Park 51 - Should a mosque be allowed to be built two blocks from Ground Zero ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:00 pm

Certainly a controversial issue back home on whether a 13 storey building should be built in the name of Islam close to the tragedy.....

Why it shouldn't be built arguments
----------------------------------------

1. Insensitivity...............Maybe the Terrorists weren't representative of the majority of muslims. But they were associated with a form of Islamic ideology.

2. Majority....................The majority of New Yorkers oppose the plans.....

3. Triumphalism............There are those... and there will be some that will view planting a mosque right by Ground zero as some form of victory..

4. Provocation..............Let's be honest it's provocative... and assaults on the asian community have increased dramatically in the years following the tragedy.

Why it should be built
---------------------------

1. View..............Park 51 won't be visible from Ground zero.

2. Penalised....... Why should good, peaceful muslims suffer from a minority of bad apples..

3. Education.......Perhaps it will make some New Yorkers more informed about the religion and hopefully breed tolerance...

4. Move on.........Time to maybe put the past behind us....

5. Put more money back into the local economy..

Park 51 is a tough one..

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:18 pm

Most of me thinks that if planning etc is OK, it should be allowed to go ahead. I can understand families of victims etc having qualms but not allowing it simply for those reasons will be interpreted by muslims as having only one source - discrimination based on creed alone. If the U.S. practicers what it preaches, it should allow it to go ahead and be above what the radicals claim for it. It could be a beacon for religious understanding and peaceful co-existence but there's only one way to find out...

The other little bit of me thinks that I would seriously dislike the idea.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:32 pm

No! How about building something useful to the advancement of humanity and peaceful co-existence, such as a humanitarian centre?

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Post by rick_dagless on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 12:57 pm

Duty wrote:How about building something useful to the advancement of humanity and peaceful co-existence, such as a humanitarian centre?

That pretty much describes a mosque...

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Post by incontinentia on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:05 pm

No, it might radicalise the moderates. Why would a mosque have 13 stories anyway??
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Post by McLaren on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:07 pm

Build it. Practicing Islam isn't an illegal activity and presumably the building meets local planning and health and safety regulations.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:15 pm

McLaren wrote:Build it.  Practicing Islam isn't an illegal activity and presumably the building meets local planning and health and safety regulations.

9/11 was a terrorist atrocity of epic proportions.......

Wounds are still sore......

Everything you post like your article on "Shameful Britain" seems so simplistic..

The world isn't black and white pal.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:26 pm

I really don't think the specifics of it being a mosque are important. The only reason for saying no to this is if you would also say no to a church etc.

So, yes, it should be allowed. It should be encouraged if you ask me.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:30 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I really don't think the specifics of it being a mosque are important. The only reason for saying no to this is if you would also say no to a church etc.

So, yes, it should be allowed. It should be encouraged if you ask me.

What a load of garbage.......Dear oh dear..

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:32 pm

Do tell, Trussy my gorgeous friend. Debate is often helped by giving reasons for your contrasting opinion.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:33 pm

I don't need to.......Your post is a joke.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:40 pm

Thats a good point, Truss, and you've gone into some fine detail, but not quite enough to have changed my mind

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 1:46 pm

Duty281 wrote:No! How about building something useful to the advancement of humanity and peaceful co-existence, such as a humanitarian centre?

Soho properties have bought the land..... Muslim guy called Sharif - El- Gamal is CEO..

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Post by McLaren on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 2:34 pm

TRUSSMAN66 (again why the full capitals?)


What with the whole church state separation thing that America how could the government (any level, local to state to federal) put a stop to a planning application based on the religious use of the proposed building?

If no illegal activity is going to happen in the building and it meets planning regulations what legal instrument would you use to stops its construction, especially if your only reason against is that it is of a particular religion?

This is not about being simplistic but asking you to propose a mechanism by which you could implement your plan not to build. And remember the Americans kill each other in vast numbers and still won't question the constitution and you are asking them to abandon the separation of church and state.
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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 2:42 pm

McLaren wrote:TRUSSMAN66 (again why the full capitals?)


What with the whole church state separation thing that America how could the government (any level, local to state to federal) put a stop to a planning application based on the religious use of the proposed building?

If no illegal activity is going to happen in the building and it meets planning regulations what legal instrument would you use to stops its construction, especially if your only reason against is that it is of a particular religion?

This is not about being simplistic but asking you to propose a mechanism by which you could implement your plan not to build.  And remember the Americans kill each other in vast numbers and still won't question the constitution and you are asking them to abandon the separation of church and state.

1. 9/11 is a pretty special one off case.....

2. Americans killing eachother every year has nothing to do with an atrocious act aimed at destroying AMERICA itself....

3. New Yorkers who saw billions of dollars of damage to the their community and thousands of loved ones and families destroyed and live everyday with the consequences should have a say....

