, you probably won't find that much to write home about. However, I would urge those of you prepared to swallow my hype to judge him over a fairly lengthy spell if he gets that opportunity this winter. In an old fashioned way (again like the style of his batting), he particularly seeks to build pressure and get victims that way.

Olly is right about him being clever and understanding the game. There's a strong feeling at the Oval that he'll be a future Surrey captain. Even if we're going to hype you guys about him, we're not going to do it to ourselves.

As a bit of an aside, he's also a very fine fielder and especially keeps the runs down around the boundary.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:54 pm

Yep I think we are all on the same page regarding Zaf, hes likely to bat down the order and is selected as cover/developmen/drinks carrier/maybe actually getting a game in 5 years ...by which time Rashid might have 2 caps.

I cant help thinking 2 things:
Firstly would he have got more from going on a Lions tour? Its worth noting Kerrigan is on that as part of his ongoing rebuild.
Is he right now one of the best 3 or 4 spin bolwers available? Im not convinced. Ali arguably isnt either. Rashid possibly but is utterly unproven at test level and barely keeping his head above water in the ODIs. Whilst it makes a nice change to go into a series with 3 very different spinners (plus root) I cant help feeling none of them demand a place in the squad on their bowling alone, well possibly Rashid. If its anything like last time then they will need control as well as the miracle balls, and I dont think any of the three really offer that.


As for openers, ist a lot of faith to put in Hales. If it falls to Ali that would be a leap from 8. I dont see either as being up to the task in SA even if they could fair well in a country that offers little for upfront seamers.
Have to feel for Compton, it seems to be a particular selector hes riled.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:08 pm

Gooseberry wrote:Yep I think we are all on the same page regarding Zaf, hes likely to bat down the order and is selected as cover/developmen/drinks carrier/maybe actually getting a game in 5 years ...by which time Rashid might have 2 caps.

I cant help thinking 2 things:
Firstly would he have got more from going on a Lions tour? Its worth noting Kerrigan is on that as part of his ongoing rebuild.
Is he right now one of the best 3 or 4 spin bolwers available? Im not convinced. Ali arguably isnt either. Rashid possibly but is utterly unproven at test level and barely keeping his head above water in the ODIs. Whilst it makes a nice change to go into a series with 3 very different spinners (plus root) I cant help feeling none of them demand a place in the squad on their bowling alone, well possibly Rashid. If its anything like last time then they will need control as well as the miracle balls, and I dont think any of the three really offer that.

Gooseberry - it's fair enough pointing out the uncertainties / limitations attached to all three spin bowling all rounders selected for the tour. But equally pertinent is the point that there are few alternatives spinners making any sort of strong case for selection.  There is noone of the calibre of Panesar (when he was at his best). Would it have been better to select, say, Kerrigan or Tredwell or Riley, or even another Surrey stalwart Gareth Batty. I guess a case could be mounted for eg Tredwell but it is hardly overwhelming.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:13 pm

Good post, Corporal.

In particular, those from the Brighton area need to do better than say Ansari ''sux'' and instead come up with some alternatives. Luke Wright is certainly not one here.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by SimonofSurrey on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:19 pm

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that England might go into a UAE-based Test with 3 spinners. Since Mooen, Adil Rashid and Zafer all can hold a bat (and more), we shouldn't need to worry about a long tail if we play them all. Those three plus Buttler, four other frontline batsmen, Stokes and two other seamers could work. Indeed, it looks a pretty good line up to me: six frontline bowling options including four genuine all rounders, and expectations of runs down to number nine at least.

(PS: guildfordbat, don't worry about you know who from the seaside. As I said earlier, not very good wumming seems to be how he gets his kix. Ignore, move on).

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:19 pm

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

Gooseberry - it's fair enough pointing out the uncertainties / limitations attached to all three spin bowling all rounders selected for the tour. But equally pertinent is the point that there are few alternatives spinners making any sort of strong case for selection.  There is noone of the calibre of Panesar (when he was at his best). Would it have been better to select, say, Kerrigan or Tredwell or Riley, or even another Surrey stalwart Gareth Batty. I guess a case could be mounted for eg Tredwell but it is hardly overwhelming.

Meanwhile, it has just been announced that Monty Panesar has been released by Essex. He is 33, an age when a bowler of his type should be around his peak. Very sad.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by NickisBHAFC on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:29 pm

Olly wrote:
VTR wrote:So what is Ansari's bowling actually like? Does he turn it a lot, flight, dip etc?

