Yes 53% - No 44% ....Can Sturgeon take advantage and gain independence for Scotland ??

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 on Wed 02 Sep 2015, 3:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

Amazing polling figures from Ipsos-Mori (Poller was closest to the result in 2014)....Show a big 9% lead for those that want independence....

All time high !!!!

The question is how does Sturgeon manipulate another vote sooner rather than later to take advantage ??

Let's be honest this SNP bubble won't last !!!!!...........

Much food for thought for the little ball-breaker and her army..............

These figures must be both uplifting and depressing at the same time !!!.

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Post by SecretFly on Mon 21 Sep 2015, 11:44 pm

Duty281 wrote:

Want to nationalise your railways, for instance? Tough, the EU won't allow it.


Doesn't Labour in England think differently? They could and they would - bit by bit?

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 1:21 am

It does change things though. SNP's mandate is to get independence. It is the reason the party was set up. Once that goal is achieved the party will be disbanded so once it has been disbanded it will be up to the new government how they want to take things forward. The things you speak of would be short-term as whatever government is elected it would be their choice to take things forward.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 9:45 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:Hmm nationalism is an ideal as unionism is. One offers a country the chance to run its own country by people of its own nationality. The other offers being ruled from outwith it's borders by a government not with a wholly vested interest in Scotland and passing policies detrimental to Scotland whether they want them or not.


Which are those??

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 9:46 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:In that case then we would still be no worse off as UK is part of the European Union anyway. One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots whereas at the moment we are governed by a parliament three hundred miles away with their own agenda.

From Scotland, but round the corner from where you live??!!

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 9:54 am

SecretFly wrote:
Duty281 wrote:

Want to nationalise your railways, for instance? Tough, the EU won't allow it.


Doesn't Labour in England think differently?  They could and they would - bit by bit?

I think what Corbs is actually suggesting is a 'soft' nationalisation. At the moment the train services (not the railways, which are still public) are run by private enterprises on long term contracts. Corbs is talking about letting those expire/unravel and reincorporating into public service ad hoc over time.

And I'm not sure how/why the EU could put a stop to this given that major rail operators in the largest Eurozone countries are all whole, part of majority state owned anyway. SNCF, Thalys, NMBS/SNCB, Eurostar, Deutsche Bahn - all examples.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 2:59 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:In that case then we would still be no worse off as UK is part of the European Union anyway. One difference is Scotland would be governed by Scots whereas at the moment we are governed by a parliament three hundred miles away with their own agenda.

From Scotland, but round the corner from where you live??!!

Don't worry I will be returning to my homeland as soon as I can arrange it with work - no offence to London but Edinburgh is my home and where my heart is. But don't see your point. Look at the 750,000 English who live in Scotland but got the chance to vote no.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 3:56 pm

Did they?

I thought the vote was only open to Scots...??

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 4:25 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Did they?

I thought the vote was only open to Scots...??

Yes everyone in Scotland got the vote. If it was natural born Scots that had only got to vote then the yes vote would have won but hey-ho.
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Post by GSC on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 4:46 pm

Id place greater emphasis on people who live there and will be affected by the outcome than people who come from there and live elsewhere, who will unaffected.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 4:50 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Did they?

I thought the vote was only open to Scots...??

Yes everyone in Scotland got the vote. If it was natural born Scots that had only got to vote then the yes vote would have won but hey-ho.

Debatable. I spoke to hardly any that voted yes. Seemed to be mainly the preserve of the knuckle-draggers or misty-eyed old boys who it'd make no difference to now anyway.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:14 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Did they?

I thought the vote was only open to Scots...??

Yes everyone in Scotland got the vote. If it was natural born Scots that had only got to vote then the yes vote would have won but hey-ho.

Debatable.  I spoke to hardly any that voted yes.  Seemed to be mainly the preserve of the knuckle-draggers or misty-eyed old boys who it'd make no difference to now anyway.

Sorry but that is fact. The figures have been released.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:21 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Did they?

I thought the vote was only open to Scots...??

Yes everyone in Scotland got the vote. If it was natural born Scots that had only got to vote then the yes vote would have won but hey-ho.

Debatable.  I spoke to hardly any that voted yes.  Seemed to be mainly the preserve of the knuckle-draggers or misty-eyed old boys who it'd make no difference to now anyway.

