We Go Again! The Premier League thread

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Post by Fernando on Sun 23 Aug 2015, 4:47 pm

First topic message reminder :

Galloway off for Browning due to injury

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Post by Guest on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:26 pm

Giroud Laugh

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:29 pm

Theo on for Giroud

Dootie just spunked himself.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:31 pm

Rossiter on for Lucas

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:35 pm

Gomez booked. He's done well tonight Ok!

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:38 pm

Oxo Cube on for Coq-blocker

That's ballsy.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:40 pm

Srktel nearly equaled Carra's OG record then so close.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:40 pm

Mignolet booked for time wasting.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:42 pm

Don't get the hype with Jordon Ibe at all
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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:42 pm

Has Jordan Ibe given the ball away with every touch?

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Post by lfc91 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:42 pm

Ibe been brutal.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:43 pm

Moreno on for Coutinho

Settling for a point seemingly.

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:51 pm

Cech and Mignolet both outstanding. Both fully deserved there clean sheet.

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Post by Fernando on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:51 pm

FT Arsenal 0-0 Liverpool

A tale of 2 halves. They battered us we battered them

Awful defending all around. 6 home wins in the 1st 30 PL games.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 9:57 pm

Tremendous, high-intensity game. Oliver was superb in allowing the game to maintain a constant flow - terrific refereeing performance.

Arsenal should have bloody won that. Unless Giroud was injured/fatigued, it was a poor decision to substitute him. The Arsenal wide men had little to aim for in the box when he was removed - Theo is not the player you need up front when you're playing against a team defending deep (sorry Theo, I still love you)!

Mignolet and Cech both inspirational. Liverpool's left-back an absolute liability - three yellows in three games? No bloody wonder. Oxlade should also be starting more/getting a lengthier time to impact the game from the bench.

And Coquelin is as crucial to Arsenal this season as Matic was for Chelsea last season; integral at preserving the balance, required in order to control Arsenal's shape and protect their, sometimes, vulnerable defence.

Level in the title-race!

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:04 pm

Thought Gomez did ok actually - especially considering he's a right footed CB playing his first Prem games at LB, which is strange management to say the least.
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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:14 pm

Arsenal yet to score at home this season.

I find that pretty boring.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:16 pm

Olly wrote:Thought Gomez did ok actually - especially considering he's a right footed CB playing his first Prem games at LB, which is strange management to say the least.

Ah that might explain it. And he's only 18 - looks a heck of a lot older.

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Post by lfc91 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:41 pm

Would have took a point before the game, by half time thought we could push on for the win...by the end I was watching through my fingers praying for the whistle! How that ended 0-0 I will never know. Two games in a row now benteke has had a gift of a chance and failed to convert!(the bar vs Bournemouth and a cech stop). Apart from that he's been excellent.

All in all I'm happy with the point. Also, it's the first time this season I have seen us look like a side capable of top 4.(admittedly only for one half...).

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Post by NickisBHAFC on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:49 pm

Gomes has been brilliant. 18 year old playing out of position for a huge football club in his debut season in the premiership.

People to criticise him, is not only harsh but a little strange.

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Post by Duty281 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 10:53 pm

Positionally very poor. Pace is suspect. Made numerous poor clearances, in both games I have seen him in. Hangs on to the ball for too long in some instances. Fails to get forward enough when his team are on the ball, unlike Clyne at the other end.

Not strange at all.

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Post by lfc91 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 11:20 pm

Pace seems just fine. Excellant on the ball for a defender. Although I agree on the positioning comment (although considering he's playing out of position it's not surprising). Several Liverpool players guilty of dwelling on the ball to long tonight. Milner, Ibe and Gomez of the top of my head.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 11:23 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Olly wrote:Thought Gomez did ok actually - especially considering he's a right footed CB playing his first Prem games at LB, which is strange management to say the least.

Ah that might explain it. And he's only 18 - looks a heck of a lot older.

Kids only played 21 games for Charlton before these last three - raw is being kind! Lot of potential to work with there, imo could do with a loan back to the championship to play CB week in week out
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Post by lfc91 on Mon 24 Aug 2015, 11:25 pm

Olly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Olly wrote:Thought Gomez did ok actually - especially considering he's a right footed CB playing his first Prem games at LB, which is strange management to say the least.

Ah that might explain it. And he's only 18 - looks a heck of a lot older.

Kids only played 21 games for Charlton before these last three - raw is being kind! Lot of potential to work with there, imo could do with a loan back to the championship to play CB week in week out

Would agree providing we sign a new left back before the window closes.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:26 am

id say he's been better than Clyne. Really impressed by him.

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 7:31 am

It's a pretty unique situation. Overall I think he has been average with glimpses of quality at times. However, when you take into account his age/position/number of games played he's impressive.