I'd say he's a spinner who really can bowl it into the pitch (bowls around 55/56mph stock delivery) - so if it's spinning he will get turn. He's a canny bowler, very clever young lad understands the game. Wouldn't say he gets great dip from what I've seen.

In other words he isn't very good

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:45 pm

And bye bye Nick
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:47 pm

Afternoon all,

Contrary to the complaints many I've spoken and a few posters here have expressed I actually think it is a good looking squad. It is by no means perfect but we all knew that was going to be the case given our lack of standout options in certain places.

The Ansari discussion seems to have been done to death a bit already but to add my summary:

- On the issue of whether he would have been better on a Lions tour. In an ideal world yes. We would have a senior spinner such as Panesar or Tredwell sticking their hand up to complement Ali and Rashid. Unfortunately we don't have that though. We will definitely want two spinners playing in the UAE so had we only travelled with Moeen and Dilly then we would have been very vulnerable to injuries. Hence Zaf has been picked.

- To those worried about his bowling. There is a complete lack of other options performing considerably better over the course of the season to demand selection. He is also an option who could complement Moeen or Dilly well given he could play more of a holding role allowing them to attack from the other end with less fear of going for a few.

- To those worried about his batting, firstly if he plays it will likely be slotting in at 8. Secondly, whilst he isn't the finished product, he needs to develop an ability to go through the gears and convert starts into match defining innings. He does have the basics that many young batsmen now lack. In that I mean he has an excellent awareness of his off stump and he judges and utilises the leave extremely well - it is still the most important shot in test cricket.

Otherwise I am very happy to see Taylor given a chance in the test squad and the seamers are as expected. Perhaps Footit could have offered a differing option instead of Plunkett but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Personally I am a Hales skeptic but he has scored enough to deserve a shot in what has been a poor CC season for opening batsmen. There are exceptions, but with the majority of batsmen their first class career tends the foreshadow their test one. Therein I expect that if given a chance Hales will be intermittently brilliants but lacking the consistency needed for a test level opener. Averages are only going up and a first class average below 40 tends not to herald great things for a test opener.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by SimonofSurrey on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:52 pm

Ansari is a clever bowler who doesn't appear to do much but has very subtle variations on flight, length and speed of delivery. He's a thinking bowler who makes full use of his intellignece and variety to good effect. From what I've seen of him this season, I'd say he does get good dip - I've often thought mid-flight 'this is asking to get hit' only to see the batsman change his mind and defend at the last. And he's had a fair few caught around the bat, too, which suggests he also gets more turn than is always apparent.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Mat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:10 pm

Looks a decent squad to me. Ansari's selection is probably a combination of both his form this season and the lack of any viable alternatives. He is a slow left armer isn't he? Gives us another bit of variety in the attack.

Can't see him getting much game time as he is definitely the third spinner but will be good experience. Think the only thing is he probably couldn't bat down the order, so if he did come in, he'd have to be higher up in the order. I've not seen him in the flesh, but looking at scorecards, he seems quite a slow scorer? As a batsman being played lower down, think you have to be a bit more of a stroke-maker/hitter like Moeen.


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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:11 pm

RE: LIONS.

I haven't seen any details of the players for the Lions squad. Is that still to be announced? If so, anyone know when? Thanks.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Hoggy_Bear on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:17 pm

Don't know why England continue to pick Woakes in the ODI squad (clue, he's not great in one-day games), but not in the test squad (clue, his FC record is much better than his List A one)

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by SimonofSurrey on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:32 pm

Mat wrote:Looks a decent squad to me. Ansari's selection is probably a combination of both his form this season and the lack of any viable alternatives. He is a slow left armer isn't he? Gives us another bit of variety in the attack.

...looking at scorecards, he seems quite a slow scorer? As a batsman being played lower down, think you have to be a bit more of a stroke-maker/hitter like Moeen.


There are two Zafs. The CC2 one opens and tends to be the player around whom others play - Surrey have an aggressive top/middle order, with eg Davies, Sanga, Roy and Wilson. The one day player, however, usually comes in around 6-8 and regularly makes 20s to 40s towards the end of the innings at a run a ball or better. Coming in at 8 or 9 in the Test side he could keep an end up to support a frontline batsman at the other end, or take the game to the oppo a la Moeen if quick runs were needed or he looked like running out of partners. As a one day bowler, it's worth noting he had the best economy rate of anyone on either side in the recent Surrey/Notts RLODC semi (match aggregate 598 runs in 100 overs), and didn't concede a boundary in his first eight overs or so. He's not the finished article, but has no glaring weaknesses.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:40 pm

SimonofSurrey wrote:
Mat wrote:Looks a decent squad to me. Ansari's selection is probably a combination of both his form this season and the lack of any viable alternatives. He is a slow left armer isn't he? Gives us another bit of variety in the attack.