Sorry but that is fact. The figures have been released.

Great, please provide them.

I was pretty sure voting was anonymous, therefore you didn't have to provide proof of place of birth and current residential address (let alone have that recorded alongside your vote).

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:23 pm

Here you go:-

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/independence-referendum-figures-revealed-majority-5408163

Will endeavour to find you more stats for you from other sources if you wish but they all point in the same direction.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:40 pm

That's applying findings from a sample set to a population and extrapolating the results. It does not confirm what you are saying, which is impossible to do, hence the tone of mocking sarcasm I thought I'd written my post in.

I trust the job you're looking for to bring you home to Edinburgh doesn't require a rudimentary knowledge of statistics.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:50 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:That's applying findings from a sample set to a population and extrapolating the results. It does not confirm what you are saying, which is impossible to do, hence the tone of mocking sarcasm I thought I'd written my post in.

I trust the job you're looking for to bring you home to Edinburgh doesn't require a rudimentary knowledge of statistics.

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/voted-yes-voted/

More on it there as well. By YouGov and if errors there they are by miniscule amount.

I suggest if you refute those statistics (which are so one-sided) then you are lying to yourself. I'd understand your scepticism of the figures it it were much closer figures but it isn't even close. If you wish to contest these figures then feel free to find sources that suggest otherwise but you won't be able to as they are as near to the facts you will get.


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Post by Duty281 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 5:59 pm

That link says 49% of people born in Scotland voted 'yes'.

"Finally, according to YouGov only 26% of those who were born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland voted Yes, little more than half the equivalent figure (49%) amongst those born in Scotland."

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Post by Duty281 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:08 pm

What do you mean by 'errors'? It says 49%.

That is not 'so one-sided', even taking into consideration a possible margin of error (which could swing either way).


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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:09 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:That's applying findings from a sample set to a population and extrapolating the results. It does not confirm what you are saying, which is impossible to do, hence the tone of mocking sarcasm I thought I'd written my post in.

I trust the job you're looking for to bring you home to Edinburgh doesn't require a rudimentary knowledge of statistics.

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/voted-yes-voted/

More on it there as well. By YouGov and if errors there they are by miniscule amount.

I suggest if you refute those statistics (which are so one-sided) then you are lying to yourself. I'd understand your scepticism of the figures it it were much closer figures but it isn't even close. If you wish to contest these figures then feel free to find sources that suggest otherwise but you won't be able to as they are as near to the facts you will get.

SAMPLE SET vs POPULATION.

Google it.

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:14 pm

Duty281 wrote:That link says 49% of people born in Scotland voted 'yes'.

"Finally, according to YouGov only 26% of those who were born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland voted Yes, little more than half the equivalent figure (49%) amongst those born in Scotland."

Yes there is but others say it is other way of 51 or 52% voted yes. Again though as I say these are miniscule figures either way.

The pattern is interesting.

The older the voter the more no voters there were. That can be interpreted in a few ways such as they have lived a long life in the union and had become comfortable with it and were too frightened of change late in life.

Also massive no voters were those born in England, Wales and Northern Ireland living in Scotland. Surely, their loyalties to their fellow union countries place of birth swayed them in a big way. They probably feared borders etc and alienating themselves from their place of birth.

To a lesser degree of it no voters (amongst foreigners outwith the UK) voted no but at a smaller majority.

Those that voted yes by the bigger amount was the younger population and in areas of higher unemployment whereas no voters lived in the posher areas more occupied by management and higher grade workers who perhaps were frightened by the talk of banks etc pulling out of Scotland if a yes vote was made (the same trick I see now being employed in the EU referendum down in England).


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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:18 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:That's applying findings from a sample set to a population and extrapolating the results. It does not confirm what you are saying, which is impossible to do, hence the tone of mocking sarcasm I thought I'd written my post in.

I trust the job you're looking for to bring you home to Edinburgh doesn't require a rudimentary knowledge of statistics.

http://blog.whatscotlandthinks.org/2014/09/voted-yes-voted/

More on it there as well. By YouGov and if errors there they are by miniscule amount.