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Post by LivinginItaly on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:51 am

I agree lfc91. Clyne has been consistently effective doing his job in a quiet but efficient way. Whilst Gomez has done some very good things mixed in with lapses of concentration such as needlessly giving the ball away on a number of occasions yesterday. However, my only point of concern regarding him is how obviously reliant he is in his right foot, which makes the left back position a strange managerial choice. I think he will become a very good central defender in time as he gains experience. But for now he looks a better option than Moreno as he offers more defensively.

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 8:58 am

Clyne is the highest scoring member of my Fantasy football team, and in the end that's all that really matters..

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 11:48 am

Also, I feel obligated to say that I think Lovren had a good game. Seeing as I spend the majority of the time highlighting him as a liability/waste of space, it is only fair I give credit when I feel it’s due…

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:14 pm

I think Gomez has been targeted by clubs in what i've seen and its impressive that he looks not even slightly afraid.

Olly, did you say Firmino has shown to be better than Coutinho? Im not sure you can base that on real life football.

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:34 pm

Yeah thought that statement was pretty ridiculous myself Dolphin, that's why I had chose to ignore it. Although if he does turn out to be better than Coutinho we will have a truely outstanding player on our hands!

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Post by Hero on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 12:51 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I think Gomez has been targeted by clubs in what i've seen and its impressive that he looks not even slightly afraid.

Olly, did you say Firmino has shown to be better than Coutinho? Im not sure you can base that on real life football.

Firmino was consistently brilliant for Hoffenheim, 4th highest scorer in the league in 2014 and given 'Breakthrough Player of the Year' in the Bundesliga. Last season he scored another 10 and provided 12 assists in 36 appearances. Coutinho meanwhile got 8 goals and 6 assists in 52 appearances.

The world is not just the Premier League.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:18 pm

Thanks for being extremely condescending their Hero (I'm so surprised a hipster could be such a thing!) but there has been nothing to suggest in his time here, the cameos and the start yesterday, that Firmino is a better Premier League player than either of the two mentioned.

Arguably, the standard is higher across the whole division in the Premier League anyway, but the most relevant point is "better Premier League player." Juan Sebastien Veron's career was grand, but Nicky Butt was a better Premier League player. And as Firmino and Coutinho play for the same club in the Premier League then I think we'll go with that which is most pertinent, shall we? Cool

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Post by Hero on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:28 pm

Olly didn't state better 'Premier League' player.
He stated:

Firminho is twice the player Coutinho/Lallana are


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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:35 pm

But they're playing in the Premier League now, and as such there is no evidence that Firmino is better than either here. And he will be judged on his time here. Especially considering he said it halfway through the Arsenal/Liverpool match, with no context, when all comments were about the game.

Youd have to be digging up for your own point to suggest the missing words in that post were "based on his time with Hoffenheim."

Possibly also worth questioning whether Hoffenheim's performance was impressive as Southampton's 8th place finish in 2014, in which Lallana was probably their best player and scored 9 goals in a better standard league.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:36 pm

Although my main problem with this is the "the world is not just the Premier League" part which was a d*ck move Mr Carr!

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Post by Trebs on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:45 pm

Great game last night, a draw the fair result I feel. Both teams had a half each where they were the better side. Great goalkeeping from Petr Cech, and I was also impressed with Gabriel in the Arsenal defense.

Firmino and Coutinho both play in the Brazil side together. There Firmino has proved to be the better player. Firmino needs time to adapt to the Premier League but I fully expect him to do so and justify his transfer fee.

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 1:56 pm

The way I look at it, if I could only play one in the next game, that one is Coutinho. Simple. Firmino may well go on to be a better player (Here's hoping) but right now in terms of Liverpool and the premier league Coutinho is the better player.

As I say though that could all change as Firmino settles in.

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Post by Hero on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:29 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:But they're playing in the Premier League now, and as such there is no evidence that Firmino is better than either here. And he will be judged on his time here. Especially considering he said it halfway through the Arsenal/Liverpool match, with no context, when all comments were about the game.

Youd have to be digging up for your own point to suggest the missing words in that post were "based on his time with Hoffenheim."

Possibly also worth questioning whether Hoffenheim's performance was impressive as Southampton's 8th place finish in 2014, in which Lallana was probably their best player and scored 9 goals in a better standard league.

Coutinho also played in a worse standard league in Italy and was that pish poor he was loaned out before sold.
You're judging Firmino based upon 93 minutes in 3 games in the Premier League, I'm basing it on both players performances over the course of the last 2 seasons to which Firmino stands heads and shoulders above Coutinho and most certainly Lallana.

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Post by Guest on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:44 pm

No point posting stats, it's how they're performing right now. Why bring up the Inter/Hoffenheim comparison, which clearly is a bias towards your opinion, seeing as Coutinho bombed in Italy. Firminho was 22 last year, Coutinho joined Inter as a teenager from Vasco & had to adapt to Europe. The whole Inter side bombed the year he joined because Benitez was in charge after Mourinho & he played him out-wide, instead of centrally. It's a pointless comparison really.