...looking at scorecards, he seems quite a slow scorer? As a batsman being played lower down, think you have to be a bit more of a stroke-maker/hitter like Moeen.


There are two Zafs. The CC2 one opens and tends to be the player around whom others play - Surrey have an aggressive top/middle order, with eg Davies, Sanga, Roy and Wilson. The one day player, however, usually comes in around 6-8 and regularly makes 20s to 40s towards the end of the innings at a run a ball or better. Coming in at 8 or 9 in the Test side he could keep an end up to support a frontline batsman at the other end, or take the game to the oppo a la Moeen if quick runs were needed or he looked like running out of partners. As a one day bowler, it's worth noting he had the best economy rate of anyone on either side in the recent Surrey/Notts RLODC semi (match aggregate 598 runs in 100 overs), and didn't concede a boundary in his first eight overs or so. He's not the finished article, but has no glaring weaknesses.    

I think it only fair to warn non-Surrey supporters that there are also two Currans and you should prepare for some perpetual hype there in the near future. Wink

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 6:25 pm

It's a game of ups and downs for sure as Ansari ends the day in hospital after injuring his hand attempting a catch at Old Trafford.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 6:58 pm

Ouch, hopefully not too bad.

Re the squads:

Can be few quibbles about the Test squad - except I feel it is maybe one person too large. Spending all your time carrying drinks can be soul destroying.

As to the two limited overs squads - I just worry about the bowling and the wicket taking ability. May not matter so much in UAE where old style containment may be the way to go, but certainly the batting looks far stronger than the bowling. For me Woakes and Plunkett are notr good enough - but there is not really anyone smashing at the door with performances that demand inclusion. It may be climate driven, but I look at Australia's young quicks with a lot of envy.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by msp83 on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 7:03 pm

An interesting squad. Zafar Ansari and Alex Hales.......
Ansari's
overall batting record is mediocre for a test selection, particularly for a top side like England. For all his perceived stickability, he averages only 31 in FC cricket in division 2 and his hundreds aren't really big ones. Even Rashid, who has played a lot of division 1 cricket has a better average than Ansari's. If they selected him based on the bowling, of course his bowling seems to be improving, and a bowling average of 35 isn't bad for an English spinning all-rounder who's primary strength is his batting. But from what I've read here, he's not much of a turn/flight type spinner, and not even averaging 2 wickets a game. However, as others have already pointed out, the spin bowling options aren't great as far as England are concern, Rashid is a proper frontline spinner, and the only other frontline spinner with proven international class is Panesar who seems to be lost to international cricket for good, so no chance of going back to him....... However, think Ansari would have been a better pick in the Lions squad rather than the test side at this stage of his development. There is no point picking a spinner for the sake of it, they anyways has Joe Root who is one of the better parttime spinners in the world at the moment. So in case Ali or Rashid would have needed some injury cover, they could have gone in with the additional seamer or batsman and get Root to front up with the ball for a game or 2.
As for Alex Hales, I must say I have my doubts. His technique isn't great to start with, but I have even more doubts about his temperament for the longer format. England perceive him as their answer to Sehwag and Warner, but as KPF said above, not sure about that.
The fact that they have stubbornly refused to pick Nick Compton despite the continuing crisis at the top suggests that the relics of the old regime haven't quite gone away.
The rest of the squad pick themselves and there is not much to argue about Plunkett's selection as the fast bowling cover, or Taylor's selection as batting cover.
Ansari, I can understand his selection though I'd have him in the A team at best, Hales I wouldn't have picked really, would have opted for Compton....... But not much to argue about beyond that.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by msp83 on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 7:39 pm

As for openers, think I'll give Ali a good run at the top including in South Africa with a licence to attack. If he comes off thrice in 10 innings, think I would take that. Unlike Hales, Ali can then offer a valuable additional spin option. They can play Rashid at 8 as the frontline spinner, 3 seamers and Stokes the fast bowling all-rounder....... They aren't Trusting Compton, There are not many who are putting up their hands with demanding performances. This seems to be the least risky option in my view.
Cook,
Ali
Bell? (would have Taylor in there myself)
Root
Another batsman, Ballance? Taylor? Bairstow? (Would have Ballance in there personally.)
Stokes
Buttler
Rashid
Broad
Finn/Wood
Anderson