I suggest if you refute those statistics (which are so one-sided) then you are lying to yourself. I'd understand your scepticism of the figures it it were much closer figures but it isn't even close. If you wish to contest these figures then feel free to find sources that suggest otherwise but you won't be able to as they are as near to the facts you will get.

SAMPLE SET vs POPULATION.

Google it.

Yes all very well and get that but YouGov comes in with the same set of figures. Now YouGov may get polls wrong now and again but by, at the most, what? 5% - not enough to make any real difference to the end figures in this case.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:32 pm

Yes, YouGov has really covered itself in glory recently..... Rolling Eyes

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:36 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, YouGov has really covered itself in glory recently..... Rolling Eyes

Yes they can be in error but like I said by miniscule amounts ie 5%. Not enough to make a difference when the split was 74% to 26%.
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Post by GSC on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 6:55 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:
Duty281 wrote:That link says 49% of people born in Scotland voted 'yes'.

"Finally, according to YouGov only 26% of those who were born in England, Wales or Northern Ireland voted Yes, little more than half the equivalent figure (49%) amongst those born in Scotland."

Yes there is but others say it is other way of 51 or 52% voted yes. Again though as I say these are miniscule figures either way.

The pattern is interesting.

The older the voter the more no voters there were. That can be interpreted in a few ways such as they have lived a long life in the union and had become comfortable with it and were too frightened of change late in life.

Another way of interpreting it is the wiser and more learned people actually looked at the arguments presented and came to the conclusion that no was a more rational choice.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:02 pm

GSC wrote:

Another way of interpreting it is the wiser and more learned people actually looked at the arguments presented and came to the conclusion that no was a more rational choice.

It could but I know of relatives who are staunch unionists and royalists who feared losing stuff precious to them - material stuff.

One thing the figures do suggest is that unless the younger generation are re-educated or go through a swift change of heart the yes voice is not going to go away. The only way that younger generation will be swayed to change their mind is for Westminster to change tact massively and take more interest in Scottish matters which won't happen.
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Post by GSC on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:06 pm

I know of relatives who frankly thought (and think) the SNP are full of it.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:10 pm

GSC wrote:I know of relatives who frankly thought (and think) the SNP are full of it.

Of course. But likewise the younger generation see it the same way for the Labour and Conservative parties. That is something Scottish Labour and Scottish Conservative parties have got to address. Start displaying a common interest more in Scottish matters rather than towing the line for Westminster issues.
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Post by GSC on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:18 pm

Younger people in general need to be more engaged regardless of location. Its a never ending cycle, young people don't vote because they don't feel engaged, politicians don't cater to young people because they don't vote.

Its an issue that isn't exclusive to Scotland's youth, and it isn't one that will likely to be resolved through a yes vote. A new Scottish government is still going to cater to those who vote in the end.
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Tue 22 Sep 2015, 7:28 pm

GSC wrote:Younger people in general need to be more engaged regardless of location. Its a never ending cycle, young people don't vote because they don't feel engaged, politicians don't cater to young people because they don't vote.

Its an issue that isn't exclusive to Scotland's youth, and it isn't one that will likely to be resolved through a yes vote. A new Scottish government is still going to cater to those who vote in the end.

The point is though that the younger generation are more vehemently for independence so that alone suggests the question isn't going to go away. Also I see England beginning to go through the same change in political landscape though it is at a more embryonic stage. UKIP are throttling Labour and Conservative vote shares and I can only see that trend continuing to grow as, again the Labour and Conservative parties are seeing people losing faith in them. People are fed up being led into phony wars on lies and corruption within those parties that have been evident in recent years. All of those issues and more are disenchanting many.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 9:26 am

CaledonianCraig wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:Yes, YouGov has really covered itself in glory recently..... Rolling Eyes

Yes they can be in error but like I said by miniscule amounts ie 5%. Not enough to make a difference when the split was 74% to 26%.

YouGov had Lab and Cons level pegging in their last full poll one week before GE2015. 34:34

Assuming that was popular vote share, they were miles off the final result of 37% and 30% respectively (again, note Stats101 - a percentage point is different to a percent). The total swing between predicted (even) and actual was closer to 20%.

YouGov also had the referendum 51% yes 49% no just before the vote which ended up 44% to 55% which is actually a massive difference. Not even close.