4. IF I want to use Capitals in my username I will..

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Post by McLaren on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 2:55 pm

Ok, but the capitals thing is odd.

To your points

1. 11/9 is a special case, but I ask again, does this mean that the government would be willing to violate the 1st amendment?

2. A brought up the American insistence on continuing gun ownership to highlight that abandoning the constitution is not something that is likely to happen. Therefore I don't think the mosque would be denied planning based on the fact it is religious.

3. I agree, New Yorkers suffered terrible loses, both psychological and financial. What does this have to do with building a mosque?

4. Fair, enough, just wondered if it was an acronym or something.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:02 pm

Not violating the first amendment..............They are looking into whether it would be better expressed elsewhere.....If I'm an atheist and I don't want it there then you could say it's affecting the right of my people to peacefully assemble..

First amendment is a broad document...

3. Is just plain stupidity mate...


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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:06 pm

I would suggest you're wrong there McLaren, applications for Satanist buildings are denied fairly frequently, the recent Baphomet statue being a good example of that.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:08 pm

It does feel like this is basically coming down to New Yorkers not being able to accept Muslims because of 9/11.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:20 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It does feel like this is basically coming down to New Yorkers not being able to accept Muslims because of 9/11.
Yep. Pretty much. I'd like to think they could be bigger than this. Guess not.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:26 pm

It seems deeply antagonistic to me, to build a place of Islamic worship just two blocks away from one of the worst atrocities of Islamic-motivated terrorism in the twenty-first century.

Why does it have to be built so close to Ground Zero; surely there are other places that a mosque could be built?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:36 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It does feel like this is basically coming down to New Yorkers not being able to accept Muslims because of 9/11.
Yep. Pretty much. I'd like to think they could be bigger than this. Guess not.

Bigger than this ???

Bit of a wally aren't you ??.................When 9/11 hits your City.......See how you feel..

What a joke !!!,.

Just another boring Yank hater..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:42 pm

3,000 + died..........

Thousands injured...

Losses to New york = 95 billion (jobs, taxes, building infrastructure, cleaning etc)

83,000 jobs lost............

Thousands of families destroyed and thousands other people traumatised...

"They should be bigger than this"...

Shut up....

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Post by McLaren on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:43 pm

TRUSSMAN66

Could you just be clear.  Is your argument that no trace of Islam should be detectable in an area (how big, you decide?) surrounding ground zero?
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Post by President Trump on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:46 pm

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:46 pm

I'm not anti-Islam...........I haven't said it shouldn't go ahead...........I'm undecided..

I listed the pros and cons in the header....

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:46 pm

I suppose we should still harbour ill feeling towards Germany for the Blitz and write off our equally shameful retaliation as a necessary evil.

Those who perpetrated 9/11 are as indicative of Muslims as the Nazi party were of Germans in the 30's and 40's.

The world would be a far better place without any religion but to single out Islam because of a few extremists is pathetic.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:48 pm

A few extremists?!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:49 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I suppose we should still harbour ill feeling towards Germany for the Blitz and write off our equally shameful retaliation as a necessary evil.

Those who perpetrated 9/11 are as indicative of Muslims as the Nazi party were of Germans in the 30's and 40's.

No one is arguing that it is indicative.........

Your comparison with Germany is just beyong contempt........

9/11 was a terrorist act in the name of somebody's idea of Islam...........We weren't at war with these guys..

Stick to being ridiculed on the "shameful" thread and don't waste my time..


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:51 pm

Being at War doesn't somehow justify killing civilians.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:51 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Being at War doesn't somehow justify killing civilians.

What are you talking about..

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:04 pm

I can sympathise with the feelings of, I dunno, discomfort? Fear? That surround Muslims and Islam in New York. Although I doubt anyone ever remembers 9/11 and thinks "and all those lost jobs, I just can't get over it." However, I think it would be extremely healthy and show a spirit that rises above extremism if a mosque were to be built near Ground Zero. You would hope it could be a constant reminder to people that extremists committed the atrocity, not the religion of Islam. A message to extremists that America rejects their tainted view on the Western World and on Islamic beliefs.

Instead of scaremongering around people's differences it promotes acceptance and community.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:11 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I can sympathise with the feelings of, I dunno, discomfort? Fear? That surround Muslims and Islam in New York. Although I doubt anyone ever remembers 9/11 and thinks "and all those lost jobs, I just can't get over it." However, I think it would be extremely healthy and show a spirit that rises above extremism if a mosque were to be built near Ground Zero. You would hope it could be a constant reminder to people that extremists committed the atrocity, not the religion of Islam. A message to extremists that America rejects their tainted view on the Western World and on Islamic beliefs.

Instead of scaremongering around people's differences it promotes acceptance and community.