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by KP_fan on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 7:42 pm

msp wrote:Ansari's
overall batting record is mediocre for a test selection, particularly for a top side like England. For all his perceived stickability, he averages only 31 in FC cricket in division 2 and his hundreds aren't really big ones. Even Rashid, who has played a lot of division 1 cricket has a better average than Ansari's. If they selected him based on the bowling, of course his bowling seems to be improving, and a bowling average of 35 isn't bad for an English spinning all-rounder who's primary strength is his batting. But from what I've read here, he's not much of a turn/flight type spinner, and not even averaging 2 wickets a game. However, as others have already pointed out, the spin bowling options aren't great as far as England are concern

msp so you see India ain't the only side picking allrounder's like Binny..

Binny has a better FC record( than ansari)  and that too in Elite A group....a lot of top performances coming Ranji QF, semis and finals and Irani games...

you are willing to consider Ansari's recent good record.....but not Binny's good record in the last season or two.

you are willing to accept ansaris's mediocre record given the pitches in Eng and Eng's general limited choices.
but not willing to consider that Binny bowls on Indian pitches and Ind has general limitations in all rounders who can bow seam up

consistency in standards msp eh ?  Shocked

my apologies to others for this one on one with msp
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 8:12 pm

msp83 wrote:An interesting squad. Zafar Ansari and Alex Hales.......
Ansari's
overall batting record is mediocre for a test selection, particularly for a top side like England. For all his perceived stickability, he averages only 31  in FC cricket in division 2 and his hundreds aren't really big ones. Even Rashid, who has played a lot of division 1 cricket has a better average than Ansari's. If they selected him based on the bowling, of course his bowling seems to be improving, and a bowling average of 35 isn't bad for an English spinning all-rounder who's primary strength is his batting. But from what I've read here, he's not much of a turn/flight type spinner, and not even averaging 2 wickets a game. However, as others have already pointed out, the spin bowling options aren't great as far as England are concern, Rashid is a proper frontline spinner, and the only other frontline spinner with proven international class is Panesar who seems to be lost to international cricket for good, so no chance of going back to him....... However, think Ansari would have been a better pick in the Lions squad rather than the test side at this stage of his development. There is no point picking a spinner for the sake of it, they anyways has Joe Root who is one of the better parttime spinners in the world at the moment. So in case Ali or Rashid would have needed some injury cover, they could have gone in with the additional seamer or batsman and get Root to front up with the ball for a game or 2.
As for Alex Hales, I must say I have my doubts. His technique isn't great to start with, but I have even more doubts about his temperament for the longer format. England perceive him as their answer to Sehwag and Warner, but as KPF said above, not sure about that.
The fact that they have stubbornly refused to pick Nick Compton despite the continuing crisis at the top suggests that the relics of the old regime haven't quite gone away.
The rest of the squad pick themselves and there is not much to argue about Plunkett's selection as the fast bowling cover, or Taylor's selection as batting cover.
Ansari, I can understand his selection though I'd have him in the A team at best, Hales I wouldn't have picked really, would have opted for Compton....... But not much to argue about beyond that.

Msp - in case you didn't see my earlier post, Monty Panesar was released today by his latest county Essex. A sad situation.

As a general point - it applies to comments made by you above about Ansari but also by other posters about other players - I feel that too much can be made about a player's total career stats when he is first picked for an international side. Far more relevant to my mind is his form in the last few months before selection and, then the really difficult bit, whether that form is judged to be going to get better.

On another point, I would normally go along with your view of putting a developing cricketer in the Lions squad to play rather than leaving him on the sidelines when the Test eleven is chosen. However, I believe Ansari is so smart (I've met him inside and outside cricket circles) he'll actually benefit more from being alongside the best cricketers and coaches and listening to them.

Meanwhile, we await news about the extent of Ansari's injury. Alec Stewart was sensibly and understandably awaiting a medical report before offering an opinion earlier this evening but was clearly concerned.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Corporalhumblebucket on Tue 15 Sep 2015, 10:49 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Meanwhile, we await news about the extent of Ansari's injury. Alec Stewart was sensibly and understandably awaiting a medical report before offering an opinion earlier this evening but was clearly concerned.