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Post by ShahenshahG on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 10:32 am

Plus with ashcroft being at the helm how much of it was to give cameron the sh*ts? Very Happy

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 10:54 am

I don't get this. They had the fecking vote and they said NO.

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Post by GSC on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 10:57 am

Yes Sean but that was rigged by businesses unfairly pointing out some of the potential negative outcomes of voting yes.
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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:06 am

GSC wrote:Yes Sean but that was rigged by businesses unfairly pointing out some of the potential negative outcomes of voting yes.

How is that rigged? Surely in making one's vote one considers the consequences of such a decision?

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:12 am

seanmichaels wrote:
GSC wrote:Yes Sean but that was rigged by businesses unfairly pointing out some of the potential negative outcomes of voting yes.

How is that rigged? Surely in making one's vote one considers the consequences of such a decision?

GSC was being sarcastic.

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:15 am

Oh.

I reckon we jettison them anyway. Put Trident in Wales and direct the oil pipes to Newcastle instead of Aberdeen.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:20 am

seanmichaels wrote:
GSC wrote:Yes Sean but that was rigged by businesses unfairly pointing out some of the potential negative outcomes of voting yes.

How is that rigged? Surely in making one's vote one considers the consequences of such a decision?

You'd be surprised by the lack of thought and consideration.

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Post by seanmichaels on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 11:56 am

I wonder if Cameron will shut them down like Maggie did with the Welsh?

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Post by SecretFly on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 12:38 pm

seanmichaels wrote:Oh.

I reckon we jettison them anyway. Put Trident in Wales and direct the oil pipes to Newcastle instead of Aberdeen.

New Independent Scotland blows up pipeline coming from their territory directed to Newcastle and reconnects to Aberdeen....

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Post by GSC on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 12:47 pm

Pull a Putin and annex Scotland
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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:11 pm

I really do love these sort of posts above and the clear BS by those saying Scotland couldn't sustain itself.  If that were the case then why all the effort by the no campaign -many of whom were English. After all a divorce is better for them if Scotland really is a drain on spending etc unless of course their efforts were out of fear of knowing what they were losing.

And sorry but the financial and economic issues just do not wash with me. Look at Malta. They went it alone after the turmoil of World War Two in a far harder climate financially and with far less resources and economics to sustain itself but they have done well enough for themselves.

In the dying days of the campaign a crucial and far from morally right or correct step was made by the no campaign by Gordon Brown. A poll had just put yes vote ahead and he came out with desperate pleas with promises of sweeteners if a no vote was past that was skin to devo-max. Now when the referendum was passed there were types of questions that were to be included and one was said to be about offering devo-max but that was turned down to concentrate on straight independence. However, Brown at the last moment in the campaign tried turning it into a devo-max issue with his promises (not yet met in any case).

As for this talk of that you have had your chance etc I would certainly agree if the vote had been far more conclusive such as 75% voting no. It was not. It was a mere 5% or thereabouts. A hung parliament sort of figure if this were an election. It is like in boxing. If a boxer loses to another convincingly in an early round knockout then you never have calls for a rematch. However, a closer such fight going down to a narrow decision is different and quite often there are calls for a rematch and is granted.

Like I said the question is certainly not going to go away in the current political landscape however much people want it to happen. And with Westminster PM's  having sex with pigs etc it only heightens people's disdain. Especially, when it is added to other Westminster government faux pas on a grand scale over the last two decades.
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Post by Duty281 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:24 pm

2 things about your post, CC:

1) The economic arguments put forward by the SNP were weak. As has been mentioned, the SNP grossly exaggerated the revenues they would gain from oil in the event of independence; something you could say was far from morally right or correct.

With oil prices plunging, the forecasts of the SNP look even weaker now. The Office of Budget Responsibility estimate that the SNP exaggerated the potential revenues from oil by thirteen times the correct amount.

2) The margin of victory required was a simple majority. That was agreed by both sides; it did not need to be an emphatic margin such as 75%. I'm sure you wouldn't have minded if 'yes' had carried the vote by 51-49%.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:34 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I really do love these sort of posts above and the clear BS by those saying Scotland couldn't sustain itself.  If that were the case then why all the effort by the no campaign -many of whom were English. After all a divorce is better for them if Scotland really is a drain on spending etc unless of course their efforts were out of fear of knowing what they were losing.