As of right now, Coutinho is Liverpool's best performer, that is quite clear. We wait until Firminho is fully fit, then you make the comparison. To say he is twice the player of Coutinho, judged on stats from an inferior league, is puzzling stuff. Also, Olly stated if Coutinho was any good, he'd be at a top 4 club. Well then why is he now saying Firminho is twice the player of Coutinho, yet he ended up at Liverpool too. I think that says something about Firminho's level & why no champions league side touched him this summer.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 2:45 pm

I'd say head and shoulders was very strong. Lallana was fantastic at Southampton in a side that would have expected far more problems in the Premier League than Hoffenheim in the Bundesliga. And Coutinho has performed at a strong level in a much stronger league.

Coutinho was playing for Inter whilst Firmino was performing alright at Figueirense. His struggles at Inter are probably still more of a success at his age than Firmino not really pulling up trees back home. To the point that most Brazilians are not actually that well versed on how good he might be because he only showed it whilst playing in Germany.

I am happy to judge Firminho on his 93 minutes in a conversation around the context of his performance in the Premier League. I cannot judge his performance in the Premier League based on his time in Germany.

This is not to suggest Firmino will not be a success in England, and whilst I do think Coutinho is a little overrated I think Firmino is going to have to play very well to match Coutinho's impact on the Liverpool side. So far in those 93 minutes Firmino has pretty much shown nothing, and hes lucky that his competition, the young Ibe, has also not shown the flashes he has done in cameos before.

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Post by Alistair on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:05 pm

It certainly opens the debate for how well we can judge International leagues compared to the Prem.

There have been plenty of examples of people who have succeeded in foreign leagues, only to fail in the Premier League.

Dolphin makes a good point, you can't make equal comparisons unless they play on an equal footing and that won't be until the end of this season.

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Post by Trebs on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:06 pm

I can agree that if i had to pick one or the other tomorrow for a match, then i would take the safer option with Coutinho. But, I think Coutinho is certainly overrated, hes had a few very good games but did not, for instance, deserve to be in the running for player of the season.

Firmino is an outstanding talent and to call the Bundesliga a weak league is laughable. Look at their Champions League and Europa league form for one, probably second behind Spain and certainly ahead of England. It is too early to judge Firmino on his premier league form, but what he did internationally and in the Bundesliga was excellent as he is a big talent.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:11 pm

Trebs wrote:I can agree that if i had to pick one or the other tomorrow for a match, then i would take the safer option with Coutinho. But, I think Coutinho is certainly overrated, hes had a few very good games but did not, for instance, deserve to be in the running for player of the season.

Firmino is an outstanding talent and to call the Bundesliga a weak league is laughable. Look at their Champions League and Europa league form for one, probably second behind Spain and certainly ahead of England. It is too early to judge Firmino on his premier league form, but what he did internationally and in the Bundesliga was excellent as he is a big talent.

If I wrote, or suggested it was weak, I didn't mean it as such, but their depth of teams, as is true with a lot of leagues in my opinion, doesn't match the Premier League. The depth combined with the lack of winter break makes it the hardest league to play in, in my opinion.

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Post by Alistair on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:20 pm

Coutinho has scored a few stunners, but his goals/assists ratio isn't amazing, it's no better than Raheem Sterlings and he went for £50m, i don't see people banging down the door to sign Phillipe?

He's a talented player, of that there is no doubt, but his ability to get stuck in, taking games by the scruff of the neck is yet to be confirmed. Eventually players will stop affording him the space to hit one.

Last night he didn't stand out. When he received the ball centrally he was always looking for the slide rule pass to Benteke, that's not exactly world class. It's predictable.

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Post by Fernando on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:30 pm

Firmino is not a winger and if keeps playing there he's gunna flop due to Brendan's incompetence.

Most of Coutinho goals have been from cutting in off the left so put him there and put Firmino in the place he's most effective.


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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:44 pm

Sterling was sought after/valued at that for the simple reason that he is young and English. Automatically doubles/triples your value to a premier league team.

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Post by Alistair on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 3:52 pm

I would argue that his Nationality ramps up the price, but is he any better than Coutinho, in this sense?

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Post by Fernando on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:04 pm

If you said Coutinho & Sterling were both foreigners or english id still take Raheem tbh. You can fit Raheem anywhere, Coutinho is built around at Liverpool since Gerrard went.

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Post by lfc91 on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 4:22 pm

Not much in it though. Sterling great out wide and capable behind the striker, vice versa for coutinho. Sterling obviously younger which is a positive.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Tue 25 Aug 2015, 5:23 pm

To be honest, different teams have different needs. I'd take Coutinho if I was Mourinho, but Sterling at City. City needed Sterling for his pace and ability to stretch play more, although him being English was worth about £20-25m of it too.

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