Surrey tweeted this evening: "Latest on Zafar Ansari is he has a open dislocation of the left thumb and the injury will be reviewed over the next couple of days"

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 8:04 am

msp83 wrote:An interesting squad. Zafar Ansari and Alex Hales.......
Ansari's
overall batting record is mediocre for a test selection, particularly for a top side like England. For all his perceived stickability, he averages only 31 in FC cricket in division 2 and his hundreds aren't really big ones. Even Rashid, who has played a lot of division 1 cricket has a better average than Ansari's. If they selected him based on the bowling, of course his bowling seems to be improving, and a bowling average of 35 isn't bad for an English spinning all-rounder who's primary strength is his batting. But from what I've read here, he's not much of a turn/flight type spinner, and not even averaging 2 wickets a game. However, as others have already pointed out, the spin bowling options aren't great as far as England are concern, Rashid is a proper frontline spinner, and the only other frontline spinner with proven international class is Panesar who seems to be lost to international cricket for good, so no chance of going back to him....... However, think Ansari would have been a better pick in the Lions squad rather than the test side at this stage of his development. There is no point picking a spinner for the sake of it, they anyways has Joe Root who is one of the better parttime spinners in the world at the moment. So in case Ali or Rashid would have needed some injury cover, they could have gone in with the additional seamer or batsman and get Root to front up with the ball for a game or 2.
As for Alex Hales, I must say I have my doubts. His technique isn't great to start with, but I have even more doubts about his temperament for the longer format. England perceive him as their answer to Sehwag and Warner, but as KPF said above, not sure about that.
The fact that they have stubbornly refused to pick Nick Compton despite the continuing crisis at the top suggests that the relics of the old regime haven't quite gone away.
The rest of the squad pick themselves and there is not much to argue about Plunkett's selection as the fast bowling cover, or Taylor's selection as batting cover.
Ansari, I can understand his selection though I'd have him in the A team at best, Hales I wouldn't have picked really, would have opted for Compton....... But not much to argue about beyond that.


Cant argue with any of that.

With Ansari likley to miss out now it will be interesting to see what plan B is. If the best argument for selecting him at all was " theres no viable alternative" then might they just go with two spinners in the squad and accept that they were going ot be given the full run of games anyway?
As the Lions are in UAE at the same time it wouldnt be any issue to call up Kerrigan or whoever at short notice if theres an injury. Again thats why I found it odd theysd gone for Zafari so quickly, I guess someone has a real crush on him.

Its a pity Borthwick has had a rank season.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by alfie on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 12:20 pm

Rotten luck for Ansari ! Might be a bit early to rule him out though...

If he cannot go , they may perhaps settle for a squad of 15 , as Gooseberry suggests.

It is a pity though : there was at least the possibility that England could have fielded a team containing three pace bowlers + three spinners , which still batted down to ten. In fact any chance of winning - or even drawing - in UAE rests on the batsmen mastering the conditions and producing serious runs ; but if they were to succeed in doing so , then a variety of bowling options might help to make up for the lack of a top grade slow bowler.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by KP_fan on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 12:55 pm

A dislocated thumb can be OK in 2 weeks if there were no complications....most likely Ansari will be fit before the start of first test...so they will take him with the squad is my guess
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Stella on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 12:56 pm

KP_fan wrote:A dislocated thumb can be OK in 2 weeks if there were no complications....most likely Ansari will be fit before the start of first test...so they will take him with the squad is my guess

Will he be able to hold the drinks tray, is the question?
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Mat on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 2:37 pm

Not seen any announcement on the lions squad as a whole, but Worcestershire's twitter page has confirmed Joe Clarke and Ross Whiteley are in the Lions squad, with Steve Rhodes going on the tour(it's to the UAE too if anyone didn't know) as an assistant coach.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 4:39 pm

England Lions Twenty20 squad (v Pakistan A):
J Vince (captain) (Hampshire), Z Ansari (Surrey), J Ball (Notts), S Billings (Kent), (wkt), J Clarke (wkt) (Worcs), D Bell-Drummond (Kent), B Foakes (Surrey) (wkt), L Gregory (Somerset), C Jordan (Sussex), D Malan (Middlesex), T Mills (Sussex), S Parry (Lancashire), R Topley (Essex), T Westley (Essex), D Willey (Northants), R Whiteley (Worcs).

England Performance Programme 2015-2016:
Z Ansari, D Briggs (Hampshire), J Clarke, D Bell-Drummond, B Foakes, L Gregory, C Jordan, D Malan, S Parry, T Westley, R Whiteley, J Vince, J Ball, C Miles (Glos), T Mills, C Overton (Somerset), J Overton (Somerset), O Stone (Northants).