And sorry but the financial and economic issues just do not wash with me. Look at Malta. They went it alone after the turmoil of World War Two in a far harder climate financially and with far less resources and economics to sustain itself but they have done well enough for themselves.

In the dying days of the campaign a crucial and far from morally right or correct step was made by the no campaign by Gordon Brown. A poll had just put yes vote ahead and he came out with desperate pleas with promises of sweeteners if a no vote was past that was skin to devo-max. Now when the referendum was passed there were types of questions that were to be included and one was said to be about offering devo-max but that was turned down to concentrate on straight independence. However, Brown at the last moment in the campaign tried turning it into a devo-max issue with his promises (not yet met in any case).

As for this talk of that you have had your chance etc I would certainly agree if the vote had been far more conclusive such as 75% voting no. It was not. It was a mere 5% or thereabouts. A hung parliament sort of figure if this were an election. It is like in boxing. If a boxer loses to another convincingly in an early round knockout then you never have calls for a rematch. However, a closer such fight going down to a narrow decision is different and quite often there are calls for a rematch and is granted.

Like I said the question is certainly not going to go away in the current political landscape however much people want it to happen. And with Westminster PM's  having sex with pigs etc it only heightens people's disdain. Especially, when it is added to other Westminster government faux pas on a grand scale over the last two decades.

Jesus wept.... Rolling Eyes

Total Yes votes - 1,617,989
Total No votes - 2,001,926

Number more No votes than Yes votes - 383,937
Percentage more No votes than Yes votes - 24%


Last edited by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:42 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I really do love these sort of posts above and the clear BS by those saying Scotland couldn't sustain itself.  If that were the case then why all the effort by the no campaign -many of whom were English. After all a divorce is better for them if Scotland really is a drain on spending etc unless of course their efforts were out of fear of knowing what they were losing.

And sorry but the financial and economic issues just do not wash with me. Look at Malta. They went it alone after the turmoil of World War Two in a far harder climate financially and with far less resources and economics to sustain itself but they have done well enough for themselves.

In the dying days of the campaign a crucial and far from morally right or correct step was made by the no campaign by Gordon Brown. A poll had just put yes vote ahead and he came out with desperate pleas with promises of sweeteners if a no vote was past that was skin to devo-max. Now when the referendum was passed there were types of questions that were to be included and one was said to be about offering devo-max but that was turned down to concentrate on straight independence. However, Brown at the last moment in the campaign tried turning it into a devo-max issue with his promises (not yet met in any case).

As for this talk of that you have had your chance etc I would certainly agree if the vote had been far more conclusive such as 75% voting no. It was not. It was a mere 5% or thereabouts. A hung parliament sort of figure if this were an election. It is like in boxing. If a boxer loses to another convincingly in an early round knockout then you never have calls for a rematch. However, a closer such fight going down to a narrow decision is different and quite often there are calls for a rematch and is granted.

Like I said the question is certainly not going to go away in the current political landscape however much people want it to happen. And with Westminster PM's  having sex with pigs etc it only heightens people's disdain. Especially, when it is added to other Westminster government faux pas on a grand scale over the last two decades.

Jesus wept.... Rolling Eyes

As I've said on other threads Toppy, either respond to the points made and engage in debate, or shut up.

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Post by superflyweight on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 2:58 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I really do love these sort of posts above and the clear BS by those saying Scotland couldn't sustain itself.  If that were the case then why all the effort by the no campaign -many of whom were English. After all a divorce is better for them if Scotland really is a drain on spending etc unless of course their efforts were out of fear of knowing what they were losing.

And sorry but the financial and economic issues just do not wash with me. Look at Malta. They went it alone after the turmoil of World War Two in a far harder climate financially and with far less resources and economics to sustain itself but they have done well enough for themselves.

In the dying days of the campaign a crucial and far from morally right or correct step was made by the no campaign by Gordon Brown. A poll had just put yes vote ahead and he came out with desperate pleas with promises of sweeteners if a no vote was past that was skin to devo-max. Now when the referendum was passed there were types of questions that were to be included and one was said to be about offering devo-max but that was turned down to concentrate on straight independence. However, Brown at the last moment in the campaign tried turning it into a devo-max issue with his promises (not yet met in any case).