The religion of Islam was the motivating factor for the attacks, though. The promise of martyrdom is the compelling factor for these Islamic extremists.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/11/19/an-arsenal-of-believers

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:18 pm

It's still very raw.................Worst terrorist attack of alltime.

I don't know it's not like WW2 which was 70 years ago....

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:39 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I can sympathise with the feelings of, I dunno, discomfort? Fear? That surround Muslims and Islam in New York. Although I doubt anyone ever remembers 9/11 and thinks "and all those lost jobs, I just can't get over it." However, I think it would be extremely healthy and show a spirit that rises above extremism if a mosque were to be built near Ground Zero. You would hope it could be a constant reminder to people that extremists committed the atrocity, not the religion of Islam. A message to extremists that America rejects their tainted view on the Western World and on Islamic beliefs.

Instead of scaremongering around people's differences it promotes acceptance and community.

The religion of Islam was the motivating factor for the attacks, though. The promise of martyrdom is the compelling factor for these Islamic extremists.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/11/19/an-arsenal-of-believers

Oooooh, an article!

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2015/02/think-muslims-havent-condemned-911-think-again.html

So you suggest the solution to this is to block a move for a mosque nearby? For a place of worship that isn't going to be attended by Islamic extremists. Scaremongering, Doots. For those who are different to us are to be feared.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:45 pm

Seems to me plenty on here are concerned about everybody elses feelings apart from the native New Yorkers....

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:47 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's still very raw.................Worst terrorist attack of all time.

I don't know it's not like WW2 which was 70 years ago....

Yet Jewish people, who were targeted, persecuted, killed inhumanely and over periods of years do not condemn modern Germany. There were soldiers who empathised with the men they were fighting, men who were under the Nazi "flag." I'd kind of get your point if relations with Germany were somewhat strained over here, but I have grown up here not once taught to hold true hostility to the Germans, except when we play football but I have the same hostility for Spurs and Millwall.

Islam, at the very least in the Western world, is a peaceful religion of tolerance. To define 9/11 as a Muslim attack is to completely, and most likely purposefully, misunderstand a religion that condemns 9/11 in the same way any other sane human being does. I think New Yorkers would have the right to feel proud of their city for supporting the building of a mosque. Otherwise, really, you're letting some terrorists win, for they have affected the "land of the free."

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:49 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seems to me plenty on here are concerned about everybody elses feelings apart from the native New Yorkers....

Are you concerned with New Yorkers feelings or your own feelings?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:49 pm

12% are muslim in New York.........How many are native who knows...

But carry on being pedantic...




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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:52 pm

We should ask Odyssey what they think

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 4:54 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seems to me plenty on here are concerned about everybody elses feelings apart from the native New Yorkers....

Are you concerned with New Yorkers feelings or your own feelings?

Can't you go and troll somewhere else..

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 5:06 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I can sympathise with the feelings of, I dunno, discomfort? Fear? That surround Muslims and Islam in New York. Although I doubt anyone ever remembers 9/11 and thinks "and all those lost jobs, I just can't get over it." However, I think it would be extremely healthy and show a spirit that rises above extremism if a mosque were to be built near Ground Zero. You would hope it could be a constant reminder to people that extremists committed the atrocity, not the religion of Islam. A message to extremists that America rejects their tainted view on the Western World and on Islamic beliefs.

Instead of scaremongering around people's differences it promotes acceptance and community.

The religion of Islam was the motivating factor for the attacks, though. The promise of martyrdom is the compelling factor for these Islamic extremists.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2001/11/19/an-arsenal-of-believers

Oooooh, an article!

http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/commonwordcommonlord/2015/02/think-muslims-havent-condemned-911-think-again.html

So you suggest the solution to this is to block a move for a mosque nearby? For a place of worship that isn't going to be attended by Islamic extremists. Scaremongering, Doots. For those who are different to us are to be feared.

What I'm saying is you appeared to be doubting the link between Islam and 9/11, whereas I think one of the main motivating factors for 9/11 was Islam and its promise of martyrdom. The link I posted shows, from the thought process of an attempted suicide bomber, exactly what the thrill and compelling nature of martyrdom is, and how it motivates a certain minority so strongly.

I have never doubted that most Muslims don't condone the atrocities of 9/11, but thank you for the link anyway. Interesting to see the Muslim Brotherhood from Egypt on there! One other thing:

"For those who are different to us are to be feared." A very apt summary there of the three Abrahamic religions of Christianity, Islam and Judaism.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 5:54 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:It does feel like this is basically coming down to New Yorkers not being able to accept Muslims because of 9/11.
Yep. Pretty much. I'd like to think they could be bigger than this. Guess not.

Bigger than this ???

