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Post by raycastleunited on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 2:33 pm

First topic message reminder :

There hasn't been an equipment discussion on here for a long time, so time for an old favourite. I recently bought some new irons from a frend of a friend, barely used Mizuno JPX 825 pro's (4 - PW), and I think I should get some new wedges to go with them. Currently I have Taylormade RAC 54 degree and RAC black 60 degree (bent to 58) wedges, and they are both 10 years old now.

Wedges are all about feel and so can be a very personal thing, but I would be interested to get all your thoughts on things like:
- bounce, particularly why you would want lots of bounce (say more than 12 deg)
- sole grinds, I have no idea how this helps
- advantages of different finishes e.g. black, satin, chrome, oil, rust etc.
- different brands and technology claims, in particular re grooves, and do they make a difference

I'm thinking about getting Mizuno MP-T5 54 and 58 deg wedges, as they seem to match the JPX pro's nicely but I'm not adverse to other brands / styles.

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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 8:41 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:I've no doubt you're right Navy. There's probably little difference, especially at my level.  
But if some of what is written is to be believed maybe they are all universally playing Miura, it just has a Titleist etc stamp on it....
Golf always has been full of (unsubstantiated) rumours though.

SmithersJones wrote:You get so many 'In The Bag' photos now that this seems highly improbable.
Exactly. If I was Miura, I wouldn't want someone playing my gear with someone else's stamp on it either - that would make no sense at all. I doubt, for example, Bob Vokey would want the negative connotations (i.e. Miura makes better gear than my own stuff) associated with what would be the case if someone was playing Miuras with a Vokey stamp on them.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:42 am

Completely unsubstantiated, fully agreed
But it's not necessarily completely bad sense, in that if this guy really does make excellent stuff and some players prefer it that doesn't mean Bob Vokey, and indeed Titleist, wouldn't still want the impression to the world to be that the top players use their clubs. All they're trying to do by endorsing these guys is sell clubs, if putting a Titleist logo on whatever they're using gets the job done.....
Plus if Miura cannot produce the quality he likes on the scale that would be necessary if went down the route of Nike etc, perhaps he's happy taking the money to provide whoever wants it with whatever they want.
I don't know, could be nonsense but it's not a completely unbelievable scenario, who knows!
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:45 am

It's inconceivable that companies with the financial clout of golf club manufacturers can't hire the skills or don't have the technology to build clubs as good as Miura.

This whole "they all use stamped miura" is just conspiracy theory, tin foil hat nonsense.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:48 am

So Nike clubs, clothes, shoes, apparel are the best out there?
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:So Nike clubs, clothes, shoes, apparel are the best out there?

Who said anything about shoes, clothes or other apparel.

THe notion that all these manufacturers can't in the modern day create a wedge (which is just forged metal) perform as well as a small specialist japanese forger is completely absurd.


It's like saying BMW, Audi, Merc and Jag can't make a car as good as a Morgan. Preposterous.


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Post by McLaren on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:01 am

super_realist wrote:It's inconceivable that companies with the financial clout of golf club manufacturers can't hire the skills or don't have the technology to build clubs as good as Miura.

This whole "they all use stamped miura" is just conspiracy theory, tin foil hat nonsense.

Good point super.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:04 am

super_realist wrote:
MustPuttBetter wrote:So Nike clubs, clothes, shoes, apparel are the best out there?

Who said anything about shoes, clothes or other apparel.

I did.
Is it not inconceivable that a company with the financial clout of Nike can't hire the skills or don't have the technology to build clubs, clothes, shoes, apparel, or anything as good as anyone else?

The point i'm trying to make being this can go either one of two ways, either the richest companies always make the best stuff - which I don't think you will agree with - or it is accepted that sometimes the richest companies do not make the best stuff
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:16 am

Nike (to use as an example) sell clothes, shoes etc for profit. It isn't a sector in which there are massive technological advances or benefits to the user.

As much as I'm no fan of Nike for their gaudy design and ghastly clothes, it seems incredible to think they can't make a lump of metal behave and perform as well as anyone else if required for their "athletes".(what they try to sell to the rest of us is irrelevant)

Depending on who you are, sometimes a £10 wedge will work better for you than a £200 Miura. Why would it be the case that most pro's would prefer a Miura?

To expect the tiny range of Miura wedges (or any club) to suit every pro, enough that they all use them is ridiculous.
Lot's of pro's use different clubs in their bag, such as Donald and Harrington. If Miura wedges were so much better, they'd just use them, they wouldn't need to disguise them as something they weren't.

Donald doesn't try to disguise his TM driver as a Mizuno one, nor does Harrington try to pretend his is a Wilson.

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Post by SmithersJones on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:26 am

IIRC Nike had to let 9C continue to use some of his Titleist clubs when he first signed with them, until they'd had a chance to work with him to produce irons and eventually a putter that he was happy with. I don't believe they stamped them with the swoosh.
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:27 am

Nike make golf clubs no?

I'm not saying the Miura stuff is true, I only raised them to get an opinion.
But to say companies who have massive financial clout can and do always produce products as good as smaller companies is just not true. If the Miura thing isn't true, and I've no idea, it definitely isn't because it's impossible for them to make better clubs than Nike or Titleist
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:33 am

MustPuttBetter wrote:Nike make golf clubs no?

I'm not saying the Miura stuff is true, I only raised them to get an opinion.
But to say companies who have massive financial clout can and do always produce products as good as smaller companies is just not true. If the Miura thing isn't true, and I've no idea, it definitely isn't because it's impossible for them to make better clubs than Nike or Titleist

I'm not saying that either, but to say that the likes of Miura have some sort of alchemical secret that makes their wedges better than anyone else is capable of making (if they wanted to) is complete poppyc0ck, just as ridiculous as saying that pro's use Miura because they prefer them but try to hide them as something else.