As for this talk of that you have had your chance etc I would certainly agree if the vote had been far more conclusive such as 75% voting no. It was not. It was a mere 5% or thereabouts. A hung parliament sort of figure if this were an election. It is like in boxing. If a boxer loses to another convincingly in an early round knockout then you never have calls for a rematch. However, a closer such fight going down to a narrow decision is different and quite often there are calls for a rematch and is granted.

Like I said the question is certainly not going to go away in the current political landscape however much people want it to happen. And with Westminster PM's  having sex with pigs etc it only heightens people's disdain. Especially, when it is added to other Westminster government faux pas on a grand scale over the last two decades.

Do you know what parts of the "Vow" have not actually been delivered or which are not in the process of being delivered. It's worth looking up as the SNP have produced a list and it's pretty short and pretty trivial.

In any event, I don't know anyone who was swayed by the Vow and everyone I've spoke to had made up their mind long before it was made. The poll that put Yes ahead was an anomaly and the result was pretty consistent with most sensible predictions.

Contrary to Salmond's p1sh, the Vow did not change the result and failure to deliver on some immaterial parts of the Vow is not a "trigger" for another referendum. If you held the vote again next week, the result would be very similar (but with a lower turnout).

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:06 pm

Well you say you don't know of anyone swayed by the vow but polls released recently suggest those swayed by the vows (in majority) would now vote yes if given the chance. Vows that should never have been allowed to cloudy the waters however you look at it. The vote was on independence NOT devo-max.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:09 pm

Pr4wn wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
CaledonianCraig wrote:I really do love these sort of posts above and the clear BS by those saying Scotland couldn't sustain itself.  If that were the case then why all the effort by the no campaign -many of whom were English. After all a divorce is better for them if Scotland really is a drain on spending etc unless of course their efforts were out of fear of knowing what they were losing.

And sorry but the financial and economic issues just do not wash with me. Look at Malta. They went it alone after the turmoil of World War Two in a far harder climate financially and with far less resources and economics to sustain itself but they have done well enough for themselves.

In the dying days of the campaign a crucial and far from morally right or correct step was made by the no campaign by Gordon Brown. A poll had just put yes vote ahead and he came out with desperate pleas with promises of sweeteners if a no vote was past that was skin to devo-max. Now when the referendum was passed there were types of questions that were to be included and one was said to be about offering devo-max but that was turned down to concentrate on straight independence. However, Brown at the last moment in the campaign tried turning it into a devo-max issue with his promises (not yet met in any case).

As for this talk of that you have had your chance etc I would certainly agree if the vote had been far more conclusive such as 75% voting no. It was not. It was a mere 5% or thereabouts. A hung parliament sort of figure if this were an election. It is like in boxing. If a boxer loses to another convincingly in an early round knockout then you never have calls for a rematch. However, a closer such fight going down to a narrow decision is different and quite often there are calls for a rematch and is granted.

Like I said the question is certainly not going to go away in the current political landscape however much people want it to happen. And with Westminster PM's  having sex with pigs etc it only heightens people's disdain. Especially, when it is added to other Westminster government faux pas on a grand scale over the last two decades.

Jesus wept.... Rolling Eyes

As I've said on other threads Toppy, either respond to the points made and engage in debate, or shut up.

Classic even handed moddding........ Rolling Eyes

Will explain my response further then.

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Post by Pr4wn on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:31 pm

Thanks, that's all I'm asking. And it is even-handed. CC provided an argument, you should offer your rebuttal, that's how this works. Others have argued their points since, so be a big boy.

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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:36 pm

don't treat me like a woman
dont treat me like a man
dont treat me like you know me


Last edited by Dolphin Ziggler on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 7:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Daft posts get edited)

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Post by CaledonianCraig on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:45 pm

Actually I have made my points and you have made yours. In your opinion my view is nonsense but that doesn't make it so. Or else do you deny a vow was made by Brown when it had no place whatsoever in the campaign? Do you deny that the question of independence will merely fade away? Do you deny that a 55-45 split is such a narrow majority that it is an unequivocal no especially when support is swelling and not falling.
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Post by TopHat24/7 on Wed 23 Sep 2015, 3:47 pm

You inability to understand basic statistical concepts is not an opinion, it is a matter of fact.

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