Bit of a wally aren't you ??.................When 9/11 hits your City.......See how you feel..

What a joke !!!,.

Just another boring Yank hater..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:3,000 + died..........

Thousands injured...

Losses to New york = 95 billion (jobs, taxes, building infrastructure, cleaning etc)

83,000 jobs lost............

Thousands of families destroyed and thousands other people traumatised...

"They should be bigger than this"...

Shut up....
Oh do grow up. You make a lot of valid and interesting points in many threads but you just can't take anything the tiniest bit critical can you? I accept all of what you say re. deaths, damage etc but your suggestion re. the response over this proposed mosque is pique at it's finest. "Why should we allow it? Look at what they did! Two wrongs make a right! Oh...."
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Post by navyblueshorts on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 5:57 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I can sympathise with the feelings of, I dunno, discomfort? Fear? That surround Muslims and Islam in New York. Although I doubt anyone ever remembers 9/11 and thinks "and all those lost jobs, I just can't get over it." However, I think it would be extremely healthy and show a spirit that rises above extremism if a mosque were to be built near Ground Zero. You would hope it could be a constant reminder to people that extremists committed the atrocity, not the religion of Islam. A message to extremists that America rejects their tainted view on the Western World and on Islamic beliefs.

Instead of scaremongering around people's differences it promotes acceptance and community.
To coin a religious comment to the above - amen. Current Americans, it would seem, don't have the psyche for this though. Far happier with simple revenge, vendetta and petty one-upmanship.
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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:05 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It's still very raw.................Worst terrorist attack of all time.

I don't know it's not like WW2 which was 70 years ago....

Yet Jewish people, who were targeted, persecuted, killed inhumanely and over periods of years do not condemn modern Germany. There were soldiers who empathised with the men they were fighting, men who were under the Nazi "flag." I'd kind of get your point if relations with Germany were somewhat strained over here, but I have grown up here not once taught to hold true hostility to the Germans, except when we play football but I have the same hostility for Spurs and Millwall.

Islam, at the very least in the Western world, is a peaceful religion of tolerance. To define 9/11 as a Muslim attack is to completely, and most likely purposefully, misunderstand a religion that condemns 9/11 in the same way any other sane human being does. I think New Yorkers would have the right to feel proud of their city for supporting the building of a mosque. Otherwise, really, you're letting some terrorists win, for they have affected the "land of the free."

That is the point I was trying to make in relation to Germany something i'm sure Truss understands but will ignore as it doesn't fit in with his persecution complex. My great grandfather died during the blitz something my grandfather witnessed but because it was during wartime that makes it somehow acceptable. Do I or any of my family hold it against the German nation? There is a stark difference between Germany and the Nazi party just like there is a big difference between Muslims and Islamic Extremists.

Duty, my reference to a 'few' extremists is in comparison to the vast numbers of Muslims there are around the world, 99% of whom i'm sure condone the terrorists acts carried out in the name of religion as much as you and I. Should we then suppress the lawful and peaceful majority because of a fanatical minority? No we shouldn't and a Muslim has a much right to practice his religion in New York as a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or anybody else.

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Post by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:06 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seems to me plenty on here are concerned about everybody elses feelings apart from the native New Yorkers....

Are you concerned with New Yorkers feelings or your own feelings?

Can't you go and troll somewhere else..

The irony, my little Trussel sprout, is not lost on I.

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Post by Duty281 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:19 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Duty, my reference to a 'few' extremists is in comparison to the vast numbers of Muslims there are around the world, 99% of whom i'm sure condone the terrorists acts carried out in the name of religion as much as you and I. Should we then suppress the lawful and peaceful majority because of a fanatical minority? No we shouldn't and a Muslim has a much right to practice his religion in New York as a Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or anybody else.

Of course a Muslim has every right to practice their religion in New York, as well as any other place, but I feel that a mosque being built so close to the site of an Islamic-motivated terror attack is deliberately antagonistic. It isn't like there is a shortage of mosques in New York, or any good reason as to why there should be a mosque a couple of blocks away from Ground Zero.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:40 pm

There's also no good reason why there shouldn't be, 9/11 was horrific beyond belief but you can't counter that by generalising a whole faith.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:47 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Seems to me plenty on here are concerned about everybody elses feelings apart from the native New Yorkers....

Are you concerned with New Yorkers feelings or your own feelings?

Can't you go and troll somewhere else..

The irony, my little Trussel sprout, is not lost on I.

Not interested buddy.....


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 7:53 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : ..)

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 6:49 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:There's also no good reason why there shouldn't be, 9/11 was horrific beyond belief but you can't counter that by generalising a whole faith.

No one has a problem with mosques being built in New York................The problem is to do with the location of this one.......

9/11 is still fresh in the memory especially to New Yorkers who have to live with the aftermath everyday....


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