I can understand people have preferences in their clubs, but it's assinine to suggest (whoever did) that Miura have all the characteristics for all pro's.

It's like saying everyones favourite choc is a Mars Bar.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:38 am

That stance just isn't one that can be supported by anything.
It's like saying the place down the road from me can't possibly produce better pizza than Dominos and people couldn't possibly prefer them. What do they have an alchemical secret that makes their recipe better....
Nonsense
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:41 am

No one suggested that Miura have all the characteristics for all pro's?! Where has that been said?

I don't even know what the Mars bar thing is about. Surely, as Mars have massive financial clout, they must be able to produce better chocolate than anyone else?!
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:41 am

Sounds like we might be in agreement but from slightly different stances.

I don't think there is such a thing as the "best" club, it's what works best for you, that will never come from one manufacturer, and I also think it's stupid to think any pro uses a club re-stamped as something else, I'm also not saying that the biggest companies produce the finest goods, demonstrably that isn't true, but it doesn't mean they wouldn't be capable of producing a wedge that PERFORMS as well, whether it's got the finish quality of a Miura is an irrelevance.


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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:44 am

I never said there was a best club. And I've also not said the Miura rumour is true. I've no idea. I just don't think it's inconceivable that they might make quality clubs that some pros prefer. And I don't think it's inconceivable that the manufacturer might accept that and brand them up accordingly for the reasons I mentioned earlier
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:46 am


I'm sure there are lots of things you can buy that other players prefer, but it's why companies take advice from players when developing clubs, in order that they might make clubs they want to use.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:47 am

Never been disputed
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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 11:50 am

I know it wasn't you MPB, but it has been mooted that lots of players simply have Miura clubs labelled as something else. Never seen any evidence or can't think of any reason why this would be necessary.

That's it.

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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:01 pm

I've seen no evidence either (apart from an odd Luke Donald picture for which could easily be other explanations), but I don't think it's an impossible or an absurd situation to have occurred.

Whether it actually has or not we will probably never know. Maybe we should agree to slightly disagree
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Post by McLaren on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:25 pm

mpb

Where could i find that pic?
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Post by MustPuttBetter on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:34 pm

Unfortunately not Mac

I saw it in a magazine article. I've already looked online as wanted to post a copy of it here but couldn't find it anywhere
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Post by gw on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:52 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Wedges are all about feel and so can be a very personal thing
I know its a cliche but there's your answer, what other people like is irrelevant, go and try them all out and find what's best for you.

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Post by raycastleunited on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:08 pm

Goldie - of course you're right, and it's what I'm doing. But if I did exactly that we wouldn't have a discussion forum!

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Post by gw on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:26 pm

Good stuff Ray.....I always liked to have matching manufacturers for my wedges to the irons for some reason, probably my OCD coming out!!

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Post by raycastleunited on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:17 pm

Although it is possible, it strikes me as a bit odd that a club made by one manufacturer would be branded with another.

Say Rory wanted to use a Miura wedge, surely Miura would be very happy with this and want the brand exposure. Nike would have to pay Miura a huge amount of cash to make it worth their while.

On the other hand, Super's point that Nike have a lot of resources at their disposal and could make a specialist hand crafted wedge themselves is true. However they choose not to because there is more profit in mass production. But in the fake branding scenario Nike choose to pay Muira to make high quality wedges for them instead of using their own resources.

OK lots of manufacturers outsource production to specialists but this isn't really typical to the extent that it is the entire product and a branded good. Just seems unlikely.

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Post by raycastleunited on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:20 pm

gw wrote:Good stuff Ray.....I always liked to have matching manufacturers for my wedges to the irons for some reason, probably my OCD coming out!!

Me too. Which is why I'm getting Mizuno wedges. When you look at their classic shaped wedges, I really don't see there being much difference between Vokey, Mizuno, Cleveland etc

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Post by super_realist on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:22 pm

raycastleunited wrote:Although it is possible, it strikes me as a bit odd that a club made by one manufacturer would be branded with another.

Say Rory wanted to use a Miura wedge, surely Miura would be very happy with this and want the brand exposure. Nike would have to pay Miura a huge amount of cash to make it worth their while.

On the other hand, Super's point that Nike have a lot of resources at their disposal and could make a specialist hand crafted wedge themselves is true. However they choose not to because there is more profit in mass production. But in the fake branding scenario Nike choose to pay Muira to make high quality wedges for them instead of using their own resources.

OK lots of manufacturers outsource production to specialists but this isn't really typical to the extent that it is the entire product and a branded good. Just seems unlikely.

Indeed Ray, my point was that Nike (or any manufacturer) could produce standard off the shelf wedges for Joe Public to maximise profit, but still have the technical know how to produce low volume/higher quality clubs capable of matching the alleged performance and feel of Miura for their staff players. One thing is for sure, Pubehead and 9C can't influence Miura on club design, but they certainly could have an input to Nike.


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Post by navyblueshorts on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 3:53 pm

Woah! Moved on a bit.

Another interesting titbit is Vokeys are cast and yet they're still out front in terms of Tour usage. I'd be willing to bet a lot that if one took a Miura wedge head with no distinguishing markings and an identical, cast copy in a similar mild steel, no-one could tell the difference. 90+% of what we interpret as 'feel' is sound vibration. The vibration frequencies that travel up the shaft and aren't sound won't enable anyone to distinguish a forged head from a cast one.
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Post by McLaren on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 4:59 pm

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=anpejfXY9Qyc
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Post by raycastleunited on Mon 14 Sep 2015, 7:03 pm

McLaren wrote:http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=anpejfXY9Qyc

haha that's quite funny.

Tiger probably had no idea his Titleist irons were made by Miura.

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