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 4:54 pm

Seems fairly bizarre that borthwick isn't included along with Footitt
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 5:03 pm

Footit is predominantly a first class player having only played 12 t20 games with less than inspiring success and only 35 one day games with an economy above 6 an over. Given it is only a t20 squad he wasn't likely to be there.

Borthwick currently doesn't seem to know whether he wants to be a spinner or a batsmen. As the latter he has had success this season but again in CC cricket not t20. As a t20 bowler he has good career stats and had a solid season this year in the blast. Parry had a far better season however so deserves to be ahead of him IMO.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 5:49 pm

No I meant they're not even in the training camp squads Carlos which is strange
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by king_carlos on Wed 16 Sep 2015, 7:57 pm

Ah right, sorry I misunderstood there Olly.

For Borthwick missing out on the performance programme I imagine is again due to uncertainty in whether he is a batsmen or bowler. As a batsmen they may view others to be more promising. As a bowler he isn't earning selection. If he still wishes to be a spinner he will need to move county I think.

For Footit it may be age. The performance programme is aimed at younger up and coming cricketers. At 29 Footit may be viewed as a bit late in his career for a place there. Personally I would have had him in though. Sidebottom showed how much a bowler can add to a test side later in their career even if for a comparably brief period.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Gooseberry on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 8:41 am

Its being only a T20 Lions squad puts things in perspective a bit more.

I guess what is odd then is that there isnt a proper Lions this season, and that England dont really have an opener anywhere. All the eggs seem to be in the Hales basket, more than just a specialist pick for the UAE where he may be able to get away with some extra agression but also for SA and beyond.

Lees who was the next "proper" opener in line hasnt even made the performance squad despite a good showing for the Lions in SA this year. He still fits the bill as young and a development opportunity. I hope this doesnt mean they have foprgetten him altogether even if hes not had a great county season. With Comnpton being rejected again, Bell on the brink of retirement, and Ballance still in the poohouse' England are desperately short of viable options at the top. I guess Vince is a potential 3, but experienced openers? Nope.

In general the performance squad looks pretty bowler heavy and focussed on T20 players.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by msp83 on Thu 17 Sep 2015, 4:28 pm

The comparison between Ansari's and Binny's selection is rather pointless. Ansari is 23, Binny 31, Ansari's father is not the reason he's selected unlike the case with Binny, England really don't have any other frontline spin option selectable at this stage other than Adil Rashid while India have Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Ravindra Jadeja as viable all-rounders, both proven international bowlers, Kumar has proven to be a better bat than Binny at the top level, Jadeja's FC record playing in the top group is far superior to that of Roger's son. Then there is Rishi Dhawan, who has been consistently among the top domestic bowlers in the last 3 seasons and his batting record after playing a lot of his cricket on the demanding track at Dharamshala is better than that of Binny. Parwez Rasool, Akshar Patel and Baba Aparajith are all players with better credentials than that of Binny, they are at least good In one department with an additional 2nd string, and the new kid on the block, Vijay Shankar, while bowling Binny like military medium, seems to know at least to bat a bit!.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by LondonTiger on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:21 pm

Ansari replaced by Samit Patel

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by guildfordbat on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Ansari replaced by Samit Patel

I'm sure there's a bad joke there somewhere but I'll leave others to find it.

Very harsh luck on Ansari but I'm sure he'll take it in his stride - despite being immensely clever he's also got a philosophical and down to earth approach.

I'm not too surprised about Patel getting another chance. I think I posted around a year ago that England seemed reluctant to completely pull the plug on him.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:50 pm

Firstly Zaf Sad gutted for him

Secondly we've seen how the Samit experiment ends, don't see why we'd pick him tbh. Would've rather seen Tredwell tbh
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Stella on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:01 pm

Patel is arguably a better player than Ansari, though he has had a brief chance beforehand, and failed. Ansari has time to get better, and make a claim next summer, depending on how well Rashid and Ali do.
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:27 pm

Patel replacing Ansari? Well that's depressing.

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by KP_fan on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 7:08 pm

Ha Ha....the cupboard is really empty
or is there one seat reserved for the Asian community under some SA like affirmative action policy Very Happy
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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

Post by wisden on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 7:11 pm

Samit isn't a bad shout as a batsman, but not convinced by his bowling in test cricket, really not..

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Re: England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

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